Brooklyn Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[qjtransitmaster]

to a certain extent I haven't really told you about me much what I said so far only says so much

[Interested Rider]

I have to agree with Brooklyn Bus as it has to be a coalition of bus riders, bus drivers (yes! the dedicated staff that drives the buses must have a say in the change of bus routes), dispatchers, business owners and other interested parties such as members of this forum. The present MTA structure not only discourages public involvement but the command structure is totally insulated from public scrutiny. It is a political bureaucracy that determines its own routes. Its finances are determined by forces in Albany and City Hall as that is how it was created and nurtured. Remember Robert Moses, the first of the transportation czars who was not directly involved with the Board of Transportation when it was created in 1940, His impact upon the agency cannot be underestimated even in today's world.

 

I think that many of the ideas presented in this thread are very good and the give and take is great, Most of us do not have degrees in City Planning but we are quite knowledgeable in how our communities have evolved. We are quite aware of the institutions in our communities and how much bus service is needed to provide this service. I, however, am quite pessimistic that any change will be done and many of us (myself) are not part (or will ever be part) of the MTA inner circle where it could be done.

 

 

A point of clarification involving the last paragraph: A person could be working for an agency and could be just as frustrated as a person in the community in trying to initiate changes such:as those being proposed on the thread. The difference is that if you are the outside you can speak more freely whereas anyone who works (or has worked) for any agency knows, you have to make a choice between speaking outside the agency which is permitted (provided that certain procedures are followed) under New York State Civil Service Law (and its consquences) or keeping it internal (and your job). If I was asked, I would say follow the latter and forget the former as it is totally useless. The statement was not to denigrate those that have degrees but to indicate that those who are on the outside have more freedom in terms of voicing opinions.

 

The statement about the inner circle indicates the level of frustration in trying to initiate change in this agency.. It is extremely rare that even the smallest change comes from the outside of the agency, no matter how practical, how much money it may save or how many additional riders will use the service. The problem is that over the years a bureaucracy has developed that is not accountable to the public and based on this fact, an inner circle has been created that has the attitude that they are above us and could do whatever they please. Thus decisionmaking is made by a select few individuals with a revolving door of chosen outsiders who are responsive to them that come and go at will.

 

This is why I recommend two books by Mark Leven "Ameritopia" and "Liberty and tyranny" as both of these books provide further information that proivde addtional support to the my comments on this subject.

[BrooklynBus]

To Brooklyn IRT:

 

You asked me to comment on your proposals. I looked at them and am afraid I can't comment at this time because it is just too difficult to follow when trying to picture how it would all work together. You also give too many options which only makes things more confusing. Just do a simple map showing which routes you would change with no options for the time being. We can discuss options later.But you have to be cognizant of costs. You state the B1 should go to Knapp Street so Emmons Avenue would get better service but you shouldn't think that way because it would never happen. They would just short turn buses at 25th Avenue to still provide poor service eastward. You can't just improve service and hope new patronage materializes. (I know I'm sounding a little like the MTA now.) There has to be a reason for more people to ride.

 

Generally as a planning principle it is not a good idea to combine a portion of a route with good headways with another portion having poor headways. It is far better to try to combine two routes with similar headways. Also, I don't understand your B32. Is that the entire route on the map? I also don't think there is enough demand for a 16th Avenue service on the entire street.

[qjtransitmaster]

brooklyn bus do you know about bus service in areas other than brooklyn what about express bus structure and non stop routing

[Mysterious2train]

The lone idea I have, for a new B28 route between the Red Hook IKEA and the train terminal in Canarise:

 

 

It allows for easier access to Park Slope, Red Hook and Windsor Terrace from the East, right now the only direct services into those first two neighborhoods are from the North and South. I'm guessing neighborhood residents wouldn't be too happy about this idea since they might it as bringing people from bad neighborhoods or whatever, but I really don't get this unused access, just because of Prospect Park. This route takes a little bit of pressure off the B61, what with less people coming from the area East of Prospect Park and going North to Downtown Brooklyn just to head South again.

 

It would probably come out of either Jackie Gleason or East New York depot if it were real.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Mysterious2train

[BrooklynIRT]

Also, I don't understand your B32. Is that the entire route on the map? I also don't think there is enough demand for a 16th Avenue service on the entire street.

 

Thanks. The entire B32 is on that map.

 

The B1 to Knapp Street is a very important part of my plans. I actually was thinking about various possibilities for the B1 and other routes while I was typing my post, so I guess this caused my posts to be rather discombobulated. I actually wanted the B1 to stay the same west of Ocean Pkwy, but reroute it to Knapp St (so it no longer serves KCC) east of Ocean Pkwy.

