CBTC - General Discussion

[Jericho]

5 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Um, is it safe to be riding on QBL trains with all these issues I keep hearing about? At least once for the past 4 weeks there's been some type of mass signal malfunction that basically shut down the whole line.

 

Safe to ride? Yes, if any errors occur, the train's brakes will go into emergency. If you mean safe from delays, it seems to be getting better, but like any other line, you never know.

5 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Timers, train traffic, passenger load and terminal capacity are the real restraints in my opinion. . Without a wholesale rebuild of the signal system in lower Manhattan from Bowling Green n/b I, personally, can’t see a CBTC installation taking place until north of the Brooklyn Bridge station. There’s a space between Fulton and the Bridge that might hold one train. My take. Carry on.

I've been scratching my head trying to understand what you're saying here. But CBTC itself is a rebuild of the signal system. Specifically it removes a lot of signals including timers. Home and their approach signals remain in place with automatics sprinkled here and there. This can be seen between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza on the express and the 53rd St Tube, and of course the Lima and 7 line.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Jericho

[Trainmaster5]

1 hour ago, Jericho said:

Safe to ride? Yes, if any errors occur, the train's brakes will go into emergency. If you mean safe from delays, it seems to be getting better, but like any other line, you never know.

I've been scratching my head trying to understand what you're saying here. But CBTC itself is a rebuild of the signal system. Specifically it removes a lot of signals including timers. Home and their approach signals remain in place with automatics sprinkled here and there. This can be seen between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza on the express and the 53rd St Tube, and of course the Lima and 7 line.

The mistake that many people are making is that CBTC speeds up the system when actually the premise is that trains can operate closer together with the newer system. The trains aren’t going any faster it’s just the spacing of the signals making it appear that way. In my experience it’s the variants that I mentioned that determine the running times of the intervals throughout the day. Hope this makes sense. That’s why specifically mentioned the Lexington Avenue line.  Carry on.

[Jericho]

41 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

The mistake that many people are making is that CBTC speeds up the system when actually the premise is that trains can operate closer together with the newer system. The trains aren’t going any faster it’s just the spacing of the signals making it appear that way. In my experience it’s the variants that I mentioned that determine the running times of the intervals throughout the day. Hope this makes sense. That’s why specifically mentioned the Lexington Avenue line.  Carry on.

I am aware of the conga line that is the Lexington Express, but how it has to do with what has changed with the L, 7, and now the QBL is rather irrelevant. Plus, the way you talk about it, it doesn't sound like you're CBTC qualified.

On the Lima, not operating in automatic is frowned upon because the trains behind you can catch up as you're operating slower manually than the computer. RCC will ask why you're not operating automatically. On the QBL, there are certainly train operators who don't trust the new system and operate slower than allowed. I've at least operated on the L before to understand the annoying things it does and its limitations. However for many QBL train operators it's their first time and it takes time to get used to it. I myself operate as if we still had the old signals in place, because I get to the terminals even more faster than before when I do wrap it up in CBTC.

In the end when they put it together properly, the running time for the QBL lines will be cut whether we like it or not.

[Trainmaster5]

15 hours ago, Jericho said:

I am aware of the conga line that is the Lexington Express, but how it has to do with what has changed with the L, 7, and now the QBL is rather irrelevant. Plus, the way you talk about it, it doesn't sound like you're CBTC qualified.

On the Lima, not operating in automatic is frowned upon because the trains behind you can catch up as you're operating slower manually than the computer. RCC will ask why you're not operating automatically. On the QBL, there are certainly train operators who don't trust the new system and operate slower than allowed. I've at least operated on the L before to understand the annoying things it does and its limitations. However for many QBL train operators it's their first time and it takes time to get used to it. I myself operate as if we still had the old signals in place, because I get to the terminals even more faster than before when I do wrap it up in CBTC.

In the end when they put it together properly, the running time for the QBL lines will be cut whether we like it or not.

