Select Bus Service Discussion Thread

[WestFarms36]

1 hour ago, BrooklynBus said:

No one is shaming anyone for their opinions. I am just trying to have an intelligent discussion. 

And just because a few disagree does not mean it will not work. You say the B44 is long already, therefore no long route should ever be extended, period.  You say people are fine with what they have right now. No they are not. Many are not satisfied with the B44. If it takes 2 hours for a one hour schedule, that is a major  problem and the route is not operating correctly. First you fix the problem by not having an unrealistic schedule, and you also try to reduce run time by traffic enforcement or whatever. When you can get the route to be fairly reliable, then you can consider route changes or minor extensions. 

The fact is that most SBS routes are shit and if that's not what the public wants to hear, well that's too bad. Are we only supposed to tell the public what they want to hear if it's true or not? Well that's what the MTA is doing regarding SBS and that's not right either. 

And it's not almost everyone here who has a problem with me. And I do admit it if I made a mistake, but I have not been convinced in this case. So far the reasons I have heard why this idea won't work is: the route is already screwed up so don't screw it up more. My answer is first make the route work then you can consider route changes to make it work better. The other reason is that too many people would use the route if the change were made. How is that a bad thing? You adjust the schedule to fit the demand. Getting more people to use a route makes a successful route. That is not a reason against a change. Is it better when the route is underutilized? 

I respect the opinion of bus operators but that doesn't mean operators not supporting but a change is a valid reason not to make the change. You have to realize that bus operators prefer to work lightly utilized routes and shun heavily utilized routes. So if we only listen to bus operators, we would have more lightly utilized routes like the B4 that bus operators with seniority prefer, and few routes that are heavily used because they are more difficult to operate. Our prime concern should be the customer within financial constraints. 

 

I never said that the public should not know about the problems with +SBS+. Of course we need to, we're the one's paying $2.75 for bus service, but it doesn't mean that they should just be told that +SBS+ is outright shit. Customers want to know what makes the routes or the program ineffective and the reason is poor planning and incompetent leadership, but that is a point that is barely made across because the only thing that's in the scope is nothing but the service itself. If you claim that almost no one had any problems with you, but if that were the case there wouldn't be any cats and dog fights every year with people in the forums. You are now talking about that if it were up to Bus Operator's they'd take the lightest utilized routes, but those are the front line workers that sometimes have to even sacrifice their lunch break in order to be able to make it to a terminal 1 hour or more late because of traffic. Those same Bus Operators have the balls to choose the heaviest routes during every pick and deal with the conditions outside. You don't deal with the conditions that Bus Operators deal with, probably if you were behind the wheel 1+ hour past your lunch break, and with an added run time it would become hell for what they currently deal with. It's not 1980, the traffic situation has gotten worse, and the city's infrastructure is too old and was never built to deal with modern day traffic leaving us to work things out with what we have. You know how the  is and their nature of not listening. You're no longer an employee there, they will no longer regard your concerns, yapping about the B44 +SBS+ to KCC on the Forums won't make it happen, we aren't councilmen. With an +SBS+ pilot of the new Fare Payment system in November 2019 and possible rollout in the following year, The  wouldn't want to have the DOT drill all the way to light poles in order to waste money on machines that probably won't even be around for a year... For the current struggles of the B44 +SBS+ I will leave that for an operator to elaborate and tell you about their day doing runs on the route.

[B35 via Church]

10 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I don't play games. I just made a mistake by referring to post 1770. I meant to say 1746. That was the post by Interested Rider I was referring to. Regarding 1770, I finally figured out what you were trying to say regarding runtime. But I don't agree that increased distance has to add runtime if you are changing the route, though in this case it would. 

You've been playing them in the past week or so in this discussion alone.... Again, you say you don't play games - Well how is it that I reference a post with which you clearly twisted what I said to try to make my point less sensible ("game" #1), I later bring up the fact that was done in a specific post (1770), you COMPLETELY evaded that & made a reference to an ENTIRELY different post ("game" #2)..... No reference of "post 1746" was ever made by me, as it related to you blatantly twisting what I said.... Cut the crap.

To tell me that you disagree with increased distance having to add runtime if you're changing the route, would be you disregarding simple mathematics... You are proposing an extension.... This has gotten sad at this point.

10 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

No one is shaming anyone for their opinions. I am just trying to have an intelligent discussion. 

And just because a few disagree does not mean it will not work. You say the B44 is long already, therefore no long route should ever be extended, period.  You say people are fine with what they have right now. No they are not. Many are not satisfied with the B44. If it takes 2 hours for a one hour schedule, that is a major  problem and the route is not operating correctly. First you fix the problem by not having an unrealistic schedule, and you also try to reduce run time by traffic enforcement or whatever. When you can get the route to be fairly reliable, then you can consider route changes or minor extensions. 

The fact is that most SBS routes are shit and if that's not what the public wants to hear, well that's too bad. Are we only supposed to tell the public what they want to hear if it's true or not? Well that's what the MTA is doing regarding SBS and that's not right either. 

