Manhattan Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[Future ENY OP]

7 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Yes I agree with most of your points, the m18 would help out the m101

And reviving the m6 would have been the smart thing to do 

Also for you and @B35 via Church how would you declutter Abingdon sq 

This was something I partly mentioned last week was to leave the M11 alone solely as the terminal. However, you also have the M14A there too. I’d leave it alone for late nights and daytime terminate at 23rd-Chelsea Piers. 

My personal gripe with Abington Sq is that you have so many buses there but the real service technically starts at 14th and 8th. I personally don’t think the other stops before 14th and 8th are utilized. 

[B35 via Church]

19 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Im iffy about a combined m12 cause it will get it's butt whipped 

And my concern about extending the m10 was to declutter Columbus 

Lol.... "butt whipped", in reference to what?

Anyway, the M10 doesn't actually terminate at Columbus Circle..... So unless you want to truncate the route somewhere north of it, extending it somewhere south of it for de-cluttering purposes, is pointless.....

FTR, I'm not exactly concurring with cutting the M5 to Columbus Circle, but again, you can still have it, the M10, and the M12 ending in the general vicinity....

19 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Also for you and @B35 via Church how would you declutter Abingdon sq 

I don't really think Abingdon is cluttered; well, to the point where it affects anything anyway....

The problem I more have with Abingdon sq. itself is its uselessness (even for M11 pax.)..... It's a wonder why you had people suggesting M12's be extended southward, before the route even started service!

[WorkerX]

My opinion of the 101 (and the whole Lex / 3 Av routes) would be:

101: Ft George - 96th St

102: Limited south of 116th and Lex / 3rd

103: Unchanged 

Of course with the shortening of the 101, I would reallocate those buses to the 102 and 103. Those buses bunch too much and with a shortened 101, you don't need the same headways on it anymore.

Sidenote: I also get rid of that 116th and Park stop for NB 102s / WB 116s

[EastFlatbushLarry]

38 minutes ago, WorkerX said:

My opinion of the 101 (and the whole Lex / 3 Av routes) would be:

101: Ft George - 96th St

102: Limited south of 116th and Lex / 3rd

103: Unchanged 

Of course with the shortening of the 101, I would reallocate those buses to the 102 and 103. Those buses bunch too much and with a shortened 101, you don't need the same headways on it anymore.

Sidenote: I also get rid of that 116th and Park stop for NB 102s / WB 116s

i actually agree with this except I'd rather not send 101's to 96 street. I'd prefer for the 101 to terminate near 126 street depot (seeing as the layover space will be allegedly vacated by the m100 due to the redesigned network)

[B35 via Church]

Just now, EastFlatbushLarry said:

i actually agree with this except I'd rather not send 101's to 96 street. I'd prefer for the 101 to terminate near 126 street depot (seeing as the layover space will be allegedly vacated by the m100 due to the redesigned network)

I don't agree with either; an M100 cutback to 125th or a M101 cutback to 96th full time..... Just about whenever I'm on 125th & notice those M101 short turns, they are undeniably more empty than the buses going to 8th....

Whether it be having the M102 run LTD south of 116th or having the M103 run LTD north of 8th, I'd be for either, over maintaining the M101 as the 3rd/Lex LTD service.....

 

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

So I've been developing my own plan of a redesign of Manhattan's bus system over the past few months. I have some maps, along with a description of service levels. While there are multiple route changes, there are also service span changes. Anyways, here's what I have compiled:

Daytime Map

Overnight Map

Route Details

[B35 via Church]

51 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

So I've been developing my own plan of a redesign of Manhattan's bus system over the past few months. I have some maps, along with a description of service levels. While there are multiple route changes, there are also service span changes. Anyways, here's what I have compiled:

Daytime Map

Overnight Map

Route Details

Your M10 on the daytime map is labeled as running between "Harlem - Chelsea Piers", but what you have drawn is the current/real M10....

[MysteriousBtrain]

1 hour ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

So I've been developing my own plan of a redesign of Manhattan's bus system over the past few months. I have some maps, along with a description of service levels. While there are multiple route changes, there are also service span changes. Anyways, here's what I have compiled:

Daytime Map

Overnight Map

Route Details

Overall nice concept just a bit of nitpicking.

The M104/Bx33 is a neat combo on paper but is it really a good idea to combine the two? I also noticed that you extended the Bx15 back to Lex-125 as part of the Redesign. If the Bx33 was extended to 12 Av and tampered a bit in Harlem (maybe 125 St between 5 Av and 12 Av instead of west of Douglas; maybe the M1/104 could extend along 135 St to replace lost service) I could go for this rather than an M125.