I'm definitely not CBTC qualified having been an A division C/R and M/M for 30 years and retired for over a decade 😳. The point I was trying to get across was that the ATS/ CBTC ideas were first released to the RTO folks in O&P and scheduling was that it wasn't a magic bullet for speeding up all service . Remember that early in my career ,  even before the GOH Redbird fleet,  our trains were faster. The accidents and the removal of the inshot valves to compensate for the old signal system slowed everything down. The reason why many of my mentors were skeptical about parts of the proposal was the rebuild of the signal system in the location that I referenced. The existing plant,  switches,  signals, and the infrastructure of the 100+ year old system in that area was determined to be an impediment compared to what was in the works for the Canarsie and the subsequent Flushing systems. I'm all for speeding up the system safely. The last General Superintendent I had in the IRT used to tease me about how little cab time I spent daily. When my mentors pointed out that I spent even less back in the day he understood where I was coming from. I'm pointing out what my mentors in O&P and scheduling showed us about all the factors involved in running time and scheduling. No argument intended.  Carry on. 

[RTOMan]

On 6/18/2021 at 3:12 PM, Jericho said:

You must operate during rush hour. There's parts where you can go up to 47-48 and I've entered CTL on 4 at 30-35. It's all about threading the red line.

Edit: The best change I definitely like is going up the hill on 4 from Woodhaven to 67th Ave at 48 and only slowing down to 42 at the top as oppose to maybe 32 in bypass.

Yes i do actually too many bloodclott trains...

In BYPASS you can Fly into CTL on 4 track you cannnot do that in CBTC...

[RTOMan]

On 6/20/2021 at 6:54 AM, Jericho said:

In the end when they put it together properly, the running time for the QBL lines will be cut whether we like it or not.

Bingo when it runs smooth it will be harmony.. Seen that when i posted on the Larry.

I say give it a year maybe less..

In Queens..

I wont get into Brooklyn Part of it yet...

Or 8th Ave....

Edited June 22, 2021 by RTOMan

[RTOMan]

On 6/20/2021 at 11:08 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

I'm definitely not CBTC qualified having been an A division C/R and M/M for 30 years and retired for over a decade 😳. The point I was trying to get across was that the ATS/ CBTC ideas were first released to the RTO folks in O&P and scheduling was that it wasn't a magic bullet for speeding up all service . Remember that early in my career ,  even before the GOH Redbird fleet,  our trains were faster. The accidents and the removal of the inshot valves to compensate for the old signal system slowed everything down. The reason why many of my mentors were skeptical about parts of the proposal was the rebuild of the signal system in the location that I referenced. The existing plant,  switches,  signals, and the infrastructure of the 100+ year old system in that area was determined to be an impediment compared to what was in the works for the Canarsie and the subsequent Flushing systems. I'm all for speeding up the system safely. The last General Superintendent I had in the IRT used to tease me about how little cab time I spent daily. When my mentors pointed out that I spent even less back in the day he understood where I was coming from. I'm pointing out what my mentors in O&P and scheduling showed us about all the factors involved in running time and scheduling. No argument intended.  Carry on. 

They had this "Idea" in those heads in the 90s..

They went overseas seen how great those systems worked got fed a line of trash "Oh it can work here"..

It can but not without Major Modifications like putting square Pegs in round holes...

[Jericho]

2 hours ago, RTOMan said:

Yes i do actually too many bloodclott trains...

In BYPASS you can Fly into CTL on 4 track you cannnot do that in CBTC...

Yea, that's true and? I've said in the post you quoted that I can bring it to 35 if I wanted to into CTL, so clearly I understood that. But if I am getting more speed running between the two stations then I'm not really going to complain losing the ability to go 45+ into CTL. Especially if it means climbing that hill to 67th Ave and going down to 32-34 MPH.

[RTOMan]

33 minutes ago, Jericho said:

Yea, that's true and? I've said in the post you quoted that I can bring it to 35 if I wanted to into CTL, so clearly I understood that. But if I am getting more speed running between the two stations then I'm not really going to complain losing the ability to go 45+ into CTL. Especially if it means climbing that hill to 67th Ave and going down to 32-34 MPH.

