Express Bus Advocacy Group

[Via Garibaldi 8]

12 hours ago, ViaWaterViaChurch said:

I saw a QM15 the other morning and it made me curious.  Does anyone know why Howard Beach doesn't have 3rd ave and/or downtown service?  It seems like those buses are just as frequent and packed as some of the Union Turnpike buses.  Does anyone have any intel or history about a demand for service?

I forgot to add that the express buses generally serve areas not served by the subway. The  and  lines already serve Downtown, so technically you don't need an express bus doing that. 

[JAzumah]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Canarsie is a black working class neighborhood as is Starrett City.

Canarsie is a middle class neighborhood which has a significant demographic split along Remsen Avenue. It is more black east of Remsen and more white west of Remsen. I would not consider either side working class. I would say that the older white residents retiring hurts ridership on the BM2 and BM5, but the remaining residents who use the express bus find it valuable. The plunge began after the fare went up to $4.

The express bus network began as a conveyance for middle class people to avoid the subway. The majority of that generation is gone, but the city is allowing the crime to resurface on the subway. I feel like a lot of urbanists refuse to acknowledge that the nature of the subway has changed. They don't understand that this environment produces different risks for different people. I could physically deal with someone if I had to, but a lot of people cannot and it creates anxiety for them when they travel in a system that has so many people living in it and hanging out. It is new to have subway crime that rampant in the Midtown core.

I do remember the brochure that highlighted the MTA's wish to discontinue all non-Staten Island express bus service. That was before the brilliant idea of buying MCIs to drive down operating costs. Going from 43 to 57 seats was a big, big difference, particularly in Staten Island.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

46 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

Canarsie is a middle class neighborhood which has a significant demographic split along Remsen Avenue. It is more black east of Remsen and more white west of Remsen. I would not consider either side working class. I would say that the older white residents retiring hurts ridership on the BM2 and BM5, but the remaining residents who use the express bus find it valuable. The plunge began after the fare went up to $4.

The express bus network began as a conveyance for middle class people to avoid the subway. The majority of that generation is gone, but the city is allowing the crime to resurface on the subway. I feel like a lot of urbanists refuse to acknowledge that the nature of the subway has changed. They don't understand that this environment produces different risks for different people. I could physically deal with someone if I had to, but a lot of people cannot and it creates anxiety for them when they travel in a system that has so many people living in it and hanging out. It is new to have subway crime that rampant in the Midtown core.

I do remember the brochure that highlighted the MTA's wish to discontinue all non-Staten Island express bus service. That was before the brilliant idea of buying MCIs to drive down operating costs. Going from 43 to 57 seats was a big, big difference, particularly in Staten Island.

I don't know what you call significant, but the neighborhood overall is over 75% black, with small percentages of other people, so I stand by my comment, as it supported by actual data. It's like calling the white population in the Bronx significant, when it is barely 10% overall, and concentrated in a few neighborhoods such as Riverdale, Woodlawn, Country Club and the like, and even those neighborhoods are becoming increasing less white and more mixed. 

The median income for Canarsie is right in line with a neighborhood like Woodlawn, which is more blue collar. I suppose you can call both middle class, but they have a more working class feel. They aren't white collar neighborhoods like my neighborhood.

I know the whole history about the express bus and how a lot of people used it because of the subway, but different times now. The fact of the matter is it is a necessity in dozens of neighborhoods. You mention Canarsie. There are large swaths of Canarsie that are far away from the subway and the express bus is definitely used there. I took the BM2 once thinking I could transfer and didn't realize the routing it took (I normally opt for the BM3 or BM1 or BM4 if there's an issue with the BM3), but in any case, the riders were all black, so as I said, the neighborhood is definitely majority black and it's not even debatable. 

As I said earlier. These express buses are serving neighborhoods that increasingly more mixed or minority, including Staten Island. There are many Latinos  now living on the South Shore compared to when I lived on Staten Island. There were next to no minorities in many areas of the island. That has definitely changed in the last 10 years or so, so these ridiculous notions of express buses serving lily white neighborhoods is just preposterous. Even in my neighborhood, yes, it is upper middle to upper class, but Riverdale is a natural retirement community, which means we have MANY seniors who take the express bus and I can assure you that some of them are on fixed incomes too. They are not rolling in money. The very high income types in my area tend to gravitate more towards Metro-North. I use it a lot and have been for over 10 years and it is far more white and monied compared to my express buses, so I get tired of these false narratives being posted by people that don't use the express bus or Metro-North or the LIRR for that matter with any regularity.

