L Train Service Between Brooklyn & Manhattan May Be Shut Down For Years

[Fresh Pond]

Could the pedestrian passageway between 7th and 8th Avs be reopened? It's a long walk, but could potentially take some riders off buses.

It would have to be rebuilt and reconfigured on the 8 Av end. The connection was severed when they added that second staircase to the platform across from the elevator.

[Wallyhorse]

Well, most of the forum members looked at it and reasoned that enough alternatives are available that gridlock will not be a problem; the threat will adequately be dispersed—spread out over a large area. The 6 Avenue Line itself will function as a substitute in some capacity since it joins the 8 Avenue Line from the far west and the Lexington Avenue Line from the far east. And the transfer points aren’t too far away from 14 Street itself. Folks further up or down already have options that are not under the threat of closure, so they can be counted out.

Except there are those east of 1st Avenue (plus those in particular at Peter Cooper Village that makes up a HUGE part of Stuyvessanttown) who would likely disagree and feel they need to be able to take the and not have to take crosstown buses at 14th or 23rd Streets that can be very slow due to other traffic.  It would not surprise me if pols do in fact demand the keep the Manhattan open at all costs for those people who actually depend on it along 14th Street.

[CenSin]

Except there are those east of 1st Avenue (plus those in particular at Peter Cooper Village that makes up a HUGE part of Stuyvessanttown) who would likely disagree and feel they need to be able to take the and not have to take crosstown buses at 14th or 23rd Streets that can be very slow due to other traffic. It would not surprise me if pols do in fact demand the keep the Manhattan open at all costs for those people who actually depend on it along 14th Street.

so that smaller community should be able to stretch the pain out for the Brooklynites who then have to wait 3 years instead of 18 months?

 

Small interests holding back the good from a larger public... Where have I heard this before?

[Eric B]

It would have to be rebuilt and reconfigured on the 8 Av end. The connection was severed when they added that second staircase to the platform across from the elevator.

Actually no, it leads to the door to the right of the staircase and elevator.

[Kamen Rider]

Actually no, it leads to the door to the right of the staircase and elevator.

which would mean it's all narrow single file if I'm following you correctly. You can see where most of the old ramp was cut off, unless you know a way around that, the connection would still be useless from a capacity standpoint.

 

Except there are those east of 1st Avenue (plus those in particular at Peter Cooper Village that makes up a HUGE part of Stuyvessanttown) who would likely disagree and feel they need to be able to take the and not have to take crosstown buses at 14th or 23rd Streets that can be very slow due to other traffic.  It would not surprise me if pols do in fact demand the keep the Manhattan open at all costs for those people who actually depend on it along 14th Street.

 

Oh for the love of...

 

If I've told you once... Politicians do not have the level of authority you think the do over the MTA. They could demand everything and the kitchen sink and the MTA can just as easily tell them to GTFO and not to come back. That's part of the reason the MTA exists, to remove local politics from transit operation. The only person they are beholden to is the Governor, and I really don't think he gives two hoots on the subject.

[Trainmaster5]

Except there are those east of 1st Avenue (plus those in particular at Peter Cooper Village that makes up a HUGE part of Stuyvessanttown) who would likely disagree and feel they need to be able to take the and not have to take crosstown buses at 14th or 23rd Streets that can be very slow due to other traffic.  It would not surprise me if pols do in fact demand the keep the Manhattan open at all costs for those people who actually depend on it along 14th Street.

The only politician who has a say in the line rehab is the Governor. There is no state or city politician who has a say, period. President Obama, US Senators Schumer and Gillibrand, the US Representative Maloney, nor Mrs. Clinton, Mr. Sanders, Mr. Cruz, nor Mr. Trump or any other wannabee has any clout or would get involved in a local, New York City argument. You better see where the local media stands on the project because from what I've seen they want it done ASAP. That means full closure for the duration. Anyone in the construction field would agree.  No one wants to stretch this out. Carry on.

[Wallyhorse]

The only politician who has a say in the line rehab is the Governor. There is no state or city politician who has a say, period. President Obama, US Senators Schumer and Gillibrand, the US Representative Maloney, nor Mrs. Clinton, Mr. Sanders, Mr. Cruz, nor Mr. Trump or any other wannabee has any clout or would get involved in a local, New York City argument. You better see where the local media stands on the project because from what I've seen they want it done ASAP. That means full closure for the duration. Anyone in the construction field would agree.  No one wants to stretch this out. Carry on.

Personally, I agree, however:

 

2018 is also an election year (including for Governor) and this is something that some in that part of Manhattan may try to use to advance why they should be elected.  A lot can happen in the next two and a half years and what might be recommended could wind up being set aside because of politics.  