Also noticed you merged the M57 into the M31 and west end is replaced by an extended M72. This one seems iffy. I do like the concept of the M72 via 79 St. What I would like to see is the M12, which was removed from the Redesign and have it extend northward to the M57 terminal at 72-Broadway.

I agree with the M106 being merged with another route but not a revamped M55 (via 5/Madison Av and Broadway/Lafayette is good but maybe cut back to Grand Central or it's original layover at Bryant Park). Maybe reroute the M3 and/or M4 to make up for lost service. Also replicates "original" M106 service somewhat.

I don't see a need to reroute the M8 to Columbus Circle. Think it does just fine. I also would leave the M50 alone and not add a supplemental M49 from 72nd Street. Also think the M20 should be kept as is. 

Otherwise, I think this plan look interesting.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

9 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Overall nice concept just a bit of nitpicking.

The M104/Bx33 is a neat combo on paper but is it really a good idea to combine the two? I also noticed that you extended the Bx15 back to Lex-125 as part of the Redesign. If the Bx33 was extended to 12 Av and tampered a bit in Harlem (maybe 125 St between 5 Av and 12 Av instead of west of Douglas; maybe the M1/104 could extend along 135 St to replace lost service) I could go for this rather than an M125.

Also noticed you merged the M57 into the M31 and west end is replaced by an extended M72. This one seems iffy. I do like the concept of the M72 via 79 St. What I would like to see is the M12, which was removed from the Redesign and have it extend northward to the M57 terminal at 72-Broadway.

I agree with the M106 being merged with another route but not a revamped M55 (via 5/Madison Av and Broadway/Lafayette is good but maybe cut back to Grand Central or it's original layover at Bryant Park). Maybe reroute the M3 and/or M4 to make up for lost service. Also replicates "original" M106 service somewhat.

I don't see a need to reroute the M8 to Columbus Circle. Think it does just fine. I also would leave the M50 alone and not add a supplemental M49 from 72nd Street. Also think the M20 should be kept as is. 

Otherwise, I think this plan look interesting.

The original proposal in mind was to extend the M104 to Harlem Hospital  for access to that Hospital, which is a bit difficult from that section of Harlem. However, I felt that the turnaround would be a bit of a problem, so then I considered extending the route to 3rd Ave-138 Street, but then I figured since it would parallel the Bx33, and might not perform too well, I might as well extend the route along 138th Street to the Mill Brook Houses. The M104 would serve West Harlem while the Bx15 serves East Harlem.  

The M31 remains the sole route on 57 street, but the frequencies are increased on that route. Also, alternate buses would end at 72nd Street and York Ave instead of heading up to Yorkville. 

The M12 as it is should not exist, and initially, I was not going to have the M72 run down to Hudson Yards and Chelsea Piers. The intention was to have a route from the Upper West Side run to Hudson Yards. I was gonna have the M10 do that from Columbus Circle, but I figured that the M72 would serve more of the Upper West Side than the M10 would, and it would also serve parts of the east side so I settled on that. 

The M55 tends to not carry much within Midtown as it is because of where it ends. Terminating my proposed M55 at Grand Central (from the south) would achieve the same results. The M3/M4 (even with the truncated routings) would be long, so I don't want to extend them any further. The one thing though, as that they avoid Midtown now. Also, I would want to maintain the connection on the M106 to Mount Sinai, which would be severed under what you're suggesting. 

Outside the rush, the M8 tends to be used lightly. Part of it are the headways, but also, the M8 doesn't go where a lot of other people are going. The section west of 6th Ave often carries air. The area around 14th Street near the high line is a spot where a lot of people tend to go, and going further up the west side can be a bit of an issue. With the increased headways and the greater service area the M8 would have, I feel like you would be able to attracted more people than the current M8 and M20. I can see it catching on. 

I don't see the purpose of keeping the M20 as is, because it tends to not carry much south of 14th Street. BPC residents have the for the west side, and that's what they tend to go for. 

The M50 is a route that I believe should not be a real crosstown, because I don't think it would do well as it currently does. Outside the rush, it suffers some of the same problems as the M8, but it also has to deal with congestion. Nobody is going to wait 30 minutes for a bus in Midtown, and that's partially where the M49 comes in. The M50 extension to Waterside is more to provide greater access from Waterside Plaza (both to the east side and into Midtown) which the M34/M34A doesn't provide. The M49 would provided twice the frequencies along the higher used sections of 49th/50th Streets, and would somewhat replace the M4

What I will say is that I don't really like having the M50 continue to go to 42nd Street on the west side, but I didn't have anything else at the moment in mind. That segment (west of 8th) tends to get people, mostly heading to/from the subway. Still thinking on how to fix that issue. 

