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Union Tpke

SI Bus Study sort of up on MTA website

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I just happened to find this wonderful page.

http://nymta.civicconnect.com

rsz_2existing_simplified_for_website-02.

 

rsz_1recommended_simplified_for_website-

Proposed-Changes-Chart.png

 

Once the comprehensive redesign of the Staten Island express bus network is in place, here’s what you can expect to see:

  • Approximately 99.5% of existing riders would have average travel times similar to or faster than their trips today
  • The average end-to-end route running time would be reduced by an estimated 20 minutes
  • Because reducing route length generally improves performance, all riders would experience the benefits of a more reliable system
  • Approximately 86% of riders who currently have a one-seat ride to their destination would continue to have a one-seat ride – the remaining 14% would most likely make a free transfer to the subway in Manhattan
  • Many routes could be more easily rerouted on the fly in response to road incidents and delays
  • The entire express bus network would be easier to understand

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it looks like no service between downtown and 23rd street at all. also i assume these are the peek service routes. 

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If they're going to concentrate that many express bus routes into so few Manhattan trunks, those trunks better have adequate stop and lane facilities to handle all those buses.

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They probably forgot to consider that a conga line of buses can quickly pile up with this plan.

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I just happened to find this wonderful page.

http://nymta.civicconnect.com

rsz_2existing_simplified_for_website-02.

 

rsz_1recommended_simplified_for_website-

Proposed-Changes-Chart.png

 

Once the comprehensive redesign of the Staten Island express bus network is in place, here’s what you can expect to see:

  • Approximately 99.5% of existing riders would have average travel times similar to or faster than their trips today
  • The average end-to-end route running time would be reduced by an estimated 20 minutes
  • Because reducing route length generally improves performance, all riders would experience the benefits of a more reliable system
  • Approximately 86% of riders who currently have a one-seat ride to their destination would continue to have a one-seat ride – the remaining 14% would most likely make a free transfer to the subway in Manhattan
  • Many routes could be more easily rerouted on the fly in response to road incidents and delays
  • The entire express bus network would be easier to understand

 

The only way I'd support this is if they shut down the road to cars during the peak hours, and do not touch the X1.

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This better not be the end of the study. Where's the portion on the local network? If they completely ignored the local network, there's going to be problems, I can promise them that....

 

The only way I'd support this is if they shut down the road to cars during the peak hours, and do not touch the X1.

 

I'd say the absolute opposite and say that the X1 is the first route that needs to be restructured. It's a Downtown/Midtown combo route that makes all stops throughout the whole island. 

 

Taking a glance at the map (which BTW, the original map is a little off. For example, off the top of my head, I see they're missing the X30 AM routing via South Avenue & Goethals Road North), it looks like they're trying to do the following (for peak service anyway)
 
X1 eliminated
X2 extended to Hylan & Richmond (and possibly rerouted to run down 5th instead of Lexington)
X3 extended to the ETC, and sent to Worth Street instead of the WFC.
X4 eliminated
X5 eliminated
X7 goes up the FDR Drive to Midtown (likely 5th/Madison). Routing in Great Kills 
tweaked to run the length of Giffords Lane.
X8 goes to Worth Street. Routing in Great Kills tweaked to run the length of Giffords Lane.
X9 eliminated
X10 eliminated
X11 remains as-is
X12 terminates at Worth Street
X14 
terminates at Worth Street
X15 
terminates at Worth Street. Also, Clarke Avenue diversion eliminated.
X17A cut back to ETC
X17J extended to Annadale Road
X19 rerouted to run the length of Huguenot Avenue
X21 increased frequency, and runs up 5th/Madison instead of across 42nd.
X22A & X22 Park-and-Ride loop eliminated. Also, X22 runs straight to Bloomingdale Road instead of traveling via Rossville Avenue.
X23 runs the length of Rossville Avenue/Seguine Avenue/Foster Road and terminates at Hylan & Sharrott
X24 runs the length of Arden Avenue and terminates at Hylan & Barclay.
X30 terminates at Forest & Brighton.
X42 rerouted to Port Richmond.
 
