R211 Discussion Thread

[Kamen Rider]

The 211s are still listed as being tested on the Sea Beach the next three weekends on E3-4 according to the GOs.

 

the basic trade off is mechanical complexity. A 10 car train of single cars needs 20 control stands and 40 Door controls. A 10 car R160 set has only 8 MDCs and 4 control stands. 

[texassubwayfan555]

2 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

A 10 car train of single cars needs 20 control stands and 40 Door controls. A 10 car R160 set has only 8 MDCs and 4 control stands.

Although this does save money, based on the documentation I have read about NTTs, all cars basically have the same equipment (like propulsion, third rail shoes, and air compressors) except for the drivers controls and door panels only found on the end cars. My middle solution between cost and flexibility is something like  , who has single cars but with simpler hostler controls at both ends of b cars and on the non cab end of a cars.

[LGA Link N Train]

https://new.mta.info/document/98291#page=10

First Option Order (640 Cars) is anticipated to arrive between Feb 2025 and Dec 2026.

Edited October 21, 2022 by LGA Link N Train
Link came out wrong

[Vulturious]

11 minutes ago, LGA Link N Train said:

https://new.mta.info/document/98291#page=10

First Option Order (640 Cars) is anticipated to arrive between Feb 2025 and Dec 2026.

Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait, what? "The cars to be purchased under Option 1 will provide replacements for the R46 fleet that runs on the A and C lines", but... what's the base order doing then?

[LGA Link N Train]

11 minutes ago, Vulturious said:

what's the base order doing then?

Being delivered.

[R32 3838]

15 minutes ago, Vulturious said:

Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait, what? "The cars to be purchased under Option 1 will provide replacements for the R46 fleet that runs on the A and C lines", but... what's the base order doing then?

 

The Base order cars are still in line to replace the already retired R32s (50% of the remaining fleet, The other 50% were replaced by the R179s) The SI R44s and the some of the R46s.

The Option order would replace the remaining R46s completely.

Option Order II is just for fleet expansion.

[Vulturious]

39 minutes ago, R32 3838 said:

 

The Base order cars are still in line to replace the already retired R32s (50% of the remaining fleet, The other 50% were replaced by the R179s) The SI R44s and the some of the R46s.

The Option order would replace the remaining R46s completely.

Option Order II is just for fleet expansion.

Right, I forgot it was meant to do that, but some people got in the way and prematurally retired the R32's.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

23 hours ago, texassubwayfan555 said:

Although this does save money, based on the documentation I have read about NTTs, all cars basically have the same equipment (like propulsion, third rail shoes, and air compressors) except for the drivers controls and door panels only found on the end cars. My middle solution between cost and flexibility is something like  , who has single cars but with simpler hostler controls at both ends of b cars and on the non cab end of a cars.

I’ve long wanted for them to have made the middle car in every five-car set to have couplers and hostler controls to capitalize on the flexibility of going back to 60-foot cars.

2 hours ago, LGA Link N Train said:

https://new.mta.info/document/98291#page=10

First Option Order (640 Cars) is anticipated to arrive between Feb 2025 and Dec 2026.

But are they paid for?

[trainfan22]

I wonder if NYCT ever considered married pairs again for the NTT to increase flexibility. The M7/8/9's on the commuter railroads are in married pairs and have those computer screens in the cabs just like the R142 and up do on NYCT. So maintaining additional master controllers, computer screens and whatever other equipment is in the cabs shouldn't be an massive extra expense considering LIRR & MNR does it.

 

 

But open gangway seems to be the future for NYCT so two five car sets to make up an train it is.

[RandomRider0101]

19 minutes ago, trainfan22 said:

I wonder if NYCT ever considered married pairs again for the NTT to increase flexibility. The M7/8/9's on the commuter railroads are in married pairs and have those computer screens in the cabs just like the R142 and up do on NYCT. So maintaining additional master controllers, computer screens and whatever other equipment is in the cabs shouldn't be an massive extra expense considering LIRR & MNR does it.

 

 

But open gangway seems to be the future for NYCT so two five car sets to make up an train it is.

Yeah, I get what you mean with the flexibility. That was the priority back then with NYCT, but things have changed since. Now the priority is easier maintenance; the configured sets allow for that.

It makes sense that they're testing open gangways now since they've decided to settle with configured 5-car sets (4-car sets for BMT East).

Going back to Married Pairs would increase flexibility in terms of car availability; but it would make the open gangways less effective since people would only have the option to change between two cars. That's why the current set arrangement is perfect for the future gangways.

From my understanding, Long Island Rail Road & Metro North have no current plans to implement open gangways in the future; so I guess their current car setup works for them.

Plus you have to keep in mind that MTA NYCT is a completely different system from the others; so alot of things will be different. What works for one system may not work for another.

[RandomRider0101]

On 10/21/2022 at 7:01 PM, Vulturious said:

Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait, what? "The cars to be purchased under Option 1 will provide replacements for the R46 fleet that runs on the A and C lines", but... what's the base order doing then?

The base order will provide extra cars for expansion to the , as well as making the full length. It will also likely shift some of those R46s to CIY with the other R46s to give those lines a boost in spares; the rest will then start replacing the batch of R46s. The first option order would finish replacing the Pitkin/207th R46s , then start replacing the Coney Island batch of R46s.

If there are still R46s left over after option 1, then option 2 will finish the job completely; the remaining cars will provide further fleet expansion.

