Fleet Swap Discussion Thread

[MHV9218]

Jesus, who gives a shit? People behaving badly. Like it's anything new. You know who're just as bad as a minority of railfans? A minority of non-railfans. Pissing in cars, jumping around, acting like idiots. It always happens. Spare me these sanctimonious self-righteous lectures. 

[realizm]

Jesus, who gives a shit? People behaving badly. Like it's anything new. You know who're just as bad as a minority of railfans? A minority of non-railfans. Pissing in cars, jumping around, acting like idiots. It always happens. Spare me these sanctimonious self-righteous lectures. 

 

Its annoying thats the point. Self righteous lectures? No its about people knowing their role here. How would you like it when you get home from work you end up in a car full of unruly kids. Foamers at that? Do tell. I'd be pissed to no end. I dont think you really understand the scope of the problem here.

[DJ MC]

It's the overall lack of principles being set and morals being forgotten that caused the fallout on the yesterday, MHV. This has nothing to do with users being self righteous. They're just telling certain fans they need to conduct themselves better when it comes to events and fantrips.

Edited April 14, 2014 by DJ MC

[realizm]

I was sick with the flu and I look on Facebook and saw all the madness...people scaring passengers off the train, holding the doors at every stop for pictures, some smelling like hot ass on a summer day on Mercury, the works.

[MHV9218]

Its annoying thats the point. Self righteous lectures? No its about people knowing their role here. How would you like it when you get home from work you end up in a car full of unruly kids. Foamers at that? Do tell. I'd be pissed to no end. I dont think you really understand the scope of the problem here.

 

It's only gonna fall on deaf ears. None of the kids misbehaving are going to listen to these rants are take that into their choices, and in the meantime it's just a waste of space for the rest of us. And I still maintain that badly-acting railfans are no worse than badly-acting non-railfans.

[4P3607]

The majority of today's railfan community is completley immature compared to yesterday's. Just imagine what tomorrow's will be like.

 

Any news on the / swap? Also heard the R32 might happen again since they need to do more vibration testing.

[Snowblock]

If all the young generation wants is paparazzi railfans chasing current events, irresponsibly posting stupid things on the internet, making sound effects, building crap for video games and train simulators, and goofing off and acting like jackasses, that's all you'll have, and the future of the hobby will indeed be a bunch of people sitting around at an ERA or UTC meeting watching slides, making sound effects, and operating video game trains while lamenting the fact that every one of the cars photographed or depicted in game is gone forever.

Hey hey now, some of the stuff being done in BVE is pretty fun. I've brought my laptop to work and we play BVE between trips in the crew room - challenging each other to see who can get the top speed through a tunnel without hitting a red signal. Of course, everyone points out every little mistake in each layout (hey, there's not a timer there!!!). On the other hand, I really wonder how some of those R160 announcements get recorded, especially for the routes they don't normally run on, and then I decided I'm better off just NOT asking...... I also worry that many of the railfans who play these games think that it's a substitute for schoolcar and get the impression that they can operate REAL trains just because they can do it in the game. There's no brake pipe rupture feature in BVE though....that's what got Darius McCollum caught the first time! 

 

Anyway, I hope development on those projects continues. I agree with pretty much everything else you stated though.

 

And I specifically asked that everyone ACT RESPECTFUL if you were gonna come out. If you can't handle something out of the ordinary, then you don't deserve to be riding. That's why from this point forward I WILL keep my mouth shut out about anything new or interesting coming up or seen out in the field. After that fiasco with the to Flatbush my rookie year (dear god, how many of you skipped school just so you could ride an R62 down Nostrand Ave?), I knew this was gonna happen. And I'll have no part in it ever happening again.

 

BTW - I've seen the photos and some of the posters here I recognize. So don't give me a bullshit story that YOU were behaving and it was just everyone else acting up.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Snowblock

[M. Friday 1986]

The events that have occurred yesterday were one of the lowest I’ve seen in the community. And while I agree with any of the things that’s been said on this thread the last few hours, I would like to add one more thing:

 

It’s true. Lots of us take this hobby for granted. Lots of us would rather chase than actually ride the trains. Lots of us would do anything at all costs to take that one photo. Lots of us will complain how one type of railcar should be saved or how we don’t like this other type of railcar, or how we like one particular kind of subway car and make sure no one else forgets it. We rather not get to know the old timers who have had many years of experience with the equipment and instead, blabber on about why we like *insert car model here* so much. Many of us have no idea what goes into preservation or what makes a train run….we might not know all the nuts and bolts that make that subway car – a subway car. But we can tell you, for example, how many R188s ran on the today. A number of us even have had the chance to ride the front car of a train through just about any part of the system looking at the rails though the window as the train moves from station to station. But no, we have to get that shot or that video of that one tunnel we’ve seen many times…..because yes, we’re riding on an R1-9 and that’s just a completely different experience as an R40, or an R44, or an R160. Because most of us are only focused on who’s the better railfan or the better busfan.

 

And this is all unfortunate. And really sad.

 

It’s one reason why I ended up leaving the community years ago. The community became one focused on unnecessary drama, rather than the interests that attracted most of us here in the first place.

 

But then last summer, something happened that brought me back.