[JAzumah]

31 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I suppose you can call both middle class, but they have a more working class feel.

A lot of black folks who moved to these areas were government or utility workers in some form. The government pays very well for a lot of jobs that would be considered blue collar. That might explain the difference in feel.
 

33 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That has definitely changed in the last 10 years or so, so these ridiculous notions of express buses serving lily white neighborhoods is just preposterous.

That is true. The NYC Ferry is definitely the least diverse form of transportation that receives subsidy now and its subsidy per passenger is $9.34. Ugh.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

31 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

1. A lot of black folks who moved to these areas were government or utility workers in some form. The government pays very well for a lot of jobs that would be considered blue collar. That might explain the difference in feel.
 

2. That is true. The NYC Ferry is definitely the least diverse form of transportation that receives subsidy now and its subsidy per passenger is $9.34. Ugh.

1. I can agree with that.

2. Even the NYC Ferry is being painted in a way that is just wrong. There are definitely neighborhoods that have benefitted substantially from these new ferries that are far from rich or white. The Rockaways (not just Belle Harbor or Neponsit, but the poor areas of Far Rockaway as well), Red Hook, Soundview, etc. have benefitted substantially from these ferries, and it has allowed many lower income people to ride at just $2.75, the same price as the subway. Just looking at the subsidy per passenger does not tell the full picture. I had to attend many of those meetings for work, and I can tell you that there were many people of color at them that lived in the housing projects that wanted that ferry, especially in Red Hook. We had the Soundview meeting right in the housing projects.

It has allowed several neighborhoods to be far more accessible than they ever were before. That means job opportunities and many other things for dozens of communities. You can't put a price on those things, especially if you live in a neighborhood with limited transportation options. It's one of the few things that I think the de Blasio administration got right. For far too long, many neighborhoods in the outer boroughs have been underserved by good public transportation. This ferry expansion is a step in leveling the playing field. Using the excuse that these modes serve rich, white residents is the modus operandi of people that think in a very narrow way. 

Building subways in this City takes decades and is extremely expensive. We should explore all ways to move more people around and take some of the strain off of our aging subway system. This way of thinking allows many other cities outside of the US to function as they should. There are express buses, ferries and the like and everyone uses everything.

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[GreatOne2k]

It would help if all express buses could have a minimum of 30 minute headways 7 days a week until 9pm, even on Sundays. It would help boost Sunday ridership. Kathy Hochul (NYCT buses) and Eric Adams (MTA Bus) would have to agree to give MTA additional funding specifically for this.  The Riders Alliance is lobbying for additional funding to run subways and local buses 6 minutes during the day, so express buses should get a boost of their own if local bus and subway eventually get a boost.

Extending the BxM4 to Yonkers Raceway would also help to justify boosting service to every 30 minutes most of the day. Extending summer weekend BxM8 service to City Island can also help as well.

[QM1to6Ave]

4 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Today the traffic was really caused by the funeral. I got on the 1:05pm BxM2 bus to Riverdale. Had my groceries with me from Whole Foods and was concerned that some things might spoil because I didn't get off of the bus until after 3:30pm. It took us a good 40 minutes just to get out of Midtown past Central Park South and 6th Av.

Lots of cops drove to the funeral today, so you had blocks and blocks closed off for NYPD and other officers to park. Same way when I went to my office on Friday.

It definitely screwed me over in the morning, but even going back to Queens in the afternoon rush, the trip was a good 15 mins longer than "usual" (which is much longer than it was 2-3 weeks ago), Really awful stop and go on Queens Blvd.

