Select Bus Service Discussion Thread

[Mtatransit]

As I said, if it isn't excessive, then there must be huge gaps in places on the route which isn't good either. With the bunching, the SBS buses were still arriving every four minutes. The locals were much less frequent and a little more crowded. Yes buses are relatively empty everywhere except for beach buses which are overflowing. That is not good management. Perhaps the summer schedule needs to take affect two or three weeks earlier with extra service on beach routes and less service on routes such as the M15.

Pretty sure that's MTA's mentality already, cut service here for extra service there

[bobtehpanda]

And in those 10-15 seconds you can miss the bus. Yes, it's quick, but the difference with on-board payment is that if the B/O sees you running, you can get on and take your MetroCard out on-board while the bus pulls out of the stop. Now granted, you have idiots who stand in the stairwell and cause the bus to miss the light, but I'm saying that in those cases, standard on-board payment saves time for that particular passenger.

 

Now yes, overall, I agree that on busy routes off-board fare payment speeds up trip time overall. 

 

So, the bus should hold up the dozens of people on the bus for the one person who might miss it? Cry me a river.

[bobtehpanda]

I see where you and VG8 are coming from but this line of thought has been used in other topics where the discussion was far more focused on the increase in delays then here. Even here, the fact that personal responsibility of commuters is being brought up on a transit forum discussing a system used by millions is a giant smoke screen.

 

Folks who lack personal responsibility will end up late to important functions regardless of what commute they take so I don't see how this even applies to what's going on with the MTA as a whole. I agree with you and VG8 in the sense that there are masses of commuters who don't take their commutes seriously enough but I feel that such an issue is much ado about nothing when millions of commuters have to be considered and all of them are seeing the effects in some way, shape or form of the worsening service. 

 

This is about personal responsibility regarding just missing the bus because you're fumbling with your Metrocard or change. The nice thing about SBS is that it moves your personal inability to properly use the thing from the on-board farebox, where your irresponsibility holds up everyone else, to the curb, where it doesn't.

[GreatOne2k]

SBS machines can also damage metrocards as well, and unlike the other bus routes, or even the subway, there is no one that can give you a courtesy ride while your card has a read error.

[RailRunRob]

This is about personal responsibility regarding just missing the bus because you're fumbling with your Metrocard or change. The nice thing about SBS is that it moves your personal inability to properly use the thing from the on-board farebox, where your irresponsibility holds up everyone else, to the curb, where it doesn't.

Bingo!

 

 

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SBS machines can also damage metrocards as well, and unlike the other bus routes, or even the subway, there is no one that can give you a courtesy ride while your card has a read error.

There's always issues and kinks to work out with any technology. Tap to pay is on its way shouldn't be a issue very soon.

 

 

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[BrooklynBus]

Uh no. They can add service to the beach lines accordingly, not steal service from other lines. Buses are less used in the summer on most lines. Doesn't mean you cut service because then you have packed buses unnecessarily.

They have something called service planning guidelines which they actually should follow. There should be enough service to provide a seat for everyone most of the time. Standees are allowed but not for more than 15 minutes. Of course that assumes the buses are evenly spaced. If they assume that all buses bunch two at a time, you would have to provide nearly twice the service you need. To have one route where over half the seats are always empty and another where it is so jam packed that you have to miss five buses at certain stops clearly means service guidelines are not being followed.

 

Pretty sure that's MTA's mentality already, cut service here for extra service there

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that mentality if that's what it takes to provide smooth operations.

[Mtatransit]

They have something called service planning guidelines which they actually should follow. There should be enough service to provide a seat for everyone most of the time. Standees are allowed but not for more than 15 minutes. Of course that assumes the buses are evenly spaced. If they assume that all buses bunch two at a time, you would have to provide nearly twice the service you need. To have one route where over half the seats are always empty and another where it is so jam packed that you have to miss five buses at certain stops clearly means service guidelines are not being followed.

 

 

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that mentality if that's what it takes to provide smooth operations.

