SUBWAY - Random Thoughts Topic

[Wallyhorse]

What's the fascination with the BMT Nassau Loop about? These proposals to alter , , , and/or service to Chambers St loop station or Fourth Avenue service in Brooklyn are supposed to benefit whom ? There's a very good reason the Banker's Specials on the Fourth Avenue and Brighton Line were eliminated. They were rush hour trains that carried air. Low ridership. Even after the construction of the WTC. Perhaps some posters are too young to realize that the original WTC was considered a expensive flop when it opened. The financial district in lower Manhattan was consolidating at the time. Companies were merging and moving back offices to New Jersey or Brooklyn while the headquarters moved up to Midtown. Rent for commercial space dropped in Lower Manhattan and it still took the Federal government, the PANY&NJ, the State of NY, and the City of NY to move their outlying operations to the WTC to make the WTC somewhat successful.. Why would anyone consider adding service to the Loop now. Why do you think the is reducing trackage in the corridor? I've been saying for years that the is in the real estate business. They may not be the smartest real estate people but perhaps some of my fellow posters should read the business sections of their daily newspapers. There's been plenty of obvious hints where the City of New York, State of New York, and the are focusing. Hudson Yards, the Midtown-Grand Central area, East Side Access. Why do you think the is downgrading the LIRR Atlantic Branch to Barclay's to a shuttle service from Jamaica and sending most of the branch's present trains to Grand Central ? Trains that used to bring people from Nassau and Suffolk to Flatbush Avenue terminal and transfers to the lower Manhattan Financial District's subways. I'm not saying the Nassau Loop is being closed but I seriously doubt that anyone in power is contemplating any increase in service through the area.

Just my opinion. Carry on.

Yes, but my version is different:

 

In this version, it's mainly to alleviate a long-standing problem in Bay Ridge by having this version of the old  be one-half of a split route that would run between 95th Street and Jamaica Center, with Chambers Street (old  from Bay Ridge, from Jamaica Center) being the midway point where both halves of the line would terminate (with the exception of a handful of rush-hour trains that would continue to Broad Street since this incarnation of the old  would be a MAX of 8TPH).  In this version, the old  (going south that can have either the or or another designation) or the (going north) would NOT leave until the terminating half of the train arrives at Chambers while that half of the train would NOT relay until AFTER the "second half" of the line (old  going south, going north) departs.  

This would be done in a very specific manner that would be efficient.  

[checkmatechamp13]

Just a few items that I think warrant further discussion.

The railfan's proposal to extend the SAS across 125th St. I don't recall there being an IND or Metropolitan Railway/IRT proposal for said extension. The MR/IRT had the northern and western part of Harlem covered by the Ninth Avenue EL from the Bronx and the eastern part covered by the Second and Third Avenue ELs. The IRT constructed the Lenox Avenue Line to cover the center part of Harlem as well as the southern section bordering Central Park. The Fifth Avenue Coach Company provided crosstown bus services along the major east-west avenues. If a private company (IRT) and the city (IND) didn't see a need for rail service across a neighborhood with that population density along a major commercial street why the newfound call for this line? I was under the impression that rail service was provided to bring people from residential areas to the central business districts of Midtown and Lower Manhattan. IRT, BMT, IND,MNRR, LIRR, were mainly constructed using a direct point to point routing, weren't they?

 

Commuting patterns have changed. Percentage-wise, fewer people work in the CBD compared to before (the outer boroughs have around 40% of jobs in the city, and that doesn't even take into account Upper Manhattan). Transit demand outside of the CBD has grown faster than demand to/from it.

 

Crosstown bus service can only do so much. I remember a few weeks ago, I ran into a friend on the bus who was coming from work in East Harlem. I was coming from work on Staten Island. We both left at 3:30, and found ourselves on the same bus when I got on at St. Nicholas. That's kind of sad that a trip from (basically) the other side of the city took around the same as a crosstown trip (Granted, I timed myself for the express bus, whereas she started her trip with a 10 minute walk and 30 minute wait, so we're comparing a relatively best-case scenario on my part with a relatively worse-case scenario on her part, but still).

[Porter]

Isn't the Broadway Line closer to the World Trade Center than the Nassau Street Line?

 

Technically speaking, yes, but the is slower than the was. Also, with the Dey Street Concourse, the BMT Broadway Line is only slightly closer than the BMT Nassau Line; the difference is negligible.

 

Commuting patterns have changed. Percentage-wise, fewer people work in the CBD compared to before (the outer boroughs have around 40% of jobs in the city, and that doesn't even take into account Upper Manhattan). Transit demand outside of the CBD has grown faster than demand to/from it.

 

Crosstown bus service can only do so much.

 

I just figure that if the is going to defy our wishes for a northern terminus at Third Avenue–149th Street, we might as well push them to continue the route along 125th Street, since the tracks will be pointed in that direction anyway.

