Brooklyn Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

That’s because traffic congestion and overlapping service has cause serious reliability issues on all parts of the routes entering it, even those far from it. By building a transit center, and shorting routes to it and replacing the northern end with a bus shuttle, then we should see reliability improve on the truncated routes, which is what we all want to see anyway.

But on Downtown Brooklyn service, is it really worth sacrificing the reliability of these routes for the many people riding outside of the Downtown area to get the very few people all the way into Downtown Brooklyn when some of these people have adequate subway alternatives from all directions? That’s the million dollar question.

Congestion doesn't just go away because you shorten the routes and provide shuttle buses. Give me a break. I wish some of you guys actually used more than maps to come up with these proposals. There's all sorts of background information that should be looked at when discussing service in general. Demographics, politics, ridership patterns and on and on.  That's something I was discussing with BrooklynBus when we met a few Sundays ago.  There's also budgetary constraints to consider.

[JeremiahC99]

Just now, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Congestion doesn't just go away because you shorten the routes and provide shuttle buses. Give me a break. I wish some of you guys actually used more than maps to come up with these proposals. There's all sorts of background information that should be looked at when discussing service in general. Demographics, politics, ridership patterns and on and on.  That's something I was discussing with BrooklynBus when we met a few Sundays ago.  There's also budgetary constraints to consider.

All of that is true, but the problem with overlapping service is that buses do have to compete with each other, and other vehicles, for road space, especially on Fulton Street, Jay Street, Livingston Street, Adams Street, and Cadman Plaza West. What this amounts to is unreliable service that is felt elsewhere. I’ve personally seen buses double park alongside Cadman Plaza W during rush hours and middays as well when I walked to/from City Tech via the park. One shuttle service should reduce the amount of buses on the road, and end the competition of road space that always occur.

Ridership over the years has dictated that buses have at times carried virtually no one into the area, though crowds do build up at certain stops, especially in the afternoon. However, the buses are not consistently crowded. During one of my short afternoon rides from Jay St to Borough Hall on the B26, not only was no one on the bus when it pulled up, I was the only one on the bus for the rest of the ride.

And finally, I do agree we have budget constraints to consider. Since the finances are not rosy now, then the idea of a shuttle service and a off-street bus terminal should hold off until the situation improves.

Furthermore, if it improves faster than expected, then we can just scrap the idea of having an unattractive bus shuttle and have a light rail or a street car on the same corridor instead. In an old Sheepshead bites article, he said that there is enough demand for a light rail from Atlantic Terminal to Brooklyn Bridge Park, with some going to Red Hook if the buses stopped running on Fulton Mall and Livingston Street. Maybe it could tie into the BQX streetcar Mayor DeBlasio is proposing.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, JeremiahC99 said:

All of that is true, but the problem with overlapping service is that buses do have to compete with each other, and other vehicles, for road space, especially on Fulton Street, Jay Street, Livingston Street, Adams Street, and Cadman Plaza West. What this amounts to is unreliable service that is felt elsewhere. I’ve personally seen buses double park alongside Cadman Plaza W during rush hours and middays as well when I walked to/from City Tech via the park. One shuttle service should reduce the amount of buses on the road, and end the competition of road space that always occur.

Ridership over the years has dictated that buses have at times carried virtually no one into the area, though crowds do build up at certain stops, especially in the afternoon. However, the buses are not consistently crowded. During one of my short afternoon rides from Jay St to Borough Hall on the B26, not only was no one on the bus when it pulled up, I was the only one on the bus for the rest of the ride.

And finally, I do agree we have budget constraints to consider. Since the finances are not rosy now, then the idea of a shuttle service and a off-street bus terminal should hold off until the situation improves.

Furthermore, if it improves faster than expected, then we can just scrap the idea of having an unattractive bus shuttle and have a light rail or a street car on the same corridor instead. In an old Sheepshead bites article, he said that there is enough demand for a light rail from Atlantic Terminal to Brooklyn Bridge Park, with some going to Red Hook if the buses stopped running on Fulton Mall and Livingston Street. Maybe it could tie into the BQX streetcar Mayor DeBlasio is proposing.