 

Much of the time I was gone, from time to time, I used to lurk onto various forums. One thing that caught my attention was this guy right here:  https://www.facebook.com/r36preservation

 

This guy is doing something that many people have made fun of in the past for. He saw that some subway cars were being retired. He saw the historical value of those subway cars. He was inspired to do something about it. He focused his attention on a pair of subway cars that sat in storage for a number of years. I even remember he received flack for years ago for trying to do something about it.Then last year, we lost those subway cars to the scrapper. That caused him to really work hard on trying to get to where he is today – raising funds, organizing events and uniting various communities. All while attempting a saving history: two subway cars that are just about almost complete in restoration. I feel that, if it weren’t for this guy, perhaps certain things would’ve happened. I know all that he’s done has been a really interesting experience and he’s learned a lot along the way. But at least he’s doing something. Something that we could be doing. I gave him $20 towards his efforts. And I regret nothing. I thank him for what he's done and continues to do.

 

It’s because of that one guy….and because I saw how we’ve lost a number of subway cars last year to the scrapper…that made me want to go out and take photos of what we have now saved. I guess this is why  I’ve taken as much time to try to document what we have right now. It might seem half-assed. I will admit to that. And I know that this is not enough.

 

But thing is, I want to do more. And we should do more. I want to do more than just snap photos and gather data. I want to not only learn the equipment, but “feel” it. I want to know what goes behind keeping the equipment we have running. I want to help restore. I want to paint. I want to clean. A few times a week I pass by 207^th Street Yard to and from work, and I see these R12 and R14 cars sitting there. Lots of times I think to myself “Shoot, if they went out to ask us to volunteer to help ‘em clean, fix up, help assemble, and even paint these metal boxes of railcars, where do I f*ckin’ sign up?”

 

But how? Where do we start? Lots of us, myself included, can only go as far as, say, donate money whenever we visit the Transit Museum. I make it a point to donate some money – whether $20 or $5, or even some spare change – whenever I visit. Because even spare change can go a long way – maybe towards that one cracked window that’s covered with scotch take on the one R15 subway car, for example.

 

Here’s where I make a plea to the museums out there that have personnel and volunteers who work hard and pour in their blood, sweat, and tears, and their souls, to keep the equipment we’ve grown up with working. It’s because of them we can be nostalgic and relive the memories we had when riding that subway car or on that bus. Specifically, I make this plea to the New York Transit Museum and NYCT.

 

Other museums, like the Illinois Railway Museum, regularly ask for volunteers. They make it an effort to look for volunteers to help fix, clean, restore their equipment, as well as help ‘em move. They do many things to keep the public interested and wanting to see more – from music festivals to air shows….they make an effort to bring people in.  And they make it worthwhile. That’s how they get their donations and the help they need.

 

Why can’t we really do that here? Not that NYCT doesn’t make an effort in bringing people in to ride the trains and visit their collections. They make an effort to bring people for special events to the museum occasionally. But is it enough? Can they do more than just put up a few lines on their website? Or on a small ad on the train, or by a few blurbs on social media? Why not attract more people to the museum with bigger ads? Or with other mediums (i.e.: newspapers)? Don’t just aim towards the railfan or the busfan or to the kids who do enjoy the collections….aim to bring all kinds of people to visit the collections. Find ways to make the casual rider or the Average Joe care about the museum. Advertise on the news…hell, get the mayor in on it. I remember those MOD trips that went literally everywhere. Why not have more fantrips like that, rather than just one part of the line? I heard that in the past, there used to be auctions. Why can’t we have those again?

 

And speaking of transit fans, why have they not reached out to this very community? These sites?  We have more than just transit fans: we come from all walks and boast various different kinds of talent in various crafts. Wood-making. Painting. Assembly. Electricity. Mechanics. Even as something simple as cleaning. Documenting. Filing. Advertising. You name it, it can be found here.  I know of a handful of people who, if there were a way to help out in restoration, even one part of a subway car, or one bus, they would be more than willing to do it, with little to even no pay. Bring us in. Entice us in. Attract us to the equipment. Not only give us reasons on why we should ride ‘em instead of chasing ‘em, but show us why it is important to do so. Why not open your doors, give us some paint brushes, some old rags, a broom and a mop, and we can give out hearts, blood, sweat, and tears to keeping the equipment we enjoy riding on.

 

I know that the suggestions I made above all involve money. Everything involves money. And we as transit fans have to also do our part. If we want to see Redbirds restored…if we want to keep seeing buses running every holiday season, we have to do more than just take a photo. We have to make it a point to put in some spare change in that clear box near the exit at the museum. Ask questions and listen, rather than speak and “know it all”. Let’s start making gatherings, collect funds towards attempting to fix up something that needs attention (and nowadays, it’s a lot of it). Let’s participate more in these events.

 

The point is that, we need to collaborate with one another in a positive and effective way. Let’s work together. Let’s interact with one another. Let’s get to know each other. Let’s actually do things towards the hobby we enjoy. Museums, open your doors. Both your front doors and your back doors. Ask for the help, let us help. Some of us want to make a difference. Try to bring about a bigger audience. Attract us to your grounds. Prove to us why we should care. Fellow transit fans, let us not only take a photo or document what we see, but also let us show that we do care. Let’s act – we don’t only like the *insert favorite subway car*, but we will do all we can to make sure nothing happens to it in the course of time, so that our kids, and their kids, and so on and so forth, can enjoy what we enjoy. Ask ourselves why we like what we enjoy and find ways to express that through actions.

 

These opinions are solely of my own, whether one agrees or otherwise. They are not to offend or make one person or group look better than another. They do not reflect a larger group, these opinions are just my $2.50. Thanks for reading.