[B35 via Church]

Re: @BM5 via Woodhaven Manhattan bus network revamp......

 

side note: For reference purposes, the M1, M2, M7, M10, M11, M15 SBS, M23, M31, M34a, M35, M42, M60, M79, M86, M96, M100, M102, M103, M116 routings are left alone....

-------------------

M3 & M4 truncation to Mt. Sinal.... Well it beats the old M18 terminal along CPN, but I personally wouldn't have both routes ending at the hospital.... I would have one of the two taking over the eastern portion of the M106 (I would choose the M3).....

M5 extension past Herald Sq. is overdue; the M55/M5 BS is a failing concept... However, to have it taking over the M8 west of the PATH station is virtually useless.... At best, I would only have midday trips doing that, but during the rush, it's a waste of time.... I'd stop this dead at the PATH station.... Don't miss working around there (Christopher) at all....

M6 is another variation/attempt at a resurrection of the thing.... Seen too many of 'em over the years.... Most of them have been decent (this one here included)... Having it take over portions of the M20 is a first though, I'll give you that....

M8 diversion & extension to Columbus Circle (area), I'd personally want no part of (but I can see people being drawn to patronizing something like this)... I can understand phasing out the M20, but I would not use the M8 from East Village picking up that slack between 14th & 57th....

M9 extension to South Ferry via BPC (North end & South end) I can't agree with.... The route takes forever just getting to City Hall... I would cut it back to City Hall, to have the M22 serve both sections of BPC....

M12 elimination.... I suppose, but I would look to shift NB operations from 12th to 10th before finally doing away with it....

M14a diversion + extension to Hudson Yards subway/area & M14d truncation to Abingdon Sq... Your M14a is like the M34a on steroids..... Having the M14d relegated to an unofficial short turn of the M14a, I can't get on board with..... That's just how I see this whole thing....

M15 (local) diversion to BPC.... If the street grid allowed for feasible travel between Chinatown & BPC, I wouldn't have too much of a problem with this.... Since that's not the case, no way should the M15 run to BPC at the expense of a truncated M22.... I don't get the sense that those folks (BPC) are trying to get to the east side like that anyway....

M20 elimination.... Hasty, but I can see why someone would want to.... I would truncate it to 14th st from the north & see how that would pan out, before outright cutting it.

M21 diversion + extension to Abingdon Sq.... Not worth it, IMO.... Most folks are off the bus at 6th av & I don't see that changing if it were to run up to Abingdon.... What you're suggesting in the 'Village, amounts to an overcompensation for the fact you'd eliminate the M20.... People really don't start thinking about buses down there, until you start hitting 14th st....

M22 truncation to City Hall....  (Considering what you're doing with the M9 & the M15 local) This looks to me like you want to cut it without actually cutting it... Either that, or you didn't know what else to do with it, but cut it back....  LOL....

M34 service to either 34th st Ferry Landing or Waterside.... I'm not really sure what's going on here... On the map description, it says "Hudson Yards to East Side or Waterside".... OTOH, on your Google doc', there's zero indication that buses are actually terminating at the ferry.... So are you suggesting splitting M34 service to [terminating at either the Ferry term. or Waterside], or are all M34's [terminating at Waterside (with only the WB buses serving the ferry terminal, after having left Waterside)]? I'm trying to figure out how much M34's you would have terminating at Waterside, vs. how many would terminate at the ferry....

"M49" new route & M50 extension to Waterside..... That supplemental service is excessive & I'm not sure why a route like that would/should even run up to W. 72nd... I'm inclined to agree with you regarding the M50 (about not having it be a crosstown or whatever), but at the same time, there is no point in exacerbating matters..... I would leave it alone & call it a day....

M55 extension to the Wilson houses.... Don't agree with the E. 106th part; there's more demand for E. 106th from the north, compared to that from areas from the south.... That's exactly why I'd have one of those truncated 5th/Madison routes (M3/M4) serve E. 106th..... I'd end this extended M55 over there by the circle (5th/110th) & call it a day....

M57 elimination... I get streamlining 57th st. service with additional M31 service, but I would rather have that M104 taking West End av (from 72nd) to W. 57th (to end around Columbus Circle), than everything else you have the M72 doing south of W. 66th..... There's enough routes along that part of Broadway (IRL & with regards to your proposal) anyway...

M66 extension to 72nd st subway (1/2/3).... Well, I guess you don't have much of a choice, considering what you'd do to the M57 & M72.... I would still route the M66 via Freedom place/Riverside blvd. though (instead of your M72)....

