R211 Discussion Thread

[R32 3838]

4 hours ago, R68ACTrain said:

Here we go with this 8 car R179 propaganda. I'm assuming you haven't been on the forums enough to see that many of us here on the forums are saying, the R179s are NOT moving to Coney Island, or Jamaica for the . Just so you know, the real expectation for majority of the people on these forums are for the R211s and 10 Car R179s to cover and, have the 88 R179s at 207th Street move to East New York to Increase  services. Another thing I want to point out, the R211s are replacing the R46, not the R68/As. The R179s are not going to Concourse for no given reason, as when the R211 arrive at Jamaica, this results in displaced R160s returning to the  and . This also allows for the  and  to run New Techs as well. When you said the  would get R160s, you completely got it all wrong. Due to the platform length of the entire route, the  will be running 150ft trains under further notice. There is no plan for any New Techs to be slimmed to 3 car 60 foot trains to accomodate this route as of right now. Time will only tell. As for the R68/As in storage, I agree with you in this case.  will have to learn from their mistakes of immediately retiring older fleet as soon as the new fleet comes in, then a fleet shortage because the new fleet is being sidelined. This has been the case for both the subway, and bus division. Carry on,

 

If They still want the to go 8 cars, ENY could send Jamaica the 8 car R160s that are displaced by the R179s to push out some R160Bs to pitkin or 207th. That's if they go forward with the   going 8 cars (they need to figure it out if congesting pricing is a go)

 

ENY already have a lot of cars as is with each line having a good spare factor. Once the R179s get CBTC equipped with CBTC kits, The R179s could start running on the thus reducing the spare factor needed for the to have its own group of R160s.

[subwaycommuter1983]

4 hours ago, R68ACTrain said:

Behind all of this fleet assignment, this should be another reason why the  should be Concourse full time. For this to work, Jerome has to stop sending trains to Concourse to be stored over the weekends, and late nights. This will let CPW to be consecutively R179, R211, and possibily R160 (if any get sent to Concourse).

Those extra 130 R211s could be supplemental to Coney Island, Concourse, or Pitkin/207. Increase  or  service. 

As for SI, I agree that they could send some sort of fleet over there. But even though, Staten Island has been screaming new cars since the R44s retirement in 2010. So it may actually be better if they get R211S'.  

The NQW are not getting any r211's due to 8th and 6th Avenue CBTC. The NQW will get all r68's and they may get r160's once all option orders are delivered and in service.

The NQW will not be fully NTT's until the r68's are retired. So people in Astoria will need to take a chill pill, and stop acting like spoiled brats.

SI will get the r211S's. There's no question about it.

[subwaycommuter1983]

4 hours ago, R68ACTrain said:

Here we go with this 8 car R179 propaganda. I'm assuming you haven't been on the forums enough to see that many of us here on the forums are saying, the R179s are NOT moving to Coney Island, or Jamaica for the . Just so you know, the real expectation for majority of the people on these forums are for the R211s and 10 Car R179s to cover and, have the 88 R179s at 207th Street move to East New York to Increase  services. Another thing I want to point out, the R211s are replacing the R46, not the R68/As. The R179s are not going to Concourse for no given reason, as when the R211 arrive at Jamaica, this results in displaced R160s returning to the  and . This also allows for the  and  to run New Techs as well. When you said the  would get R160s, you completely got it all wrong. Due to the platform length of the entire route, the  will be running 150ft trains under further notice. There is no plan for any New Techs to be slimmed to 3 car 60 foot trains to accomodate this route as of right now. Time will only tell. As for the R68/As in storage, I agree with you in this case.  will have to learn from their mistakes of immediately retiring older fleet as soon as the new fleet comes in, then a fleet shortage because the new fleet is being sidelined. This has been the case for both the subway, and bus division. Carry on,

 

ENY doesn't need ALL 8 car trains in the B division. Since, the G is in Jamaica, it makes more sense for ENY to send r160's to the G and get the 8 car r179's from the C.

We need to think about the future. Ridership is increasing and the C will need to go full length with 10 car trains and G will need to go full length with 8 car trains.