[CenSin]

Personally, I agree, however:

 

2018 is also an election year (including for Governor) and this is something that some in that part of Manhattan may try to use to advance why they should be elected.  A lot can happen in the next two and a half years and what might be recommended could wind up being set aside because of politics.

If the governor has a brain, he will choose the shorter plan then. Think about it:

the small sliver of east village versus the rest of Williamsburg

 

I’ve walked from Union Square to 3 Avenue. It’s a really short stroll—so short that I don’t think 3 Avenue deserves its own station. The most affected area will be from 2 Avenue going east to the river, and even then it’s limited to the vicinity around 14 Street.

[Lance]

Personally, I agree, however:

 

2018 is also an election year (including for Governor) and this is something that some in that part of Manhattan may try to use to advance why they should be elected.  A lot can happen in the next two and a half years and what might be recommended could wind up being set aside because of politics.  

I don't know how to tell you this, but Cuomo is an upstate governor. Besides the token interest in NYC transit and his innate need to slap his name on every good thing that happens with the MTA, he really doesn't care all that much.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Personally, I agree, however:

 

2018 is also an election year (including for Governor) and this is something that some in that part of Manhattan may try to use to advance why they should be elected. A lot can happen in the next two and a half years and what might be recommended could wind up being set aside because of politics.

Only one politician (so far) is making a stink over the shutdown on the Manhattan side - Gale Brewer, the Manhattan Borough President. That's right, the Borough President, which really is nothing more than a figurehead title. If the shuts both tunnels down, there is nothing she can do about it. Literally. She has no real power. And 2018 is not an election year for her anyway (that would be 2017, same for the Mayor, the City Council members and the other borough presidents). You greatly overestimate how much power small-time politicians like Brewer have (do we really even need borough presidents if they don't have any substantial governing power?)

 

You also greatly overestimate how much power the residents of Stuy Town and Peter Cooper Village have. They're not "old money" families and most aren't politically connected. Most of them are going to realize that shutting down only one tunnel at a time or restricting the work to weekends only (like Brewer wants and like the MTA is doing now) are much worse options. They will want the work to done as quickly as possible. Yes, there will be some who complain and threaten to "raise holy hell," but not enough to get the full tunnel closure option set aside in favor of the longer shutdown options. And no figurehead political will be able to get the to set that best option aside either.

[BreeddekalbL]

it's the hipsters who are raising holy hell to get the full closure option put aside

[Wallyhorse]

Only one politician (so far) is making a stink over the shutdown on the Manhattan side - Gale Brewer, the Manhattan Borough President. That's right, the Borough President, which really is nothing more than a figurehead title. If the shuts both tunnels down, there is nothing she can do about it. Literally. She has no real power. And 2018 is not an election year for her anyway (that would be 2017, same for the Mayor, the City Council members and the other borough presidents). You greatly overestimate how much power small-time politicians like Brewer have (do we really even need borough presidents if they don't have any substantial governing power?)

 

You also greatly overestimate how much power the residents of Stuy Town and Peter Cooper Village have. They're not "old money" families and most aren't politically connected. Most of them are going to realize that shutting down only one tunnel at a time or restricting the work to weekends only (like Brewer wants and like the MTA is doing now) are much worse options. They will want the work to done as quickly as possible. Yes, there will be some who complain and threaten to "raise holy hell," but not enough to get the full tunnel closure option set aside in favor of the longer shutdown options. And no figurehead political will be able to get the to set that best option aside either.

Like I said, you may be right, but we will see.

[B46 via Utica]

Only one politician (so far) is making a stink over the shutdown on the Manhattan side - Gale Brewer, the Manhattan Borough President. That's right, the Borough President, which really is nothing more than a figurehead title. If the shuts both tunnels down, there is nothing she can do about it. Literally. She has no real power. And 2018 is not an election year for her anyway (that would be 2017, same for the Mayor, the City Council members and the other borough presidents). You greatly overestimate how much power small-time politicians like Brewer have (do we really even need borough presidents if they don't have any substantial governing power?)

You also greatly overestimate how much power the residents of Stuy Town and Peter Cooper Village have. They're not "old money" families and most aren't politically connected. Most of them are going to realize that shutting down only one tunnel at a time or restricting the work to weekends only (like Brewer wants and like the MTA is doing now) are much worse options. They will want the work to done as quickly as possible. Yes, there will be some who complain and threaten to "raise holy hell," but not enough to get the full tunnel closure option set aside in favor of the longer shutdown options. And no figurehead political will be able to get the to set that best option aside either.