And it's not almost everyone here who has a problem with me. And I do admit it if I made a mistake, but I have not been convinced in this case. So far the reasons I have heard why this idea won't work is: the route is already screwed up so don't screw it up more. My answer is first make the route work then you can consider route changes to make it work better. The other reason is that too many people would use the route if the change were made. How is that a bad thing? You adjust the schedule to fit the demand. Getting more people to use a route makes a successful route. That is not a reason against a change. Is it better when the route is underutilized? 

I respect the opinion of bus operators but that doesn't mean operators not supporting but a change is a valid reason not to make the change. You have to realize that bus operators prefer to work lightly utilized routes and shun heavily utilized routes. So if we only listen to bus operators, we would have more lightly utilized routes like the B4 that bus operators with seniority prefer, and few routes that are heavily used because they are more difficult to operate. Our prime concern should be the customer within financial constraints. 

You are trying to be right & exalt yourself as all-knowing & everyone else as being beneath you..... The problem is never you in any situation, it is always someone else... You only respect the opinion of people when it fits your narrative.... You can sit there & paint yourself in this light of being this fair, balanced, unproblematic person - The fact of the matter is, for some, it's difficult & absolutely aggravating to have an intelligent discussion with someone that have the character traits that you do....

As far as the summarized retorts to your suggestion..... You say "make the route work then you can consider route changes to make it work better." - Seriously now, that blasé type of a comment can be said any suggestion; oh, just make it work better...

Next retort, It's disgusting that you will support overcrowding, just to have this suggestion of yours passed off as being anymore plausible than the current situation with the B44 SBS... Just remember that, when you have to stand on a bus & no one decides to get up from their seat to have you have one.... Total disregard for any other B44 SBS rider further up the line, and then you wonder why you're catching flack about this suggestion being downright selfish..... Really comes across as if you could give a damn if some sect of riders are being passed up further up the line (subjecting them to have to wait for the buses coming from Knapp) - as long as it gets all those KCC kids out of your neighborhood....

The negatives outweigh the positives, much to your belief & dismay.... A long route that already has heavy ridership, should not have more strain added to it because BrooklynBus on Nyctransitforums.com has to be right all the time....

8 hours ago, WestFarms36 said:

I never said that the public should not know about the problems with +SBS+. Of course we need to, we're the one's paying $2.75 for bus service, but it doesn't mean that they should just be told that +SBS+ is outright shit. Customers want to know what makes the routes or the program ineffective and the reason is poor planning and incompetent leadership, but that is a point that is barely made across because the only thing that's in the scope is nothing but the service itself. If you claim that almost no one had any problems with you, but if that were the case there wouldn't be any cats and dog fights every year with people in the forums. You are now talking about that if it were up to Bus Operator's they'd take the lightest utilized routes, but those are the front line workers that sometimes have to even sacrifice their lunch break in order to be able to make it to a terminal 1 hour or more late because of traffic. Those same Bus Operators have the balls to choose the heaviest routes during every pick and deal with the conditions outside. You don't deal with the conditions that Bus Operators deal with, probably if you were behind the wheel 1+ hour past your lunch break, and with an added run time it would become hell for what they currently deal with. It's not 1980, the traffic situation has gotten worse, and the city's infrastructure is too old and was never built to deal with modern day traffic leaving us to work things out with what we have. You know how the  is and their nature of not listening. You're no longer an employee there, they will no longer regard your concerns, yapping about the B44 +SBS+ to KCC on the Forums won't make it happen, we aren't councilmen. With an +SBS+ pilot of the new Fare Payment system in November 2019 and possible rollout in the following year, The  wouldn't want to have the DOT drill all the way to light poles in order to waste money on machines that probably won't even be around for a year... For the current struggles of the B44 +SBS+ I will leave that for an operator to elaborate and tell you about their day doing runs on the route.

That's just his way of painting b/o's as lazy (since we have one on here that doesn't exactly concur with this B44 SBS to KCC bit), in a further attempt to bolster the suggestion as being this grand idea.....

Edited September 4, 2018 by B35 via Church

[BrooklynBus]

9 hours ago, DueceDrives said:

Anyone who’s complaining about the sbs or any other bus route is too slow and etc..... How about the city start enforcing tickets for either obstructing the bus stop or bus lanes. How about the city put a limits with these car share rides.  Until these issues are handled correctly, buses will always be late.

Your points are valid, but I am not so sure about limits on ride shares. That is attacking the symptom, not the problem, although more cars do delay buses. It's very easy for the MTA to blame everyone else but themselves for the lousy service we get at times. 

9 hours ago, DueceDrives said:

Todays SBS44 update....

Due to labor day street closures, it was a rough trip for passengers who were trying to commute North to South on SBS and local buses. One half of the route was from Knapp street to Empire or Williamsburg to St. Johns. In order for passengers to continue to Williamsburg or to Knapp Street,  the transfer point was at St.Johns. The bad thing was in order to reach the transfer point, you had to either walk to St johns or take the #2 train. Many passengers blamed the MTA, but myself and the supervisor had to educate them the reason why buses were being terminated at Empire or St. johns.