[darkstar8983]

5 hours ago, R68ACTrain said:

Behind all of this fleet assignment, this should be another reason why the  should be Concourse full time. For this to work, Jerome has to stop sending trains to Concourse to be stored over the weekends, and late nights. This will let CPW to be consecutively R179, R211, and possibily R160 (if any get sent to Concourse).

Those extra 130 R211s could be supplemental to Coney Island, Concourse, or Pitkin/207. Increase  or  service. 

As for SI, I agree that they could send some sort of fleet over there. But even though, Staten Island has been screaming new cars since the R44s retirement in 2010. So it may actually be better if they get R211S'.  

I think the issue of the  at concourse is the inspection shop size. It barely covers the  (and did cover the  from 2001-2004, but that's when the trains both use the current  train R68s because of the shorter routes both running only north of 34 St).

 

The  train is assigned to Livonia but almost the whole fleet must be stored at 148 St because Livonia has thee maintenance shop, but only 13 tracks, most of which are assigned to hold the  and  trains between rush hours.

Edited October 5, 2022 by darkstar8983

[darkstar8983]

1 hour ago, R32 3838 said:

If They still want the to go 8 cars, ENY could send Jamaica the 8 car R160s that are displaced by the R179s to push out some R160Bs to pitkin or 207th. That's if they go forward with the   going 8 cars (they need to figure it out if congesting pricing is a go)

 

ENY already have a lot of cars as is with each line having a good spare factor. Once the R179s get CBTC equipped with CBTC kits, The R179s could start running on the thus reducing the spare factor needed for the to have its own group of R160s.

Yeah, in my earlier lengthy post about the  going to 8-car trains with the currently proposed fleet, there should be enough cars just to provide the service levels available today,, but not for service increases in the ENY division because the spare factor is perfect (did the math again in the earlier post) at 7 trains apiece for the  and  (the  will just piggyback off of the  and could get an extra 8-car train to make up for it sharing its spares with the . My math also accounted for the  keeping the same frequencies it has now, even though the MTA will probably cut it back to 10-12 minutes during rush hours due to the 8-car trains), and the  will have a spare factor of 5 trains (sufficient since 5 trainsets that are used one the  only run one round trip each rush hour anyways). 

You can't push out any R160s without immediately doing a one-for-one replacement with R211s because those R160s freed up from the  would just improve spare factor on the  and allow for service increases on the  and . CBTC activation on 8 Av will then remove any hurdle preventing an increase in rush hour  service, meaning get ready for more 179 St train trips, since Jamaica Center can't handle more than 12 TPH.

[darkstar8983]

1 hour ago, R32 3838 said:

If They still want the to go 8 cars, ENY could send Jamaica the 8 car R160s that are displaced by the R179s to push out some R160Bs to pitkin or 207th. That's if they go forward with the   going 8 cars (they need to figure it out if congesting pricing is a go)

 

ENY already have a lot of cars as is with each line having a good spare factor. Once the R179s get CBTC equipped with CBTC kits, The R179s could start running on the thus reducing the spare factor needed for the to have its own group of R160s.

It would be an almost one-for-one switch of  88 R179s + 32 R211s for X number of R160s to the . And the numbers can be arbitrary since the  and  can switch cars just like how the  and  switch. 

[darkstar8983]

1 hour ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

The NQW are not getting any r211's due to 8th and 6th Avenue CBTC. The NQW will get all r68's and they may get r160's once all option orders are delivered and in service.

The NQW will not be fully NTT's until the r68's are retired. So people in Astoria will need to take a chill pill, and stop acting like spoiled brats.

SI will get the r211S's. There's no question about it.

the key word is SOME. Some R160s will be leftover because of the temporary surplus of R211 cars being ordered (which is good thinking on the MTA's part to anticipate route changes, service increases following congestion pricing, and ensuring a fleet is ready in case phase 2 of SAS is ready before any R68 replacements are). Those leftovers, I've already said my two cents on where they should go:

Pre-6 Av CBTC: Leftover R160s to  /  (might be closer to 180-200 cars if the MTA decides to be stingy with spare factors, but low-balling it, I'd say about 150 cars may be in surplus) 

Post-6 Av CBTC: switched to  (but at this point, you'd need to make sure the whole  can be NTT cars thru spare factor reductions, otherwise, keep on the ).****

****This last point is why I merely made the suggestion of sending SIR some R68/R68A cars and allow for an increase in mainline R211 cars. 