 

I got this idea from a thread you created a while back ("Why is Sheepshead Bay so complacent about bus service?"), to which B35 posted a response saying that the B4 with its service to a small stretch of the 86 St shopping area is not very attractive to those who live in Sheepshead and want to go to 86 St for recreation.

 

On the other hand if you connect the real 86 St bus (B1) to Sheepshead Bay, I think more people in Sheepshead, especially in Plumb Beach, will want to ride this east-west bus service than the B4, and thus the new east-west bus in Sheepshead Bay (B1) can have better headways than the current east-west bus (B4).

 

Then something can be sent to KCC to replace the B1 and maybe that route can have very good service levels (5-6 mins rush hours, 8-10 mins off-hours) since KCC is a major trip generator and the route would also serve places like Coney Island, Caesar's Bay, etc. Thus perhaps there could be even more justification for "very good" service levels.

 

For better or for worse, I wish to exhaust every avenue to get service on every NYCT bus line in operation to what I consider "very good" service levels.

 

I have this compulsion and it results in my making rather unorthodox proposals in an attempt to get service on as many bus lines as possible to these levels, because my fear or notion is that if service is not good enough on a bus line, the ridership is not easily sustainable, and the bus line remains mired in mediocre to crappy service levels forever (read: Bx10, which I dealt with for almost 20 years and generally do not wish to deal with ever again) and nobody wants to deal with said bus line (Bx10 or others).

 

But anyway, this is the gist of it: You said there needs to be a reason for the patronage to materialize. If the B1 went to Knapp Street (and the line stayed on 86 St from 4th Ave to McDonald Ave), the reason for the patronage to materialize would be that the people that live around Emmons Ave and Belt Pkwy would have a direct bus route to all of 86 St, and hopefully the route would have "very good" service levels. Again this is assuming we keep the B1 on 86 St from 4th Ave to McDonald Ave.

 

Mysterious2train: Ha. Right now we have the coming from the depths of Brownsville and East New York and making stops along Flatbush Ave in Park Slope, and you also have the B82, which comes from Coney Island/Starrett City and makes stops in Midwood, among other transit lines, so I doubt the people would make a big deal about it.

Edited April 18, 2012 by BrooklynIRT

[Threxx]

Southern Brooklyn

 

B1: Bay Ridge, 86 St & Shore Road

Manhattan Beach, Kingsboro CC

Via 86 St.

(LTD)

 

B2: Eliminated, for replacement see B100/B101.

 

B3: Bergen Beach, Veterans Avenue/Avenue U

Bath Beach, Shore Pkwy-Bay Pkwy

Via Avenue U.

 

B4: Bay Ridge, 86 St & Shore Road

Sheepshead Bay, Knapp St/Voohries Avenue

Via Bay Parkway

(Full time service to Sheepshead Bay)

 

B5: Kings Plaza, Avenue U/Flatbush Avenue

Bay Ridge, 69 St/Shore Road

Via Avenue P & 65 St

(NEW, LTD)

 

B6: Current route.

 

B7: Bed-Stuy, Halsey ST

Canarsie, E. 80 Street

Via Saratoga & Remsen Ave.

 

B8: Brownsville, Mother Gaston Bl.

Bay Ridge, 95 St Station

Via Avenue D & 18 Avenue

(Full time service to Bay Ridge)

 

B9: Current Route.

 

B10/B16:

Crown Heights, Utica Avenue

Bay Ridge, 86th St

Via 13 & 14 Avenue (B10) & via Ft. Hamilton Pkwy (B16)

 

B11: Current route.

 

B31: Gerritsen Beach, Lois Pl

Harway Avenue, Bensonhurst

Via Gerritsen Avenue & Kings Hwy.

(Via Ceaser’s Bay Mall, extended to replace shorter B82.)

 

B37: Downtown Brooklyn, Court St

Bay Ridge, Shore Road

Via 3rd Avenue

(Weekdays Only)

 

B63: Current route in Bay Ridge.

 

B64: Bay Ridge, 86 St & 4th Avenue

Coney Island, Mermaid Loop

Via Bath & Cropsey Avenues

(Essentially a “southern” version of the B1.)

 

B68: Current route in Coney Island.

 

B70: Current route.

 

B82: Starret City, Seaview Avenue WITH some trips to Gateway Center.