M72 extension to CHELSEA PIERS ??? (you have it listed as ending at Hudson Yards, btw).. Ouch....... All I'm going to say is that you're smarter than this.
(Well that, and this couldn't happen as illustrated anyway.... Freedom place doesn't allow for bi-directional traffic up there; it's one way NB b/w 66th & 70th)

M98 extension in general I agree with (I would send it past 42nd though).....

M101 truncation + diversion to Metropolitan Hosp. Ctr..... I don't have a particular opinion on this either way.... I'm just going to say that you would preserve more of this route than I would... I'll just leave it at that....

M104 truncation to Columbus Cir. & extension to the Mill Brook houses.... I actually like this concept... Although I concurred with the MTA's truncation of the thing from the UN, I never really cared for specifically ending it around PABT.... The existence of the M104 between 42nd & 59th to me is akin to the M10's running b/w MSG & 59th way back when; as in, it felt a little unnecessary at times..... On the other end of the routing suggestion, I can see Bronxites down there taking this to 125th (A/B/C/D).... Goes without saying that its current terminal in Harlem (old depot site) is a stub....

M106 elimination... You have M96 service (freq. wise) more or less the same, with a (much needed) service boost along E. 106th (although I still don't think your M55 should serve it)... So as far as service freq. is concerned, I concur with phasing the M106 out in this fashion....

Edited February 28, 2020 by B35 via Church

[Jova42R]

Is there any demand for a UWS to Inwood Route via the HH Pkwy?

[B35 via Church]

9 minutes ago, Jova42R said:

Is there any demand for a UWS to Inwood Route via the HH Pkwy?

Virtually non-existent.

Again I ask, what is it with you & all these suggestions/inquiries regarding having buses utilize the Henry Hudson Pkwy??

 

[Around the Horn]

A proposal for service on 34th Street:

The M34A is axed and all buses operate between Javits Center/Hudson Yards and Waterside as the M34.

The M34 would be every 4 minutes during rush hour, 8 minutes during middays and every 10 minutes in the evening.

Weekends, service operates every 8-10 minutes during the day and every 15 minutes in the morning and evening.

map

Edited February 28, 2020 by Around the Horn

[Jova42R]

Proposal for Central Park service:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1QYBRpZGFnKxDaT7PLt4XkvmCqXQ3li4p&usp=sharing

Thoughts?

M110, M96, M86 - MHV (MJQ transfers some LFSAs and XD60s to MHV for service on the M86 and M60)

all others - MJQ

[B35 via Church]

On 2/27/2020 at 8:13 PM, Around the Horn said:

A proposal for service on 34th Street:

The M34A is axed and all buses operate between Javits Center/Hudson Yards and Waterside as the M34.

The M34 would be every 4 minutes during rush hour, 8 minutes during middays and every 10 minutes in the evening.

Weekends, service operates every 8-10 minutes during the day and every 15 minutes in the morning and evening.

map

I get trying to simplify things, but while the "core" of 34th street warrants that frequency, service west of around 9th/10th doesn't warrant that much service & neither does Waterside itself... That's the issue....

Way I see it, 34th st. service should be divvied up relatively equal b/w terminating at either [Waterside] & [34th st ferry].... However, I actually think more of an imbalance of service should occur between terminating buses at either PABT or the Javits Ctr. (with PABT slightly getting more of it).... I'm not sure if it was due to the SBS conversion or what, but patronage isn't nearly the afterthought it used to be north of 34th on the M34a.... I would not dedicate every trip along 34th to terminating at the Javits Ctr.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

I get trying to simplify things, but while the "core" of 34th street warrants that frequency, service west of around 9th/10th doesn't warrant that much service & neither does Waterside itself... That's the issue....

Way I see it, 34th st. service should be divvied up relatively equal b/w terminating at either [Waterside] & [34th st ferry].... However, I actually think more of an imbalance of service should occur between terminating buses at either PABT or the Javits Ctr. (with PABT slightly getting more of it).... I'm not sure if it was due to the SBS conversion or what, but patronage isn't nearly the afterthought it used to be north of 34th on the M34a.... I would not dedicate every trip along 34th to terminating at the Javits Ctr.

I think that may change over time. I’ve been spending more and more time over at Hudson Yards exploring eateries and all of the new businesses moving over there. Just about all of those trips have been made using Uber though. I think if the M34 was more reliable and frequent, I would use it for such crosstown trips.

[B35 via Church]

38 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I think that may change over time. I’ve been spending more and more time over at Hudson Yards exploring eateries and all of the new businesses moving over there. Just about all of those trips have been made using Uber though. I think if the M34 was more reliable and frequent, I would use it for such crosstown trips.