[paulrivera]

3 hours ago, GreatOne2k said:

It would help if all express buses could have a minimum of 30 minute headways 7 days a week until 9pm, even on Sundays. It would help boost Sunday ridership. Kathy Hochul (NYCT buses) and Eric Adams (MTA Bus) would have to agree to give MTA additional funding specifically for this.  The Riders Alliance is lobbying for additional funding to run subways and local buses 6 minutes during the day, so express buses should get a boost of their own if local bus and subway eventually get a boost.

Extending the BxM4 to Yonkers Raceway would also help to justify boosting service to every 30 minutes most of the day. Extending summer weekend BxM8 service to City Island can also help as well.

Selfishly, I'd love an expanded BxM4, but I want to see expanded BM1-5 service first. The BM routes run peak direction only, the midday headways are like every 90 minutes, and they dont run on Sundays at all.

Expanded local bus service would be really helpful for the outer boroughs, and expanded subway service should also come with more maintenance and upkeep funding. What good is having subways run every 6 minutes if there's signal problems and trains having mechanical problems clogging up the line?

[Gotham Bus Co.]

12 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The BM5 addresses that issue, as it runs along Madison Av. Close enough to 3rd Avenue. 

 

But BM5 doesn't help south of Pitkin Avenue (especially the Lindenwood apartments).

[Via Garibaldi 8]

10 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

But BM5 doesn't help south of Pitkin Avenue (especially the Lindenwood apartments).

If people really need the BM5, they can take the QM15 up to Pitkin and transfer. It really serves along Woodhaven as a quicker alternative since it makes fewer stops. I work on 5th Avenue. I can tell you that I walk to my office from 7th or from Lex all the time. The walk is roughly the same either way. Really not that of a deal unless you are far on the East Side. It's 10 minutes to walk to 3rd from 5th and about the same to walk to 6th. I have the times down since I've been doing it so long. The QM15 and BM5 both run across 34th, so another option is just to hop on the local bus for a few stops and grab a Limited Stops bus. There are some QM riders in my group that do this, since the Midtown QMs all do a loop.

Since some QM15 riders south of Pitkin have the option of the  train, they can take that and transfer to the  as well, which I'm sure some people do. 

I believe that express bus service has a place in the overall transit network, but I'm practical. I don't believe in having express buses everywhere for the hell of it either.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[paulrivera]

10 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

If people really need the BM5, they can take the QM15 up to Pitkin and transfer. It really serves along Woodhaven as a quicker alternative since it makes fewer stops.

Taking the QM15 to 5th Avenue and transferring to the BxM18 could work for some, but as far as running time goes I'm not sure how practical that is...

10 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I don't believe in having express buses everywhere for the hell of it either.

Yea. There's a reason places like Jamaica, LIC, and Downtown Brooklyn don't have any express buses.

[JAzumah]

19 hours ago, GreatOne2k said:

Extending the BxM4 to Yonkers Raceway would also help to justify boosting service to every 30 minutes most of the day.

Absolutely...a total no-brainer.
 

19 hours ago, GreatOne2k said:

Extending summer weekend BxM8 service to City Island can also help as well.

Another good idea.
 

20 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Even the NYC Ferry is being painted in a way that is just wrong.

The EDC themselves talked about a 2-3% rise in property values. Even doubling the fare and offering a free transfer would work out better than the current system. This is money that the city didn't have for the regular transit system. It does grind my gears.

[checkmatechamp13]

54 minutes ago, paulrivera said:

Taking the QM15 to 5th Avenue and transferring to the BxM18 could work for some, but as far as running time goes I'm not sure how practical that is...

I'm confused as to what that has to do with 3rd Avenue (Also, bringing up only the BxM18 and not the SIM1C/SIM33C/X27/X28 is more justification for the stupid policy that the BxM18 can't run early heading Downtown, since it implies that there are no other alternatives). There's been cases of people already on the BxM18 getting off at 23rd Street for the subway or local bus, because the bus might have to wait 15 minutes to avoid running early.

[paulrivera]

1 hour ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I'm confused as to what that has to do with 3rd Avenue (Also, bringing up only the BxM18 and not the SIM1C/SIM33C/X27/X28 is more justification for the stupid policy that the BxM18 can't run early heading Downtown, since it implies that there are no other alternatives). There's been cases of people already on the BxM18 getting off at 23rd Street for the subway or local bus, because the bus might have to wait 15 minutes to avoid running early.