Midwood, CI Avenue/Quentin Road

Via Flatlands Avenue & Kings Hwy

 

B100/101:

Mill Basin, E. 66 St

Kings Hwy (B)/ Station

Via Avenue R (B101) & Fillmore Avenue

(B101 replaces B2 between E. 16 St & Flatbush Avenue.)

 

North-South Routes in Central Brooklyn

 

B40: Greenpoint, Metro Avenue or Williamsburg Bridge Plaza

 

Midwood, Flatbush Avenue/Brookyn College (The Junction)

Via New York, Marcy and Nostrand Avenue.

(NEW)

 

B42: Rockaway Parkway, (L )

 

Canarsie Pier & Seaview Village

Via Rockaway Parkway & Seaview Av.

(Don't ask why this is here.)

 

 

B44: (LOCAL SERVICE REROUTED TO ROGERS AVENUE)

 

Williamsburg Bridge Plaza

Sheepshead Bay, Knapp St

Via Nostrand, Rodgers, and Bedford Avenue.

(+SBS )

 

B46: Current route.

(+SBS )

 

B47: Rerouted onto Kings Hwy between Avenue D & Howard Avenue.

 

B49: Bed-Stuy, Fulton St

Sheepshead Bay, Knapp St

Via Bedford Avenue.

 

B50: Williamsburg Bridge Plaza

Manhattan Beach, Kingsboro CC.

Via Washington & Ocean Avenues.

(NEW, LTD )

 

East-West Routes in Central Brooklyn (South of Fulton St)

 

B10/16: Via Clarkson Avenue & Saratoga Avenue. (See South Brooklyn for more info.)

 

B19: Williamsburg Bridge Plaza

Borough Park, 62 St.

Via Howard, Saratoga Avenue, & Empire Blvd.

(NEW, LTD)

 

B23: Brownsville, Rockaway Avenue

Kensington, Cortelyou Road

Via Cortelyou & Clarendon Rds.

 

B25: Current route.

 

B35: Current route.

 

B45: Current route.

 

B65: Current route.

 

B71: Crown Heights, Ralph Avenue

IKEA Terminal

Via 3rd & 6th Sts, (A ) via Union St. (B )

 

East-West Routes in Central Brooklyn (North of Fulton St)

 

B26: Current route.

 

B38: Current route.

 

B52: Current route.

 

B53 A/B:

 

Downtown Brooklyn, Sands St OR Court St

Wyckoff Hospital, Ridgewood.

Via Greene & Lexington Avenue, via Eastern Parkway.

(NEW)

 

Eastern Brooklyn

 

B13: Current route.

 

B14: Extended to Gateway Center.

 

B18: Long Island City, Queens Plaza

Canarsie, E 105 St Station OR Avenue L & East 80 St.

Via Avenue L, Bushwick Avenue, and 11 Avenue (Queens)

(NEW, LTD)

 

B20: Current route

 

B24: Weekend Service Restored.

 

B27: Bushwick Avenue & Metro Ave, Williamsburg

Crecent Avenue Station, Cypress Hills

Via Cypress Ave & Wykcoff Ave

 

B34: Crown Heights, Utica Avenue Sta

Jamaica LIRR Station OR Rockaway Blvd/Cross Bay Blvd.

Via Liberty Avenue.

 

B83: Current route.

 

Extra routes

 

B15: New LTD variant. All buses to JFK Airport are LTD.

 

B103: New stops in Park Slope.

 

 

Western Brooklyn

 

B66: Prospect Park Station

IKEA Terminal

Via Prospect Avenue.

 

Express Routes

 

X27 & 28:

Weekend service restored.

 

BM1, 2, 3, 5:

Saturday service restored fully, Sunday service added, 10 AM-4 PM.

 

BM4: No change.

 

Interboro Buses to/from Queens

 

Q7: Current route.

 

Q8: Current route.

 

Q24: Extended Bushwick, Dekalb Avenue.

 

Q54, 55, 56, 58: Current routes.

 

 

Many credits go to “BrooklynBus,” who created “Routes 2 Better serve S. Brooklyn,” which was an guide and inspiration for much of this document.

 

 

Reply at will!

Edited April 18, 2012 by ThrexxBus

[Threxx]

This thread is open for comment!

[Acela Express]

I spoke with another op a few days ago regarding a possible B68 rush hour LIMITED service, and he mentioned the MTA was looking to implement it with the sign codes uploaded into buses, but never went through with it. Any insight? I bring this up now because I've noticed the amount of day traffic on Coney Island Avenue, and with the normal bus bunching, LIMITED might help speed buses up along the Avenue.