Not to the tune where it would warrant 15 buses an hour during peak times.... I don't see it.

Funny thing about public transit is that once people have given up on it (or never bothered to put up with it to begin with), they typically don't go back to it (especially using it as their primary way of getting around).... Point being, those that are Ubering out there aren't going to start taking M34's if/whenever (which is wishful thinking in & of itself) the MTA gets its act together....

At best, considering current service levels, the M34's efficiency rate would increase (since more people would start using buses in that immediate area).... But to the point where there would/should be this bonanza of service (compared to the current service west of around 9th/10th) being offered, nah...

Edited February 29, 2020 by B35 via Church

[Via Garibaldi 8]

15 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Not to the tune where it would warrant 15 buses an hour during peak times.... I don't see it.

Funny thing about public transit is that once people have given up on it (or never bothered to put up with it to begin with), they typically don't go back to it (especially using it as their primary way of getting around).... Point being, those that are Ubering out there aren't going to start taking M34's if/whenever (which is wishful thinking in & of itself) the MTA gets its act together....

At best, considering current service levels, the M34's efficiency rate would increase (since more people would start using buses in that immediate area).... But to the point where there would/should be this bonanza of service (compared to the current service west of around 9th/10th) being offered, nah...

I don’t disagree at all. I wouldn’t provide tons of service either. My point was more about the need for more service down the line. Also correct about people not going back to transit once they give up on it.

[B35 via Church]

6 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I don’t disagree at all. I wouldn’t provide tons of service either. My point was more about the need for more service down the line. Also correct about people not going back to transit once they give up on it.

My point was centered around taking service away from PABT to have all 34th st. service run to the Javits Ctr.... Currently, there's 6 BPH (peak) running there... Taking another 6 BPH away from PABT to send to Javits Ctr. would have it at 12 BPH.... 4 min peak service to the Javits Ctr. is 15 BPH.... That is 9 additional buses (peak) to the Javits Ctr.... Whenever Hudson Yards gets fully built up, I can agree to the current 6 BPH not sufficing, but 9 more buses to address that growth? Nah.... That's where I was coming from.....

Your point I don't have a problem with then; I'm not defending current M34 service levels in the slightest....

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

On 2/27/2020 at 7:18 PM, B35 via Church said:

Re: @BM5 via Woodhaven Manhattan bus network revamp......

 

side note: For reference purposes, the M1, M2, M7, M10, M11, M15 SBS, M23, M31, M34a, M35, M42, M60, M79, M86, M96, M100, M102, M103, M116 routings are left alone....

-------------------

M3 & M4 truncation to Mt. Sinal.... Well it beats the old M18 terminal along CPN, but I personally wouldn't have both routes ending at the hospital.... I would have one of the two taking over the eastern portion of the M106 (I would choose the M3).....

M5 extension past Herald Sq. is overdue; the M55/M5 BS is a failing concept... However, to have it taking over the M8 west of the PATH station is virtually useless.... At best, I would only have midday trips doing that, but during the rush, it's a waste of time.... I'd stop this dead at the PATH station.... Don't miss working around there (Christopher) at all....

M6 is another variation/attempt at a resurrection of the thing.... Seen too many of 'em over the years.... Most of them have been decent (this one here included)... Having it take over portions of the M20 is a first though, I'll give you that....

M8 diversion & extension to Columbus Circle (area), I'd personally want no part of (but I can see people being drawn to patronizing something like this)... I can understand phasing out the M20, but I would not use the M8 from East Village picking up that slack between 14th & 57th....

M9 extension to South Ferry via BPC (North end & South end) I can't agree with.... The route takes forever just getting to City Hall... I would cut it back to City Hall, to have the M22 serve both sections of BPC....

M12 elimination.... I suppose, but I would look to shift NB operations from 12th to 10th before finally doing away with it....

M14a diversion + extension to Hudson Yards subway/area & M14d truncation to Abingdon Sq... Your M14a is like the M34a on steroids..... Having the M14d relegated to an unofficial short turn of the M14a, I can't get on board with..... That's just how I see this whole thing....

M15 (local) diversion to BPC.... If the street grid allowed for feasible travel between Chinatown & BPC, I wouldn't have too much of a problem with this.... Since that's not the case, no way should the M15 run to BPC at the expense of a truncated M22.... I don't get the sense that those folks (BPC) are trying to get to the east side like that anyway....

M20 elimination.... Hasty, but I can see why someone would want to.... I would truncate it to 14th st from the north & see how that would pan out, before outright cutting it.