Hey whoa Slow down youngun... 😄

I got 19 years down here im past complaining i just do my job.😉

You are misunderstanding what im saying.

I could care less about how fast the train is going or the speed in areas as long as i follow them to the rule..

What's  important is getting the train safety from point A to Point B without having to talk to RCC when my day or a trip is done.

As well as giving the folks on the train i operate a smooth ride...

How or what's the speed for areas comes with experience to the point where you can feel how fast you are doing without even looking at that speedometer....

How long you been on the F Line?

Me its been four years now.

[RTOMan]

CBTC in full effect 24/7 now...

From 21st to Kew on the Fox..

50th street to Kew on the Echo..

47-50 to CTL on the Mikey 

Queens Plaza to CTL on the Romeo..

They "Fixed" the Zone Controller at CTL..

Lets see how it works with the full capacity of trains on Tuesday..

[RR503]

On 6/20/2021 at 5:18 AM, Trainmaster5 said:

The mistake that many people are making is that CBTC speeds up the system when actually the premise is that trains can operate closer together with the newer system. The trains aren’t going any faster it’s just the spacing of the signals making it appear that way. In my experience it’s the variants that I mentioned that determine the running times of the intervals throughout the day. Hope this makes sense. That’s why specifically mentioned the Lexington Avenue line.  Carry on.

You actually do get sped up! The NTTs come programmed with two acceleration curves: the "cold curve" for use on fixed block portions of the system, and the "hot curve," for use in CBTC territory. During peak hours, you're going to be gaining as much from higher quality close-in operations as you are from faster speeds, but the difference is significant. 

[Trainmaster5]

15 hours ago, RR503 said:

You actually do get sped up! The NTTs come programmed with two acceleration curves: the "cold curve" for use on fixed block portions of the system, and the "hot curve," for use in CBTC territory. During peak hours, you're going to be gaining as much from higher quality close-in operations as you are from faster speeds, but the difference is significant. 

Good to know that. My argument was specifically about the lower Lexington line between Borough Hall n/b to Brooklyn Bridge. Let's say 16:50-17:20. For most of my time on the road I passed through the area n/b coming from Utica,  Flatbush, or looping around the ferry. 2 minute intervals from Utica on the with my rabbi, his coworker from scheduling, and sometimes the CTO, riding with me to East 180th,the CTO, or Dyre. The passenger flow in that particular time frame was the biggest problem in my experience. Leaving the Bridge I'd be on my leader's tail to Grand Central daily.  The that left the Bridge with me would arrive at Grand Central with me almost every day. The CTO and my rabbi understood the problem I'm trying to get across. Can CBTC change that?  Just asking. BTW welcome back,  stranger.  Carry on, 

[bulk88]

41 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

The passenger flow in that particular time frame was the biggest problem in my experience. Leaving the Bridge I'd be on my leader's tail to Grand Central daily.  The that left the Bridge with me would arrive at Grand Central with me almost every day. The CTO and my rabbi understood the problem I'm trying to get across. Can CBTC change that?  Just asking. BTW welcome back,  stranger.  Carry on, 

Lex has atleast 10 minutes of programmed holds/recovery time for OTP. SB 6 at 59, SB 6 at 42. Cross platform transfer holds at 42. 1-4 minutes the SB 5 is held at 138 Street/GC on the curve. SB 5 trains, to keep the 4/5 Lex exp cadence perfect, SB 5 trains practically come 10 MINUTES EARLY and sit and wait on that 138 street curve. SB E at 50 also has a programmed hold. Atleast 2 minutes each time, sometimes 7 or 10, yes SEVEN minutes Ive sat there. The E was still ONTIME!!!! to 42 PABT by trip planner and GTFS. If all programmed holds at 42 NB were eliminated, you would NOT have a 6 and 4 take the same runtime.