Port Richmond express buses terminate at Port Richmond & Richmond Terrace instead of Castleton & Jewett.
Edited by checkmatechamp13

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My thoughts (aside from the fact that I'm waiting for the local section to be released)

 

The World Financial Center is a big stop on the X7/9/10B. I do think at least one route should serve it. I also think that the lack of ridership between Worth & 23rd is exaggerated. I would have at least a Hylan Blvd route and the X10B run up West Street and Spring/6th (northbound) Broadway/Houston (southbound) to/from 23rd Street. I do absolutely agree, however with the idea of starting buses at Worth Street instead of the WFC.

 

I'm not wild about the lack of a route on Water Street, but from what I've seen, most of the ridership is south of Water/Wall (inclusive). Still, I'd run at least a Hylan Blvd route up there (likely just leave the X8 as-is).

 

I see what they're trying to do with Father Capodanno (trying to match it up with Giffords Lane ridership-wise). The thing is that those buses don't run on Father Capodanno for the ridership, but rather because it's a quicker route to get to points south of Midland. So whatever time people save by waiting a couple of minutes less for a bus, they will likely lose by making more stops on Hylan.

 

The X15 doesn't get much ridership in Great Kills (most people take the X7/8, which BTW I think should retain their routing down Armstrong/Leverett as it avoids traffic on Arthur Kill and better-serves the neighborhood), so I think the diversion to Clarke Avenue does more good than harm, as it better-serves people in that part of Richmondtown.

 

I think they're trying to use the X30 as the main Midtown route for the North Shore. It's the alternative for X42 Midtown passengers in Mariners Harbor, and X14 Midtown passengers in Westerleigh/West Brighton. The problem is that it doesn't go south of 42nd Street in Manhattan.

 

I guess they're really trying to minimize overlap by routing the X42 to Port Richmond. It would serve Midtown passengers on the X14 in that area. As you go further north along Port Richmond Ave, though, it becomes all about the local bus. I don't think there's anymore ridership to be gained by running to Richmond Terrace as opposed to Castleton & Jewett where the depot is.

 

The X19 is the only Downtown route on the deep South Shore, and apparently they want it to stay that way. There should be a Downtown version of the X22. Also, the X23 should probably be routed to Hylan & Craig (and the X22 cut back to the same place) since it would be quicker than doubling back on the X22 via Amboy, Craig, and Hylan.

 

Not sure what to say about the X17J taking over the X17A route in Annadale. Maybe it's a typo.

 

Also, the X31 should end at Windham Loop (arguably, if the X21 is going to be beefed up that much, so should the X17J). 

 

I do hope there's some compromises (such as more frequent weekend service, later spans on the North Shore express routes, and some form of the X10 and/or X17 running overnight)

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I also wonder, what will happen to the Tottenville off-peak service (that exists). Will it be discontinued, or incorporated onto the X22?

 

I hope that this is just the layout for rush hour service, because having too many off-peak routes would have a bunch of routes with crappy headways (knowing how the MTA doesn't want to add more service than it should have to). 

Edited by BM5 via Woodhaven Bl

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I also wonder, what will happen to the Tottenville off-peak service (that exists). Will it be discontinued, or incorporated onto the X22?

 

I hope that this is just the layout for rush hour service, because having too many off-peak routes would have a bunch of routes with crappy headways (knowing how the MTA doesn't want to add more service than it should have to). 

 

I guess we'll have to wait for an official report/presentation to find out. I suppose it would be interesting if they had the X1/10/17 running Downtown, and the X22 running to Midtown off-peak. (I mean, with the X1/10/17 not shown, we don't know how they plan on handling service in Arden Heights or along Gannon Avenue off-peak). 

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There's a lot of discrepancies especially for off peak service with this map.  

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@N6 Limited: As far as I know, it does, but at the same time, a few dollars on the toll to save on B/O run pay, plus gas, etc isn't a big deal.

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My thoughts (aside from the fact that I'm waiting for the local section to be released)

 

The World Financial Center is a big stop on the X7/9/10B. I do think at least one route should serve it. I also think that the lack of ridership between Worth & 23rd is exaggerated. I would have at least a Hylan Blvd route and the X10B run up West Street and Spring/6th (northbound) Broadway/Houston (southbound) to/from 23rd Street. I do absolutely agree, however with the idea of starting buses at Worth Street instead of the WFC.

 

I'm not wild about the lack of a route on Water Street, but from what I've seen, most of the ridership is south of Water/Wall (inclusive). Still, I'd run at least a Hylan Blvd route up there (likely just leave the X8 as-is).