Oh, I thought they were talking about heading downtown from a non-BM5 stop, my bad.

Also, I've heard about being able to use the SIM1C/SIM33C/x27/x28 to go from Midtown to Downtown, but I've never seen it as an official written policy...

[checkmatechamp13]

@paulrivera Yeah they need to start publicizing that. That was one of the main points that was emphasized when the SIM redesign started, that B/Os were told to accept intraborough riders connecting to/from other express routes. (It was already somewhat in practice before, but there were reminders over the radio and everything)

Edited February 4, 2022 by checkmatechamp13

[Via Garibaldi 8]

6 hours ago, JAzumah said:

The EDC themselves talked about a 2-3% rise in property values. Even doubling the fare and offering a free transfer would work out better than the current system. This is money that the city didn't have for the regular transit system. It does grind my gears.

What difference does that make for someone living in public housing though in Red Hook or elsewhere that currently benefit from the $2.75 Ferry fare? It's just a misnomer that people like to use when they want to get rid of something to say that only rich people use something so let's get rid of it. Tell that to the people in the poor parts of Far Rockaway that use this or the people in Coney Island that have been fighting for a ferry.

It is public transit, and as I said before, there are people who are truly poor that benefit from paying the cost of a subway ride. That has been shown as a fact. I'm not going to go into the whole cost and subsidizing it because we don't agree. I'm also not going to sit here and act like I'm championing something based on demographics either because I'm not. I'm totally fine with it because the City and the  have failed to provide true transportation options for MANY years for outerborough residents in subway deserts, so let the City subsidize Ferry service and anything else that helps people get around. I don't care if they're rich or poor. They are taking public transit at a time when people of all backgrounds and economic classes are running to drive and clog up the streets, leading to slower commutes for everyone. I'm sure you'd prefer to have subways built out, but outerborough residents have been waiting and waiting and waiting with nothing to show so far but empty promises. Even that Metro-North project keeps getting pushed back because of one thing or another. This ferry system is here NOW, running and serving people who need it NOW as opposed to these pipe dreams that are supposed to happen.

I would much rather people PAYING their fare (I would imagine that the farebeating rates are low on these ferries) AND benefitting from faster commutes as opposed to people farebeating and enduring longer commutes by bus and subway.

 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

8 hours ago, paulrivera said:

Yea. There's a reason places like Jamaica, LIC, and Downtown Brooklyn don't have any express buses.

And where they do run, the reality is they would cause hardships for many people. Take the BxM4 for example. I totally understand why so many people fought both in my group and outside of it to keep it. The Grand Concourse sits on atop valley of sorts for basically its entire length, so if you live off of the Grand Concourse and have any sort of disability or anything, you are schlepping up and down hills to reach the subway, some of which are not fully accessible. When I had jury duty down there for almost a month, I absolutely hated having to navigate those hills to reach the Courthouses, so that BxM4 bus to and from my office was very helpful, as it helped cut down on walking, etc. My area is very hilly as well, but we have very good transit here, which helps to navigate them compared to other hilly areas in the City.

I have seen a few older or disabled people take the BxM4 over the years. They would be negatively impacted by having it axed. The number of petitions and signatures garnered for that line was amazing. All we did in my group was create fliers for each line, noting what the  wanted to do, along with the contact info for elected officials for each line and asked people to get the word out, but word got out fast. When I spoke with the  about that line, it was clear that they had received TONS of negative feedback. Someone noted to me how they had circulated a petition for signatures, and the amount of signatures must've been very high because one elected official even mentioned it recently at a press conference they held on the Grand Concourse.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just saw this ad on the BM3 bus I was waiting for. Obviously this makes things confusing, given what we've been hearing and I will try to get clarification ASAP. 12 rides adds up to $33, but this ad is clearly fitted for the express bus...

Edited February 26, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I was also informed that the chains would begin being removed from express buses today and that has begun. Of note, they will NOT be removed all at once but over time.

[trainfan22]

3 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Just saw this ad on the BM3 bus I was waiting for. Obviously this makes things confusing, given what we've been hearing and I will try to get clarification ASAP. 12 rides adds up to $33, but this ad is clearly fitted for the express bus...