M21 diversion + extension to Abingdon Sq.... Not worth it, IMO.... Most folks are off the bus at 6th av & I don't see that changing if it were to run up to Abingdon.... What you're suggesting in the 'Village, amounts to an overcompensation for the fact you'd eliminate the M20.... People really don't start thinking about buses down there, until you start hitting 14th st....

M22 truncation to City Hall....  (Considering what you're doing with the M9 & the M15 local) This looks to me like you want to cut it without actually cutting it... Either that, or you didn't know what else to do with it, but cut it back....  LOL....

M34 service to either 34th st Ferry Landing or Waterside.... I'm not really sure what's going on here... On the map description, it says "Hudson Yards to East Side or Waterside".... OTOH, on your Google doc', there's zero indication that buses are actually terminating at the ferry.... So are you suggesting splitting M34 service to [terminating at either the Ferry term. or Waterside], or are all M34's [terminating at Waterside (with only the WB buses serving the ferry terminal, after having left Waterside)]? I'm trying to figure out how much M34's you would have terminating at Waterside, vs. how many would terminate at the ferry....

"M49" new route & M50 extension to Waterside..... That supplemental service is excessive & I'm not sure why a route like that would/should even run up to W. 72nd... I'm inclined to agree with you regarding the M50 (about not having it be a crosstown or whatever), but at the same time, there is no point in exacerbating matters..... I would leave it alone & call it a day....

M55 extension to the Wilson houses.... Don't agree with the E. 106th part; there's more demand for E. 106th from the north, compared to that from areas from the south.... That's exactly why I'd have one of those truncated 5th/Madison routes (M3/M4) serve E. 106th..... I'd end this extended M55 over there by the circle (5th/110th) & call it a day....

M57 elimination... I get streamlining 57th st. service with additional M31 service, but I would rather have that M104 taking West End av (from 72nd) to W. 57th (to end around Columbus Circle), than everything else you have the M72 doing south of W. 66th..... There's enough routes along that part of Broadway (IRL & with regards to your proposal) anyway...

M66 extension to 72nd st subway (1/2/3).... Well, I guess you don't have much of a choice, considering what you'd do to the M57 & M72.... I would still route the M66 via Freedom place/Riverside blvd. though (instead of your M72)....

M72 extension to CHELSEA PIERS ??? (you have it listed as ending at Hudson Yards, btw).. Ouch....... All I'm going to say is that you're smarter than this.
(Well that, and this couldn't happen as illustrated anyway.... Freedom place doesn't allow for bi-directional traffic up there; it's one way NB b/w 66th & 70th)

M98 extension in general I agree with (I would send it past 42nd though).....

M101 truncation + diversion to Metropolitan Hosp. Ctr..... I don't have a particular opinion on this either way.... I'm just going to say that you would preserve more of this route than I would... I'll just leave it at that....

M104 truncation to Columbus Cir. & extension to the Mill Brook houses.... I actually like this concept... Although I concurred with the MTA's truncation of the thing from the UN, I never really cared for specifically ending it around PABT.... The existence of the M104 between 42nd & 59th to me is akin to the M10's running b/w MSG & 59th way back when; as in, it felt a little unnecessary at times..... On the other end of the routing suggestion, I can see Bronxites down there taking this to 125th (A/B/C/D).... Goes without saying that its current terminal in Harlem (old depot site) is a stub....

M106 elimination... You have M96 service (freq. wise) more or less the same, with a (much needed) service boost along E. 106th (although I still don't think your M55 should serve it)... So as far as service freq. is concerned, I concur with phasing the M106 out in this fashion....

Minor correction to the above, but the M1, M11, amd M60 have route changes. The M1 doesn't run south of 8th Street, the M11 uses Broadway between 135th and 145th, and the M60 uses Broadway between 120th and 125th. 

M3/M4/M55: I would still want to retain something going across 106th Street to the south for people who need to go to Mount Sinai, and in case anyone needs to make connections to the M96 going west. I did not feel like retaining the M106 as a shuttle, which is why I went with the modified M55. As for choosing one to go across 106th, I'd probably pick the M3 as well. 

M5: Fair enough. Initially, I had Christopher Street PATH in mind as the terminal, but I figured I would have covered the rest since the run time was not going to be too much of a difference. 

M9/M22: I did not know what to do with the M22 but truncate it to City Hall because I didn't feel any other option was really feasible. A merger with the M21 (one route from Soho to City Hall via LES) wouldn't really be beneficial for any of the ridership bases, since most other routes go North-South in faster time. The only group which may see *some* benefit is people by the Vladeck Houses going to places around Houston Street.  However, the traffic on Houston Street would also reduce reliability more on both routes (but esepcially the current M22 leg). I don't see too many people from BPC going to areas along the M22 in particular, so that's why I truncated the M22 out of BPC. 

