Select Bus Service Discussion Thread

[Interested Rider]

I have a question concerning the select bus poles (the big things that list the next bus to arrive) and how they work. There is one such lighted pole located on the east side of Nostrand Avenue and Avenue X for the B/44 Local and SBS. This pole lists the B/36 to Avenue U even if will arrive over 40 minutes later all the time, however, it does not list either the B/44 local or the B/44 SBS until the bus is about 6 minutes away from the stop. It does not list any information about a B/44 bus 10 minutes behind (for example)  that is coming while the B/36 has multiple listings. Where does the sign activation for the B/44 take place? At Knapp Street or Emmons and Nostrand Avenues? When there is nothing posted does it mean that there are no B/44 buses of either type on their way to the Avenue X stop at that particular time?

For the record there is no pole on the west side of Nostrand Avenue at Avenue X so I cannot compare the information that is posted.

[aemoreira81]

For the B82 SBS, are any of the new buses planned to be that fleet? Or will 4700s be the B82 SBS fleet, taken from Bronx Division? As for the last stop, instead of being by the Ulmer Park Depot, I would propose to have it by Caesar's Bay Shopping Center instead at the end of Bay Parkway.

Edited August 13, 2017 by aemoreira81

[limitednyc]

I have a question concerning the select bus poles (the big things that list the next bus to arrive) and how they work. There is one such lighted pole located on the east side of Nostrand Avenue and Avenue X for the B/44 Local and SBS. This pole lists the B/36 to Avenue U even if will arrive over 40 minutes later all the time, however, it does not list either the B/44 local or the B/44 SBS until the bus is about 6 minutes away from the stop. It does not list any information about a B/44 bus 10 minutes behind (for example)  that is coming while the B/36 has multiple listings. Where does the sign activation for the B/44 take place? At Knapp Street or Emmons and Nostrand Avenues? When there is nothing posted does it mean that there are no B/44 buses of either type on their way to the Avenue X stop at that particular time?

For the record there is no pole on the west side of Nostrand Avenue at Avenue X so I cannot compare the information that is posted.

because the bus has to be in motion in that direction ie north 44 and east 36.

[Interested Rider]

So therefore based on the previous statement,  the B/36 will always be posted on the pole as it is in motion but the riders will not know when the next B/44 local or SBS will arrive unless it is in motion. This means that if I want to know if there is a B/44 waiting at Knapp Street that is scheduled to be pulling out in five minutes from there (for example), I will not know that there is a B/44 bus coming in 11 minutes because it is not in motion but then suddenly five minutes after I looked at the pole, I find that there will be a B/44 in 6 minutes.Based on what was posted  the information on the pole is reliable for the B/36 as all B/36 buses are in motion but is clueless for the B/44 which may not be in motion. So how do I know when the next B/44 is going to arrive after I just missed one and none of the B/44 buses are in motion from Knapp Street?. So what is the purpose of the pole if I am waiting for the B/44 but all it has is the next bus information for the B/36? So based on what is posted on the pole and i see nothing for the B/44, I am better off walking the three blocks to Avenue U where I have a better chance at finding a B/44 bus of any type!

[Around the Horn]

So therefore based on the previous statement,  the B/36 will always be posted on the pole as it is in motion but the riders will not know when the next B/44 local or SBS will arrive unless it is in motion. This means that if I want to know if there is a B/44 waiting at Knapp Street that is scheduled to be pulling out in five minutes from there (for example), I will not know that there is a B/44 bus coming in 11 minutes because it is not in motion but then suddenly five minutes after I looked at the pole, I find that there will be a B/44 in 6 minutes.Based on what was posted  the information on the pole is reliable for the B/36 as all B/36 buses are in motion but is clueless for the B/44 which may not be in motion. So how do I know when the next B/44 is going to arrive after I just missed one and none of the B/44 buses are in motion from Knapp Street?. So what is the purpose of the pole if I am waiting for the B/44 but all it has is the next bus information for the B/36? So based on what is posted on the pole and i see nothing for the B/44, I am better off walking the three blocks to Avenue U where I have a better chance at finding a B/44 bus of any type!

GPS tracking can't make an accurate time estimate until the bus starts its run. Since the stop is near the end of the B36 (as opposed to the beginning of the B44), you'll see more estimates for the B36.

