Select Bus Service Discussion Thread

[Via Garibaldi 8]

And I didn't say had to change. On frequent routes with heavy ridership at each stop like the M86 & M79, yeah, off-board fare payment makes sense. But it doesn't make sense systemwide. Imagine the costs of trying to put SBS machines at every little stop on the B4, and then people watch the bus pull off while they fumble for their receipt and the next one is 20-30 minutes away. One or two people getting on and dipping their MetroCard doesn't take too much time. It's when you have say, 15-20 people at each stop along the route (not just at a few like say, on the S98 or something) where you see the benefits.

I have no idea why you're talking about it being implemented system wide.  No one said anything of the sort... 

[BrooklynBus]

.

 

Maybe you can write a program that optimizes the routes based on major ridership generators and origin-destination surveys (both on existing routes and from potential riders) and service gaps and so on, but you do need a human element overseeing it that's familiar with the area and the needs of its transit users and potential transit users....

 

You look at it neighborhood by neighborhood. You look for the gaps, you look for the indirect routes, you look for the neighborhoods that have seen new development, etc and you go neighborhood by neighborhood and put together pieces of the puzzle. 

 

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You are correct about both points. That's how you need to plan and you do need the human element. But Operations Planning doesn't have planners who are familiar with the neighborhoods they are planning for and are too arrogant to listen to those who are familiar with the neighborhoods. The data doesn't give you the answers on how to plan. Also, they have no desire to improve connectivity between neighborhoods. The emphasis is on cutting service, not adding service. If positive changes are made, it is only because of political pressure.

 

When I was in Operations Planning in 1981 and 1982 and in charge of the Brooklyn borough wide study, the person in charge of the Manhattan study which was ongoing at the same time came over to me and asked me if I could provide him with a set of route changes to propose since I knew buses. He looked at the data he collected and didn't have the slightest idea what route changes he should propose. He expected me to do his job as well as my own. I told him where to go.

[B35 via Church]

I have no idea why you're talking about it being implemented system wide.  No one said anything of the sort... 

Lol.... For POP to be implemented system-wide, a hell of a lot of stops are going to have to be eliminated....

 

While I do think in the unforeseeable future, there's going to be a slew of SBS routes encapsulated in this city's bus network, I would like to see how far the MTA would eventually go in eliminating intermediate/local/whatever you wanna call them, stops.....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Lol.... For POP to be implemented system-wide, a hell of a lot of stops are going to have to be eliminated....

 

While I do think in the unforeseeable future, there's going to be a slew of SBS routes encapsulated in this city's bus network, I would like to see how far the MTA would eventually go in eliminating intermediate/local/whatever you wanna call them, stops.....

I think unless you tackle congestion (which continues to be the elephant in the room), you're going to see big changes in terms of how bus service is run.  They're already changing the spans and frequencies where they can.  If it keeps taking longer and longer to do trips, I would have to think that the starts to look at eliminating as many stops as possible to "speed up service", which is really a cost cutting measure more than anything, but they'll call it a way to improve service and reliability.  Eliminating stops is the easiest solution.

[bobtehpanda]

Eliminating stops is the easiest solution.

 

To add to this, if the MTA were to do this, they would do best at eliminating stops in areas with severe traffic congestion. For example, in Flushing there is no particular reason that bus stops should be only 600 ft apart when the additional penalty for yet another stop to pull in and out of traffic for is so high.

[RailRunRob]

.

 

You are correct about both points. That's how you need to plan and you do need the human element. But Operations Planning doesn't have planners who are familiar with the neighborhoods they are planning for and are too arrogant to listen to those who are familiar with the neighborhoods. The data doesn't give you the answers on how to plan. Also, they have no desire to improve connectivity between neighborhoods. The emphasis is on cutting service, not adding service. If positive changes are made, it is only because of political pressure.

