Fleet Swap Discussion Thread

[S78 via Hylan]

Thank goodness I wasn't involved with what happened on that R32. I had better things to do such as work and earn my paycheck. Nonetheless, very disappointed in those who decided to act like animals and disrupt crews and even bother passengers.

[Fresh Pond]

I was sick with the flu and I look on Facebook and saw all the madness...people scaring passengers off the train, holding the doors at every stop for pictures, some smelling like hot ass on a summer day on Mercury, the works.

[Around the Horn]

SMH this is why this generation of "railfans" is so mindf*cked.

 

They don't give anything to the hobby, they don't spend any effort or resources to keep these things here for future generations, they just ASSUME and DEMAND that someone else will do it for them.

 

They "chase" paid trips because of "photo opportunities" yet habitually ride every free trip, they interfere with and obstruct transit operations to get an "exclusive" photo like idiotic paparazzi chasing celebrities, just so they can brag about how they were "first" to post it as if anyone on the internet will actually remember or actually respect them more for it.

 

Yet when it comes to actually learning anything about the equipment or history beyond just propulsion sounds and what cars ran where, they run away scared.

 

When it comes to a serious preservation effort, they write letters demanding action but do NOTHING of their own to back that up. When it comes to supporting various organizations that have, largely through their own efforts, to this point done their part to keep this history alive, they do nothing.

 

This is the future, this is the generation, and it's SCARY.

 

Without dedicated people working in and outside of various transit agencies, this history will be lost forever if no one is there to fight for it. And fighting for it is not fighting to be at the front window to take a picture, or be the first to break an internet "exclusive", or writing letters demanding change. It's sometimes being the change you want to see, and I just see a whole bunch of railfans, that, unlike previous generations, who were relative pioneers in the field, are simply unwiling and unable to step back from behind the camera to do much of anything else like pick up a tool, or raise funds, and if that is really the case, it spells disaster for efforts to keep this history alive and working, and all that will be left in the end will be the same boring 3/4 quarter profile picture of the end of a subway car you all fight so unoriginally to obtain.

 

Today it may be an R32 on the R, but tomorrow it will be something else and while you're all fighting and arguing over nonsense, the history we have before our very eyes will disappear or fall into disrepair. And then we'll be just like any other city that ignored its historic equipment.

 

And based on previous generations, this obnoxious behavior tends to go away once someone steps beyond the looking glass and actually gets involved in the hobby instead of being another loudmouth blogging idiot with too many opinions, no skills, and not enough relevant experience.

 

Try it, you might like it.

Im just going to say this:I am part of this new generation and while there maybe crazy idiots there a more fans who are responsible,smart,innovative minds that are determined to improve transit in their communities(I am one of them).

 

We are more quieter that the minority of idiots because their "noise" attracts attention from the mainstream.The efforts of us future innovators are hidden for the most part from the mainstream where as the loudmouths as you call them are unfortunately in view of the average rider.

 

As a whole transit is stuck in traditional viewpoints and it is up to the new generation to take up the challenge of breaking away from these traditional views and in innovative ways improve transit for the sake of the millions of people who use it NOT break rules constantly while railfanning and add a negative stigma to the innovators.

 

Note in no way shape or form that I am saying "don't railfan" I am saying do it responsibly.

 

Just my $2.50.Carry on.

[ttcsubwayfan]

I was sick with the flu and I look on Facebook and saw all the madness...people scaring passengers off the train, holding the doors at every stop for pictures, some smelling like hot ass on a summer day on Mercury, the works.

 

*buries face in hands and weeps*

[DJ MC]

I'm telling everyone right now and I've already mentioned this here.

 

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/44195-rants-and-pet-peeves/page-8?do=findComment&comment=761705

 

and on the chat.

 

There are a number of fans (and they know who they are), who don't give a ratass about this hobby. They don't care about the people who work their ass off to transport passengers throughout this system or the MTA itself.

 

They're simply using this hobby as a popularity contest and nothing more. They will do whatever it takes to get that one shot or video, even if it kills them or they have to fight for it. I'm still speechless and disgusted over what I heard yesterday. 

Edited April 13, 2014 by DJ MC

[R32 3838]

I'm telling everyone right now and I've already mentioned this here.

 

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/44195-rants-and-pet-peeves/page-8?do=findComment&comment=761705

 

and on the chat.

 

There are a number of fans (and they know who they are), who don't give a ratass about this hobby. They don't care about the people who work their ass off to transport passengers throughout this system or the MTA itself.