[Threxx]

I spoke with another op a few days ago regarding a possible B68 rush hour LIMITED service, and he mentioned the MTA was looking to implement it with the sign codes uploaded into buses, but never went through with it. Any insight? I bring this up now because I've noticed the amount of day traffic on Coney Island Avenue, and with the normal bus bunching, LIMITED might help speed buses up along the Avenue.

 

 

How? Buses will still get stuck in traffic and still get bunched.

[youngblaze]

How? Buses will still get stuck in traffic and still get bunched.

 

 

Not as bad compared to a local. Being that it can just continue along the route while the local stops and picks up passengers adding to the time it's stuck in traffic.

[Threxx]

Not as bad compared to a local. Being that it can just continue along the route while the local stops and picks up passengers adding to the time it's stuck in traffic.

 

 

OK. Any comments on my ideas?

[Shortline Bus]

Why Sunday service Threexx? You admitted yourself you only been on the BM2 and BM5. The X27/28 had close to Zero ridership on sundays before the June 2010 Doomsday Cuts. That why if weekend service is restored it should start only with Saturday service. Plus the X17 only runs on Saturdays. Not sure if the BM1 and 2 even needs Sunday service.

The MTA does not have endless monies. How do you pay for Sunday service Threexx and also VG8 if he jumps in?

Not to mention running empty buses.

 

 

 

Threxx yes. You never replied to this comment from a few days back above.

[Threxx]

Threxx yes. You never replied to this comment from a few days back above.

 

 

I did, but just in case, I will again.

 

The BM1, 2, & 5, (with the 5 in paticular) could use Sunday service, just as a pilot. The & B103 get sufficient use on Sundays for me to know that Sunday service is OK to test. As far as I know, Woodhaven Bl has no weekend exp service, so a pilot on the BM5 wouldn't hurt. If VG8 decides to jump in, I know how to stand by my idea. Don't worry.

[Shortline Bus]

I did, but just in case, I will again.

 

The BM1, 2, & 5, (with the 5 in paticular) could use Sunday service, just as a pilot. The & B103 get sufficient use on Sundays for me to know that Sunday service is OK to test. As far as I know, Woodhaven Bl has no weekend exp service, so a pilot on the BM5 wouldn't hurt. If VG8 decides to jump in, I know how to stand by my idea. Don't worry.

 

Ok. what about the X27/28 weekend service? is it saturday only.(which IMO is only they need it)

[Threxx]

Ok. what about the X27/28 weekend service? is it saturday only.(which IMO is only they need it)

 

No, it is restored full time, Sat & Sun.

[S78 via Hylan]

I've ridden the X28 on a weekend before. It does NOT need weekend service restored at least in my opinion.

[Threxx]

Minor edit to B10/B16/B19:

 

B10/16: Via Empire Blvd. (See South Brooklyn for more info.)

 

B19: Williamsburg Bridge Plaza

Borough Park, 62 St.

Via Howard, Saratoga Avenue, & Clarkson Avenue.

(NEW, LTD)

[Shortline Bus]

I've ridden the X28 on a weekend before. It does NOT need weekend service restored at least in my opinion.

 

Agree. Yet Threxx makes some of the proposals and never been on the X27/28 ever. Kid (Threexx)if you want to proposals you should ride the line first before making a suggestion.

[Shortline Bus]

Agree to a point S78. Yet Threxx makes some of the proposals and never been on the X27/28 ever. Kid (Threexx)if you want to proposals you should ride the line first before making a suggestion IMO. In case you dont know not trying to being insulting it makes you look like a 'foamer' a slang of transit site members that makes unrealistic ideas without regard to expensives. No offense taken Threxx.

 

The X27/28 has more ridership on Saturdays than the BM1, BM2, 3 & 4. It should have only lost Sunday service.

[Threxx]

Agree. Yet Threxx makes some of the proposals and never been on the X27/28 ever. Kid (Threexx)if you want to proposals you should ride the line first before making a suggestion IMO. In case you dont know not trying to being insulting it makes you look like a 'foamer' a slang of transit site that makes unrealistic ideas without regard to expensives. No offense taken Threxx.

 

I have been on the X27/28, on a weekend, and it had a decent amount of people on board.

 

B2: Kings Plaza, Avenue U/Flatbush Avenue

Coney Island, Stillwell Avenue

Via Avenue P, R & Shell Road

 

B5: Kings Plaza, Avenue U/Flatbush Avenue

Bay Ridge, 69 St/Shore Road

Via Avenue P & 65 St

(NEW, LTD)

 

The new B2/5 combo.

[Shortline Bus]

I have been on the X27/28, on a weekend, and it had a decent amount of people on board.