 

When I was in Operations Planning in 1981 and 1982 and in charge of the Brooklyn borough wide study, the person in charge of the Manhattan study which was ongoing at the same time came over to me and asked me if I could provide him with a set of route changes to propose since I knew buses. He looked at the data he collected and didn't have the slightest idea what route changes he should propose. He expected me to do his job as well as my own. I told him where to go.

. Indeed feedback is super important it’s really the only way to be agile it’s really is a shame that they are not listening to drivers the eyes and ears of the system definitely missed opportunity. Technology is a enhancer an amplifier it allows me to pull information from multiple places and allows me to parse information in muti dimensions. It expands my capability allows me to break free of my biological limitations but it’s never a replacement for Human interactions and EQ. There’s so many possibilities with data streams new buses have cameras may sound creepy to some but it wouldn’t be hard to compute rider numbers via camera streams and face tracking, Tap to pay and all the possibilities there. Wifi peoples phones are set to search for networks by default I have opportunities there to MAC address . We could even track peoples phones pinging cell towers mid air and the 5G technologies millimeter waves and small cell forget about it. The point to this charade is don’t be afraid to technology is A vessel vehicle not a replacement.

 

 

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Edited June 28, 2017 by RailRunRob

[B35 via Church]

I think unless you tackle congestion (which continues to be the elephant in the room), you're going to see big changes in terms of how bus service is run.  They're already changing the spans and frequencies where they can.  If it keeps taking longer and longer to do trips, I would have to think that the starts to look at eliminating as many stops as possible to "speed up service", which is really a cost cutting measure more than anything, but they'll call it a way to improve service and reliability.  Eliminating stops is the easiest solution.

One food for thought says they're helpless to tackle congestion.....

 

Another says, the more congested our roads become, the less bus service they will try to justify not providing (someone on here more or less has that stance, don't remember who.... but it isn't the first time I've heard/read it from someone)....

 

I'm at the dinner table with knife & fork in hand, that says MTA caused a lot of this congestion.... And the more of these schemes they continue to drum up & repackage as being beneficial, the more people you will see resorting to utilizing other services/modes or even, quite frankly, getting the f*** out of this city.... Declining quality of transportation won't be the main reason for leaving per se (although for the few, it actually is), but it can (and often does) end up being the straw that breaks the camel's back.....

 

People are tired.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

One food for thought says they're helpless to tackle congestion.....

 

Another says, the more congested our roads become, the less bus service they will try to justify not providing (someone on here more or less has that stance, don't remember who.... but it isn't the first time I've heard/read it from someone)....

 

I'm at the dinner table with knife & fork in hand, that says MTA caused a lot of this congestion.... And the more of these schemes they continue to drum up & repackage as being beneficial, the more people you will see resorting to utilizing other services/modes or even, quite frankly, getting the f*** out of this city.... Declining quality of transportation won't be the main reason for leaving per se (although for the few, it actually is), but it can (and often does) end up being the straw that breaks the camel's back.....

 

People are tired.

I've already heard people say on TV that they moved because they became sick of transportation issues here.  There's no question that I've had to adjust to this whole "shift".  To get anywhere without leaving earlier generally will require more money, with very few services being prompt anymore.  SBS is still up the air IMO. Better overall, but still can take a while to get to your destination, so leaving extra time is a must regardless.

[bobtehpanda]

One food for thought says they're helpless to tackle congestion.....

 

Another says, the more congested our roads become, the less bus service they will try to justify not providing (someone on here more or less has that stance, don't remember who.... but it isn't the first time I've heard/read it from someone)....

 

I'm at the dinner table with knife & fork in hand, that says MTA caused a lot of this congestion.... And the more of these schemes they continue to drum up & repackage as being beneficial, the more people you will see resorting to utilizing other services/modes or even, quite frankly, getting the f*** out of this city.... Declining quality of transportation won't be the main reason for leaving per se (although for the few, it actually is), but it can (and often does) end up being the straw that breaks the camel's back.....

 

People are tired.

 

The worst part is, once you leave you realize that NYC wasn't that bad. Sitting for two hours in freeway traffic is the norm all over the country and the rail networks, if they exist, rarely go anywhere at useful times. I can barely do two hour commutes on the MTA with a phone to distract me, how tf do those people do it?