 

They're simply using this hobby as a popularity contest and nothing more. They will do whatever it takes to get that one shot or video, even if it kills them or they have to fight for it. I'm still speechless and disgusted over what I heard yesterday.

I agree with that, I don't see it that way, most of my videos aren't on YouTube, I get my photos and that's it, everyone wants to get the better video or photo and to me that's pathetic

[LTA1992]

I'm telling everyone right now and I've already mentioned this here.

 

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/44195-rants-and-pet-peeves/page-8?do=findComment&comment=761705

 

and on the chat.

 

There are a number of fans (and they know who they are), who don't give a ratass about this hobby. They don't care about the people who work their ass off to transport passengers throughout this system or the MTA itself.

 

They're simply using this hobby as a popularity contest and nothing more. They will do whatever it takes to get that one shot or video, even if it kills them or they have to fight for it. I'm still speechless and disgusted over what I heard yesterday. 

I'm glad Im not the only one that thinks that way. It does get tiring repeating that over and over. Starting to debate whether or not the term "fan" is even proper for certain people anymore.

 

There was one time I took a pic of Queens Plaza, and somebody said "That picture would have been better if the garbage can wasn't in it". I'm like, IT WAS THERE FOR A PURPOSE. I like to show the subway how it actually is, to show, "Hey, these things exist and not everyone throws their trash on the ground".

Edited April 13, 2014 by LTA1992

[SubwayGuy]

Im just going to say this:I am part of this new generation and while there maybe crazy idiots there a more fans who are responsible,smart,innovative minds that are determined to improve transit in their communities(I am one of them).

 

We are more quieter that the minority of idiots because their "noise" attracts attention from the mainstream.The efforts of us future innovators are hidden for the most part from the mainstream where as the loudmouths as you call them are unfortunately in view of the average rider.

 

As a whole transit is stuck in traditional viewpoints and it is up to the new generation to take up the challenge of breaking away from these traditional views and in innovative ways improve transit for the sake of the millions of people who use it NOT break rules constantly while railfanning and add a negative stigma to the innovators.

 

Note in no way shape or form that I am saying "don't railfan" I am saying do it responsibly.

 

Just my $2.50.Carry on.

 

It goes beyond "railfanning responsibly". A little history will show you that the only reason there are R-9s and Lo-Vs to ride is generations of foresight, planning, and efforts from people interested in the hobby who DIDN'T just hold a camera. That's why someday there will be R-32s, R40 slants, etc. being saved. But every generation has to fight its own battles to save, restore, refurbish, and protect the old equipment, and I just don't see many people who are interested in doing anything other than holding a camera these days and it's scary to think of what it could mean in the future.

 

Social media and Facebook have just created an outlet for people to act like compete asses and put it all over the internet. The "cool kids" aren't the ones running to ride the subway just to snap a bunch of photos of something like that, but looking at the internet that's what you'll see, and it's easy to see people new to the hobby falling in with and being MISDIRECTED INTO these large crowds of blubbering idiots that participate in these sorts of activities, whether it's on fantrips, or just riding the subway generally, or trying to catch a particular train on a particular line.

 

I'm glad you railfan responsibly, but I'm looking at it from a completely different perspective than you: old equipment only gets preserved because PEOPLE put in the effort to do it. No amount of railfanning will save cars from the scrapper, and no amount of letter writing, if not backed up by relevant and timely ACTION will either. It requires maturity, something few people have.

 

Generations before this one, buffs have gotten jobs with various transit agencies in various titles (not just operating ones) and LEARNED A LOT, and used their knowledge, and promotions, to RESPONSIBLY safeguard and maintain museum cars - not just in NYC, but around the country in various museums, and around the WORLD.

 

WITHOUT extraordinary efforts like that, all will ultimately be lost. I just don't see that in the younger generation the last few years. Many of them aren't interested in actual knowledge, only "current events".

 

But I digress. There are many basic roles that railfans have filled within the transit community for ages, things you don't need to be an employee to document, to obtain information:

-For all of the people that make half assed efforts doing things like car data sheets, do you actually archive the old ones? Or do you just keep updating them constantly to reflect what's current? In 20 years when someone asks you what cars were in service on the F line in April 2014, will you be able to answer that question? Do you possess the knowledge to sit down in 20 years and write an article filled with historical facts and relevant personal observations detailing the time period for a railfan magazine, or will you be too busy chasing the first R211 to ever run in service on the G line?