Its kindda random where the SB F has a programmed hold. 2017 era the hold was at briarwood SB each time even though E is express. 2019 it was at Union on the local. Post CBTC the hold is at 75 ave (seems more sane its right at the merge to avoid "operator variability" between Sutphin and 75 Ave. Post CBTC there is a NB F hold on the ramp from 63 line to QBL. Prior to CBTC I never once saw an NB F get a hold. NB M at 53/5 seems to have a programmed hold in the interlocking between 47 rock and 53/5. SB E has a programmed hold at Queens Plaza for M trains I think.

Someone wrote LIRR at NYP has a similar padding, trains arriving 9 to 15 minutes EARLY at NYP between jamaica and NYP.

[Jsunflyguy]

38 minutes ago, bulk88 said:

 

Someone wrote LIRR at NYP has a similar padding, trains arriving 9 to 15 minutes EARLY at NYP between jamaica and NYP.

Someone? 

 

15 minutes?

 

NYK<->JAM is timed at 20 minutes. I'll let you judge if getting in 15 minutes early makes sense. As Ive written several times in the community NYK is timed so that two tubes can be closed outside of peak without causing a late train. With the exception of the Acela trains are timed for 10 minutes for Penn-Harold. 5 minutes hot is about the most you can hope for coming into Penn excluding flagging stops.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Jsunflyguy

[Trainmaster5]

14 minutes ago, Jsunflyguy said:

Someone? 

 

15 minutes?

 

NYK<->JAM is timed at 20 minutes. I'll let you judge if getting in 15 minutes early makes sense. As Ive written several times in the community NYK is timed so that two tubes can be closed outside of peak without causing a late train. With the exception of the Acela trains are timed for 10 minutes for Penn-Harold. 5 minutes hot is about the most you can hope for coming into Penn excluding flagging stops.

Love your reply. I don't know where some of these numbers are originating but I've seen them on the subway side also. For years my partner and I had a job that gave us 55 minutes from Dyre Avenue to Bowling Green on the . New signal system installed in the Bronx and we would be on time at the Grand Concourse but 5 minutes late 2 stops away at 125th Street. We had a supervisor working in the RCC who monitored our train throughout the Bronx and saw our complaint but we were constantly called late because it now took us 63 minutes to make that 55 minute trip. We told our folks in scheduling what was happening. The next pick our rabbi and his team in operation and planning created a new job for us so that we would stop complaining to the supervision at the RCC handling  Lexington Avenue. Instead of admitting the problem with the new signal system they actually added the 8 minutes to the scheduled running time of our old job. The sad part was that the local supervision along Lexington Avenue and our regular riders were aware of the problem. I now see numbers on the forums that I take with a grain of salt. My experience. Carry on. 

[bobtehpanda]

On 7/12/2021 at 12:13 AM, Jsunflyguy said:

Someone? 

 

15 minutes?

 

NYK<->JAM is timed at 20 minutes. I'll let you judge if getting in 15 minutes early makes sense. As Ive written several times in the community NYK is timed so that two tubes can be closed outside of peak without causing a late train. With the exception of the Acela trains are timed for 10 minutes for Penn-Harold. 5 minutes hot is about the most you can hope for coming into Penn excluding flagging stops.

 

On 7/12/2021 at 1:02 AM, Trainmaster5 said:

Love your reply. I don't know where some of these numbers are originating but I've seen them on the subway side also. For years my partner and I had a job that gave us 55 minutes from Dyre Avenue to Bowling Green on the . New signal system installed in the Bronx and we would be on time at the Grand Concourse but 5 minutes late 2 stops away at 125th Street. We had a supervisor working in the RCC who monitored our train throughout the Bronx and saw our complaint but we were constantly called late because it now took us 63 minutes to make that 55 minute trip. We told our folks in scheduling what was happening. The next pick our rabbi and his team in operation and planning created a new job for us so that we would stop complaining to the supervision at the RCC handling  Lexington Avenue. Instead of admitting the problem with the new signal system they actually added the 8 minutes to the scheduled running time of our old job. The sad part was that the local supervision along Lexington Avenue and our regular riders were aware of the problem. I now see numbers on the forums that I take with a grain of salt. My experience. Carry on. 