Lucky for me I was assigned to do the Knapp to Empire trips only and we were not following the time schedule. We were on supervision schedule which was 30 to 40 mins headways between buses.  Me being nice, some local stop that was heavy after the local 44 were delayed, I started to pick up passengers on some local stops but advised the passengers that were boarding from the local stop I will only stop at the sbs stops after we departed  from here, but of course  after a long wait some  did not mind at all to walk back after skipping their desired stops. All they wanted to get the heck out of the location they were stuck for a long period of time.

I always admire bus drivers such as yourself who are willing to break the rules and use common sense to do the right thing. However, there is no reason why a parade or other service dusruption such as a fire at a specific location should have serious ramifuficatiobs such as 30 minute headways when they should be every ten on the other side if the borough. That would indicates serious mismanagement, lack of management and/or a total lack of care for the passenger. 

[BrooklynBus]

9 hours ago, WestFarms36 said:

I never said that the public should not know about the problems with +SBS+. Of course we need to, we're the one's paying $2.75 for bus service, but it doesn't mean that they should just be told that +SBS+ is outright shit. Customers want to know what makes the routes or the program ineffective and the reason is poor planning and incompetent leadership, but that is a point that is barely made across because the only thing that's in the scope is nothing but the service itself. If you claim that almost no one had any problems with you, but if that were the case there wouldn't be any cats and dog fights every year with people in the forums. You are now talking about that if it were up to Bus Operator's they'd take the lightest utilized routes, but those are the front line workers that sometimes have to even sacrifice their lunch break in order to be able to make it to a terminal 1 hour or more late because of traffic. Those same Bus Operators have the balls to choose the heaviest routes during every pick and deal with the conditions outside. You don't deal with the conditions that Bus Operators deal with, probably if you were behind the wheel 1+ hour past your lunch break, and with an added run time it would become hell for what they currently deal with. It's not 1980, the traffic situation has gotten worse, and the city's infrastructure is too old and was never built to deal with modern day traffic leaving us to work things out with what we have. You know how the  is and their nature of not listening. You're no longer an employee there, they will no longer regard your concerns, yapping about the B44 +SBS+ to KCC on the Forums won't make it happen, we aren't councilmen. With an +SBS+ pilot of the new Fare Payment system in November 2019 and possible rollout in the following year, The  wouldn't want to have the DOT drill all the way to light poles in order to waste money on machines that probably won't even be around for a year... For the current struggles of the B44 +SBS+ I will leave that for an operator to elaborate and tell you about their day doing runs on the route.

I never said SBS is outright shit. I have stated that generally the program does not work. Of course, it may work on some routes but I haven't seen data that proves that definitively. As for what makes it ineffective, I have literally written hundreds of pages with specifics, and not merely made general statements. If I provide you with links now, someone is sure to criticize me for using the forum for my own agenda so I won't do that. 

I have the deepest respect for bus drivers. As a rider, I see firsthand some of the no sense they have to put up with every day, i.e. Improper passenger behavior, heavy traffic, dumb drivers and pedestrians, bikes, etc, not to mention management that doesn't treat them fairly etc. That said, that doesn't mean they do everything right either. I hope you are incorrect about them having no regard for my concerns because I am no longer an employee, because that is not the impression they are trying to give me. As for when I was an employee, their regard for my concerns was no greater. I received nothing but BS responses to my many concerns when I was an employee. The on,y differencecwas that they couldn't ignore me then. 

As far as wasting money on soon to be obsolete machines, I have written about that numerous times and that was a big reason why I opposed de Blasio's insistence that we have 21 new SBS routes in the next ten years and the MTA finally agreed with me. 

[Lawrence St]

The M60SBS is worse.

I don't understand how there can be 2 buses arriving at the same time and then the next one is 35 minutes away. And this happens EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

[Lawrence St]

2 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

I never said SBS is outright shit. I have stated that generally the program does not work. Of course, it may work on some routes but I haven't seen data that proves that definitively. As for what makes it ineffective, I have literally written hundreds of pages with specifics, and not merely made general statements. If I provide you with links now, someone is sure to criticize me for using the forum for my own agenda so I won't do that. 

I have the deepest respect for bus drivers. As a rider, I see firsthand some of the no sense they have to put up with every day, i.e. Improper passenger behavior, heavy traffic, dumb drivers and pedestrians, bikes, etc, not to mention management that doesn't treat them fairly etc. That said, that doesn't mean they do everything right either. I hope you are incorrect about them having no regard for my concerns because I am no longer an employee, because that is not the impression they are trying to give me. As for when I was an employee, their regard for my concerns was no greater. I received nothing but BS responses to my many concerns when I was an employee. The on,y differencecwas that they couldn't ignore me then. 

As far as wasting money on soon to be obsolete machines, I have written about that numerous times and that was a big reason why I opposed de Blasio's insistence that we have 21 new SBS routes in the next ten years and the MTA finally agreed with me. 

I agree, what's the point of putting bus lanes if buses can't even use them?

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

You've been playing them in the past week or so in this discussion alone.... Again, you say you don't play games - Well how is it that I reference a post with which you clearly twisted what I said to try to make my point less sensible ("game" #1), I later bring up the fact that was done in a specific post (1770), you COMPLETELY evaded that & made a reference to an ENTIRELY different post ("game" #2)..... No reference of "post 1746" was ever made by me, as it related to you blatantly twisting what I said.... Cut the crap.