 

Just remember: TIME WILL TELL!!! We can speculate until the cows come home, but time will tell.

[trainfan22]

They can't send R68/68As to SIR cause they would have to be refittted with cab signals. That's why the R46s weren't sent there cause it would cost too much $$$ to refit them to use cab signals.

[subwaycommuter1983]

28 minutes ago, darkstar8983 said:

the key word is SOME. Some R160s will be leftover because of the temporary surplus of R211 cars being ordered (which is good thinking on the MTA's part to anticipate route changes, service increases following congestion pricing, and ensuring a fleet is ready in case phase 2 of SAS is ready before any R68 replacements are). Those leftovers, I've already said my two cents on where they should go:

Pre-6 Av CBTC: Leftover R160s to  /  (might be closer to 180-200 cars if the MTA decides to be stingy with spare factors, but low-balling it, I'd say about 150 cars may be in surplus) 

Post-6 Av CBTC: switched to  (but at this point, you'd need to make sure the whole  can be NTT cars thru spare factor reductions, otherwise, keep on the ).****

****This last point is why I merely made the suggestion of sending SIR some R68/R68A cars and allow for an increase in mainline R211 cars. 

 

Just remember: TIME WILL TELL!!! We can speculate until the cows come home, but time will tell.

Im not sure if the r211S's can be configured to run on the subway. However, I think the MTA should have purchased more than 75 r211S's, so that they can also be used for IBX. 

IBX should not be built as commuter rails because it will be too expensive for riders. IBX should be heavy rail similar to SIR, which is a rail that uses subway-car-like rolling stock and will allow the fare to be the same as the subway and bus.

[Trainmaster5]

29 minutes ago, darkstar8983 said:

I think the issue of the  at concourse is the inspection shop size. It barely covers the  (and did cover the  from 2001-2004, but that's when the trains both use the current  train R68s because of the shorter routes both running only north of 34 St).

 

The  train is assigned to Livonia but almost the whole fleet must be stored at 148 St because Livonia has thee maintenance shop, but only 13 tracks, most of which are assigned to hold the  and  trains between rush hours.

Let me ask a general question if I may ? It’s not directed to any one poster so please don’t be afraid to respond to it. You, correctly, point to the limitations of the existing subway yard capacity. I’ve seen the situation ignored or glossed over for more than a decade. I think Kareem Abdul Jabbar is correct about the educational system. Reading comprehension is fundamental. Perhaps the poster who criticized the Mosholu / Concourse dynamics should have figured out why some  trains are laid up in the Concourse yard. There are other sites that go into detail about the subway system in some detail. Same thing with the idea of fleet expansion. There’s not enough room in many places which is why trains are laid up on mainline tracks like Queens Blvd. Unless they run the extra new equipment 24/7 with little or no riders where are they going to store the cars ? Think about the extra mileage, maintenance, and employee salary this would entail. Is anyone advocating a return to the graffiti days ? I personally , have laid up IRT cars on the VC line from the bridge up to 231 st, on the  line at Gun Hill lower on the 3rd Avenue station platforms,  line from Pelham Parkway to Bronx Park East, and the  line from Pelham Parkway to south of Morris Park before the Unionport yard was built.  Before the NTT arrived.I’m guessing that the situation is similar in the B division. I think that fleet expansion isn’t well thought out by many people on the forums. I would love to see what Car Equipment has projected for the future. I’d also love to see what some posters have in mind for the future of the R68 class equipment. Just curious. My opinion. Carry on.

[trainfan22]

2 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

Im not sure if the r211S's can be configured to run on the subway. However, I think the MTA should have purchased more than 75 r211S's, so that they can also be used for IBX. 

IBX should not be built as commuter rails because it will be too expensive for riders. IBX should be heavy rail similar to SIR, which is a rail that uses subway-car-like rolling stock and will allow the fare to be the same as the subway and bus.

The SI R211 will test on NYCT trackage then be sent to SIR, they will be refitted where they can be sent to BIE by trip cocks just so they can safety run on NYCT trackage as trip cocks aren't needed on SIR due to them using a different signal system.