-Are your photographs and videos archival quality? Do you keep and preserve newsletters and other documents that are relevant to the time period to help the future understand what it was like today? Are your photographs just about the equipment itself (not helpful) or photographing it within its environment? To what extent (particularly on outside lines) do you incorporate the surrounding buildings, and parts of the NYC landscape that are constantly changing into your landscape? THAT'S how you take a good photo, not just being the first one to find a car on particular line. Sometimes the mundane is most relevant because that's what people will want to remember. Does your interest go beyond the equipment? Do you photograph interesting things in STATIONS too, even when the train is not there?

-Behaving responsibly is an important part of that as well. It doesn't call attention to the hobby, to boorish behavior, or alienate or piss of transit workers who have to deal with it.

 

These are roles railfans have filled throughout history, and they are why we have photos of Lo-Vs and R-12s on the 3rd Avenue El, or R-16s sitting at 168th St. on the Jamaica elevated, or know, despite a complete lack of photographs, the service pattern, hours of operation, and equipment utilization of the Court Street Shuttle. While these roles are mostly on the fringe, and nothing to do with preserving equipment, they are still valuable. Railfans who have actually become knowledgeable have occasionally developed the interest and aptitude to help in the preservation effort, and consequently have increased their knowledge, and even life skills as a result.

 

If all the young generation wants is paparazzi railfans chasing current events, irresponsibly posting stupid things on the internet, making sound effects, building crap for video games and train simulators, and goofing off and acting like jackasses, that's all you'll have, and the future of the hobby will indeed be a bunch of people sitting around at an ERA or UTC meeting watching slides, making sound effects, and operating video game trains while lamenting the fact that every one of the cars photographed or depicted in game is gone forever.

[Around the Horn]

It goes beyond "railfanning responsibly". A little history will show you that the only reason there are R-9s and Lo-Vs to ride is generations of foresight, planning, and efforts from people interested in the hobby who DIDN'T just hold a camera. That's why someday there will be R-32s, R40 slants, etc. being saved. But every generation has to fight its own battles to save, restore, refurbish, and protect the old equipment, and I just don't see many people who are interested in doing anything other than holding a camera these days and it's scary to think of what it could mean in the future.

 

Social media and Facebook have just created an outlet for people to act like compete asses and put it all over the internet. The "cool kids" aren't the ones running to ride the subway just to snap a bunch of photos of something like that, but looking at the internet that's what you'll see, and it's easy to see people new to the hobby falling in with and being MISDIRECTED INTO these large crowds of blubbering idiots that participate in these sorts of activities, whether it's on fantrips, or just riding the subway generally, or trying to catch a particular train on a particular line.

 

I'm glad you railfan responsibly, but I'm looking at it from a completely different perspective than you: old equipment only gets preserved because PEOPLE put in the effort to do it. No amount of railfanning will save cars from the scrapper, and no amount of letter writing, if not backed up by relevant and timely ACTION will either. It requires maturity, something few people have.

 

Generations before this one, buffs have gotten jobs with various transit agencies in various titles (not just operating ones) and LEARNED A LOT, and used their knowledge, and promotions, to RESPONSIBLY safeguard and maintain museum cars - not just in NYC, but around the country in various museums, and around the WORLD.

 

WITHOUT extraordinary efforts like that, all will ultimately be lost. I just don't see that in the younger generation the last few years. Many of them aren't interested in actual knowledge, only "current events".

 

But I digress. There are many basic roles that railfans have filled within the transit community for ages, things you don't need to be an employee to document, to obtain information:

-For all of the people that make half assed efforts doing things like car data sheets, do you actually archive the old ones? Or do you just keep updating them constantly to reflect what's current? In 20 years when someone asks you what cars were in service on the F line in April 2014, will you be able to answer that question? Do you possess the knowledge to sit down in 20 years and write an article filled with historical facts and relevant personal observations detailing the time period for a railfan magazine, or will you be too busy chasing the first R211 to ever run in service on the G line?

-Are your photographs and videos archival quality? Do you keep and preserve newsletters and other documents that are relevant to the time period to help the future understand what it was like today? Are your photographs just about the equipment itself (not helpful) or photographing it within its environment? To what extent (particularly on outside lines) do you incorporate the surrounding buildings, and parts of the NYC landscape that are constantly changing into your landscape? THAT'S how you take a good photo, not just being the first one to find a car on particular line. Sometimes the mundane is most relevant because that's what people will want to remember. Does your interest go beyond the equipment? Do you photograph interesting things in STATIONS too, even when the train is not there?

-Behaving responsibly is an important part of that as well. It doesn't call attention to the hobby, to boorish behavior, or alienate or piss of transit workers who have to deal with it.