Edited April 14, 2014 by M. Friday 1986

[Around the Horn]

I totally agree M Friday

[Dj Hammers]

Hey hey now, some of the stuff being done in BVE is pretty fun. I've brought my laptop to work and we play BVE between trips in the crew room - challenging each other to see who can get the top speed through a tunnel without hitting a red signal. Of course, everyone points out every little mistake in each layout (hey, there's not a timer there!!!). On the other hand, I really wonder how some of those R160 announcements get recorded, especially for the routes they don't normally run on, and then I decided I'm better off just NOT asking...... I also worry that many of the railfans who play these games think that it's a substitute for schoolcar and get the impression that they can operate REAL trains just because they can do it in the game. There's no brake pipe rupture feature in BVE though....that's what got Darius McCollum caught the first time! 

 

Anyway, I hope development on those projects continues. I agree with pretty much everything else you stated though.

Well considering that everybody chastised and hated on MrRailfanBVE (My BVE development partner) to the point of him throwing up his arms and possibly leaving the hobby for posting the video of that train surfer..... I'm not sure when development on BVE will resume.

 

He deserves a MASSIVE apology for the hell everybody here put him through. He's been dealing with enough in his personal life outside of the hobby already.

 

The situation could have been much better handled through a private message asking him to make the video private. He didn't know of the possible implications of that video. The whole incident was handled VERY poorly by those involved.

 

It's horrible that he got so much crap from everybody for filming the train WITHOUT knowledge of the train surfer on the end of the train (I was with him, neither of us knew), and then when everyone found out that he wasn't involved, NOBODY offered even a simple "sorry". This is just as shameful an action as those of the people who were acting poorly on the R32 . 

 

 

 

On a side note, none of the rare R160 announcements used in the BVE routes were recorded through illegal means. They are either spliced together from preexisting sound clips, recordings from G/Os, or sent in by others (C/Rs who record them) for use with permission. We pride ourselves on producing BVE content without breaking the law.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Dj Hammers

[Fresh Pond]

Hey hey now, some of the stuff being done in BVE is pretty fun. I've brought my laptop to work and we play BVE between trips in the crew room - challenging each other to see who can get the top speed through a tunnel without hitting a red signal. Of course, everyone points out every little mistake in each layout (hey, there's not a timer there!!!). On the other hand, I really wonder how some of those R160 announcements get recorded, especially for the routes they don't normally run on, and then I decided I'm better off just NOT asking...... I also worry that many of the railfans who play these games think that it's a substitute for schoolcar and get the impression that they can operate REAL trains just because they can do it in the game. There's no brake pipe rupture feature in BVE though....that's what got Darius McCollum caught the first time!

 

Anyway, I hope development on those projects continues. I agree with pretty much everything else you stated though.

 

And I specifically asked that everyone ACT RESPECTFUL if you were gonna come out. If you can't handle something out of the ordinary, then you don't deserve to be riding. That's why from this point forward I WILL keep my mouth shut out about anything new or interesting coming up or seen out in the field. After that fiasco with the to Flatbush my rookie year (dear god, how many of you skipped school just so you could ride an R62 down Nostrand Ave?), I knew this was gonna happen. And I'll have no part in it ever happening again.

 

BTW - I've seen the photos and some of the posters here I recognize. So don't give me a bullshit story that YOU were behaving and it was just everyone else acting up.

I got me an R142A that can go from Flatbush to Nevins in about 15 seconds lol...but thats neither here nor there...

 

...anyways, yeah that whole R32 fiasco brought out the true colors of a lot of people. Then you had the few acting high and mighty down talking the event when they were there themselves causing the problems themselves.

 

Facebook tells a lot about people...hell, someone basically ratted himself out when he kept posting multiple pictures of the R32 with multiple destinations

[Art Vandelay]

Generally the people who make the biggest stink are the worst perpetrators. Such is true everywhere, in this hobby and out. 

Edited April 14, 2014 by Art Vandelay

[SubwayGuy]

The events that have occurred yesterday were one of the lowest I’ve seen in the community. And while I agree with any of the things that’s been said on this thread the last few hours, I would like to add one more thing:

 

It’s true. Lots of us take this hobby for granted. Lots of us would rather chase than actually ride the trains. Lots of us would do anything at all costs to take that one photo. Lots of us will complain how one type of railcar should be saved or how we don’t like this other type of railcar, or how we like one particular kind of subway car and make sure no one else forgets it. We rather not get to know the old timers who have had many years of experience with the equipment and instead, blabber on about why we like *insert car model here* so much. Many of us have no idea what goes into preservation or what makes a train run….we might not know all the nuts and bolts that make that subway car – a subway car. But we can tell you, for example, how many R188s ran on the today. A number of us even have had the chance to ride the front car of a train through just about any part of the system looking at the rails though the window as the train moves from station to station. But no, we have to get that shot or that video of that one tunnel we’ve seen many times…..because yes, we’re riding on an R1-9 and that’s just a completely different experience as an R40, or an R44, or an R160. Because most of us are only focused on who’s the better railfan or the better busfan.

 

And this is all unfortunate. And really sad.

 

It’s one reason why I ended up leaving the community years ago. The community became one focused on unnecessary drama, rather than the interests that attracted most of us here in the first place.

 

But then last summer, something happened that brought me back.