To tell me that you disagree with increased distance having to add runtime if you're changing the route, would be you disregarding simple mathematics... You are proposing an extension.... This has gotten sad at this point.

You are trying to be right & exalt yourself as all-knowing & everyone else as being beneath you..... The problem is never you in any situation, it is always someone else... You only respect the opinion of people when it fits your narrative.... You can sit there & paint yourself in this light of being this fair, balanced, unproblematic person - The fact of the matter is, for some, it's difficult & absolutely aggravating to have an intelligent discussion with someone that have the character traits that you do....

As far as the summarized retorts to your suggestion..... You say "make the route work then you can consider route changes to make it work better." - Seriously now, that blasé type of a comment can be said any suggestion; oh, just make it work better...

Next retort, It's disgusting that you will support overcrowding, just to have this suggestion of yours passed off as being anymore plausible than the current situation with the B44 SBS... Just remember that, when you have to stand on a bus & no one decides to get up from their seat to have you have one.... Total disregard for any other B44 SBS rider further up the line, and then you wonder why you're catching flack about this suggestion being downright selfish..... Really comes across as if you could give a damn if some sect of riders are being passed up further up the line (subjecting them to have to wait for the buses coming from Knapp) - as long as it gets all those KCC kids out of your neighborhood....

The negatives outweigh the positives, much to your belief & dismay.... A long route that already has heavy ridership, should not have more strain added to it because BrooklynBus on Nyctransitforums.com has to be right all the time....

That's just his way of painting b/o's as lazy (since we have one on here that doesn't exactly concur with this B44 SBS to KCC bit), in a further attempt to bolster the suggestion as being this grand idea.....

Just because I made a mistake by referencing an incorrect post and may have cited a list in one response when I may have meant to cite another one does not mean I am playing games. 

And as I said adding distance may not necessarily mean adding running time. For example if you change a route so that it travels a quarter mile longer, but is a faster route because there is less traffic and much fewer traffic signals, the bus may be able to cover the extra distance without any extra running time, depending on the scheduling. And as I said, that would not apply in this instance but I mentioned it because I wanted to stress that extra time is more important hat extra distance and my proposal added only about five minutes to the route. 

And now you are twisting my words and playing games. You know I don't support overcrowding. I clearly stated it is up to having proper scheduling and service on the portion of the route where it is needed to avoid overcrowding. 

You have not shown how the negatives outweigh the positives. That would require quantitative data to prove one way or the other. And don't respond that I am asking you to provide that data. That is the MTA's job and that is what I asked them to investigate. I even told them which data they need to collect when they verbally responded with some irrelevant statistics. I also explained why they were irrelevant. But instead of doing the work and investigating two years ago, they just ignored me. 

I also never made any general statement that bus drivers are lazy, although some most certainly are as with any occupation. You also have those that do their job competently under the conditions they have to work under, and those who excel at what they do. 

[BrooklynBus]

14 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

The M60SBS is worse.

I don't understand how there can be 2 buses arriving at the same time and then the next one is 35 minutes away. And this happens EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

Exactly. The MTA would have you believe that something like that is totally out of their control and it is not. Bus travel in this city is too much of a crap shoot. Sometimes it works great, sometimes it's passable, and sometimes it is pure shit. 

If the MTA can ignore the fact that it routinely takes up to two hours when the schedule calls for only one hour (B44), something is very wrong in Denmark. Maybe we have the same problem with the M60. 

Worse yet, I heard Byford state that he doesn't believe you just add runtime when a bus can't meet its schedule. I guess he was saying you attack the problem  in other ways so that the bus can go faster. But until you can do that, you must change the schedule or the buses will always be delayed and proper service will be impossible. 

[B35 via Church]

7 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

Just because I made a mistake by referencing an incorrect post and may have cited a list in one response when I may have meant to cite another one does not mean I am playing games. 

And as I said adding distance may not necessarily mean adding running time. For example if you change a route so that it travels a quarter mile longer, but is a faster route because there is less traffic and much fewer traffic signals, the bus may be able to cover the extra distance without any extra running time, depending on the scheduling. And as I said, that would not apply in this instance but I mentioned it because I wanted to stress that extra time is more important hat extra distance and my proposal added only about five minutes to the route. 

And now you are twisting my words and playing games. You know I don't support overcrowding. I clearly stated it is up to having proper scheduling and service on the portion of the route where it is needed to avoid overcrowding. 

You have not shown how the negatives outweigh the positives. That would require quantitative data to prove one way or the other. And don't respond that I am asking you to provide that data. That is the MTA's job and that is what I asked them to investigate. I even told them which data they need to collect when they verbally responded with some irrelevant statistics. I also explained why they were irrelevant. But instead of doing the work and investigating two years ago, they just ignored me. 

I also never made any general statement that bus drivers are lazy, although some most certainly are as with any occupation. You also have those that do their job competently under the conditions they have to work under, and those who excel at what they do. 

Alright... and by that logic, you haven't shown how the positives outweigh the negatives either... So that takes care of that...

Actually, I don't know that you support overcrowding; don't tell me what I "know" about you.... I especially wouldn't know it with this support of yours of running B44's to KCC....