So I've seen this assertion before but not usually as an insinuation that it's just the padding. My understanding is that the switches around Penn and Jamaica are very slow by international standards (this northjersey.com article says 15MPH), and speeding up that slowest part of the journey right before the station with more modern switches and possibly a simpler interlocking layout would provide big wins. 

Now, I'm not that much of a train nerd to say that is or isn't true, but there's some degree of truth to it, since one of the big East Side Access adjacent projects is the redoing of Jamaica's interlocking which will supposedly offer 40% more capacity or something, and is why the Atlantic Branch will terminate at the new Jamaica platform. I haven't heard anything about that project recently, though.

[RestrictOnTheHanger]

Looking out the RFW today I got to see firsthand how much closer trains can get to each other on QBL with CBTC active. On the n/b express track approaching Roosevelt there is a lot more leeway to approach a train standing in the station at a higher (but still safe) speed than with the station timers. As we approached, the only signal that was red was the one at the beginning of the platform, all the other ones thru the switch just before were flashing green. 

Also, between Court Sq-Queens Plaza and Queens Plaza - 36th interlocking there were some solid green and solid yellow automatics, but the Queens Plaza homeball itself was flashing green. Why does that happen if CBTC is cut in?

[Calvin]

https://www.amny.com/news/mta-inspector-blames-queens-signal-outage-new-system/?fbclid=IwAR1tiBlCreBoR0DhGaj30wj8KdZrVeV0GOPsNRW3SfS-PFiGCi-4hvcuYCM#.YQDJYbayIYU.facebook

More with the frustration on the Queens Blvd portage 

[QM1to6Ave]

I know this has been discussed before, but can someone remind me how work trains and other non-CBTC trains operate on the ?

[Jericho]

8 hours ago, RestrictOnTheHanger said:

Also, between Court Sq-Queens Plaza and Queens Plaza - 36th interlocking there were some solid green and solid yellow automatics, but the Queens Plaza homeball itself was flashing green. Why does that happen if CBTC is cut in?

Those are the old signals that are slated to be removed or replaced.

 

2 hours ago, QM1to6Ave said:

I know this has been discussed before, but can someone remind me how work trains and other non-CBTC trains operate on the ?

As usual, normal wayside signals. Except since there's less of them, the train behind is held back until the block is clear which can take a bit.

[bobtehpanda]

Just some meta news. https://www.railjournal.com/financial/hitachi-rail-to-acquire-thales-ground-transportation-systems/

Thales is one of the suppliers for CBTC, no?

[bulk88]

On 8/6/2021 at 11:19 AM, bobtehpanda said:

Thales is one of the suppliers for CBTC, no?

It is on paper but it's meaningless. Thales built the 7 line CBTC, but lost the bid for Div B/QBL to Siemens. Because of MTA bidding nonsense, Thales and Mitsubishi sell Siemens equipment at a markup to MTA as grey area second source vendors. Thales also pays multi decade NYC based maybe Italian consultants as no bid contracts since those contractors need some laundering of funds or to make the illusion of fake marketplace. "Authorized supplier" is 1 company in list in the "invitation to bid" . Or "pre qualified consultants" . In any case thales, design wise, will hav e nothing to do with nyc Cbtc going forward IMO.

[Vulturious]

So apparently, I heard from someone who is a T/O that there are CBTC transceivers on the platform at Mott Av. Would that mean CBTC is going to the Rockaways next?

[RTOMan]

5 hours ago, Vulturious said:

So apparently, I heard from someone who is a T/O that there are CBTC transceivers on the platform at Mott Av. Would that mean CBTC is going to the Rockaways next?

The Rockaways along Fulton Street Lefferts Blvd..

As well as 8th ave.. Not sure if its past 50th street..

[Railfanner Mario]

On 8/11/2021 at 2:54 AM, Vulturious said:

So apparently, I heard from someone who is a T/O that there are CBTC transceivers on the platform at Mott Av. Would that mean CBTC is going to the Rockaways next?

South Past 59 St Yes. In regarding to the Rockaways idk (it can be if the MTA were to do that if they want to)