As far as the M9 goes, yeah it's kinda windy in the area past City Hall, but I was considering truncating it to City Hall. I was also considering sending the M15 local to serve both sections of BPC and basically being the only bus in that area, but I felt that it would be way too much for the M15 local to handle, which is why the M9 was extended there. 

M14A/M14D: I chose the M14A over the M14D to Hudson Yards (which at first, was the bus that would have gone to Hudson Yards), because it hits more areas in Lower Manhattan where people would travel to/from Hudson Yards. I don't see people along Avenue D heading to Hudson Yards more than I see people along Avenue A heading there. By itself its a pretty long route for a crosstown, but the 14th Street Busway does help move buses quicker (which is something 34th Street doesn't have), and run times still need to be adjusted for that IIRC. Avenue A would still be the only section where the buses move slow. As for runtime, using the existing (unadjusted) schedule, the runtime would be about 52-53 minutes at the slowest part of the day. 

M15 local: One of the problems with the M9 is its frequency, and that its service span is not wide enough (IMO, 10 PM is kinda early).  I would have had the an east side route deal with BPC on its own (w/o the M9 and M22). I say an east side route that because before the M15 local, I also considered the M103, but even with a slightly shorter route,  a lot of its route can be a crawl, and I wasn't going to tank reliability even further on that route.  Even then having the M15 serve both portions of BPC would be too much, and would require short-turns on the northern section (which would be a disservice to East Harlem residents). Also, the M15 serves busier portions of the East Side than the M9 does (and its relatively difficult to travel between those sections on the subway). The intention was to cater towards people who may be headed to LES, East Village, and for those who may work at the Hospitals along that stretch (moreso between 23rd and 34th than the Yorkville Hospitals).

Either way, I would be able to see that iteration of the M15 receive more patronage than the existing M15 local along Water Street. Most people are using the M15 SBS, and that part of the east side doesn't have a route into the heart of Downtown Manhattan, so I think that having the M15 local do that would be a relatively cost-neutral way to expand service coverage. 

M21: The extension to 9th Ave/14th Street isn't really to replace the M20 in that area, but to provide access to that from sections of the East Village, LES. I would have rerouted the M21 up to 6th Avenue instead of 14th, but did not do so to preserve the  connection at Varick Street (which is where most people are headed to if they're still on at 6th Avenue). 

M34: The route description is fixed now. There will be buses terminating at the Ferry terminal and at Waterside, just not alternating buses like it's currently down. The M34 to Waterside would essentially operate during early evening, overnight, and weekend AM hours, when M34A service is not as frequent (or non-existent). So it would be from about 9:30 PM (Sunday) to 6 AM (Monday), from 12 AM to 6 AM Tuesdays through Friday. Saturday and Sunday mornings, it would be from 12 AM to 9 AM. Because the M34 and M34A would receive a considerable boost, the M34 to Waterside Plaza would not be necessary during the day. The M34A currently operates approximately every 17 minutes during the afternoon hours, while the new schedule would make it every 12 minutes. M34/M34A service combined (6 minute headways) would be excessive for 34th Street service.  

M49/M50: Looking at the frequencies, they might be way too much at times, but I still don't think the current routing or the frequencies are suitable. There should definitely be a headway boost on the route, especially on weekends. There aren't too many riding the M50 past 9th Avenue, so I feel like it sending north towards Columbus Circle and Lincoln Center would be beneficial to people who live on the east side of Manhattan, and for tourists AND workers who decide to take the bus between Midtown and the UWS. It's a partial replacement to the M104, but it's also a somewhat difficult trip to make, even on weekends. The  and  have long headways (the is unreliable) , and for then to transfer again to the , it makes no sense. As for what would serve sections west of 9th Avenue, I'm not entirely sure.

M31/M57/M104: I actually had something like that in mind for the M104 (via 72nd, West End and 57th) to preserve subway access to Columbus Circle, but I didn't go with that because I thought it would make it a little too long of a route (given the extension north). However, I guess it can work out.  

M72: I weighted out the possibility of running the M10 down 10th/11th first to Hudson Yards and Chelsea Piers (which would cover most of the M12 route), but I felt that most people would end up going for the subway to the . I guess it would be better to have that section (Chelsea Piers to 72nd Street) should become its own route. I wouldn't want to provide M12 frequencies though. 

M98: Where south would you send it? I had 42nd Street in mind because it covers a decent portion of Midtown where people from East Harlem and UES may be heading, covers most areas where people from Washington Heights are heading to, and covers the areas on the UES and Midtown where people would consider taking the M98 (over the M4) towards Fort Tryon Park and the Cloisters. 