Much as you'd like to thwart matters, there's nothing being twisted here.... These words, verbatim, emanated from the likes of you:

"The other reason is that too many people would use the route if the change were made. How is that a bad thing?

How in the world would too many people using the route NOT be a bad thing? Too many people trying to cram onto a some bus is tantamount to overcrowding....

[BrooklynBus]

20 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

I agree, what's the point of putting bus lanes if buses can't even use them?

Exactly. There is no point. But the problem is that the agencies are just too parochial with everyone blaming another one for the problems instead of everyone working together to solve the problem. The MTA blames the cars and DOT. DOT blames the police for lack of enforcement. Then some blame Uber. But Uber only works because the bus system is deficient and that is because the MTA doesn't consider Uber users as part of demand when designing service levels. So everything is interrelated and requires a multifaceted approach. 

Lanes are blocked because of double parkers. Trucks are the biggest offenders be abuse they double park for hours not minutes just to drop someone off. That is because there are inadequate delivery zones. But when you try to increase their numbers, the commercial establishments protest claiming they are losing business.

DOT sets up pilot programs to clear lanes but goes overboard by not tailoring the hours to only when they are needed and makes them 7 to 10 and 4 to 7 which is way too long in many areas. Sometimes it is only needed in one direction, but we have agencies who can only think in term of lowest common denominator so,unions that don't work instead of tailoring solutions to specific needs. 

The MTA and DOT are only interested in theoretical. They just want to expand bus lanes and don't care about enforcement. They will brag about how good priority signals are for buses but will take more than ten years to actually implement them. But when they try to justify SBS and exclusive lanes, they talk about how it should work and make promises without considering how they are actually working. 

[BrooklynBus]

1 minute ago, B35 via Church said:

Alright... and by that logic, you haven't shown how the positives outweigh the negatives either... So that takes care of that...

Actually, I don't know that you support overcrowding; don't tell me what I "know" about you.... I especially wouldn't know it with this support of yours of running B44's to KCC....

Much as you'd like to thwart matters, there's nothing being twisted here.... These words, verbatim, emanated from the likes of you:

"The other reason is that too many people would use the route if the change were made. How is that a bad thing?

How in the world would too many people using the route NOT be a bad thing? Too many people trying to cram onto a some bus is tantamount to overcrowding....

Yes, I haven't shown how the positives outweigh the negatives because I didn't post the three pages I wrote discussing the proposal that I sent to the MTA. 

Yes I did ask how "too many people" using a route would be a bad thing. But I also acknowledged that if buses would become overcrowded on a portion of the route, you don't leave it at that and call it a day. You adjust the service so it isn't overcrowded. 

Remember that when I made this proposal I had no idea that buses take twice as long to meet their schedule. That has to be addressed before any route change can even be considered. 

[B35 via Church]

55 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

Yes, I haven't shown how the positives outweigh the negatives because I didn't post the three pages I wrote discussing the proposal that I sent to the MTA. 

Yes I did ask how "too many people" using a route would be a bad thing. But I also acknowledged that if buses would become overcrowded on a portion of the route, you don't leave it at that and call it a day. You adjust the service so it isn't overcrowded. 

Remember that when I made this proposal I had no idea that buses take twice as long to meet their schedule. That has to be addressed before any route change can even be considered. 

Well who's fault is that you're not exactly up on current events?

You have people on here that are - regardless of your futile attempts to try to minimize what we've been saying about this suggestion of yours.... Simply saying make it work, is far easier said than done - and quite frankly, you're being rather vague with this whole *adjust the service so buses won't be overcrowded* bit.... You're the same person that's been relaying how many KCC students are down there piling onto B1's & B49's - and with the people these B44's SBS' will take from off the B36, there isn't any adjusting in the world that wouldn't have buses resulting in any overcrowding, especially by time it gets to Interested Rider's neck of the woods (Av X).... Especially if you're talking about sending every other trip down in your neck of the woods.....

You seem to be of this mindset that, if SBS were to be sped up, it would further justify B44's to KCC.... SBS' should be sped up for the current riders of the route, separate & regardless of any pie in the sky, overkill proposal.....

 

[BrooklynBus]

19 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Well who's fault is that you're not exactly up on current events?

You have people on here that are - regardless of your futile attempts to try to minimize what we've been saying about this suggestion of yours.... Simply saying make it work, is far easier said than done - and quite frankly, you're being rather vague with this whole *adjust the service so buses won't be overcrowded* bit.... You're the same person that's been relaying how many KCC students are down there piling onto B1's & B49's - and with the people these B44's SBS' will take from off the B36, there isn't any adjusting in the world that wouldn't have buses resulting in any overcrowding, especially by time it gets to Interested Rider's neck of the woods (Av X).... Especially if you're talking about sending every other trip down in your neck of the woods.....

You seem to be of this mindset that, if SBS were to be sped up, it would further justify B44's to KCC.... SBS' should be sped up for the current riders of the route, separate & regardless of any pie in the sky, overkill proposal.....

 

The MTA should have the resources to be able to estimate how many riders would be transferring from the various crosstown routes to use the B44 SBS instead of the slower B49. If the SBS is not faster, that is a different problem that needs addressing. 