 

Just when I thought the hipsters couldn't get more picky. To stoop to a level as low as to threaten the for necessary renovations is a little much.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Agreed...and that's why the needs to be as straightforward as possible with the current state of the Canarsie tunnels. They've already put out several alternatives for shutting down the tunnels and how long the work will take depending on which alternative they choose. But now they need to put them in writing (and online). And they also need to begin forming plans for alternative routes for getting riders between between Brooklyn and Manhattan. It will be interesting to see what they do during the upcoming community meetings.

[MHV9218]

it's the hipsters who are raising holy hell to get the full closure option put aside

 

I know you love the bogeyman of "hipsters," but try to name a single neighborhood in New York wholeheartedly reliant on a specific train that wouldn't fight for its service. You don't think the people of Flushing would stage a coup if service were curtailed for years on end? And even there, transportation options are arguably better because of the LIRR and buses. Williamsburg, Greenpoint, and Bushwick have every right to complain about this. It's not "hipster" entitlement--it's the natural response to a crippling shutdown. That doesn't mean I think the shutdown shouldn't happen, but your ranting about a group of people misses the point and contributes nothing to the conversation.

[Around the Horn]

I know you love the bogeyman of "hipsters," but try to name a single neighborhood in New York wholeheartedly reliant on a specific train that wouldn't fight for its service. You don't think the people of Flushing would stage a coup if service were curtailed for years on end? And even there, transportation options are arguably better because of the LIRR and buses. Williamsburg, Greenpoint, and Bushwick have every right to complain about this. It's not "hipster" entitlement--it's the natural response to a crippling shutdown. That doesn't mean I think the shutdown shouldn't happen, but your ranting about a group of people misses the point and contributes nothing to the conversation.

I'd agree with you there.

 

I have regular discussions with my Psychology teacher about various things and his constant refrain is that "People love to find a solution to a symptom, but never solve the problem". Seems apt here.

[GojiMet86]

Well, now that we are on the subject, I'll put in a few thoughts. I really believe that it's an attitude that is common with people who come from the "school of hard knocks", people who resent the higher income these people earn or, bear with me, homophobes. Basically conservative. It's not a coincidence that people who knock on hipsters tend to be conservatives. Or it's not a coincidence that some belong to unions, which despite what the left wants to believe, are replete with members who would love to bash hipster heads in. All the memes, about hipsters sporting mustaches and being queer (not like real men), get tiring after a while. I know a number of Astorians who hate that the rent is going up and up. And there's an Astoria FB group I'm on that consistently gets people who post about yuppies and hipsters ruining the neighborhood. yet they'll blame the hipsters for it. First off, the people moving in aren't exactly thrilled about paying the high rent. Second, it's really the landlords and real estate people that make lives miserable for everyone. Funny enough, if you were to take a look at the names of said people, you would find a lot with Greek names. So much for caring about the neighborhood. Funnier still is that the people moving out are not exactly moving to other parts of the city. A good number have moved to the suburbs, like New Jersey. And funniest yet, I bet you these home grown Astorians who bitch and whine are the exact NIMBYs who refused have the N extended to the Airport.

[bobtehpanda]

Well, now that we are on the subject, I'll put in a few thoughts. I really believe that it's an attitude that is common with people who come from the "school of hard knocks", people who resent the higher income these people earn or, bear with me, homophobes. Basically conservative. It's not a coincidence that people who knock on hipsters tend to be conservatives. Or it's not a coincidence that some belong to unions, which despite what the left wants to believe, are replete with members who would love to bash hipster heads in. All the memes, about hipsters sporting mustaches and being queer (not like real men), get tiring after a while. I know a number of Astorians who hate that the rent is going up and up. And there's an Astoria FB group I'm on that consistently gets people who post about yuppies and hipsters ruining the neighborhood. yet they'll blame the hipsters for it. First off, the people moving in aren't exactly thrilled about paying the high rent. Second, it's really the landlords and real estate people that make lives miserable for everyone. Funny enough, if you were to take a look at the names of said people, you would find a lot with Greek names. So much for caring about the neighborhood. Funnier still is that the people moving out are not exactly moving to other parts of the city. A good number have moved to the suburbs, like New Jersey. And funniest yet, I bet you these home grown Astorians who bitch and whine are the exact NIMBYs who refused have the N extended to the Airport.

 

Ah, yes, those who are being displaced should be just peachy about their situation. Anyone who has the slightest problem with it is literally a homophobic, pro-union fascist who is Hitler's nephew first removed. And if they leave for a place with reasonable living expenses, they weren't even a "real New Yorker" in the first place. Hipsters are a totally benign influence that always work to integrate into the communities they move into and patronize the businesses that already exist, so attacking them makes you an actual war criminal. /s

 

Attacking hipsters about the train shutdown is counterproductive, but so is the other extreme.

