SUBWAY - Random Thoughts Topic

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

In the end not sure how much money this would save though

It's a cost neutral move. It isn't saving anything since they are just moving some service around.  However, it's a service cut on some lines for people that travel Monday & Friday and a service increase on some lines for people that travel on weekends. It's also no secret that ridership tends to decrease on lines when service is cut because people don't like waiting longer for the bus or train, so they may lose revenue on the lines where they are cutting service.

I work from home now and actually avoid using the  on some days for leisure trips because I know that they run crap service on Mondays.  That is money that stays in my pocket & revenue the  doesn't get.  These are the small things that riders think about and that cost the  that doesn't show up in any stats.  Additionally, when I was on a hybrid schedule, I purposely avoided Monday & Friday, in part because of unreliable service. It must be that a lot of  workers take off those days because a lot of the scheduled service does not run (can't cover some trips on the schedule). 

[Lawrence St]

Speaking of decrease, there's been a drop in ridership at the Nassau Stations on Fulton St & Broad St.

They really should cut back the operating schedule for those two stations to what it was previously until ridership comes back up.

[darkstar8983]

7 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Speaking of decrease, there's been a drop in ridership at the Nassau Stations on Fulton St & Broad St.

They really should cut back the operating schedule for those two stations to what it was previously until ridership comes back up.

They should close those two stations full time and cut back the  to Chambers St. Running time would be saved and the need for relay operators can be utilized elsewhere. During the post Hurricane Sandy reopening the skip stop service ran just fine with terminating trains on the downtown platform at Chambers St

[biGC323232]

1 hour ago, darkstar8983 said:

They should close those two stations full time and cut back the  to Chambers St. Running time would be saved and the need for relay operators can be utilized elsewhere. During the post Hurricane Sandy reopening the skip stop service ran just fine with terminating trains on the downtown platform at Chambers St

 

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Speaking of decrease, there's been a drop in ridership at the Nassau Stations on Fulton St & Broad St.

They really should cut back the operating schedule for those two stations to what it was previously until ridership comes back up.

I disagree with both of you....They did that same exact thing back in the days...Theres a reason they sent the  back to Broad st full time and thats partly cause of the new Fulton St station Ridership which offers key connections to other lines and now PATH

[trainfan22]

I ride J & Z trains out of Broad in the PM Rush every now and then, Broad and Fulton get decent ridership, no way they should be cut. Fulton is even well used on Saturdays.

Edited December 30, 2022 by trainfan22

[AlgorithmOfTruth]

1 hour ago, darkstar8983 said:

They should close those two stations full time and cut back the  to Chambers St. Running time would be saved and the need for relay operators can be utilized elsewhere. During the post Hurricane Sandy reopening the skip stop service ran just fine with terminating trains on the downtown platform at Chambers St

If the  were to permanently terminate at Chambers Street, you're going to screw over lots of people that take the train to Fulton Street for the . I lived off the  for over 25 years and being able to make those transfers when they became available full-time at Fulton Street really helped. Also, I would take the  to Broad Street and walk to the Staten Island Ferry after work, as did many other people. Closing those last two stations on the line would affect lots of people that depend on it. Do you have experience taking the  in Lower Manhattan at several different times of day over the past few years?

[R32 3838]

I really try to be nice but some of you are really special for wanting cuts just because. Fulton Center is the reason why those 2 stations are open 24/7. It shows that half of you are more foamers than people who actually who use the line as commuters. Just like the morons who always cry about the train and how it should be cut for no reason. Y'all weren't saying that when them R32s were dominating it but as soon as they went away, all of a sudden the shouldn't exist. 

 

42 minutes ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

If the  were to permanently terminate at Chambers Street, you're going to screw over lots of people that take the train to Fulton Street for the . I lived off the  for over 25 years and being able to make those transfers when they became available full-time at Fulton Street really helped. Also, I would take the  to Broad Street and walk to the Staten Island Ferry after work, as did many other people. Closing those last two stations on the line would affect lots of people that depend on it. Do you have experience taking the  in Lower Manhattan at several different times of day over the past few years?

None of these cats ride the line to understand why things are the way they are. They don't care since it doesn't effect their lines.

 

 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Close Broad St, which is in the heart of the Financial District... Oh and Nassau St too... LOL 

[Around the Horn]

Anyone who suggests cutting the from Broad to Chambers should be laughed out of the room. Point blank period end of discussion.

[Wallyhorse]

7 hours ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

If the  were to permanently terminate at Chambers Street, you're going to screw over lots of people that take the train to Fulton Street for the . I lived off the  for over 25 years and being able to make those transfers when they became available full-time at Fulton Street really helped. Also, I would take the  to Broad Street and walk to the Staten Island Ferry after work, as did many other people. Closing those last two stations on the line would affect lots of people that depend on it. Do you have experience taking the  in Lower Manhattan at several different times of day over the past few years?