I've already heard people say on TV that they moved because they became sick of transportation issues here.  There's no question that I've had to adjust to this whole "shift".  To get anywhere without leaving earlier generally will require more money, with very few services being prompt anymore.  SBS is still up the air IMO. Better overall, but still can take a while to get to your destination, so leaving extra time is a must regardless.

 

I don't know how true this is, but the advertised time for the subway in 1904 was 'City Hall to Harlem' in fifteen minutes, and the advertised time for the Q44 was originally 'Flushing to Jamaica in 15 minutes.'

 

I don't know how they achieved either of those times but I would kill for those runtimes these days.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The worst part is, once you leave you realize that NYC wasn't that bad. Sitting for two hours in freeway traffic is the norm all over the country and the rail networks, if they exist, rarely go anywhere at useful times. I can barely do two hour commutes on the MTA with a phone to distract me, how tf do those people do it?

 

I don't know how true this is, but the advertised time for the subway in 1904 was 'City Hall to Harlem' in fifteen minutes, and the advertised time for the Q44 was originally 'Flushing to Jamaica in 15 minutes.'

 

I don't know how they achieved either of those times but I would kill for those runtimes these days.

lol... Can't say I disagree with ya...

[East New York]

I second that! Lol

[MetroTransitTee]

Flushing to Jamaica in 15 minutes? I wish! During rush hour buses are sometimes stuck at Hillside Av and Sutphin Blvd for 15 minutes.

[Cait Sith]

Flushing to Jamaica in 15 minutes? I wish! During rush hour buses are sometimes stuck at Hillside Av and Sutphin Blvd for 15 minutes.

 

During the day, that wont ever happen. At night, however, it tends to happen.

[checkmatechamp13]

I don't know how true this is, but the advertised time for the subway in 1904 was 'City Hall to Harlem' in fifteen minutes, and the advertised time for the Q44 was originally 'Flushing to Jamaica in 15 minutes.'

 

I don't know how they achieved either of those times but I would kill for those runtimes these days.

 

On the inaugural run, the mayor basically floored the train through the route (instead of handing it over to the motorman after he turned the key), and that's how the train made it to 145th in 15 minutes (that's what, about 8-9 miles, so somewhere in the 30-40 mph range throughout the trip). It didn't factor in any stops, etc.

 

As for the Q44, if an overnight trip is scheduled for around 25 minutes, I guess if the bus is basically running nonstop with the B/O flooring it, it'll take around 15 minutes). 

[Cait Sith]

On the inaugural run, the mayor basically floored the train through the route (instead of handing it over to the motorman after he turned the key), and that's how the train made it to 145th in 15 minutes (that's what, about 8-9 miles, so somewhere in the 30-40 mph range throughout the trip). It didn't factor in any stops, etc.

 

As for the Q44, if an overnight trip is scheduled for around 25 minutes, I guess if the bus is basically running nonstop with the B/O flooring it, it'll take around 15 minutes). 

 

Not necessarily flooring it, but at night, it tends to skip the stops between The Horace Harding Expressway & Jewel Avenue if no one is getting on or off(sometimes Jewel gets skipped too). It makes a difference considering that the lights are a steady green.

 

The latest bus that I can attest to that I've taken from West Farms was the 11:24pm trip from the first stop. This was the last trip for the operator, and he was moving at a relatively quick pace, especially since the stops between West Farms and Parkchester were skipped, and the stops between Parkchester & Lafayette Avenue were also skipped along with a few stops in Flushing and Whitestone.

 

Needless to say, I've never gotten home so fast with the Q44 in my life.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Cait Sith

[bobtehpanda]

On the inaugural run, the mayor basically floored the train through the route (instead of handing it over to the motorman after he turned the key), and that's how the train made it to 145th in 15 minutes (that's what, about 8-9 miles, so somewhere in the 30-40 mph range throughout the trip). It didn't factor in any stops, etc.