And MTA used those exact same service guidelines to cut bus service. Ridership is dropping, MTA cuts service, riders drop even more, not a good way to encourage ridership. One of the reason SBS increases ridership is because MTA most of the time increase service

Edited June 26, 2017 by Mtatransit

[checkmatechamp13]

In terms of those that are taking mass transit, you have as many people that aren't taking personal responsibility.... Telling me that you have a lot of people that are taking taxi's & other modes (while still being true) FWIW is moving the goalpost.... I wouldn't be talking about the responsibility of commuters as it relates to the MTA, if my stance was centered around people taking non-MTA services..... So to answer your question, since I've always been about options, my answer is a resounding NO..... Take what you want.

 

Furthermore, why are you asking me what's wrong with someone wanting to get home (or wherever) somewhere in a reasonable amount of time, if that's the very premise behind leaving early (again, in terms of taking mass transit)? Nobody is faulting you or anyone for taking alternative means of travel, so AFAIC, I don't know why this is being posed at me - and really, where this is even coming from all of a sudden....

 

My point is that there's situations where people would've very much liked to take mass transit, but they knew that the trip would've been longer because of unreliability, so they opted to take a different mode. That attitude results in lower ridership on MTA services for no reason. It's one thing if they're running service every 30 minutes in some low-ridership area or at some low-ridership time, then yeah, there's just going to be some people who don't want to wait that long for the bus or train. But when they provide service every 10 minutes and you have half hour gaps (or even when you have bunching on 30 minute headways leading to 60 minute gaps), and their attitude is that people should just "leave earlier" to try and catch one of those packs of buses, then don't try to complain that ridership is declining.

 

Same thing with the subway or commuter rail. 

 

So, the bus should hold up the dozens of people on the bus for the one person who might miss it? Cry me a river.

 

Where did I say it should?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Where did I say it should?

Oh just stop already.  You implied as much with your response.  No one in their right mind would even bring up something so insignificant as the seconds that it takes to get your ticket from the machine.  Everyone else has to pay in advance, and if they don't want to miss the bus, they arrive a little before it's due so that they can pay and board when it comes. It's that simple.  I don't think the process needs to change because of a few people that seem to think it's so inconvenient to pay in advance when it benefits thousands of riders.

 

As I said before, it comes with the territory.  I've missed a few buses and I've also made a few buses. When I missed the bus, I had to wait for the next one. Not the end of the world. If it is well take a taxi.  It's public transit after all. I'm sure plenty of people miss the subway everyday because they can't swipe and get through the turnstile fast enough. It is what it is.

 

Bus ridership is suffering in general and we need to continue to find ways to speed up things like boarding and the overall speed of buses.  SBS attempts to at least address the boarding process...

Edited June 26, 2017 by Via Garibaldi 8

[petabread]

I have to chime in here because it's actually quite entertaining. First and foremost, with regards to off board payment, it's simple and quick. As someone who works for transit and saw everything first hand, easily the biggest issue is people waiting to see a bus before they get their ticket. Honestly, if a bus pulls up and you're not ready and the bus is, doors should close and you have to wait for the next bus.

 

Next, in regards to personal responisibility, again, from experience. Most people who complain about service reliability DO NOT allot themselves enough time. There is a lot the MTA is at fault for with regards to service delays but a lot of people don't allow proper travel time. This is NYC, a train gets held up for 10-20 seconds per stop for holding doors or whatever, that train will be late. For the example of someone living 15 mins away from their job, in Nyc, a lot of people will leave 20 mins to get to work. Maybe they make it 80% of the time, but how about you get down stairs and you get on the same train and now there is a sick customer? It doesn't change the further away you live, most people will plan their trip with them arriving 1 min before clocking in, that is what is wrong with the people and their lack of responsibility, and that is more the norm than anything else.

[danielhg121]

However, there is one small problem with off board payment is that five second window of when it displays that "Thank You" message, no one needs it first of all and quickly change to the goddamn start screen so I can insert the Metrocard. At hectic bus stops like a subway transfer or even a bus transfer, you have many people coming all out at once and everybody wants to get to their destination and those seconds sure add up per passenger. The further you are at the end of the line, the greater your chances are of missing the bus. However, I do agree that people should be getting their tickets if they decide to ride SBS, many passengers at my stop are making the choice to get it either way but when a local counterpart comes, they dip their metro card........, just hand the receipt to the driver, most will understand.