I could have swore I seen an "Take this bus for 2.75" ad on an express bus before. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

12 minutes ago, trainfan22 said:

I could have swore I seen an "Take this bus for 2.75" ad on an express bus before. 

Yeah well this ad makes things very confusing since supposedly, fare capping doesn't apply to express bus riders. If anything, it should be on the local buses and subways. So far no one wants to explain where this came from. I have a few people in my group that I tag that can't explain it either, so I will speak to my contacts about it. Someone asleep at the wheel...

Edited February 26, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

33 minutes ago, trainfan22 said:

I could have swore I seen an "Take this bus for 2.75" ad on an express bus before. 

Yeah, quite a few buses have those. I've seen them various times on the CP Prevosts.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

30 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Yeah, quite a few buses have those. I've seen them various times on the CP Prevosts.

I only realized it today because I was at the stop waiting for the BM3 to start up to head back to the City and happened to notice the ad. 

[QM1to6Ave]

2 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Yeah, quite a few buses have those. I've seen them various times on the CP Prevosts.

 

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I only realized it today because I was at the stop waiting for the BM3 to start up to head back to the City and happened to notice the ad. 

Given how siloed things are at the MTA, I'm sure no one who designs or prints the ads had any idea whatsoever that it doesn't apply to express buses. And the workers who install them, I'm sure, could not give a rat's a** about what they are installing LOL

I'll also add, I'm seeing a video ad of "leave the math to us. Your 13th ride is free" on a CP Prevost's TV screens right now. Besides for needing to specify that it is only for local bus and subway, the flashing colors are very annoying.

 

@Via Garibaldi 8 I know we've discussed before, but any word if the Saturday night run times on CP exp lines will ever get brought down to 15 mins from 25 mins for the stops in Manhattan? I've been taking the QM5/6 recently most Saturday nights, and it is so painful when the bus drags through Manhattan with traffic flying around us.

Edited February 27, 2022 by QM1to6Ave

[Via Garibaldi 8]

39 minutes ago, QM1to6Ave said:

 

Given how siloed things are at the MTA, I'm sure no one who designs or prints the ads had any idea whatsoever that it doesn't apply to express buses. And the workers who install them, I'm sure, could not give a rat's a** about what they are installing LOL

I'll also add, I'm seeing a video ad of "leave the math to us. Your 13th ride is free" on a CP Prevost's TV screens right now. Besides for needing to specify that it is only for local bus and subway, the flashing colors are very annoying.

 

@Via Garibaldi 8 I know we've discussed before, but any word if the Saturday night run times on CP exp lines will ever get brought down to 15 mins from 25 mins for the stops in Manhattan? I've been taking the QM5/6 recently most Saturday nights, and it is so painful when the bus drags through Manhattan with traffic flying around us.

Yes, I discussed this whole OMNY fare capping fiasco with the other express bus advocate I work with and will have a conference call about this next week. Someone clearly dropped the ball. They try to have a one size fits all approach that just doesn't work.

As for the runtimes, when I discussed some of the differences in the QM runtimes with one of the Senior Planners at a meeting, it seemed that there were other reasons why they couldn't change the schedules. In fact they made the routing change I asked for with the QM2, QM3 and QM20 (partially anyway), but the runtimes, he never committed to being able to do anything about. He didn't say exactly why, but his answer led me to believe that there was some contractual agreement with the former private lines carried over to Bus or it's a union issue. When I asked the  to change some runtimes for a few of the SIM lines, the  had to sit down with the union and they had to agree to the reduced runtimes, so the same thing would apply here. Now, I will definitely ask and see what they say, but even for the smallest of changes, it can be a process. 

Sometimes the drivers will start to complain if they are finishing trips late and can't make their next trip. When that happens, the union may ask for more runtime. This is something they negotiate and sometimes the  pushes back, which happened recently with some other express bus lines where runtimes were an issue.

But yeah, thinking about it further, it is likely the union issue. Different QM lines out of different depots and different unions. If they don't do anything soon, then I would imagine they'll try to fix it with the union if and when they implement the Queens Redesign for sure. This was definitely an issue out on Staten Island. 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8