And the only way I would do that is if the  was moved to Nassau (with the becoming full-time) to help it in Brooklyn. 

[Lawrence St]

And yet I didn’t hear any of you having this much opposition when those stations were closed on weekends. 
 

The point is, unless TA gets more money, service cuts are going to come, and they are going to have to make cuts in places where there is little to no ridership. 
 

And @R32 3838 watch who your calling a foamer. You know just as well as I do if the TA didn’t have money the  would be the first line to get service cuts.

[Lawrence St]

4 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

And yet I didn’t hear any of you having this much opposition when those stations were closed on weekends. 
 

The point is, unless TA gets more money, service cuts are going to come, and they are going to have to make cuts in places where there is little to no ridership. 
 

And @R32 3838 watch who your calling a foamer. You know just as well as I do if the TA didn’t have money the  would be the first line to get service cuts.

And to add on to this, the way how I look at service cuts is the exact way  did during the 2010 cuts. 
 

Don’t give me that “you don’t use this line” excuse. I’m looking at the ridership numbers to justify my opinion, just like they did back in 2010. Unfortunately if they don’t get money, they are going to cut service where it’s least used. This isn’t a “foamer” mentality, it’s buisness.

And to just to recap what they might do if they get into another budget crisis:

No  service in Brooklyn.

Weekend  service ends at Myrtle Ave-Wycoff Ave.

Fulton St & Broad St  closed during Sundays.

 eliminated except TPH would be decreased.

 eliminated. Again.

 late night service eliminated. 

[trainfan22]

Chambers and Broad were closed on weekends years before this site even existed, so posters on here didn't even have an platform to complain about closing those stops on weekends cause social media and this forum didn't exist yet!

 

 

I remember riding trains terminating at Chambers on weekends in 2004.

 

 

There's no fat to trim in regards to service cuts on the subway, no way the would be cut short two stops in the city. Most of the system is pretty well used during the day and early evenings. 

[trainfan22]

6 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

And to add on to this, the way how I look at service cuts is the exact way  did during the 2010 cuts. 
 

Don’t give me that “you don’t use this line” excuse. I’m looking at the ridership numbers to justify my opinion, just like they did back in 2010. Unfortunately if they don’t get money, they are going to cut service where it’s least used. This isn’t a “foamer” mentality, it’s buisness.

And to just to recap what they might do if they get into another budget crisis:

No  service in Brooklyn.

Weekend  service ends at Myrtle Ave-Wycoff Ave.

Fulton St & Broad St  closed during Sundays.

 eliminated except TPH would be decreased.

 eliminated. Again.

 late night service eliminated. 

J & Z line ridership is too high to eliminate the . When the TA suggested to eliminate it in 2010, they realized they would have to replace all of the train runs with runs to meet the demand, the line is that busy during the rush.

 

 

 

No way the would be able to handle Brighton by itself on weekdays, it can barely handle the Brighton on weekends! 

 

 

I don't think closing two stops for one day saves much money, Fulton is probably busy on Sundays

[darkstar8983]

I have a question - I know that Queens Blvd now has 3 Queens-Manhattan tunnels, but I wonder how they did reroutes and weekend GOs before the 63 St connector

[T to Dyre Avenue]

11 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

Anyone who suggests cutting the from Broad to Chambers should be laughed out of the room. Point blank period end of discussion.

To be fair, the actually did it back in 1990. To Canal St, in fact. I mean, it was only on weekends and there was no Fulton Transit Center like today, but still. But I agree, cutting the  back to Chambers is the wrong way.

2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Don’t give me that “you don’t use this line” excuse. I’m looking at the ridership numbers to justify my opinion, just like they did back in 2010. Unfortunately if they don’t get money, they are going to cut service where it’s least used. This isn’t a “foamer” mentality, it’s buisness.

And to just to recap what they might do if they get into another budget crisis:

No  service in Brooklyn.

Weekend  service ends at Myrtle Ave-Wycoff Ave.

Fulton St & Broad St  closed during Sundays.

 eliminated except TPH would be decreased.

 eliminated. Again.

 late night service eliminated. 

Because there aren’t other options for saving money besides cutting subway service back to dreaded 2010, 1990 or 1976 levels? Is there not enough money to be saved by streamlining operations or cutting back on managerial positions? I mean, it’s not by accident that the  has a reputation for being known as an agency with “lots of generals and not enough soldiers.” Maybe if some of these “generals” could either retire or be made to leave the agency some other way, we could start making the most of existing infrastructure instead of taking the knee-jerk attitude of “cut cut cut” every time there’s a budget crisis (some of which were self-inflicted, like 1975-76, 1990 and 2008-10).
 