 

 

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[Mtatransit]

However, there is one small problem with off board payment is that five second window of when it displays that "Thank You" message, no one needs it first of all and quickly change to the goddamn start screen so I can insert the Metrocard. At hectic bus stops like a subway transfer or even a bus transfer, you have many people coming all out at once and everybody wants to get to their destination and those seconds sure add up per passenger. The further you are at the end of the line, the greater your chances are of missing the bus. However, I do agree that people should be getting their tickets if they decide to ride SBS, many passengers at my stop are making the choice to get it either way but when a local counterpart comes, they dip their metro card........, just hand the receipt to the driver, most will understand.

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Not the worst thing, I had one machine get stuck on the Thank You message and there is a huge line now to get ticket. The bus is super delayed due to people holding doors for everyone now... New technology should alleviate this problem

[paulrivera]

SBS machines can also damage metrocards as well, and unlike the other bus routes, or even the subway, there is no one that can give you a courtesy ride while your card has a read error.

Yes they do.

 

I've had unlimiteds that would have a read error at the SBS machine on the first dip, and "Just Used" on the second dip, without spitting out the ticket.

 

At least on the local buses the farebox would say "    OK    " (as opposed to "EXP 06/30" or "$2.75 paid") and not display a read error more often than not.

 

 

just hand the receipt to the driver, most will understand.

That's not the way it works on the Bx12 and Bx41. The local drivers really give you a hard time on those lines if you board with a SBS receipt.

Edited June 26, 2017 by paulrivera

[bobtehpanda]

Where did I say it should?

 

 

And in those 10-15 seconds you can miss the bus. Yes, it's quick, but the difference with on-board payment is that if the B/O sees you running, you can get on and take your MetroCard out on-board while the bus pulls out of the stop. Now granted, you have idiots who stand in the stairwell and cause the bus to miss the light, but I'm saying that in those cases, standard on-board payment saves time for that particular passenger.

 

Now yes, overall, I agree that on busy routes off-board fare payment speeds up trip time overall. 

 

The mere act of waiting for you for 10-15 seconds to get on, in aggregate, can slow down the bus quite a lot, and is in fact one of the situations that SBS tries to avoid. After all, the driver is not legally permitted to move until you're behind that solid white line. Hence why off-board payment is even a thing.

[B35 via Church]

My point is that there's situations where people would've very much liked to take mass transit, but they knew that the trip would've been longer because of unreliability, so they opted to take a different mode. That attitude results in lower ridership on MTA services for no reason. It's one thing if they're running service every 30 minutes in some low-ridership area or at some low-ridership time, then yeah, there's just going to be some people who don't want to wait that long for the bus or train. But when they provide service every 10 minutes and you have half hour gaps (or even when you have bunching on 30 minute headways leading to 60 minute gaps), and their attitude is that people should just "leave earlier" to try and catch one of those packs of buses, then don't try to complain that ridership is declining.

 

Same thing with the subway or commuter rail.

The unreliability is what's leading to the declining ridership, not the attitude of leaving earlier....

 

No amount of leaving earlier is going to prepare you for the egregious occurrences of 1/2 hour gaps along a route that's scheduled / supposed to run on 10 min. headways.... That's not what I'm suggesting to try to predict & avert by leaving earlier.....

 

My point is predicated on the notion that there are too many commuters that are dead set on trying to get wherever they have to get to, at the time they're supposed to be there, instead of being early....

 

Next, in regards to personal responisibility, again, from experience. Most people who complain about service reliability DO NOT allot themselves enough time. There is a lot the MTA is at fault for with regards to service delays but a lot of people don't allow proper travel time. This is NYC, a train gets held up for 10-20 seconds per stop for holding doors or whatever, that train will be late. For the example of someone living 15 mins away from their job, in Nyc, a lot of people will leave 20 mins to get to work. Maybe they make it 80% of the time, but how about you get down stairs and you get on the same train and now there is a sick customer? It doesn't change the further away you live, most people will plan their trip with them arriving 1 min before clocking in, that is what is wrong with the people and their lack of responsibility, and that is more the norm than anything else.

Exactly.... There is too much, trying to perfectly time shit going on.....