 

Much of the time I was gone, from time to time, I used to lurk onto various forums. One thing that caught my attention was this guy right here:  https://www.facebook.com/r36preservation

 

This guy is doing something that many people have made fun of in the past for. He saw that some subway cars were being retired. He saw the historical value of those subway cars. He was inspired to do something about it. He focused his attention on a pair of subway cars that sat in storage for a number of years. I even remember he received flack for years ago for trying to do something about it.Then last year, we lost those subway cars to the scrapper. That caused him to really work hard on trying to get to where he is today – raising funds, organizing events and uniting various communities. All while attempting a saving history: two subway cars that are just about almost complete in restoration. I feel that, if it weren’t for this guy, perhaps certain things would’ve happened. I know all that he’s done has been a really interesting experience and he’s learned a lot along the way. But at least he’s doing something. Something that we could be doing. I gave him $20 towards his efforts. And I regret nothing. I thank him for what he's done and continues to do.

 

It’s because of that one guy….and because I saw how we’ve lost a number of subway cars last year to the scrapper…that made me want to go out and take photos of what we have now saved. I guess this is why  I’ve taken as much time to try to document what we have right now. It might seem half-assed. I will admit to that. And I know that this is not enough.

 

But thing is, I want to do more. And we should do more. I want to do more than just snap photos and gather data. I want to not only learn the equipment, but “feel” it. I want to know what goes behind keeping the equipment we have running. I want to help restore. I want to paint. I want to clean. A few times a week I pass by 207^th Street Yard to and from work, and I see these R12 and R14 cars sitting there. Lots of times I think to myself “Shoot, if they went out to ask us to volunteer to help ‘em clean, fix up, help assemble, and even paint these metal boxes of railcars, where do I f*ckin’ sign up?”

 

But how? Where do we start? Lots of us, myself included, can only go as far as, say, donate money whenever we visit the Transit Museum. I make it a point to donate some money – whether $20 or $5, or even some spare change – whenever I visit. Because even spare change can go a long way – maybe towards that one cracked window that’s covered with scotch take on the one R15 subway car, for example.

 

Here’s where I make a plea to the museums out there that have personnel and volunteers who work hard and pour in their blood, sweat, and tears, and their souls, to keep the equipment we’ve grown up with working. It’s because of them we can be nostalgic and relive the memories we had when riding that subway car or on that bus. Specifically, I make this plea to the New York Transit Museum and NYCT.

 

Other museums, like the Illinois Railway Museum, regularly ask for volunteers. They make it an effort to look for volunteers to help fix, clean, restore their equipment, as well as help ‘em move. They do many things to keep the public interested and wanting to see more – from music festivals to air shows….they make an effort to bring people in.  And they make it worthwhile. That’s how they get their donations and the help they need.

 

Why can’t we really do that here? Not that NYCT doesn’t make an effort in bringing people in to ride the trains and visit their collections. They make an effort to bring people for special events to the museum occasionally. But is it enough? Can they do more than just put up a few lines on their website? Or on a small ad on the train, or by a few blurbs on social media? Why not attract more people to the museum with bigger ads? Or with other mediums (i.e.: newspapers)? Don’t just aim towards the railfan or the busfan or to the kids who do enjoy the collections….aim to bring all kinds of people to visit the collections. Find ways to make the casual rider or the Average Joe care about the museum. Advertise on the news…hell, get the mayor in on it. I remember those MOD trips that went literally everywhere. Why not have more fantrips like that, rather than just one part of the line? I heard that in the past, there used to be auctions. Why can’t we have those again?

 

And speaking of transit fans, why have they not reached out to this very community? These sites?  We have more than just transit fans: we come from all walks and boast various different kinds of talent in various crafts. Wood-making. Painting. Assembly. Electricity. Mechanics. Even as something simple as cleaning. Documenting. Filing. Advertising. You name it, it can be found here.  I know of a handful of people who, if there were a way to help out in restoration, even one part of a subway car, or one bus, they would be more than willing to do it, with little to even no pay. Bring us in. Entice us in. Attract us to the equipment. Not only give us reasons on why we should ride ‘em instead of chasing ‘em, but show us why it is important to do so. Why not open your doors, give us some paint brushes, some old rags, a broom and a mop, and we can give out hearts, blood, sweat, and tears to keeping the equipment we enjoy riding on.

 

I know that the suggestions I made above all involve money. Everything involves money. And we as transit fans have to also do our part. If we want to see Redbirds restored…if we want to keep seeing buses running every holiday season, we have to do more than just take a photo. We have to make it a point to put in some spare change in that clear box near the exit at the museum. Ask questions and listen, rather than speak and “know it all”. Let’s start making gatherings, collect funds towards attempting to fix up something that needs attention (and nowadays, it’s a lot of it). Let’s participate more in these events.

 

The point is that, we need to collaborate with one another in a positive and effective way. Let’s work together. Let’s interact with one another. Let’s get to know each other. Let’s actually do things towards the hobby we enjoy. Museums, open your doors. Both your front doors and your back doors. Ask for the help, let us help. Some of us want to make a difference. Try to bring about a bigger audience. Attract us to your grounds. Prove to us why we should care. Fellow transit fans, let us not only take a photo or document what we see, but also let us show that we do care. Let’s act – we don’t only like the *insert favorite subway car*, but we will do all we can to make sure nothing happens to it in the course of time, so that our kids, and their kids, and so on and so forth, can enjoy what we enjoy. Ask ourselves why we like what we enjoy and find ways to express that through actions.