[Future ENY OP]

For the B82 SBS, are any of the new buses planned to be that fleet? Or will 4700s be the B82 SBS fleet, taken from Bronx Division? As for the last stop, instead of being by the Ulmer Park Depot, I would propose to have it by Caesar's Bay Shopping Center instead at the end of Bay Parkway.

Hopefully Ulmer Park could get back the B82 Local since it's last stop is Ulmer Park and leave the SBS with East New York. Have certain SBS end at Casears Bay, others in Coney Island.

[Interested Rider]

So the reality is that a person waiting at the Avenue X stop will have no idea about how long he/she will be waiting for a B/44 at the stop as nothing is posted until the bus leaves Knapp Street. Isn't that what posted schedules are for? The problem is that when the posted schedule is listed as every x number of minutes with no specific times, how does one know when the next bus is coming?. So what the MTA is saying to the rider quite emphatically is if you do not see the B/44 posted on the sign, then the rider is better off walking the three blocks to Avenue U where the rider has a 50:50 chance of catching a B/44 bus.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

So the reality is that a person waiting at the Avenue X stop will have no idea about how long he/she will be waiting for a B/44 at the stop as nothing is posted until the bus leaves Knapp Street. Isn't that what posted schedules are for? The problem is that when the posted schedule is listed as every x number of minutes with no specific times, how does one know when the next bus is coming?. So what the MTA is saying to the rider quite emphatically is if you do not see the B/44 posted on the sign, then the rider is better off walking the three blocks to Avenue U where the rider has a 50:50 chance of catching a B/44 bus.

That's correct.  This isn't just on the B44SBS. It's a practice the is using on all SBS routes.  They would like to do away with schedules because they feel as if it gives the drivers more flexibility.  They want drivers to be in and out of stops and not sitting around.  Now I'm not a fan of this because on lines where buses are spread out, if you don't see anything on BusTime, you could be waiting a while, but for the most part, most of the SBS lines run fair frequently most of the time.  However, that doesn't mean that you won't be waiting for a bus for 20 minutes even though they're supposed to be coming say every 5 minutes.  Bus bunching is still a huge problem, even on SBS lines and I don't think enough is being done to combat the problem.  

 

The Riders' Alliance Group is set to release an update on bus service in the coming weeks, and one of the things that they discuss is that bus service is still atrocious, and they slam the AND the DOT for not doing nearly enough. Not enough bus lanes, not enough enforcement of the current bus lanes, and on and on, and I agree 100%. Still LOTS of problems.  

Edited August 14, 2017 by Via Garibaldi 8

[danielhg121]

Imagine a scenario where a bus operator pulls into the terminal late. The 2nd bus pulls in on time. On the return trip, should the late bus stop at the first stop and tell passengers it will run non-stop to some other point along the line. The current set-up is the late bus hauls ass to somewhere down the line NIS carrying no passengers at all which I think screws over people waiting at the first stop of the line the most. If they all crowd on one bus, the delays will only spiral out of control. This is sort of like something the subways does but the scenario would only work for buses at terminals, having people switch buses mid-route is a hassle and I’ve seen it done before but the dispatcher just moves all the passengers from one bus to the more crowded one.

 

 

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[Interested Rider]

There is an approximately 17 minute headway on the B/44 south of Avenue U during the non-rush hours during the week and this includes both the local and SBS services. It is longer on the weekends. So for all intensive purposes as I stated, the ubiquitous pole that has been placed is virtually useless to any rider except during the rush hours. Thank you Via Garibaldi 8 for trying to explain to me the unexplainable which is what is going here.

[checkmatechamp13]

Imagine a scenario where a bus operator pulls into the terminal late. The 2nd bus pulls in on time. On the return trip, should the late bus stop at the first stop and tell passengers it will run non-stop to some other point along the line. The current set-up is the late bus hauls ass to somewhere down the line NIS carrying no passengers at all which I think screws over people waiting at the first stop of the line the most. If they all crowd on one bus, the delays will only spiral out of control. This is sort of like something the subways does but the scenario would only work for buses at terminals, having people switch buses mid-route is a hassle and I’ve seen it done before but the dispatcher just moves all the passengers from one bus to the more crowded one.

