SUBWAY - Random Thoughts Topic

[Deucey]

12 hours ago, Collin said:

I know the 42nd Street Shuttle reconstruction is supposed convert it from 3 tracks to 2 tracks, but I was thinking that if track 2 were restored to service and track 3 kept in service, it would be possible to run up to 4 trains.  They would load at each end simultaneously then meet in the middle.  

Where would the platforms go since one track had to be removed for the three-track setup to run independently and platform?

[Collin]

It would look something like this.  https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LUoJWyxgpIn9ZSNegmlIKn14C2Ie18OJ/view?usp=sharing

[Lex]

4 hours ago, Collin said:

It would look something like this.  https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LUoJWyxgpIn9ZSNegmlIKn14C2Ie18OJ/view?usp=sharing

That'll inevitably lead to a train getting locked out.

[Collin]

What does locked out mean in this context?

[Theli11]

2 hours ago, Collin said:

What does locked out mean in this context?

The Shuttle isn't going to run perfectly, so it's just going to force the train to leave within an exact interval. Something happens in Times Square, (between the time the   train [from GC] departs and when it reaches the track switch, the train gets locked out. Especially if the train breaks down, there's no alternate tracking it can go on. 

[MHV9218]

This came up on Subchat, all credit via Bill Newkirk Images. I have never seen anything like this before. R-1 mockup featuring fascinating rollsigns. That's a 34, indicating a proposed BMT continuation of numbered lines (1-16) via the to-be-constructed IND system, with a strikethrough indicating a short-turn. Then there's a 181st St. terminal rollsign (never showed up on the real signs), and a number board following the BMT font style. I can only imagine if any of those rollsigns still exist today.

Newkirk Images:

[CenSin]

15 hours ago, Theli11 said:

The Shuttle isn't going to run perfectly, so it's just going to force the train to leave within an exact interval. Something happens in Times Square, (between the time the   train [from GC] departs and when it reaches the track switch, the train gets locked out. Especially if the train breaks down, there's no alternate tracking it can go on. 

I’ll add that the lock-out case would still kick in even if there were only 3 trains and ❌ switches between tracks 2 and 3 at both ends. The configuration with only 2 trains and 2 tracks greatly simplifies the handling of certain conditions:

1. Train breaks down on track 1 at Times Square ⇒ don’t move train on track 1; have passengers wait for the next train on track 4
2. Train breaks down on track 4 at Times Square ⇒ don’t move train on track 4; have passengers wait for the next train on track 1
3. Train breaks down on track 1 at Grand Central ⇒ don’t move train on track 1; have passengers wait for the next train on track 4
4. Train breaks down on track 4 at Grand Central ⇒ don’t move train on track 4; have passengers wait for the next train on track 1
5. Any train breaks down in the middle of the tunnel ⇒ turn off power to tracks and walk passengers to the nearest station
   • What would be even better is if the space in the middle were converted into flat/level ground for walking in emergencies. The two sides of the tunnel would be partitioned off laterally and the tracks would be powered independently. If track 1 failed, then power would only be shut off to track 1 and passengers would safely walk along the space formerly dedicated to track 3 to the nearest platform. Operation of service would continue uninterrupted on track 4 at no risk to the passengers in the tunnel.

Edited May 10, 2020 by CenSin

[vioreen]

As 145th street on the 3 line was renovated, why the renovation plan did NOT include an expansion of the platforms in order for 145st street to accommodated a full length train ?

[CenSin]

10 minutes ago, vioreen said:

As 145th street on the 3 line was renovated, why the renovation plan did NOT include an expansion of the platforms in order for 145st street to accommodated a full length train ?

Tell us how that might be done.

[Deucey]

2 minutes ago, vioreen said:

As 145th street on the 3 line was renovated, why the renovation plan did NOT include an expansion of the platforms in order for 145st street to accommodated a full length train ?

It would’ve blocked the switch from WPR to Lenox Av, and shortened the distance to the 148th St Terminal.

[Calvin]

Is the ridership on the  still the same before the pandemic? I've noticed that it's running about 4-6 mins per train unlike some of the other routes with modified headways.

[Lawrence St]

9 hours ago, Deucey said:

It would’ve blocked the switch from WPR to Lenox Av, and shortened the distance to the 148th St Terminal.

And why can't it be closed if the distance is that close?

[Deucey]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

And why can't it be closed if the distance is that close?

Same reason  doesn’t go to Lefferts and  runs express in the Bronx: the people in the area want it that way.

[Lawrence St]

44 minutes ago, Deucey said:

Same reason  doesn’t go to Lefferts and  runs express in the Bronx: the people in the area want it that way.