It's not as if you're necessarily having tons of fewer buses running though. You keep talking about overlapping or "duplicative" service.  You would be replacing the aforementioned service with a frequent shuttle service, so you're still going to have buses competing for road space.  

[Future ENY OP]

12 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

That’s because traffic congestion and overlapping service has cause serious reliability issues on all parts of the routes entering it, even those far from it. By building a transit center, and shorting routes to it and replacing the northern end with a bus shuttle, then we should see reliability improve on the truncated routes, which is what we all want to see anyway.

But on Downtown Brooklyn service, is it really worth sacrificing the reliability of these routes for the many people riding outside of the Downtown area to get the very few people all the way into Downtown Brooklyn when some of these people have adequate subway alternatives from all directions? That’s the million dollar question.

WELP. Are you crazy or what?? 

First off NO SPLITTING OF DOWNTOWN BROOKLYN SERVICES. ALTHOUGH YOU HAVE ABOUT 15 to 20 lines heading into the main Central business district- Downtown Brooklyn you would want to enhance service rather than split the services. 

.......... another thing Denver RTD is not New York City   

[R68OnBroadway]

1 hour ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Why is everyone so paranoid about transferring? It’s very minor. It’s only going to add maybe 3-5 minutes to ones commute. And this shuttle is going to be free anyway.

This isn't the subway... you seem to be forgetting several factors here.

1. Buses are subject to significantly more variation and congestion than subways. People are more or less fine with transferring on the subway since they know that a train will show up provided there are no/few delays and/or G.Os. Buses don't have this luxury given traffic, road construction and their considerably more infrequent service. 

2. The elements. Subway stations (even the elevated ones) have some sort of barrier to keep out wind during the winter or have canopies for shade. Bus stops don't always have this and shelters are not always the most sanitary and can sometimes be packed. 

3. Stop frequency. Buses stop much more frequently than any other form of transport, so needing to transfer may cause people to simply stop using the bus given that it could be faster to walk on one of the trip legs. Now before you ramble on about stop consolidation and the like, that can only work in flat areas with stops that are lightly or moderately used (buses stopping every few blocks in the Bronx makes sense given topography while doing so in Manhattan just slows buses down). 

55 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

But on Downtown Brooklyn service, is it really worth sacrificing the reliability of these routes for the many people riding outside of the Downtown area to get the very few people all the way into Downtown Brooklyn when some of these people have adequate subway alternatives from all directions? That’s the million dollar question.

The problem with the subway alternatives is that many stations aren't accessible (so many disabled riders use the bus). 

Also, interlining isn't as much of a problem on buses since they are using open streets, not tracks in tunnels connected by switches present at only certain points. 

[JeremiahC99]

31 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

WELP. Are you crazy or what?? 

First off NO SPLITTING OF DOWNTOWN BROOKLYN SERVICES. ALTHOUGH YOU HAVE ABOUT 15 to 20 lines heading into the main Central business district- Downtown Brooklyn you would want to enhance service rather than split the services. 

.......... another thing Denver RTD is not New York City   

That would be a great idea for short term solutions, but long term, Fulton St, Livingston St, Jay St, Cadman Plaza W, and Adams Street may not handle the additional bus traffic, even with some radical street redesign of all corridors. This is where we need to think outside the box, and that shuttle service is one step towards that. I like the idea of enhancing the existing services, but it may not be enough.

Yes Denver RTD is not the MTA, but what we should do is take the best ideas from all over the world, and apply them here (with some modification). Worked with 14th Street.

32 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It's not as if you're necessarily having tons of fewer buses running though. You keep talking about overlapping or "duplicative" service.  You would be replacing the aforementioned service with a frequent shuttle service, so you're still going to have buses competing for road space.  