 

The problem is that boarding those passengers still takes time, and on top of that, there will usually be some confusion (i.e. More time needed) since some of the passengers will likely need to go to those skipped stops. 

 

It depends, sometimes skipping the first stop (and going directly to the second stop) might be all that's needed to balance out the loads and allow for even spacing between the buses. If it's something like those Bx12 +SBS+ buses that go straight from Inwood to Fordham Plaza to make up time then yeah, I would agree that they should inform the passengers and let them on if they're riding past that point.

[Interested Rider]

My point here remains and that is the pole is good if a person is taking the B/36 to Avenue U and is virtually useless for those riders that need the B/44 local and SBS as it only posts when there is a bus running. Forget the one where the DOT has the MTA information which just has every x number of minutes and does not have the exact times so unless the B/44 is on the road from Knapp Street, If a person does not have technology with them, (and there are people who don't have it with them) there is no way for a rider to know when the B/44 local or SBS is coming..even though there may be a bus waiting to pull out from Knapp Street.The key here is that if the bus is waiting, it should be posted as it gives the rider a better idea when the bus is coming out even if it is 15 or more minutes later.

[BrooklynBus]

My point here remains and that is the pole is good if a person is taking the B/36 to Avenue U and is virtually useless for those riders that need the B/44 local and SBS as it only posts when there is a bus running. Forget the one where the DOT has the MTA information which just has every x number of minutes and does not have the exact times so unless the B/44 is on the road from Knapp Street, If a person does not have technology with them, (and there are people who don't have it with them) there is no way for a rider to know when the B/44 local or SBS is coming..even though there may be a bus waiting to pull out from Knapp Street.The key here is that if the bus is waiting, it should be posted as it gives the rider a better idea when the bus is coming out even if it is 15 or more minutes later.

I have a similar problem with BusTime at the beginning of the B1. It will say bus at Mackenzie loop which is two minutes away but it won't tell you if the bus will leave in two minutes or 15 minutes. The driver could even be on a 45 minute break. I don't see what is so difficult to combine the GPS data with the schedule data to give the passenger an approximate time of arrival for buses not yet on route.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I have a similar problem with BusTime at the beginning of the B1. It will say bus at Mackenzie loop which is two minutes away but it won't tell you if the bus will leave in two minutes or 15 minutes. The driver could even be on a 45 minute break. I don't see what is so difficult to combine the GPS data with the schedule data to give the passenger an approximate time of arrival for buses not yet on route.

Oh give me a break. What is with you two complaining about BusTime? On the one hand, I keep hearing about people not having access to the technology, and on the other, people are complaining about BusTime not working to their liking. I've been using BusTime since it debuted in 2012 and it's fine overall. Look at the schedule listed at the bus stop or download it and you have an idea as to when the bus is due. There are also other apps that provide the info you're asking for but that is only going to be super accurate since it isn't always clear which bus is leaving when. The fewer buses there are, the easier it is to figure out which bus will be leaving the terminal next. Edited August 15, 2017 by Via Garibaldi 8

[BreeddekalbL]

What will this new select bus service in brooklyn be called running along the b54 route?

 

and i guess the m14 crosstown will be designated as M14S?

[MetroTransitTee]

What will this new select bus service in brooklyn be called running along the b54 route?

 

and i guess the m14 crosstown will be designated as M14S?

I don't think they're that far ahead in planning. Lol.

[checkmatechamp13]

There is an approximately 17 minute headway on the B/44 south of Avenue U during the non-rush hours during the week and this includes both the local and SBS services. It is longer on the weekends. So for all intensive purposes as I stated, the ubiquitous pole that has been placed is virtually useless to any rider except during the rush hours. Thank you Via Garibaldi 8 for trying to explain to me the unexplainable which is what is going here.

 

Agreed. Especially towards the beginning of the route, the times should be relatively accurate, and if not, at least you get an idea of when the bus is supposed to come.

 

I have a similar problem with BusTime at the beginning of the B1. It will say bus at Mackenzie loop which is two minutes away but it won't tell you if the bus will leave in two minutes or 15 minutes. The driver could even be on a 45 minute break. I don't see what is so difficult to combine the GPS data with the schedule data to give the passenger an approximate time of arrival for buses not yet on route.