[BrooklynBus]

And MTA used those exact same service guidelines to cut bus service. Ridership is dropping, MTA cuts service, riders drop even more, not a good way to encourage ridership. One of the reason SBS increases ridership is because MTA most of the time increase service

Exactly, the ridership guidelines are used mainly as justification to cut service. It is rarely used to increase service and when ridership does increase service does not increase as much as it should. I don't agree that SBS increases ridership most of the time from the statistics I've seen. The B44 SBS will soon enter its fourth year and the latest 2016 statistics show fewer B44 riders than before SBS began.

 

You are right in that service should increase first to increase ridership. Otherwise you have a vicious cycle of reduced service leading to reduced ridership, but the MTA doesn't see it that way. They believe if service is reduced ridership will remain the same. They also don't see that increased service increases ridership. The loss per passenger is all they care about and reducing service they believe reduces the loss per passenger so that is the direction they are going.

[BrooklynBus]

Oh just stop already.  You implied as much with your response.  No one in their right mind would even bring up something so insignificant as the seconds that it takes to get your ticket from the machine.

 

Bus ridership is suffering in general and we need to continue to find ways to speed up things like boarding and the overall speed of buses.  SBS attempts to at least address the boarding process...

So everyone who disagrees with you are not in their right mind?

 

Just as important as speeding up passenger trips (notice I did not say service) is changing archaic bus routes to make transferring easier so that more bus trips can be accomplished using one or two buses instead of three or four and costing multiple fares. Splitting routes in half increases the numbers of transfers required as does SBS uses not going to the end of a route. Why would anyone fravel between my neighborhood and Rockaway, which I can see from the front of my house with three or four buses taking 90 minutes to two hours? The poor route structure and multiple fates required to make certain trips are just as much deterrents as poor service reliability.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

So everyone who disagrees with you are not in their right mind?

 

Just as important as speeding up passenger trips (notice I did not say service) is changing archaic bus routes to make transferring easier so that more bus trips can be accomplished using one or two buses instead of three or four and costing multiple fares. Splitting routes in half increases the numbers of transfers required as does SBS uses not going to the end of a route. Why would anyone fravel between my neighborhood and Rockaway, which I can see from the front of my house with three or four buses taking 90 minutes to two hours? The poor route structure and multiple fates required to make certain trips are just as much deterrents as poor service reliability.

Well you tell me... It takes 10 - 15 seconds to get a receipt from the machine.  If someone can't get to the stop a few minutes earlier, there's a problem, and that's not being reasonable when taking public transit. Someone who can't wait that long should be taking car service, not SBS.

 

Can't disagree with you about the second part, but route restructuring is something that doesn't seem to interested in aside from cutting costs.  They aren't doing it to benefit the rider (despite them claiming that they care about reliability so much).  

[RailRunRob]

Well you tell me... It takes 10 - 15 seconds to get a receipt from the machine. If someone can't get to the stop a few minutes earlier, there's a problem, and that's not being reasonable when taking public transit. Someone who can't wait that long should be taking car service, not SBS.

 

Can't disagree with you about the second part, but route restructuring is something that doesn't seem to interested in aside from cutting costs. They aren't doing it to benefit the rider (despite them claiming that they care about reliability so much).

I agree with you on off board payments but to follow up on the second point and maybe this is left field my question is how the MTA even surveys routes and ridership BrooklynBus has a point with optimizing routes can the MTA even start to unravel 300 plus routes? That number multiplies exponentially when you start talking about the transfer points and into connectivity between routes. A lot of these routes derived from predecessor services and modes of transport (Streetcar) from completely different times and periods in New York's history. I wonder if the MTA even has the know-how or resource to optimize most routes. I kind of look at it like legacy software you change one line of code and it has a ripple of effect with everything that touches it. In any case it doesn't seem like a simple task at least from my point of view.

 

 

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[Via Garibaldi 8]

I agree with you on off board payments but to follow up on the second point and maybe this is left field my question is how the MTA even surveys routes and ridership BrooklynBus has a point with optimizing routes can the MTA even start to unravel 300 plus routes? That number multiplies exponentially when you start talking about the transfer points and into connectivity between routes. A lot of these routes derived from predecessor services and modes of transport (Streetcar) from completely different times and periods in New York's history. I wonder if the MTA even has the know-how or resource to optimize most routes. I kind of look at it like legacy software you change one line of code and it has a ripple of effect with everything that touches it. In any case it doesn't seem like a simple task at least from my point of view.