[Around the Horn]

Technically speaking, yes, but the is slower than the was. Also, with the Dey Street Concourse, the BMT Broadway Line is only slightly closer than the BMT Nassau Line; the difference is negligible.

It doesn't matter if the Nassau is faster or closer (in name only- virtually all ridership from Brooklyn is going through lower Manhattan not to Lower Manhattan), if it doesn't get people where they are going. The , for all its issues, still gets people where they are going. This Nassau wouldn't. Sure it would get full at 36th or 59th going towards 95th Street in the PM, but that's about it.

 

4th Avenue doesn't need and doesn't want Nassau Street service. It will carry air just like the . Any sort of help for the is going to have to come from Broadway (or 6th Avenue; I'd argue that more people transfer to/from the than the nowadays) to get any sort of reliable ridership base.

[Porter]

It doesn't matter if the Nassau is faster or closer (in name only- virtually all ridership from Brooklyn is going through lower Manhattan not to Lower Manhattan), if it doesn't get people where they are going. The , for all its issues, still gets people where they are going. This Nassau wouldn't. Sure it would get full at 36th or 59th going towards 95th Street in the PM, but that's about it.

 

4th Avenue doesn't need and doesn't want Nassau Street service. It will carry air just like the . Any sort of help for the is going to have to come from Broadway (or 6th Avenue; I'd argue that more people transfer to/from the than the nowadays) to get any sort of reliable ridership base.

 

Anyone commuting from Bay Ridge whose destination is Chambers Street or below would logically prefer the over the , and this would save more space on the for commuters going north of Chambers Street. Is it simply a matter of lack of demand at Chambers Street and below? I must be a minority demographic in that case.

[bobtehpanda]

Anyone commuting from Bay Ridge whose destination is Chambers Street or below would logically prefer the over the , and this would save more space on the for commuters going north of Chambers Street. Is it simply a matter of lack of demand at Chambers Street and below? I must be a minority demographic in that case.

 

The question becomes how many people are actually going to Chambers St from 4th Avenue. Given the low ridership of the when it ran to Brooklyn and the fact that Lower Manhattan is transitioning away from being an office district, it just doesn't pencil out.

[Porter]

Given the low ridership of the when it ran to Brooklyn

 

But the ran to Bay Parkway, not Bay Ridge, if that even makes a difference.

 

Lower Manhattan is transitioning away from being an office district

 

What? The media seems to boast that businesses are leaving Midtown and returning to FiDi, especially with the reconstruction of the World Trade Center. The difference now is that FiDi is also becoming a residential stronghold as well.

[biGC323232]

But the ran to Bay Parkway, not Bay Ridge, if that even makes a difference.

 

 

What? The media seems to boast that businesses are leaving Midtown and returning to FiDi, especially with the reconstruction of the World Trade Center. The difference now is that FiDi is also becoming a residential stronghold as well.

Only service that can help the  along 4 av in my opinion is the cause it offers midtown service and has a different northern terminal....But then theres the question of where the southern terminal gonna be...

[Around the Horn]

Anyone commuting from Bay Ridge whose destination is Chambers Street or below would logically prefer the over the , and this would save more space on the for commuters going north of Chambers Street. Is it simply a matter of lack of demand at Chambers Street and below? I must be a minority demographic in that case.

 

The amount of passengers per train that would be helped by the  is in the single digits. Most ridership on the in Lower Manhattan is to/from Queens or Midtown not Brooklyn, thats part of the reason why the is there too...

[Porter]

the old  (going south that can have either the or or another designation)

 

To minimize confusion and maximize flexibility and consistency, I think you should go with as your designation. The is already established, the can be confused with the , and the makes more sense as a part of the Second Avenue Subway. From what I hear, the was originally meant to be the anyway (as it directly follows the alphabetically), but coming a day after the discontinuation of the was undesirable at the time. Considering all of this, no other letter makes sense.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Skipper

[Wallyhorse]

To minimize confusion and maximize flexibility and consistency, I think you should go with as your designation. The is already established, the can be confused with the , and the makes more sense as a part of the Second Avenue Subway. From what I hear, the was originally meant to be the anyway (as it directly follows the alphabetically), but coming a day after the discontinuation of the was undesirable at the time. Considering all of this, no other letter makes sense.

 would probably work best.  In this format then, it would be (going railroad south):

 

from Jamaica Center to Chambers Street (terminating on the "express" track at Chambers).

 from Chambers Street to 95th Street-Bay Ridge in Brooklyn (running on the "local" track at Chambers)

 

The  would be waiting for the to arrive at Chambers before it leaves and would not leave until that happens since this actually would be a split route, running from Jamaica Center to 95th Street-Bay Ridge.