[LGA Link N Train]

On 10/21/2022 at 9:23 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

But are they paid for?

Yes.

[subwaycommuter1983]

On 10/21/2022 at 7:01 PM, Vulturious said:

Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait, what? "The cars to be purchased under Option 1 will provide replacements for the R46 fleet that runs on the A and C lines", but... what's the base order doing then?

The base order will replace the r46s on the A/C. The first option order will make the C full length and allow the G to be full length with 8 car r160s. It will also allow the B and D to get NTTs for 8th and 6th Avenue CBTC.

[RandomRider0101]

5 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

The base order will replace the r46s on the A/C. The first option order will make the C full length and allow the G to be full length with 8 car r160s. It will also allow the B and D to get NTTs for 8th and 6th Avenue CBTC.

I'm pretty sure the will become full length with the base order. The document already states that the first option will replace R46s on the . That means there will still be R46s left at Pitkin/207th after the base order. The priority should be making the full length & providing extra cars for fleet expansion first; it doesn't have to be a 1 for 1 replacement.

 

[darkstar8983]

Sounds about right. Maybe they realized that even though math wise, the base order would immediately kill off all R46s from Pitkin and the R44s from Staten Island, it wouldn’t improve the spare factor because it would be a 1 for 1 replacement. So what is implied is that the option order will guarrantee the replacement of the R46s from the , which have priority since now it’s stated that option 1 will be finished by 2026-2027, and 8 Av CBTC has to already be rolling by then.

[darkstar8983]

10 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

The base order will replace the r46s on the A/C. The first option order will make the C full length and allow the G to be full length with 8 car r160s. It will also allow the B and D to get NTTs for 8th and 6th Avenue CBTC.

The base order cannot guarantee 8-car R160s for the  since the 8-car sets of R211s are not scheduled to be there until option 2. It would leave the  and  with a very low spare factor until then, since it’s presumed that the  would need all R179s + some R143/R160 cars from the  pool. That leaves only 308 cars to split between the  and , of which the  needs 248 R160s.

[Kamen Rider]

They are working on getting the 179s CBTC compatible.

[texassubwayfan555]

I thought the R179s were delivered with CBTC.

[R32 3838]

2 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

The base order cannot guarantee 8-car R160s for the  since the 8-car sets of R211s are not scheduled to be there until option 2. It would leave the  and  with a very low spare factor until then, since it’s presumed that the  would need all R179s + some R143/R160 cars from the  pool. That leaves only 308 cars to split between the  and , of which the  needs 248 R160s.

 

R179 will be CBTC compatible before option Order II. They need the 130 R179s (5 car units) to Be CBTC ready and the 8 car ones as well meaning they can run on the . This would allow ENY to lose a portion of their 8 car R160s for the

 

 

33 minutes ago, texassubwayfan555 said:

I thought the R179s were delivered with CBTC.

R143s,R160s and R179s were delivered without CBTC kits but were built CBTC ready (meaning all TA or the vendor has to do is install the CBTC kits)

 

 

 

 

 

[texassubwayfan555]

The R142/As were not delivered CBTC ready?

[R32 3838]

18 minutes ago, texassubwayfan555 said:

The R142/As were not delivered CBTC ready?

No, That's why the R142As had to be completely converted and that's why there's a large cabinet on the right side outside of the cab on the R188s. The R142/R142A order was signed in 1997 and didn't have CBTC in mind when it came to the IRT. The line however was planned hence the R143s being built CBTC ready.

[Lawrence St]

I’ve heard the SIR announcements from a friend, it’s in the style of Metro North with a new male announcer.

I’ll try to find the link, but IIRC it goes something like “THIS IS A. LOCAL. TRAIN TO. TOTTENVILLE. THE NEXT STOP IS. ARTHUR KILL.”

[darkstar8983]

1 hour ago, R32 3838 said:

 

R179 will be CBTC compatible before option Order II. They need the 130 R179s (5 car units) to Be CBTC ready and the 8 car ones as well meaning they can run on the . This would allow ENY to lose a portion of their 8 car R160s for the

 

 

R143s,R160s and R179s were delivered without CBTC kits but were built CBTC ready (meaning all TA or the vendor has to do is install the CBTC kits)

 

 

 

 

 

You bring up a good point about the R179s being converted to CBTC operation, but still let us not forget spare factor issues, which is really going to be the main roadblock behind making the entire  fleet 8-car trains until any 8-car R211s arrive to increase the fleet for the (most likely, and freeing up more R160s for the  and ) If we ignore this, we'll end up with mixed fleet trains (some 5-car R160s and some 8-car R160s), which cannot be theoretically run because all it will take is for one TO to stop at the wrong stopping position and open the doors to halt that operation.

[texassubwayfan555]

23 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

I’ll try to find the link

How did they send it to you?

[RandomRider0101]

5 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

Sounds about right. Maybe they realized that even though math wise, the base order would immediately kill off all R46s from Pitkin and the R44s from Staten Island, it wouldn’t improve the spare factor because it would be a 1 for 1 replacement. So what is implied is that the option order will guarrantee the replacement of the R46s from the , which have priority since now it’s stated that option 1 will be finished by 2026-2027, and 8 Av CBTC has to already be rolling by then.

Exactly; why would they have the whole R211 base order in service & still have the running mixed length trains? That doesn't make sense when that should be the first issue they fix as these cars come in, along with adding extra spares for both lines.