 

It usually says "2 minutes away (at terminal, scheduled to depart at XX:XX)". Sometimes when it's past the departure time, then it just says "At terminal" (but sometimes if it's past the time, it resumes giving you the scheduled departure time, so you know the bus is, in fact late).

[danielhg121]

Has it ever been considered converting the Bx40/42 to select bus service? It would provide Throgs Neck with more, and faster bus service IMO.

 

In this proposal, I would create something similar to the M34/A select, by renaming the Bx42 the Bx40A.

 

- to 96 St

No, I don’t think anyone has ever thought to convert it. It gets decent ridership but service is either sub-par or below or the buses tend to bunch easily creating severe service gaps. Many skip the fare as is so maybe SBS can change that.

 

 

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[Interested Rider]

Thanks to the various posters on this thread for giving me an idea of what is going on here so that I can explain it to riders who are looking at the pole and asking when is the next B/44 is coming when all the buses that are listed are the B/36 to Avenue U. I point out that the reason that the B/44 is not listed is the bus is not moving and B/44 buses (like B/36) are listed only when they are moving, not waiting at Knapp Street to begin the run.

The reactions that I receive are for the most part are similar to mine which is "when is the next B/44 coming"? To wit, if a person does not have an electronic device to check on the information is "you are out of luck!".

[bobtehpanda]

Thanks to the various posters on this thread for giving me an idea of what is going on here so that I can explain it to riders who are looking at the pole and asking when is the next B/44 is coming when all the buses that are listed are the B/36 to Avenue U. I point out that the reason that the B/44 is not listed is the bus is not moving and B/44 buses (like B/36) are listed only when they are moving, not waiting at Knapp Street to begin the run.

The reactions that I receive are for the most part are similar to mine which is "when is the next B/44 coming"? To wit, if a person does not have an electronic device to check on the information is "you are out of luck!".

 

It's exactly the same without a phone as it was pre BusTime. You check the schedule box and pray.

[checkmatechamp13]

It's exactly the same without a phone as it was pre BusTime. You check the schedule box and pray.

 

Except the problem is a lot of times when they have these countdown clocks, they remove the schedule box.

[Interested Rider]

The schedule box just listed every 17 minutes with no specific times and this has been going on for years on the B/44 as I reported it to the MTA  many years ago as the Kings Highway SBS stop southbound did not have the actual times for either the Avenue U or Knapp Street runs. The answer that I received was that it was the DOT's fault. Oh really! Who provides the information to the DOT? the MTA of course! So again the  thought is to cast off responsibility which has become commonplace in a society where the first thing whenever a problem is raised is to blame the messenger for bringing up a problem that should have been resolved before the pole was put up here in the first place.

The question remains "when is the next B/44 local and SBS bus coming?" Not everybody wants to or has the new technology that may provide the information needed. Since it is "alleged" that everyone has a device of some kind so that they can track the buses, those who have it forget that there will always be people who will not have it for one reason or another.and that is their prerogative. It is, however, just as important to provide information to those individuals as it is to those who have the technology.. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The schedule box just listed every 17 minutes with no specific times and this has been going on for years on the B/44 as I reported it to the MTA  many years ago as the Kings Highway SBS stop southbound did not have the actual times for either the Avenue U or Knapp Street runs. The answer that I received was that it was the DOT's fault. Oh really! Who provides the information to the DOT? the MTA of course! So again the  thought is to cast off responsibility which has become commonplace in a society where the first thing whenever a problem is raised is to blame the messenger for bringing up a problem that should have been resolved before the pole was put up here in the first place.

The question remains "when is the next B/44 local and SBS bus coming?" Not everybody wants to or has the new technology that may provide the information needed. Since it is "alleged" that everyone has a device of some kind so that they can track the buses, those who have it forget that there will always be people who will not have it for one reason or another.and that is their prerogative. It is, however, just as important to provide information to those individuals as it is to those who have the technology.. 

If you're that concerned about it, download the bus schedule from the website.

 

http://web.mta.info/nyct/bus/schedule/bkln/b044scur.pdf

[Union Tpke]

I have seen the new SBS wrap on the Bx6. I saw one yesterday from the Major Deegan.

[Union Tpke]

Update on B82 SBS: http://www.nyc.gov/html/brt/downloads/pdf/brt-south-brooklyn-b82-sept2017.pdf