 

I see what they're trying to do with Father Capodanno (trying to match it up with Giffords Lane ridership-wise). The thing is that those buses don't run on Father Capodanno for the ridership, but rather because it's a quicker route to get to points south of Midland. So whatever time people save by waiting a couple of minutes less for a bus, they will likely lose by making more stops on Hylan.

 

The X15 doesn't get much ridership in Great Kills (most people take the X7/8, which BTW I think should retain their routing down Armstrong/Leverett as it avoids traffic on Arthur Kill and better-serves the neighborhood), so I think the diversion to Clarke Avenue does more good than harm, as it better-serves people in that part of Richmondtown.

 

I think they're trying to use the X30 as the main Midtown route for the North Shore. It's the alternative for X42 Midtown passengers in Mariners Harbor, and X14 Midtown passengers in Westerleigh/West Brighton. The problem is that it doesn't go south of 42nd Street in Manhattan.

 

I guess they're really trying to minimize overlap by routing the X42 to Port Richmond. It would serve Midtown passengers on the X14 in that area. As you go further north along Port Richmond Ave, though, it becomes all about the local bus. I don't think there's anymore ridership to be gained by running to Richmond Terrace as opposed to Castleton & Jewett where the depot is.

 

The X19 is the only Downtown route on the deep South Shore, and apparently they want it to stay that way. There should be a Downtown version of the X22. Also, the X23 should probably be routed to Hylan & Craig (and the X22 cut back to the same place) since it would be quicker than doubling back on the X22 via Amboy, Craig, and Hylan.

 

Not sure what to say about the X17J taking over the X17A route in Annadale. Maybe it's a typo.

 

Also, the X31 should end at Windham Loop (arguably, if the X21 is going to be beefed up that much, so should the X17J). 

 

I do hope there's some compromises (such as more frequent weekend service, later spans on the North Shore express routes, and some form of the X10 and/or X17 running overnight)

Lack of ridership between 23rd and Worth? Where is that even coming from?  How anyone could make such a statement is incredible.  Do you see the long lines for the X1 alone at 14th street and Broadway?  I don't support this at all because Staten Islanders have long commutes and they should not be forced onto the subway.  Some express bus riders take the express bus precisely because they want to keep that one seat ride.  Such a restructuring could mean serious changes to express bus service across the city.  Since it isn't clear when this way put out, I'm not too worried about it, but I think it stinks overall.  Goes back to the need to have tiered services in this city to attract riders out of their cars.  Those who don't want to the subway will use cars to get around. It's that simple.

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I was wondering how long it would be before you jumped in lol.

 

But yes, I actually agree with you. They're fudging the numbers as usual to come to their predetermined conclusion. They talk about how for example, the maximum walk added to people's trips is about 5 minutes....Arden & Drumgoogle to Huguenot & Drumgoogle for X19 riders is listed as 21 minutes by Google Transit. (Now I suppose if people used the X24 and transferred to the X19 at Huguenot Avenue that would save them the walk, but now that's a transfer on the Staten Island end of the trip). Same thing with the X15 loop through Richmondtown....those people are getting an extra 10-15 minutes of walking added to their trip.

 

Even on the Manhattan end, shifting the X2 over to 5th Avenue means riders either have to take the (6) down to 23rd (as opposed to having a one-seat ride), or they have to walk west to pick up the bus that will then turn east.

 

The 4% number they're throwing around....I can only believe that during rush hour when they provide minimal service between Worth & 23rd as is. I mean what do you have there, the X1/7/9/10B/12 and that's it. Of course all of the ridership is going to be in Downtown & Midtown if that's where the service is. Like I mentioned, if you run adequate service on the X3/4/7/9, you can eliminate the X1. Maybe you can even justify cutting the X12 back to Worth Street if you keep the X10B. But to eliminate all service completely.....

 

I remember at some of the meetings, they were mentioning that they were looking at systems like NJT where their commuter services center around a couple of terminals in Manhattan (PABT for the buses and Penn Station for the trains), so that explains why they went overkill in basically concentrating their services onto 3 trunk lines in Manhattan (Downtown, Midtown via FDR, Midtown via NJ).

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I was wondering how long it would be before you jumped in lol.