 

 

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They have planners that are supposedly always tweaking routes. The routes that they give a damn about or that they get a lot of complaints about receive attention.  Definitely politics involved... 

[RailRunRob]

They have planners that are supposedly always tweaking routes. The routes that they give a damn about or that they get a lot of complaints about receive attention. Definitely politics involved...

Anyone know the process or data points they parse to tweak service patterns ? Metrocard SN's? ect? Just curious.

 

 

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[BrooklynBus]

Well you tell me... It takes 10 - 15 seconds to get a receipt from the machine.  If someone can't get to the stop a few minutes earlier, there's a problem, and that's not being reasonable when taking public transit. Someone who can't wait that long should be taking car service, not SBS.

 

Can't disagree with you about the second part, but route restructuring is something that doesn't seem to interested in aside from cutting costs.  They aren't doing it to benefit the rider (despite them claiming that they care about reliability so much).

 

Your assumption that everyone should get to the bus stop 15 seconds earlier makes the assumption. That all buses always arrive exactly when they are supposed to. We both know that is untrue. Even with BusTime, I have had instances saying the bus is a block or two away only to look up to see it is arriving.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Your assumption that everyone should get to the bus stop 15 seconds earlier makes the assumption. That all buses always arrive exactly when they are supposed to. We both know that is untrue. Even with BusTime, I have had instances saying the bus is a block or two away only to look up to see it is arriving.

No, it's saying leave earlier if you're that afraid of missing a bus and being late. I know what time I have to be at work and elsewhere, so I leave with enough time in case there are delays or my bus is a no-show.  Be it a bus, subway, commuter rail... Delays happen.  Just last night, my bus going to Manhattan was 15 minutes late.  I had already factored in additional time for such a thing, knowing how many events were taking place, so I still arrived before I was supposed to.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Via Garibaldi 8

[BrooklynBus]

I agree with you on off board payments but to follow up on the second point and maybe this is left field my question is how the MTA even surveys routes and ridership BrooklynBus has a point with optimizing routes can the MTA even start to unravel 300 plus routes? That number multiplies exponentially when you start talking about the transfer points and into connectivity between routes. A lot of these routes derived from predecessor services and modes of transport (Streetcar) from completely different times and periods in New York's history. I wonder if the MTA even has the know-how or resource to optimize most routes. I kind of look at it like legacy software you change one line of code and it has a ripple of effect with everything that touches it. In any case it doesn't seem like a simple task at least from my point of view.

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I don't believe the MTA has any planners who understand the system. That is because they don't ride it. They think they can figure it out just by looking at a bunch of collected data. But it doesn't work that way. The data doesn't tell you everything. Like the numbers entering through the back door or why a bus gets stuck somewhere all the time. The drivers know, but the planners never seek their advice.

 

They are only capable of studying one route at a time. They are afraid to study a group of routes at a time which is the only way you will ever adequately update an antiquated system. That's what I did when I modified the southwest Brooklyn routes. We looked at a dozen routes and realigned the parts that weren't working. As I have often said it is like putting together a jigsaw puzzle. An when they do decide to make a minor change they study it for three years. The complex southwest Brooklyn changes took four years of study including wasting two years because the MTA kept throwing in monkey wrenches to delay us. It took a lawsuit to get them to seriously negotiate. They just have no interest in improving the bus system for the passengers and never did.

[checkmatechamp13]

Oh just stop already.  You implied as much with your response.  No one in their right mind would even bring up something so insignificant as the seconds that it takes to get your ticket from the machine.  Everyone else has to pay in advance, and if they don't want to miss the bus, they arrive a little before it's due so that they can pay and board when it comes. It's that simple.  I don't think the process needs to change because of a few people that seem to think it's so inconvenient to pay in advance when it benefits thousands of riders.

 

As I said before, it comes with the territory.  I've missed a few buses and I've also made a few buses. When I missed the bus, I had to wait for the next one. Not the end of the world. If it is well take a taxi.  It's public transit after all. I'm sure plenty of people miss the subway everyday because they can't swipe and get through the turnstile fast enough. It is what it is.