15 hours ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

If the  were to permanently terminate at Chambers Street, you're going to screw over lots of people that take the train to Fulton Street for the . I lived off the  for over 25 years and being able to make those transfers when they became available full-time at Fulton Street really helped. Also, I would take the  to Broad Street and walk to the Staten Island Ferry after work, as did many other people. Closing those last two stations on the line would affect lots of people that depend on it. Do you have experience taking the  in Lower Manhattan at several different times of day over the past few years?

Agreed. The  is not a useless line. Maybe it doesn’t have the ridership it once had, but yes, it gets ridership. And it would do even better if we had a transit agency that would learn how to cooperate better with the City and learn from the best practices of other transit agencies. 

Edited December 30, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[R32 3838]

2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

And to add on to this, the way how I look at service cuts is the exact way  did during the 2010 cuts. 
 

Don’t give me that “you don’t use this line” excuse. I’m looking at the ridership numbers to justify my opinion, just like they did back in 2010. Unfortunately if they don’t get money, they are going to cut service where it’s least used. This isn’t a “foamer” mentality, it’s buisness.

And to just to recap what they might do if they get into another budget crisis:

No  service in Brooklyn.

Weekend  service ends at Myrtle Ave-Wycoff Ave.

Fulton St & Broad St  closed during Sundays.

 eliminated except TPH would be decreased.

 eliminated. Again.

 late night service eliminated. 

If it doesn't come out of you pocket, STFU

 

You have idiots in the city and state trying to force people who drive $23 to go below 60th st and an agency that somehow always ends up broke. Meanwhile you have who sits there and hires unnecessary people with big salaries but running subway service on lines with low ridership is bad.

 

If the city and the state wern't pushing for Congestion pricing, Then this wouldn't be a big of a deal than it is now. You can't encourage people to take mass transit whith less options. This is why there are more cars on the road than ever before. Between Albany and the , It has been a shit show for over 4 decades. 2004 was the best for subway service until 2010. And for the record they had no choice but to do cut due to the R44 retirement, There wouldn't had been enough subway cars for full service hence the and (2010-2016) being cut.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

1 hour ago, darkstar8983 said:

I have a question - I know that Queens Blvd now has 3 Queens-Manhattan tunnels, but I wonder how they did reroutes and weekend GOs before the 63 St connector

They’d do  reroutes over the . They’d reroute the  over the  (in 53rd), then the  to DeKalb. As for the, it was rerouted over the  in the event of a disruption in the 53rd St Tunnel itself. 

[Lawrence St]

12 minutes ago, R32 3838 said:

If it doesn't come out of you pocket, STFU

 

You have idiots in the city and state trying to force people who drive $23 to go below 60th st and an agency that somehow always ends up broke. Meanwhile you have who sits there and hires unnecessary people with big salaries but running subway service on lines with low ridership is bad.

 

If the city and the state wern't pushing for Congestion pricing, Then this wouldn't be a big of a deal than it is now. You can't encourage people to take mass transit whith less options. This is why there are more cars on the road than ever before. Between Albany and the , It has been a shit show for over 4 decades. 2004 was the best for subway service until 2010. And for the record they had no choice but to do cut due to the R44 retirement, There wouldn't had been enough subway cars for full service hence the and (2010-2016) being cut.

Who are you telling to STFU???

[T to Dyre Avenue]

2 hours ago, trainfan22 said:

J & Z line ridership is too high to eliminate the . When the TA suggested to eliminate it in 2010, they realized they would have to replace all of the train runs with runs to meet the demand, the line is that busy during the rush.

 

 

 

No way the would be able to handle Brighton by itself on weekdays, it can barely handle the Brighton on weekends! 

 

 

I don't think closing two stops for one day saves much money, Fulton is probably busy on Sundays

It really didn’t (and still doesn’t) surprise me that their original 2009 plan was to eliminate skip-stop and have even MORE trains dead-end in Lower Manhattan. The decision a year later to combine the  and  into the current  service may have been one of the few times in recent history (after 1975) that the  thought outside the box. 

Agreed that the  alone would be insufficient for the Brighton Line. I wouldn’t mind if the  ran express there instead of the , but getting rid of the Brighton Express entirely should definitely be a non-starter. There is a whole swath of south Brooklyn east of the Brighton where people take buses to connect with the subway at Sheepshead Bay and Kings Highway and if the only option there is a not-very frequent local , that’s going to encourage even more people to drive. That’s the LAST thing we should be doing.

[Lawrence St]

12 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

It really didn’t (and still doesn’t) surprise me that their original 2009 plan was to eliminate skip-stop and have even MORE trains dead-end in Lower Manhattan. The decision a year later to combine the  and  into the current  service may have been one of the few times in recent history (after 1975) that the  thought outside the box. 