 

These are roles railfans have filled throughout history, and they are why we have photos of Lo-Vs and R-12s on the 3rd Avenue El, or R-16s sitting at 168th St. on the Jamaica elevated, or know, despite a complete lack of photographs, the service pattern, hours of operation, and equipment utilization of the Court Street Shuttle. While these roles are mostly on the fringe, and nothing to do with preserving equipment, they are still valuable. Railfans who have actually become knowledgeable have occasionally developed the interest and aptitude to help in the preservation effort, and consequently have increased their knowledge, and even life skills as a result.

 

If all the young generation wants is paparazzi railfans chasing current events, irresponsibly posting stupid things on the internet, making sound effects, building crap for video games and train simulators, and goofing off and acting like jackasses, that's all you'll have, and the future of the hobby will indeed be a bunch of people sitting around at an ERA or UTC meeting watching slides, making sound effects, and operating video game trains while lamenting the fact that every one of the cars photographed or depicted in game is gone forever.

I totally agree with you on these fronts.I am simply saying that there are such people in the current generation but the other side is seen more and certain people believe that the bad side is the only side to railfanning.

 

I personally believe railfanning is as you say about documenting history and thats what I try to do with my pics.

I try to experience not only the photos but riding the buses and trains too.

I think fanning is also about doing your best to improve the transit landscape (such as preserving equipment,improving routes,etc).This leads to a new generation of railfans who instead of being raised on arnine fantrips,are raised on R160 fantrips.Would you want your child to be raise on a R211 and ask you "Why didnt they start at R1?" or do you want them to know there was a R1?

 

People take to much for granted.Dont.Take photos not only of the trans but the urban landscape.Dont just railfan.Become a transit innovator.Improve transit in your community.Do what you can to preserve the bus you love now when its time comes.Shape history.The world will be the the better for it.Break the limtations.Railfanning is not just about take a worthless in historical context blurry shot of an exclusive.Ride it.Take in the experience.Tell your children.Then its an exclusive.

 

For all of time.Not just for one day.

 

Once again just my $2.50.

[lupojohn]

That's because every single person who read that confirmed proof dropped everything and ran into the subway ASAP!

That's not true. It was put out there and people chose to go or, as in my case, not to go. 

[NewFlyer 230]

Can someone tell me what happened on the R32 ? Was there a fight or something because a lot of the previous post doesn't seem like it was good day yesterday.

[P3F]

Documenting the history of the New York City Subway is not something that has been said and done. If we want people 50-60 years from now to know what the R46s and even the R32s were like, we have to put at least a little effort into it.

 

An example is that since Nassau and Atlantic will close in 2016, I expect tons of people from this forum to document the opening of the new station.

 

However, will there be anyone at the closings of the old stations? Certainly much less than at the new one, and this is really to be expected.

 

In October 2013 I went to Nassau and Atlantic and took some pictures and videos of the full station tour. However, the sun got in the way of some of these and I will have to redo the station tours.

 

In 50 years, will people care about what it's like to have an R32 or R42 rush into the station? Probably at least a little.

In my opinion, there needs to be an effort to preserve a full 10 car train of R32s and a full 10 car train of R42s. This isn't something outrageous that hasn't been done before; we have the TOMC, the R1/9s and the full Triplex set.

 

This particular transit era is one of the most unique; you have the newest NTTs operating alongside with the oldest cars from the 1960s. If nothing is done to preserve the memories of this era, it will be another lost cause, such as the Culver Shuttle and the other closed rail sights that nobody can see. Did anyone make a full tour of the Culver Shuttle? No. Let's not make that same mistake.

 

Just my $0.02 about the subject.

Edited April 13, 2014 by P3F

[Orion VII 4 Life]

Can someone tell me what happened on the R32 ? Was there a fight or something because a lot of the previous post doesn't seem like it was good day yesterday.

I heard...

-Foamer surfing on the back

-Foamers fighting for the RFW (as usual)

-Foamers that smell like sh*t (also as usual)

-Foamers kicking regular passengers off the train

and probably more that I didn't hear about.

[P3F]

Lol I was waiting for the R32 but gave up after 2 R46's and 3 R160's passed by. Plus the construction going on at 36th Street was unpleasant to wait near.

 

Looks like I didn't miss that much

[GojiMet86]

Can someone tell me what happened on the R32 ? Was there a fight or something because a lot of the previous post doesn't seem like it was good day yesterday.

 

Besides the usual loud rail buff chatter and discussion of how the R32s were better than the new "sh*tboxes", a buff decided to subway surf the R32 from the back. I was on that R32, in the front, and it seems nobody in the front knew about the subway surfer until a friend told us that someone had gotten a video of the surfer in the back.