 

The other way, the  would come into the Chambers on the "uptown local" track where a train would be waiting on the "express" track.  ONLY once the leaves Chambers does the  do the crossover to the southbound "local" track.  

 

Late nights, the  would replace the late-night shuttle since this would be a 24/7 line.  Anyone looking for Whitehall would be able to switch to Broadway line trains at Jay-Metrotech or Court Street.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Wallyhorse

[Trainmaster5]

I think that depends on a few things. The exodus from the WTC area by the older more established firms began in the mid 90's IIRC. I'd been working the for more than a decade by that time and it was noticeable to me and some of my coworkers. The PM crowds just weren't there in the latter part of the rush. Didn't matter if I was heading uptown or to Brooklyn by 6 PM Brooklyn Bridge, Wall St, and Bowling Green seemed to have lost about a third of the crowds I'd encountered 10 years prior to that time frame. Only Fulton-Broadway Nassau remained busy because it was a transfer point. The big blow to ridership was 9/11 obviously. In the aftermath those companies that hadn't already left that part of Lower Manhattan moved most of their operations to Midtown, East or West, or across the river to New Jersey or Brooklyn's Metrotech. Many of the ancillary businesses like delis, bars, and the like also closed up shop or moved elsewhere. This included places on both sides of lower Broadway from City Hall southward. I believe that the influx you seem to be referring to is new business drawn to the area by rents that are lower than that charged in Midtown. I really doubt that any CEO or CFO of an established financial enterprise would re-locate more than a token outpost of their company in that area. To an older Brooklynite like me Lower Manhattan's Financial District was a ghost town at night, especially after 9/11. People that I knew who used to work in the area moved up to the West Village or Midtown for their after work affairs. As I pointed out earlier much of the WTC complex employees consisted of government workers. I don't know how many of those government jobs are returning to the area. As an aside I doubt that the residents of Battery Park City are regualar subway riders. My opinion though.  This is in response to the poster who mentioned businesses moving to the WTC complex.Carry on.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Trainmaster5

[Q43LTD]

Still don't understand this obsession with giving 4 Av Nassau service...

[Calvin]

On some of the 160 cars, there's something inside the window by the door walkway

Edited November 23, 2016 by CH3348

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

How do riders like the added trainsets on the weekends?

They could really add a few more while they're at it.

[Fresh Pond]

On some of the 160 cars, there's something inside the window by the door walkway

It has something to do with the new digital screens.

[Wallyhorse]

Still don't understand this obsession with giving 4 Av Nassau service...

This has more to do with giving riders in Brooklyn, especially those going to Bay Ridge more consistent service at all times since as well documented here and elsewhere there are sometimes massive gaps in the , especially at certain times. 

 

That is the purpose of what for now I'll call the "Brown  " as it would run from 95th Street-Chambers as part of what would actually be a split line with the that would between them actually cover 95th Street-Jamaica Center with a simple, cross-platform transfer at Chambers between the two lines.   This would be a 24/7 operation, with the "Brown  " replacing the late-night shuttle as previously noted since those specifically looking for Whitehall can in that scenario switch to the on the same platform at either Jay-Metrotech or Court Street (or any other local stop between 59th Street and Court).

 

Chambers Street just happens to be the easiest place to terminate such a "Brown  " and doing it with a transfer to the to continue in a seamless fashion for those continuing north or to Broadway-Brooklyn via the Willy B. 

 

 

[Around the Horn]

As a daily rider, I'd rather be inconvenienced by a late and crowded train, than some Nassau service that's getting me nowhere...

 

Any supplementary service from 95th Street to Nassau will carry air if it's only going to Chambers.

[Porter]

As a daily rider, I'd rather be inconvenienced by a late and crowded train, than some Nassau service that's getting me nowhere...

 

Any supplementary service from 95th Street to Nassau will carry air if it's only going to Chambers.

 

The (as a rebranded ) would siphon off any riders headed to Lower Manhattan, leaving the with more space for midtown commuters. Personally, I think it would be better to send the all the way to Essex Street, but I understand that the current arrangement of the station could complicate that.

 

I think some users on this forum are underestimating just how popular a destination Lower Manhattan is, and it will only increase in popularity. It's important to keep in mind just how much office space will be added with a completed World Trade Center. Also, three conjoined shopping malls (Westfield World Trade Center, Brookfield World Financial Center, and Westfield's Fulton Center) account for the largest shopping complex in NYC. If that wasn't enough, the Seaport is being rebuilt into a larger complex than had existed before, and even 28 Liberty Street (One Chase Manhattan Plaza) will become a mall. The residential population may have tripled since 9/11, but the majority of workers in these shopping complexes likely wouldn't be able to afford the new rents (I certainly couldn't). Despite the naysayers, FiDi is hot and only getting hotter. It's no longer a ghost town at night, thanks to Pace University, Fulton Street, Stone Street, and the Seaport.