Based on that forecasting they should be able to determine which parts of the route merits additional service. But as I said, the route first has to run decently before any of this is attempted. If the service is as bad as the operator(s) claim, that needs to be addressed first. 

You seem to have your mind made up this is a bad idea no matter what I say, so there is no reason to attempt to change it. And I am saying that because of your characterization that this is a pie in the sky overkill proposal, when there is nothing pie in the sky about it and it does have some support, but not by the people on this forum. 

[B35 via Church]

30 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

The MTA should have the resources to be able to estimate how many riders would be transferring from the various crosstown routes to use the B44 SBS instead of the slower B49. If the SBS is not faster, that is a different problem that needs addressing. 

Based on that forecasting they should be able to determine which parts of the route merits additional service. But as I said, the route first has to run decently before any of this is attempted. If the service is as bad as the operator(s) claim, that needs to be addressed first. 

You seem to have your mind made up this is a bad idea no matter what I say, so there is no reason to attempt to change it. And I am saying that because of your characterization that this is a pie in the sky overkill proposal, when there is nothing pie in the sky about it and it does have some support, but not by the people on this forum. 

I don't get you..... You're stating that things need to be addressed first on the B44 SBS, but yet you're still advocating for this proposal as if there aren't any real current problems with the thing - even though you acknowledge that there are.... Honestly, I can't wish upon a star, if I don't have a star to wish upon... I'm not going to advocate for a route suggestion, knowing the problems that exist on a given route, that would go some way to exacerbating that problem.... That's unreasonable to expect anyone with any iota of intelligence (and empathy) to do..... So yes, I have my mind made up.

Just as defiant as you were in telling me earlier in this discussion that you find my arguments unconvincing why a partial rerouting to KCC is a bad idea, although you do raise points, I still cannot side with injecting the B44 into any of what's going on down @ KCC..... I'm considering the whole route from top to bottom & not myopically hyper-focused with KCC.... I don't see why short turns have to be created somewhere, just so that every other B44 SBS can run to KCC....

My opinion isn't that nobody will support it... My opinion is that the extension is overkill & unwarranted....

[BrooklynBus]

9 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I don't get you..... You're stating that things need to be addressed first on the B44 SBS, but yet you're still advocating for this proposal as if there aren't any real current problems with the thing - even though you acknowledge that there are.... Honestly, I can't wish upon a star, if I don't have a star to wish upon... I'm not going to advocate for a route suggestion, knowing the problems that exist on a given route, that would go some way to exacerbating that problem.... That's unreasonable to expect anyone with any iota of intelligence (and empathy) to do..... So yes, I have my mind made up.

Just as defiant as you were in telling me earlier in this discussion that you find my arguments unconvincing why a partial rerouting to KCC is a bad idea, although you do raise points, I still cannot side with injecting the B44 into any of what's going on down @ KCC..... I'm considering the whole route from top to bottom & not myopically hyper-focused with KCC.... I don't see why short turns have to be created somewhere, just so that every other B44 SBS can run to KCC....

My opinion isn't that nobody will support it... My opinion is that the extension is overkill & unwarranted....

I thought I made myself clear. Yes, I am still advocating for this proposal. I also stated that before this or any other route change be considered, the current reliability issues must be addressed. I do not see any inconsistency between these two statements. 

The reason you create short turn are to to tailor service to demand to make it more efficient and to make service more reliable so a delay at one end of the route does not carry all the way down to the other one. Short turn service can help minimize delays. So by creating more short turns my proposal could help to make service more reliable. 

On a side note, I just reread an old news article where the MTA claimed B44 SBS sped passenger trips by 31 percent. If that is true, which I highly doubt, that means it previously took buses like 2 1/2 hours to make a trip end to end, which would also have been twice what the schedule allowed if it currently takes nearly two hours. 

Fifty years ago, there were many more short turns than there are today, but they were eliminated as a cost cutting measure. That is one of the reasons service I believe Maximum waits are greater today on many routes. The B46 which operated between Avenue N and WBP had short turns at DeKalb, Fulton, Eastern Parkway, Church Avenue and Avenue H and you never had to wait more than 10 minutes for a bus except at night when it was every 20 minutes. Today you often hear of waits of 30 to 45 minutes without a bus. 

Edited September 5, 2018 by BrooklynBus

[WestFarms36]

15 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

You've been playing them in the past week or so in this discussion alone.... Again, you say you don't play games - Well how is it that I reference a post with which you clearly twisted what I said to try to make my point less sensible ("game" #1), I later bring up the fact that was done in a specific post (1770), you COMPLETELY evaded that & made a reference to an ENTIRELY different post ("game" #2)..... No reference of "post 1746" was ever made by me, as it related to you blatantly twisting what I said.... Cut the crap.

To tell me that you disagree with increased distance having to add runtime if you're changing the route, would be you disregarding simple mathematics... You are proposing an extension.... This has gotten sad at this point.

You are trying to be right & exalt yourself as all-knowing & everyone else as being beneath you..... The problem is never you in any situation, it is always someone else... You only respect the opinion of people when it fits your narrative.... You can sit there & paint yourself in this light of being this fair, balanced, unproblematic person - The fact of the matter is, for some, it's difficult & absolutely aggravating to have an intelligent discussion with someone that have the character traits that you do....