 

These opinions are solely of my own, whether one agrees or otherwise. They are not to offend or make one person or group look better than another. They do not reflect a larger group, these opinions are just my $2.50. Thanks for reading.

Excellent post M. Friday 1986.

 

In response to his points, and to everyone generally:

 

Volunteers for the Transit Museum eventually stopped due to the same boorish behavior that we see immortalized on Youtube...railfans who volunteered could simply not be trusted not to steal things and take them home. That put the end to that.

 

The Transit Museum does gear the tours to the general public, not just railfans, which is why the fantrips have generally featured an attaction laden destination as part of the trip - so that families and casual riders can do something fun at the end of the line, or get a break from simply riding the train all day. While the old MOD trips were definitely catered for the railfan, those trips are more rare because the majority of the general public does not have the stamina to do 10+ hours on a train, particularly if travelling with small children. Everything else you've talked about they already do - the holiday trains get on the news, there is plenty of promotion. That aspect of what NYCT and the Transit Museum are doing works perfectly. As for their programming they are constantly doing new things - have you looked at their brochures? They have a Valentine's Day event in the museum for young single people living in the city. There are new things like trivia nights, and behind the scenes tours, or discussions of modern transit issues (some of which are free), and even exploration of the archives and other museums' or libraries' collections focused on specific topics. The programming is not the problem - the information is out there, and as a matter of fact, the Transit Museum has been seeing record visitorship, and is running more programs now than ever before. Other museums have been broadening their audience and programming, and the more successful ones are doing this better than the rest.

 

Even NYCT has greenlighted trips quite frequently - in addition to NYTM trips, you have trains running for playoff MLB games, opening day at Yankee Stadium, and the holiday train has become an annual rite. ALL of those trips are targeted to the general public, getting people interested in the old equipment and the subway of yesteryear, and cross promoting the Transit Museum while generating good PR for the MTA in an age, where, let's face it, there isn't much. Most cities don't even run trips like that officially - they are chartered at great expense by private groups generally, but here in NYC we have them free of charge, several times a year, in addition to the Transit Museum trips which do cost money.

 

There is, by necessity, a bit of an artificial wall between the general public and getting really involved in the hobby, and no generation until this one has really had trouble getting its good members past it. The wall exists to prevent those who are abusive or untrustworthy from gaining access. But until this most recent generation, I have not seen the bad overtake the good - they existed as separate entities, but now you see otherwise good kids who are new to the hobby getting sucked in and influenced by the dumbest, most obnoxious, most useless in the hobby until they too are part of the problem, and this is why I shake my head at the shenanigans that end up on the internet. A good number simply lose interest and walk away when they do finally "grow up", and this speaks to failure as a community.

 

Everything M. Friday just posted is all the information you need to know to begin getting involved - the information is all right there. The problem is few will act on it because it is unfamiliar, or uncertain, and we exist in a generation where everyone wants their hand held. There are pieces of NY equipment at several museums across the country, not just the NY Transit Museum, and each has their own policies, not all of which is "no volunteers".

 

Additionally, the CHILDREN that are running out and about today don't really have any skills or knowledge. Kids today grow up never having swung a hammer or turned a screwdriver, and the concept of actual work is foreign. Restoration is not for everyone, however, and plenty have done more without picking up a tool. Restoration is painstaking work, time consuming, and often not rewarding, until someday many years down the road when a car runs. How would you feel donating 4 hours of time just to remove a bunch of badly rusted screws, just so you can remove a single corroded piece of steel on a car with hundreds of them, that will need to be replaced?

 

The only reason museums like IRM, Seashore, Branford, Bay Area (WRM), and Kingston even exist is because an earlier generation had the foresight to acquire property and equipment at deep discount, and drummed up the interest enough to maintain the costs of operating such through membership fees and some public programming, while keeping enough talented people around who could do the work to keep them growing. However as time has gone on, more of these places have had to turn to pay people to do tasks that could once be done by volunteers. Skills are dying. People no longer possess the knowledge to do what they need to do. They no longer possess the wherewithall and the charisma to spearhead serious efforts. As much as the R36 guy did his research on the car itself, it's ultimately a well intentioned but feeble attempt. It demonstrates some of the disconnect with railfans and reality - there is more to a campaign to save a car than simply asking someone else (the TA) to do it. As much as putting money in a donation box to the Transit Museum is a good thing, are you taking ownership of the process? Are you donating money towards specific projects that are actually going on (hopefully everyone is aware that nonprofits have to use restricted donations for their intended purposes), whether it's at NYTM or elsewhere?

 

You want to save a car? You need a place to put it, preferably where it can be run, you need transportation to get it there, you need a business plan to get your organization up and running (and ultimately solvent), you need insurance, and you need the tools and manpower to maintain your property and equipment.

 

Over the years, we have witnessed the complete dissolution of several museums, including Bob Diamond's little effort at a waterfront trolley line in Brooklyn. No organization is immune to it simply by the nobility of its intentions.