 

 

I heard...

-Foamers kicking regular passengers off the train

 

What I did see was that sometimes, a passenger would ask us typical questions about the train (where is it going, is it running express), and about 7 or 8 buffs would answer back, loudly, the answer. Some insulted the passengers.

Edited April 13, 2014 by GojiMet86

[NewFlyer 230]

That's crazy they do all that just because of a train. R32's were on the for many years so I don't see what's the big fight about. I feel sorry for those people who were kicked off because if some dude with a camera told me to get off there would have been a problem.

[Orion V 9441]

I heard...

-Foamer surfing on the back

-Foamers fighting for the RFW (as usual)

-Foamers that smell like sh*t (also as usual)

-Foamers kicking regular passengers off the train

and probably more that I didn't hear about.

Sound like they were all ready for war! Either way, this is very immature, and they show a complete lack of respect for the subway in general. I could never do any of that because I personally have too much to lose.

[j express]

I also heard foamers changing rollsigns on the R32 R.

[Union Tpke]

I also heard foamers changing rollsigns on the R32 R.

Oh goody! to what is the question.

[ttcsubwayfan]

How the hell did they kick people off the train???

[Orion V 9441]

I also heard foamers changing rollsigns on the R32 R.

They managed to get their hands on an MTA key? I find that very disrespectful to do, as it is very misleading to passengers. The only time that I have ever used the destination sign of a transit vehicle was when there was an open house, and I received permission from the operator responsible for the vehicle.

[R32 3838]

The biggest issues were the rollsign changing and the surfer in the back, the railfan chatter is nothing, I only helped 2 passengers since they didn't know where they were going, but you had fans announcing the stops like going out the train telling people this an R train and etc.

 

I wasn't there when they held the train at 36th st for 10 minutes but boy they really screwed up the railroad bad

[GojiMet86]

The biggest issues were the rollsign changing and the surfer in the back, the railfan chatter is nothing, I only helped 2 passengers since they didn't know where they were going, but you had fans announcing the stops like going out the train telling people this an R train and etc.

 

I wasn't there when they held the train at 36th st for 10 minutes but boy they really screwed up the railroad bad

 

I thought the C/O said he had to check something in the back vent (I heard vent, but might have been end).

[ttcsubwayfan]

I totally agree with you on these fronts.I am simply saying that there are such people in the current generation but the other side is seen more and certain people believe that the bad side is the only side to railfanning.

 

I personally believe railfanning is as you say about documenting history and thats what I try to do with my pics.

I try to experience not only the photos but riding the buses and trains too.

I think fanning is also about doing your best to improve the transit landscape (such as preserving equipment,improving routes,etc).This leads to a new generation of railfans who instead of being raised on arnine fantrips,are raised on R160 fantrips.Would you want your child to be raise on a R211 and ask you "Why didnt they start at R1?" or do you want them to know there was a R1?

 

People take to much for granted.Dont.Take photos not only of the trans but the urban landscape.Dont just railfan.Become a transit innovator.Improve transit in your community.Do what you can to preserve the bus you love now when its time comes.Shape history.The world will be the the better for it.Break the limtations.Railfanning is not just about take a worthless in historical context blurry shot of an exclusive.Ride it.Take in the experience.Tell your children.Then its an exclusive.

 

For all of time.Not just for one day.

 

Once again just my $2.50.

 

I believe that one of the most useful things someone can do with the camera is trying to incorporate as much of the surrounding environment as possible. Not just including that restauraunt in the background that might not exist in 20 years, but even if the photo includes a 100% transit oriented background (i.e. in a station, I will tie into this concept later in the post). As well, I think it's important not to be picky with what you photograph. Sure, you might dislike some of the equipment that's kicking around, but things and opinions change, and one day, when the equipment (of which you might now be a fan) is retiring, your future self will thank your past self for making sure to photograph it as best they could. Be it old South Ferry (the point is slightly undermined given that it opened again, but the main idea is still there, given that it's temporary), Union station in Toronto or Šafárikovo námestie in Bratislava, there will come a time when what may seem ordinary and mundane today will no longer be considered such. People will want to see how things looked and worked 50 years ago, and it's important to grant them that opportunity.

 

Mind, this post is mostly talking about the archive side of things. The preservation bit is a very excellent piece of advice as well, though I have nothing else to add to it.

[realizm]

Not the R188, the R32. I last read 2 trips yesterday.

 

I've just asked a T/O. One time deal. They were not in service today.