As far as the summarized retorts to your suggestion..... You say "make the route work then you can consider route changes to make it work better." - Seriously now, that blasé type of a comment can be said any suggestion; oh, just make it work better...

Next retort, It's disgusting that you will support overcrowding, just to have this suggestion of yours passed off as being anymore plausible than the current situation with the B44 SBS... Just remember that, when you have to stand on a bus & no one decides to get up from their seat to have you have one.... Total disregard for any other B44 SBS rider further up the line, and then you wonder why you're catching flack about this suggestion being downright selfish..... Really comes across as if you could give a damn if some sect of riders are being passed up further up the line (subjecting them to have to wait for the buses coming from Knapp) - as long as it gets all those KCC kids out of your neighborhood....

The negatives outweigh the positives, much to your belief & dismay.... A long route that already has heavy ridership, should not have more strain added to it because BrooklynBus on Nyctransitforums.com has to be right all the time....

That's just his way of painting b/o's as lazy (since we have one on here that doesn't exactly concur with this B44 SBS to KCC bit), in a further attempt to bolster the suggestion as being this grand idea.....

I can tell he find Bus Operators as Hostile Führer's that have no equivalent Importance in their jobs day in and day out. He has also made subtle references about them not having common sense, how obscene and immature that is? Like the double standard and Hypocrisy is so clear.

[B35 via Church]

42 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

I thought I made myself clear. Yes, I am still advocating for this proposal. I also stated that before this or any other route change be considered, the current reliability issues must be addressed. I do not see any inconsistency between these two statements. 

The reason you create short turn are to to tailor service to demand to make it more efficient and to make service more reliable so a delay at one end of the route does not carry all the way down to the other one. Short turn service can help minimize delays. So by creating more short turns my proposal could help to make service more reliable. 

On a side note, I just reread an old news article where the MTA claimed B44 SBS sped passenger trips by 31 percent. If that is true, which I highly doubt, that means it previously took buses like 2 1/2 hours to make a trip end to end, which would also have been twice what the schedule allowed if it currently takes nearly two hours. 

Fifty years ago, there were many more short turns than there are today, but they were eliminated as a cost cutting measure. That is one of the reasons service I believe Maximum waits are greater today on many routes. The B46 which operated between Avenue N and WBP had short turns at DeKalb, Fulton, Eastern Parkway, Church Avenue and Avenue H and you never had to wait more than 10 minutes for a bus except at night when it was every 20 minutes. Today you often hear of waits of 30 to 45 minutes without a bus. 

I wasn't trying to portray any inconsistency.... The point being made there is that, it flat out doesn't make sense to advocate for a suggestion that has a prerequisite of significant events (dealing with reliability) that apparently needs to happen first.... If the shoe was on the other foot & I was getting some serious criticism about a route change I'm not exactly up on game on (translation in this case, up to current events with) - especially if I was told that a route I'm suggesting be prolonged, takes almost, if not 2 hours to get from one end to the next, the last thing I would be doing is still advocating for that extension to happen..... I'm not that rigid.

Again, making buses more reliable should be a priority, regardless if some route gets extended or not, regardless if there any naysayers or not to your specific suggestion.... I'm much more focused/concerned on the MTA rectifying the lagginess of the B44 SBS' during the rush, than splitting half the SBS service elsewhere (even if your suggestion didn't entail an extension)....

I know what a short turn is; I'm quite sure I've been the most vocal person on here about them (in a positive way).... What's being asked is, why does (or should) short turns even have to be created to facilitate extending buses to KCC? That wasn't a 2-part question btw..... Way I see it, it defeats the purpose to want to prolong a route that already sees high very high patronage, that travels a long enough distance in its own regard - and then create short turns on top of it.... Logically speaking, it's not much different than drawing up/suggesting some long winded route, then trying to justify it by saying it should be a LTD (which was a phenomenon that was ongoing on here a handful of years or so ago, that I'm glad that died out)....

When it comes to the MTA's snake oil advertising of SBS & their embellishments of its success(es), I put no stock in it.....

The assessment of waits for buses (generally speaking) being longer than yesteryear, due to more routes traveling the full route, I can concur with.... The catch-22 with that though is, we can't really go apeshit having a bunch of routes short turning all over the place either; should be done in moderation/within reason IMO.....

[BrooklynBus]

7 hours ago, WestFarms36 said:

I can tell he find Bus Operators as Hostile Führer's that have no equivalent Importance in their jobs day in and day out. He has also made subtle references about them not having common sense, how obscene and immature that is? Like the double standard and Hypocrisy is so clear.

I never made any general statement about bus operator not having common sense, although I may have cited specific instances where that was the case. 

There is no hypocrisy or double standard. I respect what they have to do day in and day out and the difficult conditions they work under. 

But I also resent when they take advantage of the system. I have witnessed at leased on incident where a dispatcher was working with the bus operator to give him needless overtime which I fully documented while not at all helping the passengers. 

Unlike the MTA however, I don't believe overtime is bad. It is necessary when it is needed.