 

The problem with the current generation is that they are unwilling to step away from the computer and do something. While "Doing something" is not posting on Facebook, stating intentions, or speaking with other railfans about contemporary issues, etc., "Doing something" can be internet based...as long as it is adding value to the community. While the internet was relatively new, Dave Pirmann created nycsubway.org. Has anyone thought about what will happen to the amazing body of knowledge contained within that site when he is no longer the individual paying the bill for the server, or when the site outlives him someday, a simple reality of life and death itself? Hopefully, someday there is a contingency plan, and thankfully for that example, I can say that it is on the minds of some who possess the involvement to get it done. But the same issue that faces nycsubway.org someday also goes for any user generated content that has been placed on the internet. Life is temporary, and so is the internet. This has always been the enduring value of the printed word, or BOOKS, to a generation that would rather read about it on a Kindle or Wikipedia.

 

There are existing outlets to get involved - from volunteering at some of these other places discussed, or even up to and including working for the Transit Authority itself in various capacities - which is often what separates the men from the boys, when holding down a livelihood becomes at stake. It's not for everyone, that's for sure, and only those that are able to actually perform the job and put their "buffing" to the side will last. But what's gained for those that do take those steps is KNOWLEDGE and SKILLS.

 

Got your own ideas? Want to do better? Stop TALKING about it on the internet, and go to one of these places, and learn some skills. Get to a position where you can affect positive change. Along the way you'll either get a reality check and learn to work within the system that already exists, or if your idea still seems reasonable, you'll be equipped with the skills and knowledge to make it happen, the self awareness to know the obstacles you'll encounter, and the respect of some of your peers that you just might have a chance to accomplish something.

 

There's not too many more ways to say it. The world is huge, life is short, and possibilities for wealth and social standing may be limited, but the possibilities for what you do with your life are limitless, even as short a time as we have. The only thing you have to do is pursue it, because no one will for you, no one's going to hold your hand, or show you the way. That goes for anything in life, not just museum cars, being a responsible railfan, or anything else transit related. You have people who develop an interest in something from a young age, and they find a way to make a living at it - whether it's trains, boats, fishing, throwing out garbage, building things, cooking, or helping sick people get better.

 

You see some of these middle aged and older railfans that weren't the good ones and you usually see the same thing - someone smelly, poorly groomed, walking around in ill fitting clothing blabbering on about something, often unemployed and living on limited income or with parents - what would generally be considered a failure as an adult. It's just a pitfall of the hobby like being a loudmouth drunk who gets into bar fights is a stereotypical pitfall of someone whose hobby is sports. Young people have time to avoid this, and be productive. Yet when they get drawn it as people new to the hobby by those who someday will fit this description, and begin to act that way themselves, and lose interest in the pursuit of knowledge and skills in the hobby in favor of this ridiculous "I'm first" impulse, you have a real problem.

 

Generations before this one have already accomplished great things when it has come to rail preservation, but if the next generation doesn't step up when it's time for whatever reason, it's going to be a sad sad song on the world's smallest violin. This will be my last post on the topic because there's nothing more to be said - I respect that you see my point but many here won't (particularly those who are part of the problem, regardless of whatever internet persona they have). The truth is that until the hard lessons of the past are repeated for this next generation, I don't think they ever will, and even then only some will.

Edited April 14, 2014 by SubwayGuy

[realizm]

I appreciate the points made and it is alarming. Some of the railfans act in such an unruly manner that it can be appalling.

 

Subway Guy is right and I agree with him 100%. They are bringing on a bad rep for the hobby and unfortunately the kids are exposed to this via the internet. Its like a vicious cycle. Also agree with M. Friday. There is more to it than just chasing trains and fighting over RFWs. Volunteer work. Or why not attend public hearings and let your voices be heard? Personally for me its tough to find the time to do that, taking IT contracts here and there, college and the nursing internship. But I would love to get into the public hearings and give my input in constructive dialogue for the MTA committees to hear. If only I found the time to do so I will do it. If any have suggestions on how to contribute definitely let me know. Will will keep my eye out and try to attend some of these functions.

 

Perhaps the calendars on this site can be updated regularly to reflect board meetings and events for all interested in volunteering in other ways. That may be a good idea as a start. For the youngsters hey go for it. Participate in board meetings. Learn your history on transit, and stay in tune with current events. Don't stop with amatuer photography, that is one of the vital aspects of this hobby but the fellas are right, We could participate even further by being that collective voice.

 

I hear you all on what is going on with some who many cannot even groom themselves, show delinquent behavior on and off the internet (i.e. Facebook), who steal and vandalize property, who refuse to make a better life for themselves even refusing to work as it sheds a bad light on many of us here for example who are responsible and mature in our personal lives contrary to popular belief by those who portray the negative in the mainstream media. They are representing those in the railfanning community. They have to realize that they need to represent thise involved in this hobby as people who are not wierdos but productive, law abiding citizens from many walks of life, not a bunch of deadbeats.

 

It wasn't like this before. Its sad that the transit museum administration stopped the volunteer program for the reasons mentioned on this page of this discussion. Because of the delinquent behavior shown by some. Sad indeed. I've caught on to that.

 

 

Generally the people who make the biggest stink are the worst perpetrators. Such is true everywhere, in this hobby and out.

That may be true to an extent, but I dont believe that those here on this site represent the people who are the ones creating the problems discussed, as I met many of them. So I guess you mean some who post on other forms of social media for example.

 

Many are actively productive persons who are regularly involved in board meetings, and many are photographers out there to capture pieces of history. A good example is the coverage on the R142A/R62A swap for the history books. Or other as amatuer historians, writing pieces discussing the historical aspect of this transit system. Many others are advocates all at the board meetings giving their input in behalf of the persons in their neighborhoods who rely on transit and are to be respected. And they are aspiring high school college students and working professionals. I can think of many even here who do just so.