True that the road space competition may not end, you are right, but however, overlapping service does bring another detriment to ridership growth: confusion about the bus system. Since too many routes serve the same areas, there are a lot of option for these customers to take. The downside however is that since too many bus lines serve the same bus stop, that confuses both the unfamiliar and (to some extent) the familiar rider about the options to get to their destination. Reducing the overlapping service should make riders more clearer about the service being offered. More specifically, from the 2011 DOT study:

Quote

About twenty bus routes serve the Study Area. These bus routes serve a variety of neighborhoods throughout Brooklyn, expanding to almost 300 route-miles throughout New York City. Each route is important and necessary to serve the various neighborhoods in Brooklyn. However, problems arise when the many routes converge in the Downtown Core. As shown in Figure 2-5, there is a concentration of bus lines along Adams Street, Cadman Plaza West, Flatbush Avenue (south of Atlantice Avenue), Fulton Street, Jay Street, and Livingston Street, which is indicative of overlapping routes. Overlapping service is an issue for surface transportation because the many bus routes compete with each other, as well as other vehicles, for lane space. This leads to bus congestion, delays, and unreliable service. Increased bus congestion, coupled with narrow lanes, has a negative impact on the bike and pedestrian environment within Downtown Brooklyn. In addition, overlapping service increases rider confusion because several buses serve the same bus stops. Riders unfamiliar with the system might not be aware of the various transportation options.

In the meantime (short term), there are other wats to improve the reliability of the bus system, such as enforcing the bus lanes, better traffic management, etc. 

2 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

 

The problem with the subway alternatives is that many stations aren't accessible (so many disabled riders use the bus). 

Also, interlining isn't as much of a problem on buses since they are using open streets, not tracks in tunnels connected by switches present at only certain points. 

The subway problems I am actually aware of. Hoyt Street (both on Fulton and Schermerhorn) and parts of the Borough Hall station have no elevators. However, now that the RTS and D60s are officially retired, getting off and on the bus should be no problem. The shuttle will be able to accommodate the disabled riders with no problem. It is just they won’t be subject to Downtown reliability issues before they get to Downtown.

Buses travel on streets that are already taxed with congestion and double parking problems. The shuttle service should insulated the truncated routes from Downtown-induced reliability.

[R68OnBroadway]

2 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Buses travel on streets that are already taxed with congestion and double parking problems. The shuttle service should insulated the truncated routes from Downtown-induced reliability.

To fix those problems:

• add cameras on buses to ticket double parkers/people in bus lanes
• add bus lanes where necessary
• make the bus more frequent if needed to attract higher ridership 
• get the NYPD to actually follow the rules and not be entitled pricks when it comes to parking rules

By cutting these routes back to areas outside of downtown Brooklyn, you've screwed over both people in cars and buses since bus commutes are now longer and car riders stick to cars since there isn't a viable alternative. If you instead had ticketing cameras on buses and other methods to speed the buses up, you would not only make the lives of bus riders easier but you would also encourage people using cars to use the bus. 

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Ridership into/out of Downtown is very light and duplicated by more reliable subway service.

QFB - Quoted for Bull Shit.

Try telling all the people filling up B41's, B103's, B61's, and the Downtown-Ridgewood routes that crap about ridership being very light.

This is what happens when you piggyback off other people's shit & attempt to formulate an opinion of your own... It gets exposed real easy..... You clearly don't know what the f*** you're talking about....

[Future ENY OP]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

QFB - Quoted for Bull Shit.

Try telling all the people filling up B41's, B103's, B61's, and the Downtown-Ridgewood routes that crap about ridership being very light.

This is what happens when you piggyback off other people's shit & attempt to formulate an opinion of your own... It gets exposed real easy..... You clearly don't know what the f*** you're talking about....

I want to know what world is this kid living. If my senses serve me correct with the 99 under his name he must be under 21 and doesn’t have the full knowledge of NYC. 