[BreeddekalbL]

I know you love the bogeyman of "hipsters," but try to name a single neighborhood in New York wholeheartedly reliant on a specific train that wouldn't fight for its service. You don't think the people of Flushing would stage a coup if service were curtailed for years on end? And even there, transportation options are arguably better because of the LIRR and buses. Williamsburg, Greenpoint, and Bushwick have every right to complain about this. It's not "hipster" entitlement--it's the natural response to a crippling shutdown. That doesn't mean I think the shutdown shouldn't happen, but your ranting about a group of people misses the point and contributes nothing to the conversation.

 

yeah and if im not mistaken aren't the people on the doing exactly what you said right now regarding cbtc and i went to battle with one of those in the community who said the 1 tube closure is good and its only 5 to 7 minutes etc if they do the full shutdown option it will tank property values and used coded racism and crime as the argument against the full option  

[Lance]

They can only demand what is possible. Let it be known that they must choose from these options:

1. Package #1: Full shutdown in Manhattan

   Time: 18 months

   Perks: upgraded stations

   Cons: no service for 18 months

2. Package #2: Partial shutdown in Manhattan

   Time: 3 years

   Perks: upgraded stations

   Cons: severely reduced service for 3 years due to single-tracking and inability to do certain upgrades to stations since they are in use

A bit of an update: the MTA is expect to present the above two options to the board for consideration sometime today. Based on preliminary information, option 2 would reduce service between Bedford Av and 8 Avenue by around 80%. That would mean, on average, one train every 20 minutes. I really don't see the appeal of this option. From a rider's perspective, this kind of limited service is completely useless. Crosstown riders would be much better off taking the buses above ground over waiting for an shuttle. From a cost-benefit perspective, the MTA is not really saving anything by running limited Manhattan-Brooklyn service. After all, they will still need to run the additional buses along 14th Street, the bus bridge across the Williamsburg Bridge and add more service to the , and lines. Also, even if one tunnel remains in service, that will likely only be during the normal hours. Nights and weekends, I can see the agency completely suspending service between Manhattan and Brooklyn. That will mean at the very least, expanded train service on the weekends.

[Eric B]

A bit of an update: the MTA is expect to present the above two options to the board for consideration sometime today. Based on preliminary information, option 2 would reduce service between Bedford Av and 8 Avenue by around 80%. That would mean, on average, one train every 20 minutes. I really don't see the appeal of this option. From a rider's perspective, this kind of limited service is completely useless. Crosstown riders would be much better off taking the buses above ground over waiting for an shuttle. From a cost-benefit perspective, the MTA is not really saving anything by running limited Manhattan-Brooklyn service. After all, they will still need to run the additional buses along 14th Street, the bus bridge across the Williamsburg Bridge and add more service to the , and lines. Also, even if one tunnel remains in service, that will likely only be during the normal hours. Nights and weekends, I can see the agency completely suspending service between Manhattan and Brooklyn. That will mean at the very least, expanded train service on the weekends.

I agree that the benefit of the partial opening would not outweigh the detriment of the extended time. (It would still crippling). So they might as well do the full shutdown for a third of the time.

[Lance]

Well, it would be half the time of a partial closure, but your point still stands.

[onthe1train]

I hope they show photos and videos of the tubes during that meeting so residents can see just how dire the situation is. Yeah, it sucks, I would be pretty upset too if my line got shut down, but I'd rather be safe.

 

Looking at some numbers, the extended one-tube-at-a-time shut down affects more people anyway:

 

Serving and average of 300,000 daily, we can say the L handles about 110 million riders a year.

 

18 month shutdown: 110 million * 1.5 years = 165 million riders affected

 

36 month shutdown: 110 million * 0.8 (at 1/5 capacity, number of riders no longer able to take the L) = 88 million * 3 years = 264 million riders affect.

 

It's an easy choice.

[46Dover]

I don't know why everyone who lives along the is having a heart attack over this.

 

These are your travel alternatives, you can use the to the , use the bus, use your LEGS, or use the free shuttle buses.

 

However, if the will start terminating at Bedford Avenue, can the MTA set up a shuttle bus that will either take them to Marcy Avenue to the and or across the WillyB.

You best believe CitiBikes will be out in full force....

[RailRunRob]

The latest MTA released some maps and plans it seems.

 

We all know the math and science behind this. Rip the Band-Aid off. I hope moving forward people I have more interest in transportation and investing in infrastructure this is a perfect example how important it is And more so how the average person doesn't think twice when there train is moving 45 mph under the the East River and what it took to get there. We never think about our veins and yout heart until that heart attack hit's same logic apply here.

 

http://secondavenuesagas.com/2016/05/05/two-options-l-train-apocalypseageddon/