 

I mean, this was IRT advertising, so it may very well have been embellished, but it was a real slogan at one point. Grounded in how much truth, I don't know.

Not necessarily flooring it, but at night, it tends to skip the stops between The Horace Harding Expressway & Jewel Avenue if no one is getting on or off(sometimes Jewel gets skipped too). It makes a difference considering that the lights are a steady green.

 

The latest bus that I can attest to that I've taken from West Farms was the 11:24pm trip from the first stop. This was the last trip for the operator, and he was moving at a relatively quick pace, especially since the stops between West Farms and Parkchester were skipped, and the stops between Parkchester & Lafayette Avenue were also skipped along with a few stops in Flushing and Whitestone.

 

Needless to say, I've never gotten home so fast with the Q44 in my life.

 

Doesn't the Q44 have TSP? Shouldn't those lights always kind of be a steady green?

 

On that note, they should really build an island bus stop for the Q44 at Hillside/Sutphin so that the bus doesn't have to hook a left from the right lane...

Edited June 30, 2017 by bobtehpanda

[BrooklynBus]

I think unless you tackle congestion (which continues to be the elephant in the room), you're going to see big changes in terms of how bus service is run.  They're already changing the spans and frequencies where they can.  If it keeps taking longer and longer to do trips, I would have to think that the starts to look at eliminating as many stops as possible to "speed up service", which is really a cost cutting measure more than anything, but they'll call it a way to improve service and reliability.  Eliminating stops is the easiest solution.

And of course the MTA will always take the easiest solution so they don't have to do real work.

[bobtehpanda]

And of course the MTA will always take the easiest solution so they don't have to do real work.

 

The MTA doesn't control city streets. How is it supposed to control congestion?

 

In fact this is the main problem as to why shit is so bad here; everyone is off running their own little silos. The MTA is supposed to be an integrated regional agency, but it's definitely not integrated, and it's anything but regional. MNR and LIRR can barely agree on cooperating (hence the what, 12B we've now sunk into ESA?), let alone with NJT. All the counties are off running their own little bus fiefs, usually into the ground (cough Nassau). The ferries don't even cooperate with each other, much less the MTA. And this is before we talk about the DOTs doing their own little thing in every town, city, and county in the region.

 

Europeans would be absolutely horrified by this mess. Transport for London unifies rails, boats, buses, taxis, cable cars, and the streets. The continental Europeans (French, Swiss, Spanish, Italians, Germans) have been doing it like this for generations. Traffic is not just the MTA's problem, so they themselves cannot solve it.

[RailRunRob]

The MTA doesn't control city streets. How is it supposed to control congestion?

 

In fact this is the main problem as to why shit is so bad here; everyone is off running their own little silos. The MTA is supposed to be an integrated regional agency, but it's definitely not integrated, and it's anything but regional. MNR and LIRR can barely agree on cooperating (hence the what, 12B we've now sunk into ESA?), let alone with NJT. All the counties are off running their own little bus fiefs, usually into the ground (cough Nassau). The ferries don't even cooperate with each other, much less the MTA. And this is before we talk about the DOTs doing their own little thing in every town, city, and county in the region.

 

Europeans would be absolutely horrified by this mess. Transport for London unifies rails, boats, buses, taxis, cable cars, and the streets. The continental Europeans (French, Swiss, Spanish, Italians, Germans) have been doing it like this for generations. Traffic is not just the MTA's problem, so they themselves cannot solve it.

Amen!

 

 

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[WestFarms36]

The MTA doesn't control city streets. How is it supposed to control congestion?

 

In fact this is the main problem as to why shit is so bad here; everyone is off running their own little silos. The MTA is supposed to be an integrated regional agency, but it's definitely not integrated, and it's anything but regional. MNR and LIRR can barely agree on cooperating (hence the what, 12B we've now sunk into ESA?), let alone with NJT. All the counties are off running their own little bus fiefs, usually into the ground (cough Nassau). The ferries don't even cooperate with each other, much less the MTA. And this is before we talk about the DOTs doing their own little thing in every town, city, and county in the region.