[Lil 57]

4 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

All of that is true, but the problem with overlapping service is that buses do have to compete with each other, and other vehicles, for road space, especially on Fulton Street, Jay Street, Livingston Street, Adams Street, and Cadman Plaza West. What this amounts to is unreliable service that is felt elsewhere. I’ve personally seen buses double park alongside Cadman Plaza W during rush hours and middays as well when I walked to/from City Tech via the park. One shuttle service should reduce the amount of buses on the road, and end the competition of road space that always occur.

Ridership over the years has dictated that buses have at times carried virtually no one into the area, though crowds do build up at certain stops, especially in the afternoon. However, the buses are not consistently crowded. During one of my short afternoon rides from Jay St to Borough Hall on the B26, not only was no one on the bus when it pulled up, I was the only one on the bus for the rest of the ride.

And finally, I do agree we have budget constraints to consider. Since the finances are not rosy now, then the idea of a shuttle service and a off-street bus terminal should hold off until the situation improves.

Furthermore, if it improves faster than expected, then we can just scrap the idea of having an unattractive bus shuttle and have a light rail or a street car on the same corridor instead. In an old Sheepshead bites article, he said that there is enough demand for a light rail from Atlantic Terminal to Brooklyn Bridge Park, with some going to Red Hook if the buses stopped running on Fulton Mall and Livingston Street. Maybe it could tie into the BQX streetcar Mayor DeBlasio is proposing.

First of all, can you provide us with a map of where you would put this "Shuttle" and terminate the other routes?

Also, Downtown Brooklyn is supposed to be a hub, where people would transfer to other bus routes. Not the best idea because you would be forcing people to make another transfer, and more transfers = less reliability = lost ridership.

[EastFlatbushLarry]

Sorry not sorry, but any attempt to compare, draw comparison or emulate tactics/methods used in Denver to what could possibly work in New York City of all places is a futile attempt, akin to an attempt to draw similarities between cunnilingus & penetration... it's just not the same. not by a long shot. I've read individuals bring up MARTA or MTA Maryland, etc... cute, but no. NYC is unique in many ways, one of which being that it's infrastructure is pretty much set in stone. unlike other places where there's still room for improvement & flexibility, NYC suffers from the affliction of having to come up with it's own unique tactics & methods that fit NYC's own unique issues & circumstances, unseen in any other market... especially cities that have populations that can't compare to one of our boros.

Denver population 2019 = 682,545

brooklyn population 2019 = 2.9 million & counting.

#SorryNotSorry denver can't help us. 

Edited June 6, 2019 by EastFlatbushLarry

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

I want to know what world is this kid living. If my senses serve me correct with the 99 under his name he must be under 21 and doesn’t have the full knowledge of NYC. 

I'll put it this way...

If you kept taking them down & passing them around, there'd be no more bottles of beer on the wall....

1 hour ago, Lil 57 said:

First of all, can you provide us with a map of where you would put this "Shuttle" and terminate the other routes?

Also, Downtown Brooklyn is supposed to be a hub, where people would transfer to other bus routes. Not the best idea because you would be forcing people to make another transfer, and more transfers = less reliability = lost ridership.

Downtown Brooklyn is a CBD... If there's to be any mega bus terminal of sorts, it should be IN that part of Brooklyn, not on the fringe of the neighborhood.... The aim is to transport people directly there with as few modes as possible.... Exacerbating people's commutes/commuting times via blatantly forcing xfers is what this simplistic nitwit is supporting - and on top of it, claims that riders' commutes would still be direct - all predicated off the lie that people are not riding buses "directly" into the heart of Downtown Brooklyn.....

Talk about doubling down on stupid.

[Around the Horn]

7 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

But on Downtown Brooklyn service, is it really worth sacrificing the reliability of these routes for the many people riding outside of the Downtown area to get the very few people all the way into Downtown Brooklyn when some of these people have adequate subway alternatives from all directions? That’s the million dollar question.

You clearly have never been on the B26, B38, B41 or B52... 

[Bay Ridge Express]

With the  being the way it is, it could very well take his proposal and shove it right up the Brooklyn redesign...