Of course as a bus operator, you will defend everyone of them regardless of their behavior.  As I said there are good , fair, horrible, as well as excellent bus operators and there is nothing hypocritical about say that.

[BrooklynBus]

7 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I wasn't trying to portray any inconsistency.... The point being made there is that, it flat out doesn't make sense to advocate for a suggestion that has a prerequisite of significant events (dealing with reliability) that apparently needs to happen first.... If the shoe was on the other foot & I was getting some serious criticism about a route change I'm not exactly up on game on (translation in this case, up to current events with) - especially if I was told that a route I'm suggesting be prolonged, takes almost, if not 2 hours to get from one end to the next, the last thing I would be doing is still advocating for that extension to happen..... I'm not that rigid.

Again, making buses more reliable should be a priority, regardless if some route gets extended or not, regardless if there any naysayers or not to your specific suggestion.... I'm much more focused/concerned on the MTA rectifying the lagginess of the B44 SBS' during the rush, than splitting half the SBS service elsewhere (even if your suggestion didn't entail an extension)....

I know what a short turn is; I'm quite sure I've been the most vocal person on here about them (in a positive way).... What's being asked is, why does (or should) short turns even have to be created to facilitate extending buses to KCC? That wasn't a 2-part question btw..... Way I see it, it defeats the purpose to want to prolong a route that already sees high very high patronage, that travels a long enough distance in its own regard - and then create short turns on top of it.... Logically speaking, it's not much different than drawing up/suggesting some long winded route, then trying to justify it by saying it should be a LTD (which was a phenomenon that was ongoing on here a handful of years or so ago, that I'm glad that died out)....

When it comes to the MTA's snake oil advertising of SBS & their embellishments of its success(es), I put no stock in it.....

The assessment of waits for buses (generally speaking) being longer than yesteryear, due to more routes traveling the full route, I can concur with.... The catch-22 with that though is, we can't really go apeshit having a bunch of routes short turning all over the place either; should be done in moderation/within reason IMO.....

I see your points.

We obviously have a difference of opinion so let's leave it at that. 

Edited September 5, 2018 by BrooklynBus

[WestFarms36]

3 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

I never made any general statement about bus operator not having common sense, although I may have cited specific instances where that was the case. 

There is no hypocrisy or double standard. I respect what they have to do day in and day out and the difficult conditions they work under. 

But I also resent when they take advantage of the system. I have witnessed at leased on incident where a dispatcher was working with the bus operator to give him needless overtime which I fully documented while not at all helping the passengers. 

Unlike the MTA however, I don't believe overtime is bad. It is necessary when it is needed.

Of course as a bus operator, you will defend everyone of them regardless of their behavior.  As I said there are good , fair, horrible, as well as excellent bus operators and there is nothing hypocritical about say that.

Not going to lie, but there are operators that are just ass-holes and shouldn't deserve to even seek a position as a public servant. I feel that everyone should take a share on +SBS+ routes and the upcoming route redesign, and that doesn't make a clusterf*ck of a system as we've seen with certain express routes in Staten Island.

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, WestFarms36 said:

Not going to lie, but there are operators that are just ass-holes and shouldn't deserve to even seek a position as a public servant. I feel that everyone should take a share on +SBS+ routes and the upcoming route redesign, and that doesn't make a clusterf*ck of a system as we've seen with certain express routes in Staten Island.

Fully agree.

[East New York]

This thread will be to discuss all pending and planned SBS routes throughout the 5 boroughs. Planning calls for these routes to be rolled out through the next decade. For discussion about current SBS service, please refer to the existing, and recently renamed General SBS Discussion Thread.

 

Listed below are all the planned SBS routes as of September 9, 2018. Current priority is B82, M14, and S90. Please remember all information is subject to change without notice. 

 

Bronx Division

Bx3, Bx9, Bx15, Bx19, Bx28/38, Bx36, Bx40/42

 

Brooklyn Division

B6, B15, B35, B38*, B41, B82

*New Brooklyn Crosstown SBS may end up being some version of the B38 SBS vs an all new route.

 

Manhattan Division

M14, M96

 

Queens Division**

Q6, Q12, Q25, Q27, Q43, Q46, Q58, Q65, Q66 to Manhattan, Q85, Q113/114

** Please note Queens will be the last borough to undergo bus redesign. All planned SBS services for this borough will be put on hold until 2021. 

 

Staten Island

S90 or Some new SBS form of it.

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2019 by East New York

[Express Bus Operator]

So now we know the sbs82 suppose to start next month. What might be the next route in brooklyn to become sbs after the 82 or will they go to another borough first before returning back to Brooklyb establishment?......

[King Transit]

I thought the B6 doesn't need +SBS because, UP always have tons of operators driving fast with courteousy (Top of their game).

Edited September 11, 2018 by East New York

[Future ENY OP]

1 minute ago, King Transit said:

I thought the B6 doesn't need +SBS because, UP always have tons of operators driving fast with courteousy(Top of their game).

Here’s the thing with the B6. Yes UP have excellent drivers who handle the line. However, the 6 is suffering with traffic woes on Avenue J and Bay Parkway. Some stops can use elimination in favor of the local. Right now. Too early to tell for the B6!