 

But yes, I actually agree with you. They're fudging the numbers as usual to come to their predetermined conclusion. They talk about how for example, the maximum walk added to people's trips is about 5 minutes....Arden & Drumgoogle to Huguenot & Drumgoogle for X19 riders is listed as 21 minutes by Google Transit. (Now I suppose if people used the X24 and transferred to the X19 at Huguenot Avenue that would save them the walk, but now that's a transfer on the Staten Island end of the trip). Same thing with the X15 loop through Richmondtown....those people are getting an extra 10-15 minutes of walking added to their trip.

 

Even on the Manhattan end, shifting the X2 over to 5th Avenue means riders either have to take the (6) down to 23rd (as opposed to having a one-seat ride), or they have to walk west to pick up the bus that will then turn east.

 

The 4% number they're throwing around....I can only believe that during rush hour when they provide minimal service between Worth & 23rd as is. I mean what do you have there, the X1/7/9/10B/12 and that's it. Of course all of the ridership is going to be in Downtown & Midtown if that's where the service is. Like I mentioned, if you run adequate service on the X3/4/7/9, you can eliminate the X1. Maybe you can even justify cutting the X12 back to Worth Street if you keep the X10B. But to eliminate all service completely.....

 

I remember at some of the meetings, they were mentioning that they were looking at systems like NJT where their commuter services center around a couple of terminals in Manhattan (PABT for the buses and Penn Station for the trains), so that explains why they went overkill in basically concentrating their services onto 3 trunk lines in Manhattan (Downtown, Midtown via FDR, Midtown via NJ).

I don't think the X1 can be eliminated entirely, especially not off-peak. I support restructuring, just not this nonsense.  The problem is the (MTA) has sliced into service trying to force people onto the ferry, which has led to people using express buses elsewhere on the island, which is just further exacerbating congestion.  I'm all for having more super express bus routes, but they aren't running them the way that they should. I mean really, if they wanted to do that, they wouldn't be so stingy with such lines as they are.  I never understood why the X42 for example stops running so early (in the AM and PM). It's not like the buses aren't used either.  When I've been able to get them and the X30 was a mess, they were pretty crowded, so I guess I take this study with a grain a salt.  That's why I didn't say anything originally.  Until they figure out how to make the current short branches that they have efficient, I don't see anything changing.

 

That X30 suggestion is also stupid.  Cutting it back to Forest and Brighton would no express bus service for the folks at the Silver Lake Apartments and a long walk to Victory and Clove for bus service.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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When he said eliminate the X1, I think he meant only during rush hours given that he's proposed it before.

Edited by S78 via Hylan

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When he said eliminate the X1, I think he meant only during rush hours given that he's proposed it before.

We both know that the current branches don't allow for any cuts to the X1 during the rush.  They just aren't reliable.  It would take some major restructuring.  I personally would have all X1s starting at 23rd street running down to one of the variants and then running closed door to Staten Island but you would have to beef up the X3 and X4 considerably first.

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It was taken down, and I saved it on the webarchive here: https://web.archive.org/web/20170514121238/http://nymta.civicconnect.com.

The reason it was taken down because you would have lots of SI'ers pissed off.

 

I would have reasons on why not to discontinue any of the routes. Various routes serve different points downtown, Midtown 1 & Midtown 2. Unless you wanna reroute the X7 from the Bridge-Tunnel bypass to NJ, and the X22A to bypass WSX and use NJT to the Exit 12 of the NJT for Tottenville Direct Express. The X4 would be extended from the WFC to Chelsea Piers.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

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I'm not going to try to figure out what's what on a map like that.... This plan/study/presentation lacks specifics & IMO the whole thing is lazily done, so I'm not going to waste too much time opining on it.... All I'm going to say right now (relative to the discussions in this thread) is that I've thought about restructuring SI's express network in the past also.... For starters, too many routes terminate at ETC & the south shore expresses meander like crazy....

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I don't think the X1 can be eliminated entirely, especially not off-peak. I support restructuring, just not this nonsense.  The problem is the (MTA) has sliced into service trying to force people onto the ferry, which has led to people using express buses elsewhere on the island, which is just further exacerbating congestion.  I'm all for having more super express bus routes, but they aren't running them the way that they should. I mean really, if they wanted to do that, they wouldn't be so stingy with such lines as they are.  I never understood why the X42 for example stops running so early (in the AM and PM). It's not like the buses aren't used either.  When I've been able to get them and the X30 was a mess, they were pretty crowded, so I guess I take this study with a grain a salt.  That's why I didn't say anything originally.  Until they figure out how to make the current short branches that they have efficient, I don't see anything changing.