 

Bus ridership is suffering in general and we need to continue to find ways to speed up things like boarding and the overall speed of buses.  SBS attempts to at least address the boarding process...

 

And I didn't say had to change. On frequent routes with heavy ridership at each stop like the M86 & M79, yeah, off-board fare payment makes sense. But it doesn't make sense systemwide. Imagine the costs of trying to put SBS machines at every little stop on the B4, and then people watch the bus pull off while they fumble for their receipt and the next one is 20-30 minutes away. One or two people getting on and dipping their MetroCard doesn't take too much time. It's when you have say, 15-20 people at each stop along the route (not just at a few like say, on the S98 or something) where you see the benefits.

 

That's not the way it works on the Bx12 and Bx41. The local drivers really give you a hard time on those lines if you board with a SBS receipt.

 

To be fair, that's just poor training/supervision. The official MTA policy is that Your SBS ticket is your proof of payment for SBS service.  However, should another bus (local or limited) arrive at your stop before your SBS bus, you may board at the front door and give your ticket to the bus operator. 

 

The mere act of waiting for you for 10-15 seconds to get on, in aggregate, can slow down the bus quite a lot, and is in fact one of the situations that SBS tries to avoid. After all, the driver is not legally permitted to move until you're behind that solid white line. Hence why off-board payment is even a thing.

 

What's allowed and what happens in practice are two different things. But in any case, the person can always stand behind the white line while they reach for their MetroCard.

 

I agree with you on off board payments but to follow up on the second point and maybe this is left field my question is how the MTA even surveys routes and ridership BrooklynBus has a point with optimizing routes can the MTA even start to unravel 300 plus routes? That number multiplies exponentially when you start talking about the transfer points and into connectivity between routes. A lot of these routes derived from predecessor services and modes of transport (Streetcar) from completely different times and periods in New York's history. I wonder if the MTA even has the know-how or resource to optimize most routes. I kind of look at it like legacy software you change one line of code and it has a ripple of effect with everything that touches it. In any case it doesn't seem like a simple task at least from my point of view.

 

You look at it neighborhood by neighborhood. You look for the gaps, you look for the indirect routes, you look for the neighborhoods that have seen new development, etc and you go neighborhood by neighborhood and put together pieces of the puzzle. 

 

So for example, I felt that there was a gap in network coverage in my neighborhood, so I looked for some routes nearby that were available to extend in that direction. The first route that came to mind was the S93. It was a rush hour-only route at the time, but it had potential to become something more. Eventually, it got extended in a different direction (south towards CSI instead of west towards my neighborhood). Alright, fair enough, CSI could use a direct route serving it (and while I suppose you could branch out the S93, it's generally better to avoid branching where possible). Alright, so what do we have to work with....well the two main ridership generators out on Staten Island are St. George and Bay Ridge (well, Brooklyn in general).....so think of ways to send a ferry-bound route to fill that gap.....the S44 can do it, but it still kind of meanders around the North Shore....I was thinking of a route down Victory when I thought of the S93.....well the S66 is a Victory Blvd route and the route structure is rather odd, forming a U-shape, so sending it out that way would straighten it out.....and you can straighten out the S57 (which isn't quite as bad but still meanders a bit) to cover the S66 portion on Jewett. Alright, that gets you two solid routes and you could probably justify some weekend service on the S66, so you automatically fill that gap in Grymes Hill, and the S57 automatically fills the weekend gap on Jewett Avenue. The proposal does create a gap along Willowbrook Road, but a few well-placed school trippers can handle most of the riders.

 

Then you take a step back and evalulate it again (maybe at the same time, maybe a year later, etc). Alright, so the S66 is taking some ferry-bound riders from the S44. Maybe the S44 can be restructured as well, maybe as a route running down Willowbrook Road....now what's a good anchor on the southern end without trying to meander its way back to the SI Mall....ah, well CSI needs a north-south route, so maybe send it down Willowbrook, Woolley, and Forest Hill to CSI.....

 

Maybe you can write a program that optimizes the routes based on major ridership generators and origin-destination surveys (both on existing routes and from potential riders) and service gaps and so on, but you do need a human element overseeing it that's familiar with the area and the needs of its transit users and potential transit users.