🤮

[EastFlatbushLarry]

13 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

You clearly have never been on the B26, B38, B41 or B52... 

adequate subway service he says... yet elderly folks on all the bus lines mentioned ESPECIALLY the b25 & 45 avoid lines like the & specifically for how inadequate they in fact are. I'm guessing aside from never riding buses out of downtown Brooklyn, he's never stood at Barclay's on the platform, Barclay's on the platform Hoyt-Schermerhorn on the  platform, jay-metrotech for the (i mean, really... i can do this all night) at 2:15pm waiting in vain while packed trains pull up fresh from Manhattan island, to the point you say f**k it, I'll take the *insert bus line here*

Edited June 6, 2019 by EastFlatbushLarry

[B35 via Church]

5 minutes ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

Sorry not sorry, but any attempt to compare, draw comparison or emulate tactics/methods used in Denver to what could possibly work in New York City of all places is a futile attempt, akin to an attempt to draw similarities between cunnilingus & penetration... it's just not the same. not by a long shot. I've read individuals bring up MARTA or MTA Maryland, etc... cute, but no. NYC is unique in many ways, one of which being that it's infrastructure is pretty much set in stone. unlike other places where there's still room for improvement & flexibility, NYC suffers from the affliction of having to come up with it's own unique tactics & methods that fit NYC's own unique issues & circumstances, unseen in any other market... especially cities that have populations that can't compare to one of our boros.

Denver population 2019 = 682,545

brooklyn population 2019 = 2.9 million & counting.

#SorryNotSorry denver can't help us. 

Worse than that, what's being lost in translation with that DOT proposal he keeps parroting, is that the buses themselves are not the cause the of congestion in Downtown.... That's what that proposal's aiming to remedy by dumping people off, short of the heart of Downtown Brooklyn for a circulator to take people into the heart of Downtown Brooklyn.... It's a false narrative.... It's putting the cart before the horse.... Yes, the buses add to the congestion, but taking buses off, say, Livingston, Atlantic, Court/Smith, and the like, isn't going to do "jack" shit for the congestion that plagues Downtown Brooklyn....

But laughing boy here will never convey an accurate synopsis of the sort... Because he CAN'T.

But I gotta read about, adhere, and succumb to what's going on in Denver - when every damn B61 here in Brooklyn after the first 2 stops in Downtown Brooklyn leaves packed to the god damn gills....

#lielikearug #youneedmorepeople #stopsleepinginclass #oureducationsystemsfailed

[Lex]

Just now, EastFlatbushLarry said:

adequate subway service he says... yet elderly folks on all the bus lines mentioned ESPECIALLY the b25 & 45 avoid lines like the & specifically for how inadequate they in fact are. I'm guessing aside from never riding buses out of downtown Brooklyn, he's never stood at Barclay's on the platform, Barclay's on the platform Hoyt-Schmerhorn on the jay-metrotech for the (i mean, really... i can do this all night) at 2:15pm waiting in vain while packed trains pull up fresh from Manhattan island, to the point you say f**k it, I'll take the *insert bus line here*

As someone who can use both the bus and subway to reach Downtown Brooklyn, I'd also like to point out that at least a few people will use the subway in one direction and the bus in the other if it saves money (especially if they can't pay the full fare again).

[B35 via Church]

20 minutes ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

With the  being the way it is, it could very well take his proposal and shove it right up the Brooklyn redesign...

It's a DOT proposal...

Barring interlining (which would defeat the purpose), a free circulator would mean more buses the MTA would have to supply & costs they'd have to eat on top of it.... They won't ponder the thought.

You're not going to "Downtown coNNection" Downtown Brooklyn either....