 

.

 

What day Threxx? I used to ride the X28 'reguarly' when i used to live in Sea Gate/Coney Island during the Stillwell Terminals/Manhattan Bridge closing between 2002-'04. Even Sunday service even then was very low until the end in 2010 with zero riders.

 

Again Threxx it seems you dont take me serious and are not open to honestly as I am a 39 year old man and you in middle/high school. You seem to be VG8 younger brother lol. Just have to agree to disagree.

[Threxx]

What day Threxx? I used to ride the X28 'reguarly' when i used to live in Sea Gate/Coney Island during the Stillwell Terminals/Manhattan Bridge closing between 2002-'04. Even Sunday service even then was very low until the end in 2010 with zero riders.

 

Again Threxx it seems you dont take me serious and are not open to honestly as I am a 39 year old man and you in middle/high school. You seem to be VG8 younger brother lol. Just have to agree to disagree.

 

I am open to your opinion. I just disagree.

 

It was a Saturday. When we began to head into Manhattan, the bus had about 15 people on it. Good for a Saturday in Brooklyn.

Edited April 19, 2012 by ThrexxBus

[qjtransitmaster]

not gonna lie shortline is right almost nobody used sunday x28 even saturday I felt alone on that bus Bm3 southern portion well DK about this

[BrooklynBus]

Thanks. The entire B32 is on that map.

 

The B1 to Knapp Street is a very important part of my plans. I actually was thinking about various possibilities for the B1 and other routes while I was typing my post, so I guess this caused my posts to be rather discombobulated. I actually wanted the B1 to stay the same west of Ocean Pkwy, but reroute it to Knapp St (so it no longer serves KCC) east of Ocean Pkwy.

 

I got this idea from a thread you created a while back ("Why is Sheepshead Bay so complacent about bus service?"), to which B35 posted a response saying that the B4 with its service to a small stretch of the 86 St shopping area is not very attractive to those who live in Sheepshead and want to go to 86 St for recreation.

 

On the other hand if you connect the real 86 St bus (B1) to Sheepshead Bay, I think more people in Sheepshead, especially in Plumb Beach, will want to ride this east-west bus service than the B4, and thus the new east-west bus in Sheepshead Bay (B1) can have better headways than the current east-west bus (B4).

 

Then something can be sent to KCC to replace the B1 and maybe that route can have very good service levels (5-6 mins rush hours, 8-10 mins off-hours) since KCC is a major trip generator and the route would also serve places like Coney Island, Caesar's Bay, etc. Thus perhaps there could be even more justification for "very good" service levels.

 

For better or for worse, I wish to exhaust every avenue to get service on every NYCT bus line in operation to what I consider "very good" service levels.

 

I have this compulsion and it results in my making rather unorthodox proposals in an attempt to get service on as many bus lines as possible to these levels, because my fear or notion is that if service is not good enough on a bus line, the ridership is not easily sustainable, and the bus line remains mired in mediocre to crappy service levels forever (read: Bx10, which I dealt with for almost 20 years and generally do not wish to deal with ever again) and nobody wants to deal with said bus line (Bx10 or others).

 

But anyway, this is the gist of it: You said there needs to be a reason for the patronage to materialize. If the B1 went to Knapp Street (and the line stayed on 86 St from 4th Ave to McDonald Ave), the reason for the patronage to materialize would be that the people that live around Emmons Ave and Belt Pkwy would have a direct bus route to all of 86 St, and hopefully the route would have "very good" service levels. Again this is assuming we keep the B1 on 86 St from 4th Ave to McDonald Ave.

 

 

 

I don't like the B32 because it is too short and doesn't serve enough purposes.Also, the loop it makes is too large. It is not good practice for a route to go on one street and not return on a neighboring street, but three avenue blocks away.

 

I've always viewed bus rerouting like a jigsaw puzzle. The trick is to figure out what to do with the left over remaining pieces. Not to sound insulting but anyone can come up with an additional layer of service. The problem with that is that it is just too expensive. You have to integrate it into the existing system. That is the problem with you proposed B1. You haven't figured out what to send to Kingsborough College. Also, I don't think 86th Street is enough of a draw to justify increasing service on Emmons Avenue. The current route ends with a magnet, the college and the beach. There is no magnet near Knapp Street other than the UA Theater. A better idea to increase service on Emmons Avenue would be to have a route from Rockaway connect to the Sheepshead Bay Station.

 

I think B35 via Church's proposal makes more sense than yours. At least he thought it out a little more and thought about the existing service without just adding another layer.