Agreed that the  alone would be insufficient for the Brighton Line. I wouldn’t mind if the  ran express there instead of the , but getting rid of the Brighton Express entirely should definitely be a non-starter. There is a whole swath of south Brooklyn east of the Brighton where people take buses to connect with the subway at Sheepshead Bay and Kings Highway and if the only option there is a not-very frequent local , that’s going to encourage even more people to drive. That’s the LAST thing we should be doing.

It terms of which section of the  is more needed, Manhattan takes the cake because it handles all those extra loads from CPW and 6th Ave.

Maybe you can end the  at Prospect Park instead.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

14 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

It terms of which section of the  is more needed, Manhattan takes the cake because it handles all those extra loads from CPW and 6th Ave.

Maybe you can end the  at Prospect Park instead.

Can’t end the  at Prospect Park without either fouling up the  or having to run the  even less frequently than now, so relaying  trains don’t get in its way. We’ve (collectively - not just us railfans, but also the MTA and elected officials) got to think about better ways than just cutting service.  

Edited December 30, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[RandomRider0101]

8 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

If it doesn't come out of you pocket, STFU

Might wanna be careful there, this is how flame wars start.

[Mtatransit]

14 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

If it doesn't come out of you pocket, STFU

 

You have idiots in the city and state trying to force people who drive $23 to go below 60th st and an agency that somehow always ends up broke. Meanwhile you have who sits there and hires unnecessary people with big salaries but running subway service on lines with low ridership is bad.

 

If the city and the state wern't pushing for Congestion pricing, Then this wouldn't be a big of a deal than it is now. You can't encourage people to take mass transit whith less options. This is why there are more cars on the road than ever before. Between Albany and the , It has been a shit show for over 4 decades. 2004 was the best for subway service until 2010. And for the record they had no choice but to do cut due to the R44 retirement, There wouldn't had been enough subway cars for full service hence the and (2010-2016) being cut.

Well to be fair, you have a expected budget shortfall, you have to do two things to balance the budget, either increase the revenue, such as a government bailout. The congestion pricing goes to MTA's capital projects, not operations, that fare increase or reduce expense. 

Reducing expense without increasing the productivity of the workers (both managements and unions) means service reductions is probably the only option. It doesn't look like the MTA is looking very hard to save money anyways

 

But when there is service reductions, something has to go, hard decisions will have to be made

Not saying the  isn't needed or the weakest link in Brooklyn, but if there is a budget hole, the weakest link is the first one to go. 

 

The 2010 cuts was also because of budget shortfalls not R44 retirement

[R32 3838]

6 minutes ago, Mtatransit said:

Well to be fair, you have a expected budget shortfall, you have to do two things to balance the budget, either increase the revenue, such as a government bailout. The congestion pricing goes to MTA's capital projects, not operations, that fare increase or reduce expense. 

Reducing expense without increasing the productivity of the workers (both managements and unions) means service reductions is probably the only option. It doesn't look like the MTA is looking very hard to save money anyways

 

But when there is service reductions, something has to go, hard decisions will have to be made

Not saying the  isn't needed or the weakest link in Brooklyn, but if there is a budget hole, the weakest link is the first one to go. 

 

The 2010 cuts was also because of budget shortfalls not R44 retirement

 

The R44 retirement played a role in the cuts. The line fleet (R46s and the 26 R32s) went directly to the when they did the cuts which in turn was planned to wipe out the remaining R44s that were running on the but the R32s HVAC units started crapping out on the so they kept a handful of R44s by running them on the and having the R32s run on the until September when they finally retired the R44 fleet for good.  Budget was primarily the reason but also the lack of subway cars. Merging the   with the help lessen the blow of the car shortage. Plus the would have been reduced anyway due to 2nd ave construction, Around that time 63rd st where they used to lay up midday trains was not in use so they had lay up trains between times sq and 49th st. This is why the went to Astoria as well besides replacing the .

 

Cutting service is not going to be an option when you have most of NYC already angry about them wanting to go forward with congestion pricing. This would be political suicide if they allow cuts. They are going to have to really think outside the box to keep the budget balanced. The worse case scenario would to merge a line similar to the   or replace a portion of a route like example train running to Euclid ave to replace the in brooklyn (I doubt this would happen, Just an example) Or Have the only serve flatbush Rush Hours only like before or just completely cut it in brooklyn all together (I also doubt that would happen since it's un realistic but these are examples)

 

They really can't cut much like for example, The . Politics will get involved now since there would be no replacement like in 2010 (I still think Astoria doesn't need 2 services, 1 is good enough with increased service) But in reality everything will be a shitshow if they even try to cut subway service. Buses on the otherhand.......