 

 

I guess the reason they will test on NYCT trackage as SIR is only two tracks most of its route and they don't have anything similar to the Rockaway Test track. Personally, I would have a single track G.O on the overnight hours on SIR so the R211 can test on its home trackage without ever going to NYCT.

[texassubwayfan555]

What kind of signals does the SIR use? I assumed the same as the subway but never really though about it. Also I have never seen an SIR R44 cab.

[Eric B]

51 minutes ago, trainfan22 said:

The SI R211 will test on NYCT trackage then be sent to SIR, they will be refitted where they can be sent to BIE by trip cocks just so they can safety run on NYCT trackage as trip cocks aren't needed on SIR due to them using a different signal system.

I thought they were adding the track-trip system to SIR.

[Amiri the subway guy]

5 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

The NQW are not getting any r211's due to 8th and 6th Avenue CBTC. The NQW will get all r68's and they may get r160's once all option orders are delivered and in service.

The NQW will not be fully NTT's until the r68's are retired. So people in Astoria will need to take a chill pill, and stop acting like spoiled brats.

SI will get the r211S's. There's no question about it.

They will be a surplus of R160s the Q often gets rerouted to 6th Avenue so they should be fully R160. The N/W can be 85% R160 but some rare R68/As during rush hours the Rockway shuttle should just gets R68s. The remaining amount could just be spares until further notice 

[trainfan22]

48 minutes ago, texassubwayfan555 said:

What kind of signals does the SIR use? I assumed the same as the subway but never really though about it. Also I have never seen an SIR R44 cab.

ATC/Cab Signals. 

 

 

Here's an railfan view video of an SIR train, as you can see in the video the stations don't have wayside signals as the signal aspect is shown inside the cabs

 

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by trainfan22

[subwaycommuter1983]

1 hour ago, Amiri the subway guy said:

They will be a surplus of R160s the Q often gets rerouted to 6th Avenue so they should be fully R160. The N/W can be 85% R160 but some rare R68/As during rush hours the Rockway shuttle should just gets R68s. The remaining amount could just be spares until further notice 

I doubt that once ALL r211's are in service that there will be enough NTT's to make the whole B division 100% NTT's. 

The r68's can only stay on the NQW due to CBTC. Keep in mind that the Rockaway Park Shuttle becomes another branch of the A during rush hours and r68's cannot run on the A.

Also, keep in mind that SMEEs used to run on the N W before 2010. Therefore, there is no valid excuse for the NW not getting r68's. I am pretty sure that the MTA will use the same strategy that was used back then to deal with the rollsigns at Astoria. Also, the NW doesn't get rerouted to 6th Avenue. 

The Q can always borrow r160's from the B during the weekends. As for the NQW actually getting r160's, it depends on how many r160's gets displaced from Jamaica to CI. We have to remember that the B will get the r160's first due to 8th and 6th Avenue CBTC, while Concourse gets r211A's.

Edited October 6, 2022 by subwaycommuter1983

[LGA Link N Train]

1 minute ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

I doubt that once ALL r211's are in service that there will be enough NTT's to make the whole B division 100% NTT's.

There won't, but there will be enough to give at most half of the R-68/68A fleet shop time by the time both Option Orders Complete Delivery. Although due to the issues that have delayed the contract, I don't expect all R-211 cars to be on the property until at least 2029.

[R32 3838]

2 hours ago, Amiri the subway guy said:

They will be a surplus of R160s the Q often gets rerouted to 6th Avenue so they should be fully R160. The N/W can be 85% R160 but some rare R68/As during rush hours the Rockway shuttle should just gets R68s. The remaining amount could just be spares until further notice 

Why would you want the r68s at pitkin only for the rockaway shuttle when the rockaway shuttle uses whatever the uses meaning the shuttle is going to be R179s/R211s

 

Some of you don't even think

44 minutes ago, LGA Link N Train said:

There won't, but there will be enough to give at most half of the R-68/68A fleet shop time by the time both Option Orders Complete Delivery. Although due to the issues that have delayed the contract, I don't expect all R-211 cars to be on the property until at least 2029.

 

I would say 2027-early 2028 the latest. By the time the option order I cars start delivery, All of the current issues should be addressed by then.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by R32 3838

[Metro CSW]

5 minutes ago, R32 3838 said:

Why would you want the r68s at pitkin only for the rockaway shuttle when the rockaway shuttle uses whatever the uses meaning the shuttle is going to be R179s/R211s

 

Some of you don't even think

Could be worst.