 

I also predict that Bay Ridge and Flushing will explode in population once it gets too expensive to live elsewhere.

[Around the Horn]

How many times do I have to tell you there aren't any Lower Manhattan riders to siphon off?

 

ridership to/from Lower Manhattan is going to Midtown or Queens not Brooklyn. Anyone coming from Bay Ridge to Lower Manhattan bailed at Atlantic Barclays for the ...

[Wallyhorse]

How many times do I have to tell you there aren't any Lower Manhattan riders to siphon off?

 

ridership to/from Lower Manhattan is going to Midtown or Queens not Brooklyn. Anyone coming from Bay Ridge to Lower Manhattan bailed at Atlantic Barclays for the ...

There are also a lot of people in Bay Ridge who could take a  to where they can get the or (depending on Manhattan destination) or switch to the IRT at either Atlantic-Barclays or Court Street OR the at Jay Street-Metrotech for instance (and an additional transfer to the IRT and at Fulton Street and at Chambers-Brooklyn Bridge).  

 

The main purpose of such a  would be to eliminate the problems riders along 4th Avenue have had with the . 

Edited November 23, 2016 by Wallyhorse

[TeeLow]

The (as a rebranded ) would siphon off any riders headed to Lower Manhattan, leaving the with more space for midtown commuters. Personally, I think it would be better to send the all the way to Essex Street, but I understand that the current arrangement of the station could complicate that.

 

I think some users on this forum are underestimating just how popular a destination Lower Manhattan is, and it will only increase in popularity. It's important to keep in mind just how much office space will be added with a completed World Trade Center. Also, three conjoined shopping malls (Westfield World Trade Center, Brookfield World Financial Center, and Westfield's Fulton Center) account for the largest shopping complex in NYC. If that wasn't enough, the Seaport is being rebuilt into a larger complex than had existed before, and even 28 Liberty Street (One Chase Manhattan Plaza) will become a mall. The residential population may have tripled since 9/11, but the majority of workers in these shopping complexes likely wouldn't be able to afford the new rents (I certainly couldn't). Despite the naysayers, FiDi is hot and only getting hotter. It's no longer a ghost town at night, thanks to Pace University, Fulton Street, Stone Street, and the Seaport.

 

I also predict that Bay Ridge and Flushing will explode in population once it gets too expensive to live elsewhere.

I drive a yellow for 18 straight hours from 930AM Saturday to 530AM Sunday. Even after 1 in the morning there's activity along the Gold St corridor from Ann to Maiden Ln. I bring fares from MPD to FIDI often. There seems to be something jumping off at 2 Gold all the time. I usually get a fare along Water St going to LES around Orchard, Ludlow, Delancey, Rivington. From MPD to LES, FIDI seems to be the lynchpin.

[Porter]

Anyone coming from Bay Ridge to Lower Manhattan bailed at Atlantic Barclays for the ...

 

The require the same amount of stops to reach the Rector Street / Wall Street stations from Atlantic Avenue, so I'm not sure why it would be beneficial for Bay Ridge commuters to transfer at Atlantic Avenue. Even if we're just talking about reaching Manhattan, the requires five stops, the requires four stops, and the requires three stops, but the time it would take to transfer nullifies that difference anyway.

[Porter]

I drive a yellow for 18 straight hours from 930AM Saturday to 530AM Sunday. Even after 1 in the morning there's activity along the Gold St corridor from Ann to Maiden Ln. I bring fares from MPD to FIDI often. There seems to be something jumping off at 2 Gold all the time. I usually get a fare along Water St going to LES around Orchard, Ludlow, Delancey, Rivington. From MPD to LES, FIDI seems to be the lynchpin.

 

That's my crowd. I lived at 33 Gold for five years and have many friends who live at 2 Gold and the former NYU dormitory on Water Street. It's a hoppin' spot of which most New Yorkers remain unaware; they still hold that antiquated Financial-District-as-ghost-town-at-night memory. With the WTC, it's only growing, and my friend in FiDi real estate confirms it.

[TeeLow]

That's my crowd. I lived at 33 Gold for five years and have many friends who live at 2 Gold and the former NYU dormitory on Water Street. It's a hoppin' spot of which most New Yorkers remain unaware; they still hold that antiquated Financial-District-as-ghost-town-at-night memory. With the WTC, it's only growing, and my friend in FiDi real estate confirms it.

Man you and your peeps damsho know how to party. About 2 months back I picked up two fab femmes at Maiden and Water, took them to a club on Center btn Broome & Kenmare. By sheer luck I caught them again about an hour later on Delancey near Ludlow. Now there were 4 of them(!) headed to Berry & N. 11th in the Burg, another late night spot for the Gennys. You get down like that?