19 minutes ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

adequate subway service he says... yet elderly folks on all the bus lines mentioned ESPECIALLY the b25 & 45 avoid lines like the & specifically for how inadequate they in fact are. I'm guessing aside from never riding buses out of downtown Brooklyn, he's never stood at Barclay's on the platform, Barclay's on the platform Hoyt-Schermerhorn on the  platform, jay-metrotech for the (i mean, really... i can do this all night) at 2:15pm waiting in vain while packed trains pull up fresh from Manhattan island, to the point you say f**k it, I'll take the *insert bus line here*

"During one of my short afternoon rides from Jay St to Borough Hall on the B26, not only was no one on the bus when it pulled up, I was the only one on the bus for the rest of the ride."

Nice sample size & a completely fair assessment of bus ridership in & out of Downtown Brooklyn, wouldn't you say?

You just can not make this stuff up.

15 minutes ago, Lex said:

As someone who can use both the bus and subway to reach Downtown Brooklyn, I'd also like to point out that at least a few people will use the subway in one direction and the bus in the other if it saves money (especially if they can't pay the full fare again).

For starters, B41/B103 riders know all about this practice.

Edited June 6, 2019 by B35 via Church

[Bay Ridge Express]

2 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

It's a DOT proposal...

Barring interlining (which would defeat the purpose), a circulator would mean more buses the MTA would have to supply.... They won't ponder the thought.

You're not going to "Downtown coNNection" Downtown Brooklyn either....

Would you say that the similar proposal in Co-op City works better or worse in comparison? Considering they used "ridership patterns" to justify their point

[Lex]

15 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

"During one of my short afternoon rides from Jay St to Borough Hall on the B26, not only was no one on the bus when it pulled up, I was the only one on the bus for the rest of the ride."

No facepalm is enough...

(I completely overlooked this. Thanks for pointing it out.)

[B35 via Church]

10 minutes ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

Would you say that the similar proposal in Co-op City works better or worse in comparison? Considering they used "ridership patterns" to justify their point

Long answer: The suggestion{s} that involves Co-Op City that ultimately results in the limitation of the amount of routes traveling b/w Co-Op & PBP doesn't remotely compare to dumping a gargantuan amount of Brooklynites from all over the borough at one centralized location, for the sake of taking a circulator to get into the heart of Downtown Brooklyn....

Short answer: Exponentially better.

[Bay Ridge Express]

5 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Long answer: The suggestion{s} that involves Co-Op City that ultimately results in the limitation of the amount of routes traveling b/w Co-Op & PBP doesn't remotely compare to dumping a gargantuan amount of Brooklynites from all over the borough at one centralized location, for the sake of taking a circulator to get into the heart of Downtown Brooklyn....

Short answer: Exponentially better.

Although he does seem to think the opposite...

6 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

since too many bus lines serve the same bus stop, that confuses both the unfamiliar and (to some extent) the familiar rider about the options to get to their destination.

So you would sacrifice convenience, time, and road space for familiarity with the routes?

[EastFlatbushLarry]

43 minutes ago, Lex said:

As someone who can use both the bus and subway to reach Downtown Brooklyn, I'd also like to point out that at least a few people will use the subway in one direction and the bus in the other if it saves money (especially if they can't pay the full fare again).

lol yep especially when you know you're not making a day out of your downtown Brooklyn experience... if you know you're just going to Macy's, dr. Jay's, etc. this method proves cost effective... a quasi-2 for 1 deal

 

43 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Nice sample size & a completely fair assessment of bus ridership in & out of Downtown Brooklyn, wouldn't you say?

as if this speaks to the mass volume & quantity of Halsey Street patrons (letalone any other corridor to downtown Brooklyn) consistently being bussed into downtown Brooklyn since the rock of ages was a pebble 😒

[Future ENY OP]

1 hour ago, Around the Horn said:

You clearly have never been on the B26, B38, B41 or B52... 

May I add the B54, B103, B61, B57, B62, B63, B65 all stop within the CBD of Downtown Brooklyn. 

[Around the Horn]

13 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

May I add the B54, B103, B61, B57, B62, B63, B65 all stop within the CBD of Downtown Brooklyn. 

I was simply naming the ones I can personally vouch for