 

Europeans would be absolutely horrified by this mess. Transport for London unifies rails, boats, buses, taxis, cable cars, and the streets. The continental Europeans (French, Swiss, Spanish, Italians, Germans) have been doing it like this for generations. Traffic is not just the MTA's problem, so they themselves cannot solve it.

Nice Bus has been run down into the ground, the biggest mistake ever and the chances of MTA returning to Long Island for Bus service is not foreseeable at this point, Nice Bus will be the death of Nassau County public transportation and many people will face to the LIRR on jackloaded trains God forbid that ever happens, Nassau county never did it's job and if MTA were still there and I was county executive, I would unite Bus, rail, Ferry, and cab service into one. Nassau County decided to become an etcetera and screw up everything and turn a 100 Million rider system into Pure Horse Sh!t, Its sad but the truth, and I feel instead of Bill deBlasio flaming Cuomo on the news, they should both restructure the board into a universal transportation organization with local neighborhood, county, city, and state working together finding solutions than this 'Do your own sht' type of motto, and be unified, organized, and efficient delivering the transportation needs of the 21st Century.

[BrooklynBus]

The MTA doesn't control city streets. How is it supposed to control congestion?

 

In fact this is the main problem as to why shit is so bad here; everyone is off running their own little silos. The MTA is supposed to be an integrated regional agency, but it's definitely not integrated, and it's anything but regional. MNR and LIRR can barely agree on cooperating (hence the what, 12B we've now sunk into ESA?), let alone with NJT. All the counties are off running their own little bus fiefs, usually into the ground (cough Nassau). The ferries don't even cooperate with each other, much less the MTA. And this is before we talk about the DOTs doing their own little thing in every town, city, and county in the region.

 

Europeans would be absolutely horrified by this mess. Transport for London unifies rails, boats, buses, taxis, cable cars, and the streets. The continental Europeans (French, Swiss, Spanish, Italians, Germans) have been doing it like this for generations. Traffic is not just the MTA's problem, so they themselves cannot solve it.

I agree with you about the lack of regional coordination, but that doesn't let the MTA off the hook regarding congestion. Yes, they don't control the city streets but that doesn't mean there is nothing they can do to improve bus reliability. The MTA can't do anything about congestion resulting from an accident or construction which closes off multiple lanes. But what about severe congestion that occurs in the same spot everyday like around the Queensboro Bridge on Second Avenue? Why can't some northbound buses be scheduled to turn around at 57 Street so as not to impact service south of there. Or southbound buses turn around in the upper sixties?

 

I was once in my car on a Saturday night on Second Avenue stuck between like 68th and 69 Street for 45 minutes. So that should mean all bus service should stop? Why couldn't southbound buses turn around at 72 Street and northbound buses turn around at 57 Street or else be rerouted to Lexington to get around the heavy traffic?

 

I was on a bus in Brooklyn a few years ago and a fire truck was blocking the street. Instead of taking an alternate route, the bus driver decided to enter the block and just sit there for who knows how long until the fire was put out. So don't make it seem like the MTA is totally powerless just because they don't control the streets.

[bobtehpanda]

I agree with you about the lack of regional coordination, but that doesn't let the MTA off the hook regarding congestion. Yes, they don't control the city streets but that doesn't mean there is nothing they can do to improve bus reliability. The MTA can't do anything about congestion resulting from an accident or construction which closes off multiple lanes. But what about severe congestion that occurs in the same spot everyday like around the Queensboro Bridge on Second Avenue? Why can't some northbound buses be scheduled to turn around at 57 Street so as not to impact service south of there. Or southbound buses turn around in the upper sixties?

 

I was once in my car on a Saturday night on Second Avenue stuck between like 68th and 69 Street for 45 minutes. So that should mean all bus service should stop? Why couldn't southbound buses turn around at 72 Street and northbound buses turn around at 57 Street or else be rerouted to Lexington to get around the heavy traffic?