 

OK I think I will leave put this to rest now. And for the record, I wasn't there for the R32 nonsense. I was working that day a 12 hour shift but thats another story. But the input is well appreciated many thanks.

Edited April 15, 2014 by SevenEleven

[NewFlyer 230]

The points made above are so true.

I feel that today things are done out of competition. Kids and young people these day are always out to try to prove that they are better and always have this hatred for people who are appreciated or in their eyes different. I faced many of that hatred before just because I didn't dress in a particular or act a certain way. If they saw you with inexpensive clothes they always had something to say because they believed that you had to wear the expensive clothes and all that to fit in. The meaning of appreciation has really changed. Appreciation now is basically showing off and trying to convince everyone that you are better than the next man. Don't want to work for anything because they have that mindset that everything in life is easy and are used to things just given to them. If you give them any problems they are always out to cause pain to you. I try to appreciate all the things I have and all the things around me. I know for a fact the person who created this forum appreciated this hobby and wanted to create a place where other transit enthusiast could come talk and share pics and so on. The least we should do is respect that because he spent a lot of time and hardwork creating this forum because he wanted there to be a place with people with a similar interest can interact with one another. He didn't have to do it because he cared so we should not abuse it. The same applies for anything such as a museam or park it's ashamed people don't think about how things came to be.

[Around the Horn]

That may be true to an extent, but I dont believe that those here on this site represent the people who are the ones creating the problems discussed, as I met many of them.

 

Many are actively productive persons who are regularly involved in board meetings, and many are photographers out there to capture pieces of history.  And they are aspiring high school college students and working professionals. I can think of many even here who do just so.

I was going to say that but you beat me to it...

 

For example my "dream" if you will is to work for Service Planning and do my part to assist in improving transit for everyone.But can I do it at 15?

No.

 

But I still want to do my part and improve someone's commute in some way.Be it a new bus stop,new bus route,new train car.I just want to help in some way.I dont want to fight over a RFW.I mean come on.I dont mind photography.Hey I do it but at the end of the day railfanning is more than just pictures and the pictures are more than just about the train...

 

I applaud realizm,Daniel,MattTrain,IStop,GojiMet,tvega and all the others who's forum names I dont remember right now who take pictures of more than just the train.

 

I applaud all the members here who work for and .You keep the Northeast moving.

 

Keep on doing the right thing the right way.You are role models to the rest of us here.

 

Once again just my $2.50

[R40SlantFan]

Wow I'm glad I skipped out on this. I heard that a couple crazy railfans had arrest warrants issued because of saturday's events. This is ridiculous. 

[realizm]

Wow I'm glad I skipped out on this. I heard that a couple crazy railfans had arrest warrants issued because of saturday's events. This is ridiculous. 

 

I mean seriously wtf are these morons trying to do? Give the MTA a reason to reinstate a ban on photography? F**king fools! We don't need a repeat of the battle we fought in 2006 to stop a photography ban! Because of this out of no fault of our own...

Edited April 14, 2014 by realizm

[BreeddekalbL]

Wow I'm glad I skipped out on this. I heard that a couple crazy railfans had arrest warrants issued because of saturday's events. This is ridiculous. 

 

yep heard that on another group, there are arrest and search warrants

[Orion VII 4 Life]

Wow I'm glad I skipped out on this. I heard that a couple crazy railfans had arrest warrants issued because of saturday's events. This is ridiculous. 

I'm starting to feel that this is getting way too crazy. And I'm also well prepared for the sh*t I'm gonna get from some people for saying this, don't care.

 

I've heard from some people (I'm not on FB and I was barely on the train that day not even up front, I barely know anything about what happened to begin with) that the people who have the warrants out were basically snitched on by the other railfans. They include the guy in the back car, the trainsurfer, and the guy who broke the rollsign. The NYPD did launch some investigations yes because of reports at the time by the train crews, but a lot of it was because railfans who knew these foamers snitched on them. The "honest concerned goody 2 shoes" folks gave out the identities of these people to the police (if not directly, then by publicly shaming them on several public websites as I'm about to say) and the world on FB and I believe there have been some posts on Subchat too exposing them. Some people (including the guys who posted the video of the trainsurfer not knowing the implications of doing so) were harassed to the point of cyber bullying, by "honest caring railfans". That's outright NARCING and taking it too far. Yes, they're f*cking with TA property, no I don't condone it and neither should you, but now you have railfans narcing on other railfans/foamers and to me, that's like these "concerned citizens" who don't mind their own business and narc on people they see doing sh*t like smoking pot, throwing parties, vandalizing property. Again, you have every right and in a lot of cases good reason (including what happened on the 32s) to be angry with these people, but mind your own damn business and let the officials do their investigating. You being a concerned citizen/narc gets you nowhere, and narcing like that usually ends up with the narcs getting f*cked up by the people they narced on and their crew. Of course a lot of these railfans/foamers are fake and too pussy to go out and fight like that, but remember these foamers are already doing illegal sh*t for popularity, and I'm sure some of them at least wouldn't be afraid to go f*ck up the narcs. This stuff is gonna lead to more drama down the road and it ain't gonna be pretty.