 

That X30 suggestion is also stupid.  Cutting it back to Forest and Brighton would no express bus service for the folks at the Silver Lake Apartments and a long walk to Victory and Clove for bus service.

 

I was only referring to peak service as far as the X1 is concerned. Off-peak, I do think the X1 should run in some form. 

 

As for the X30, I can see where they're coming from with that in terms of ridership (in all my times taking the S62/92 in the morning, I've never seen anybody turn down the local/limited bus to wait for the express bus). But at the same time, it doesn't save them much in terms of deadhead distance, since they're going down towards Clove Road anyway (or if they need to go back to Manhattan to make another trip, they're going down towards the SIE). 

 

As for the short branches being efficient, I don't see what would be inherently unreliable about them. The X17A & X17J generally run frequently and reliably in the morning (and evening for that matter).

 

When he said eliminate the X1, I think he meant only during rush hours given that he's proposed it before.

 

Correct.

 

We both know that the current branches don't allow for any cuts to the X1 during the rush.  They just aren't reliable.  It would take some major restructuring.  I personally would have all X1s starting at 23rd street running down to one of the variants and then running closed door to Staten Island but you would have to beef up the X3 and X4 considerably first.

 

So what's the difference between running closed-door south of Worth Street (because you're not going to sit there with a straight face and tell me that the X3/4 should continue running to the WFC), and just turning off at Houston Street and having an X7 or X9 designation?

 

The reason it was taken down because you would have lots of SI'ers pissed off.

 

I would have reasons on why not to discontinue any of the routes. Various routes serve different points downtown, Midtown 1 & Midtown 2. Unless you wanna reroute the X7 from the Bridge-Tunnel bypass to NJ, and the X22A to bypass WSX and use NJT to the Exit 12 of the NJT for Tottenville Direct Express. The X4 would be extended from the WFC to Chelsea Piers.

 

Staten Islanders aren't trying to get to Chelsea Piers or points on the West Side Highway in any large numbers (and especially after looping through Downtown along Church Street). If you want to have something serving Chelsea Piers, it should be part of a route that continues to Midtown.

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I was only referring to peak service as far as the X1 is concerned. Off-peak, I do think the X1 should run in some form. 

 

As for the X30, I can see where they're coming from with that in terms of ridership (in all my times taking the S62/92 in the morning, I've never seen anybody turn down the local/limited bus to wait for the express bus). But at the same time, it doesn't save them much in terms of deadhead distance, since they're going down towards Clove Road anyway (or if they need to go back to Manhattan to make another trip, they're going down towards the SIE). 

 

As for the short branches being efficient, I don't see what would be inherently unreliable about them. The X17A & X17J generally run frequently and reliably in the morning (and evening for that matter).

 

 

Correct.

 

 

So what's the difference between running closed-door south of Worth Street (because you're not going to sit there with a straight face and tell me that the X3/4 should continue running to the WFC), and just turning off at Houston Street and having an X7 or X9 designation?

 

 

Staten Islanders aren't trying to get to Chelsea Piers or points on the West Side Highway in any large numbers (and especially after looping through Downtown along Church Street). If you want to have something serving Chelsea Piers, it should be part of a route that continues to Midtown.

The branches should run where they're needed, and there is a sizable amount of people that work over there. You could also just have another X1 branch start further south. As it stands now, the main complaint about the X3 and X4 is that they aren't reliable which is why the (MTA) has to run those X1s. As far as I'm concerned, I don't understand why they can't make Downtown service more reliable.  The X17 branches have their moments too, but overall they're much better than the X3 and X4.

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If you're talking about the X3/4 serving the WFC, the overwhelming majority of people take the X7/9 there (well, and the X10B for those looking for the North Shore). Like literally, whenever I see the buses north of Park Place they are completely empty. So yes, the WFC should definitely have express service (I explicitly mentioned that a few posts up) but not on something serving other parts of Downtown.

 

And yeah, it's in their own best interest to run the X3/4 more reliably. They would save so much money if they could divide up the X1's ridership among all of the branches effectively.

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