Edited February 29, 2020 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Jova42R]

M176:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1fgs_17EYrOGgIL6Nh17goQCsqpQJa9iM&usp=sharing

@B35 via Church @BM5 via Woodhaven @Via Garibaldi 8 Thoughts?

 

[Around the Horn]

6 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I think that may change over time. I’ve been spending more and more time over at Hudson Yards exploring eateries and all of the new businesses moving over there. Just about all of those trips have been made using Uber though. I think if the M34 was more reliable and frequent, I would use it for such crosstown trips.

That was exactly the main concern I was trying to address with this proposal (however I do understand your points @B35 via Church) . Just today I was at Hudson Yards and briefly considered taking the M34 over to the until I saw the next one was in 17 minutes (!) and then I opted for the instead.

It just doesn't make sense to me how 14th Street has such excellent bus service and then you go up to 34th and its so terrible at any time that's not the peak (and even then service is not great with extremely packed buses)

[B35 via Church]

2 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

That was exactly the main concern I was trying to address with this proposal (however I do understand your points @B35 via Church) . Just today I was at Hudson Yards and briefly considered taking the M34 over to the until I saw the next one was in 17 minutes (!) and then I opted for the instead.

It just doesn't make sense to me how 14th Street has such excellent bus service and then you go up to 34th and its so terrible at any time that's not the peak (and even then service is not great with extremely packed buses)

This is not an excuse (and maybe even amounts to a chicken & egg scenario), but too many people are content with walking along 34th street (compared to 14th st) during the day in general.... That, and the M14's (A&D) have a stronger ridership generator than the M34/a does with LES.....

Regarding Hudson Yards in particular, to be quite honest, I envision it as being somewhat akin to BPC when it comes to public buses - some of them maybe/will take it if the bus is right then & there, but otherwise, they're going to be quick to hop in someone's cab.... This is one of the main reasons why I wouldn't really go too crazy increasing bus service to/from there, including extending/rerouting current services there.....

34th st service though, man, I just can't.... I'm one of those people that don't even consider the M34/a, partly because of exactly what you've just pointed out.... It's like buses disappear out of thin air or something.... I'm not even trying to be funny, I don't remember the last time I've SEEN an M34/a in service the last couple times I was around Herald Sq. this calendar year alone..... I know someone personally that's always got something to say about the M23 & I always tell her, just be glad you don't have to put up with the M34.... She says she always catches a cab whenever she heads "uptown" - Yeah, point proven (she lives in Peter Cooper btw).... I could never live in Manhattan....

IDK what the solution is myself, but service along 34th st has been the pits for literally decades....

[Gotham Bus Co.]

On 2/27/2020 at 7:18 PM, B35 via Church said:

M14a diversion + extension to Hudson Yards subway/area & M14d truncation to Abingdon Sq... Your M14a is like the M34a on steroids..... Having the M14d relegated to an unofficial short turn of the M14a, I can't get on board with..... That's just how I see this whole thing....

 

4 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

M14A/M14D: I chose the M14A over the M14D to Hudson Yards (which at first, was the bus that would have gone to Hudson Yards), because it hits more areas in Lower Manhattan where people would travel to/from Hudson Yards. I don't see people along Avenue D heading to Hudson Yards more than I see people along Avenue A heading there. By itself its a pretty long route for a crosstown, but the 14th Street Busway does help move buses quicker (which is something 34th Street doesn't have), and run times still need to be adjusted for that IIRC. Avenue A would still be the only section where the buses move slow. As for runtime, using the existing (unadjusted) schedule, the runtime would be about 52-53 minutes at the slowest part of the day. 

 

Plus, swapping the West Side terminals actually shortens the more frequent branch (Avenue D) while extending the less frequent branch (Avenue A) northward, which minimizes the total cost of the extension.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

4 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

M34: The route description is fixed now. There will be buses terminating at the Ferry terminal and at Waterside, just not alternating buses like it's currently down. The M34 to Waterside would essentially operate during early evening, overnight, and weekend AM hours, when M34A service is not as frequent (or non-existent). So it would be from about 9:30 PM (Sunday) to 6 AM (Monday), from 12 AM to 6 AM Tuesdays through Friday. Saturday and Sunday mornings, it would be from 12 AM to 9 AM. Because the M34 and M34A would receive a considerable boost, the M34 to Waterside Plaza would not be necessary during the day. The M34A currently operates approximately every 17 minutes during the afternoon hours, while the new schedule would make it every 12 minutes. M34/M34A service combined (6 minute headways) would be excessive for 34th Street service.  

Should have read "excessive for Waterside service".