 

I just wanna say again, I'm not saying anything that went down on those 32s was right. I'm not defending the idiot foamers who did stupid sh*t and give good railfans a bad name. But it isn't my place or anyone else's unless you work for the NYPD or NYCT to (directly or indirectly) narc on others to the police, and it's especially not their place to harass people like that. Let the officials do their job and move on with yourselves. If you have a problem with something other people did take it up with them in person., whether that's a private chat or talking IRL. Publicly shaming them and narcing on them makes you look like the weaker person. If they're being investigated by the law then let the law and the law only do the investigating.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Orion VII 4 Life

[DJ MC]

I'm starting to feel that this is getting way too crazy. And I'm also well prepared for the sh*t I'm gonna get from some people for saying this, don't care.

 

I've heard from some people (I'm not on FB and I was barely on the train that day not even up front, I barely know anything about what happened to begin with) that the people who have the warrants out were basically snitched on by the other railfans. They include the guy in the back car, the trainsurfer, and the guy who broke the rollsign. The NYPD did launch some investigations yes because of reports at the time by the train crews, but a lot of it was because railfans who knew these foamers snitched on them. The "honest concerned goody 2 shoes" folks gave out the identities of these people to the police (if not directly, then by publicly shaming them on several public websites as I'm about to say) and the world on FB and I believe there have been some posts on Subchat too exposing them. Some people (including the guys who posted the video of the trainsurfer not knowing the implications of doing so) were harassed to the point of cyber bullying, by "honest caring railfans". That's outright NARCING and taking it too far. Yes, they're f*cking with TA property, no I don't condone it and neither should you, but now you have railfans narcing on other railfans/foamers and to me, that's like these "concerned citizens" who don't mind their own business and narc on people they see doing sh*t like smoking pot, throwing parties, vandalizing property. Again, you have every right and in a lot of cases good reason (including what happened on the 32s) to be angry with these people, but mind your own damn business and let the officials do their investigating. You being a concerned citizen/narc gets you nowhere, and narcing like that usually ends up with the narcs getting f*cked up by the people they narced on and their crew. Of course a lot of these railfans/foamers are fake and too pussy to go out and fight like that, but remember these foamers are already doing illegal sh*t for popularity, and I'm sure some of them at least wouldn't be afraid to go f*ck up the narcs. This stuff is gonna lead to more drama down the road and it ain't gonna be pretty.

 

I just wanna say again, I'm not saying anything that went down on those 32s was right. I'm not defending the idiot foamers who did stupid sh*t and give good railfans a bad name. But it isn't my place or anyone else's unless you work for the NYPD or NYCT to (directly or indirectly) narc on others to the police, and it's especially not their place to harass people like that. Let the officials do their job and move on with yourselves. If you have a problem with something other people did take it up with them in person., whether that's a private chat or talking IRL. Publicly shaming them and narcing on them makes you look like the weaker person. If they're being investigated by the law then let the law and the law only do the investigating.

 

So you're pretty much defending the actions of what happened on Saturday by that logic. So it's okay if they make us look bad and it's okay if other transit systems across the country get the same idea that transit fans can't be trusted. That's what you're basically trying to tell me and everyone else on this site.

Edited April 15, 2014 by DJ MC

[FRACertifyMotormen]

Orion, as a retired TA employee and a railfan, I disagree with you on this.  If the railfan community doesn't police itself by reporting the law breakers, then the MTA will come down HARD on railfans.  Then, when a photo ban is in place, you'll all be crying and complaining about it.  

[Orion VII 4 Life]

So you're pretty much defending the actions of what happened on Saturday by that logic. So it's okay if they make us look bad and it's okay if other transit systems across the country get the same idea that fans can't be trusted. That's what you're basically trying to tell me.

Again, absolutely not. These people are being HARASSED and that's insane.

 

If the NYPD is legit investigating these dumba*s foamers and they're getting what they deserve from them and them alone, great. The NYPD and MTA did their job and took care of the people who committed a crime against their property. The railfans should absolutely get in touch with these foamers privately and if they want to go as far as to meet up somewhere and confront them, that's all good. But posting sh*t about them on public sites and narcing on them is going too far.

Orion, as a retired TA employee and a railfan, I disagree with you on this.  If the railfan community doesn't police itself by reporting the law breakers, then the MTA will come down HARD on railfans.  Then, when a photo ban is in place, you'll all be crying and complaining about it.  

See above for how the good honest railfans can take care of these foamers without shaming them publicly or narcing.

[DJ MC]

Again, absolutely not. These people are being HARASSED and that's insane.

 

If the NYPD is legit investigating these dumba*s foamers and they're getting what they deserve from them and them alone, great. The NYPD and MTA did their job and took care of the people who committed a crime against their property. The railfans should absolutely get in touch with these foamers privately and if they want to go as far as to meet up somewhere and confront them, that's all good. But posting sh*t about them on public sites and narcing on them is going too far.

 

They deserve every shit they're getting for screwing up that run on Saturday in the first place. You think it's fair to kick, push, and shove others on the train? Keep in mind, non- transit fans were victimized too in that mayhem and people could of gotten hurt. The hell outta here with that bullshit.

Edited April 15, 2014 by DJ MC

[Turbo19]

They deserve every shit they're getting for screwing up that run on Saturday in the first place. You think it's fair to kick, push, and shove others on the train? Keep in mind, non- transit fans were victimized too. The hell outta here with that bullshit.

Dude, honestly, 95% of the fans screwed it up before it started.

 

Come at me.

 

No, that's not what she said.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Turbo19