 

They could be suggesting that a rush hour deadhead between The Rockaways and Coney Island would be feasible every day. I mean, imagine that insanity.... LOL.

 

Yeah, I know that doesn't make sense either.

[darkstar8983]

Ahhh - didn’t know that a feasibility study was already done to see if current SMEE cars could be retrofitted to SIR operations. But regardless, the R211 order will be a welcome need for the MTA B division that has suffered car shortages since 2010 (and have been amplified by service adjustments since then).

One crucial point brought up though is yard space. The yards ironically don’t have space for the current fleet despite its size reduction since the R160s came, and many trains are laid up on express tracks, elevated lines, and leave them exposed to vandals. Something should be done if possible to remedy this (more yards, more yard tracks)

[LGA Link N Train]

2 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

Ahhh - didn’t know that a feasibility study was already done to see if current SMEE cars could be retrofitted to SIR operations. But regardless, the R211 order will be a welcome need for the MTA B division that has suffered car shortages since 2010 (and have been amplified by service adjustments since then).

One crucial point brought up though is yard space. The yards ironically don’t have space for the current fleet despite its size reduction since the R160s came, and many trains are laid up on express tracks, elevated lines, and leave them exposed to vandals. Something should be done if possible to remedy this (more yards, more yard tracks)

Right Now, 36-38th Street yard is planned to get an upgrade to handle more trains in anticipation of the 2nd Avenue Subway. This was funded in the 2015-2019 Capital Program and Construction is supposedly set to start this November: http://web.mta.info/capitaldashboard/allframenew_head.html?PROJNUM=t7100441&PLTYPE=1&DISPLAYALL=Y

Thats all I can find on this topic. As for a new Yard, its high time that the  considers looking for a spot to place one. Although there aren't that many places within the city to place a new Rail Yard by.

[RandomRider0101]

2 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

Ahhh - didn’t know that a feasibility study was already done to see if current SMEE cars could be retrofitted to SIR operations. But regardless, the R211 order will be a welcome need for the MTA B division that has suffered car shortages since 2010 (and have been amplified by service adjustments since then).

One crucial point brought up though is yard space. The yards ironically don’t have space for the current fleet despite its size reduction since the R160s came, and many trains are laid up on express tracks, elevated lines, and leave them exposed to vandals. Something should be done if possible to remedy this (more yards, more yard tracks)

The thing with that is that there is limited space just to expand the yards & stuff.

I'm not sure, but MTA may have their work cut out for them these next few years.

[darkstar8983]

3 hours ago, LGA Link N Train said:

Right Now, 36-38th Street yard is planned to get an upgrade to handle more trains in anticipation of the 2nd Avenue Subway. This was funded in the 2015-2019 Capital Program and Construction is supposedly set to start this November: http://web.mta.info/capitaldashboard/allframenew_head.html?PROJNUM=t7100441&PLTYPE=1&DISPLAYALL=Y

Thats all I can find on this topic. As for a new Yard, its high time that the  considers looking for a spot to place one. Although there aren't that many places within the city to place a new Rail Yard by.

If this yard can get put into operation it could serve as a storage space for  trains, freeing up space in Jamaica, since now the yard has to accommodate the  again and has always been overcrowded, even though I’m sure the gap trains that are needed for rush hour service come from Avenue X / Coney Island Yard up the Culver Line express track as opposed to coming from 71 Av via the local tracks of QB.

[RedLine]

That project is not at 38 St Yard

[R68ACTrain]

On 10/5/2022 at 4:53 PM, subwaycommuter1983 said:

ENY doesn't need ALL 8 car trains in the B division. Since, the G is in Jamaica, it makes more sense for ENY to send r160's to the G and get the 8 car r179's from the C.

We need to think about the future. Ridership is increasing and the C will need to go full length with 10 car trains and G will need to go full length with 8 car trains.

The problem is, unless there isn't an expansion in Jamaica Yard, there is no way that ENY is gonna send their own fleet of R160s just for one line, that requires a distant deadhead on top of that.  I don't see this actually happening without Jamaica themselves moving some cars to other yards and making room.