 

I was on a bus in Brooklyn a few years ago and a fire truck was blocking the street. Instead of taking an alternate route, the bus driver decided to enter the block and just sit there for who knows how long until the fire was put out. So don't make it seem like the MTA is totally powerless just because they don't control the streets.

 

There are several things going on here that make it not that easy.

 

1. Reroutes. If trains are rerouted unexpectedly, they have station staff and PA systems to inform people already on the platforms. No such infrastructure exists at every single bus stop, and assuming everyone is going to check an app or Twitter for a bus diversion they may not even be aware of is simply not realistic. Also, rerouting to the next avenue down the grid may not work, because odds are that every other driver is doing the exact same thing. When the LIE shuts down, every east-west highway on the Island becomes gridlock, so diverting is not even faster.

 

2. Short turns. If routes could just be split at major traffic headaches, then it would be done by now, but realistically speaking people through ride past major traffic all the time to get to their destinations, and on top of that traffic hotspots tend to have lots of riders waiting there as well. We already have posters complaining that current use of short turns strands people short or leaves people waiting for their correct bus all the time, and expanding the use of short turns in a systematic way would only lead to more frustration. What is the MTA going to tell the riders? Hoof it through 20 blocks because the bus is gonna get stuck in traffic?

Edited July 8, 2017 by bobtehpanda

[WestFarms36]

There are several things going on here that make it not that easy.

 

1. Reroutes. If trains are rerouted unexpectedly, they have station staff and PA systems to inform people already on the platforms. No such infrastructure exists at every single bus stop, and assuming everyone is going to check an app or Twitter for a bus diversion they may not even be aware of is simply not realistic. Also, rerouting to the next avenue down the grid may not work, because odds are that every other driver is doing the exact same thing. When the LIE shuts down, every east-west highway on the Island becomes gridlock, so diverting is not even faster.

 

2. Short turns. If routes could just be split at major traffic headaches, then it would be done by now, but realistically speaking people through ride past major traffic all the time to get to their destinations, and on top of that traffic hotspots tend to have lots of riders waiting there as well. We already have posters complaining that current use of short turns strands people short or leaves people waiting for their correct bus all the time, and expanding the use of short turns in a systematic way would only lead to more frustration. What is the MTA going to tell the riders? Hoof it through 20 blocks because the bus is gonna get stuck in traffic?

MTA does lack passenger information regarding detours, closures, short turns, service suspension, etc. MTA needs regional co-operation, BrooklynBus says multiple lanes of construction can cause delays, well in a Regional Coordination MTA would be able to work with the DOT on detours, or even regulating traffic patterns on city streets, and or providing alternative transportation, or Temporary LIMITED service routing via a detour to make up for lossed time, or even work with the DOT to adjust signal timing of add Transit Signal Priority at 'Delayed Green' signals or intersections with deep traffic saturation to mitigate the delays and also adjust street designs to prevent the DOT from making strands of spaghetti cluster on perfect roads with this vision zero crap. Regional Coordination needs to be advocated into the table and everything needs to work together and equally for a more transparent transportation network that works together to find solutions, not independently growing deplorable service and transportation like nowadays. Just how the "Summer of Hell" with Penn Station, DOT needs to change all roadway patterns and regulations in the area to smoothly accommodate traffic and bus service around Manhattan with enough traffic lanes, and smooth traffic.

 

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[WestFarms36]

I heard XN60s will be on the Bx6 +SBS+ next year, DOT should find a solution for the 155 St Bridge, that curve at the intersection is a knife cutter, thing is sharp as hell that 40 Ft buses have to make a wide turn into the 2nd lane to make it through, I feel that the DOT should have expanded the turning radius at the Macobs Dam Bridge.

 

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Edited July 8, 2017 by WestFarms36

[East New York]

I feel like a broken record for the last 9 years when I say this lol.

 

Articulated buses have a tighter turning radius than their rigid (40 foot) counterparts.

 

XN60's are going on the B35 as well and their are some crazy right turns in that route.