The MTA really has to stop with the "what the people want" mentality. If that were the case back then, none of the el's would've been torn down and the Culver/Polo Grounds shuttle would still be running.

For the sake of operational common sense, it needs to change. The  should be the Bronx Express, the should run to Lefferts, 145th St should be closed, the shouldn't stop at 49th St, and many more.

[vioreen]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

The MTA really has to stop with the "what the people want" mentality. If that were the case back then, none of the el's would've been torn down and the Culver/Polo Grounds shuttle would still be running.

For the sake of operational common sense, it needs to change. The  should be the Bronx Express, the should run to Lefferts, 145th St should be closed, the shouldn't stop at 49th St, and many more.

MTA did try to close down 145 along the  line but the community protested, if the community protested, the MTA needs to turn 145 street into a full length platform.  

[vioreen]

12 hours ago, CenSin said:

Tell us how that might be done.

Just use a shovel and dig out those extra ends in both equal directions and it'll lead to a full length platform. 

[vioreen]

due to social distancing, MTA did so in order to avoid crowding on the train.

[Lex]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

The MTA really has to stop with the "what the people want" mentality.

Alright, look at the bus section, especially with regard to a little borough known as Queens.

[Lawrence St]

20 minutes ago, Lex said:

Alright, look at the bus section, especially with regard to a little borough known as Queens.

That's buses. Buses are easier to operate, trains aren't as easy.

[R68OnBroadway]

17 hours ago, Deucey said:

It would’ve blocked the switch from WPR to Lenox Av, and shortened the distance to the 148th St Terminal.

Given that the platform already fits about 7 cars, wouldn’t it easy to fit another 150 feet of platform before the junction?

[Trainmaster5]

18 hours ago, Deucey said:

It would’ve blocked the switch from WPR to Lenox Av, and shortened the distance to the 148th St Terminal.

I know the reason for the layout up there and anyone who took the time to study the history of the IRT would too. It’s not rocket science either. For those who advocate the closing of the station perhaps they don’t realize that 145th St-Lenox is located on a major thoroughfare and leads to the Bronx via the nearby bridge.  The bus to the Bronx stops upstairs from the subway.The 10 block distance from the 135th St station is the same distance as the IND and two blocks longer than the Broadway IRT lines to the west. The 148th terminal station is 13 blocks north and one long avenue west of the 135th St station. The 145th St station as constructed had a diamond crossover at the north end within the station limits, they ran 5 car trains back then, which led to the Lenox yard and shop. The original IRT subway yard . The present 148th St station is actually tracks 1-3 of Lenox yard. To extend the 145th st. station northward would probably necessitate reconstruction of the trackage north of the station meaning expenditure of money that would be better spent elsewhere, IMO. If the IRT was still a private company the closure of 145th St-Lenox wouldn’t  be as problematic to me but remember that the street was a major commercial thoroughfare, a money maker, Since the city takeover the old BOT, the NYCTA, and now the  , public authorities have a higher hurdle to overcome. That’s why the Franklin Shuttle still exists. Today the conflict is between the public and the operations folks. The public, through the politicians, will always have the upper hand.  Put a new person in the governorship and everyone in charge in the  not subject to civil service law, can be shown the door on day one. Public benefit. Just my observation. Carry on.

[Lex]

5 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

That's buses. Buses are easier to operate, trains aren't as easy.

That just stresses the intricacies.

[R68ACTrain]

9 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

The MTA really has to stop with the "what the people want" mentality. If that were the case back then, none of the el's would've been torn down and the Culver/Polo Grounds shuttle would still be running.

For the sake of operational common sense, it needs to change. The  should be the Bronx Express, the should run to Lefferts, 145th St should be closed, the shouldn't stop at 49th St, and many more.

No.. having the  switch at 57th-7th  would just create even more delays for the  lines... especially if a train is stationary at 57th or 49th

[Jacob]

11 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

And why can't it be closed if the distance is that close?

Because In that station, there’s a terminal haven’t you explored the station correctly? Not be rude or so.

[Jacob]

9 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

The MTA really has to stop with the "what the people want" mentality. If that were the case back then, none of the el's would've been torn down and the Culver/Polo Grounds shuttle would still be running.

For the sake of operational common sense, it needs to change. The  should be the Bronx Express, the should run to Lefferts, 145th St should be closed, the shouldn't stop at 49th St, and many more.

If the  becomes express in peak directions with  in rush hours that would mean if the Manhattan bound is express you have to take a Eastchester Dyre Avenue or Wakefield bound trains To E 180th St and wait for a Express train same thing including the other side of the platforms