CBTC - General Discussion

[bobtehpanda]

On 3/11/2020 at 10:39 AM, Lex said:

Because he's the one to blame for it...

 

59 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

The City Council Speaker makes transportation policy in this City now? That’s news to me. Wouldn’t de Blasio and his DOT commissioner, Polly Trottenberg, be to blame for that since it’s DOT that makes the City’s transportation policy? Even then, I wouldn’t say they’re entirely to blame for why we’re expanding the subway slower than a snail’s pace. What about absurdly high construction costs?

Personally, I wouldn't engage with people who have a history of spewing nonsense.

Some characters on these forums are best off left alone.

[happy283]

As far as transfers to Jamaica and cars that will be running on the QBL when CBTC begins. It is obvious that the  will be full 10 car R160s running out of Jamaica yard some of which came from CI. In regards to the , will the  and  share ENYs CBTC fleet of R143s and R160s making the  partially R143s as well as R160s?

[Maxwell179]

15 hours ago, happy283 said:

As far as transfers to Jamaica and cars that will be running on the QBL when CBTC begins. It is obvious that the  will be full 10 car R160s running out of Jamaica yard some of which came from CI. In regards to the , will the  and  share ENYs CBTC fleet of R143s and R160s making the  partially R143s as well as R160s?

I think someone said before that they can’t share because the two kinds of cbtc aren’t compatible 

[happy283]

6 hours ago, Maxwell179 said:

I think someone said before that they can’t share because the two kinds of cbtc aren’t compatible 

What two kinds? This is the first I'm hearing of this.

[Lex]

22 minutes ago, happy283 said:

What two kinds? This is the first I'm hearing of this.

The R143s used for  service have an earlier generation of equipment than what is being used for more recent projects, which includes Queens Boulevard. Their replacements won't have this issue, but it's far too early to talk in-depth about that matter.

It may extend to the R160s used for  service, but I'm not certain. Someone else will have to answer that.

[SimplyMyself]

The MTA is now planning to install CBTC equipment on the ENTIRE R160 fleet. Smart move.

Edited June 20, 2020 by SimplyMyself
small typo

[Lawrence St]

On 3/17/2020 at 6:43 PM, happy283 said:

What two kinds? This is the first I'm hearing of this.

Since the was the first CBTC project, it uses an old system that does not want to use on other lines since there is no sufficient back up signaling system in case CBTC goes down, if memory serves me correctly. The uses a newer and improved version of CBTC by another company that has a backup signal system installed.

However, this does raise a question as to what will do with the Carnarsie-CBTC equipped R160's since they won't be compatible with QBL-CBTC.

[RestrictOnTheHanger]

36 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

However, this does raise a question as to what will do with the Carnarsie-CBTC equipped R160's since they won't be compatible with QBL-CBTC.

The potential overlap is limited to potential sharing of the 8 car 160s between the and . Does the currently have any ENY based 160s?

[Lex]

29 minutes ago, RestrictOnTheHanger said:

The potential overlap is limited to potential sharing of the 8 car 160s between the and . Does the currently have any ENY based 160s?

As far as storage goes, Fresh Pond is like Canarsie, which serves as an ancillary facility for East New York.

Make of that what you will.

[Lawrence St]

31 minutes ago, RestrictOnTheHanger said:

The potential overlap is limited to potential sharing of the 8 car 160s between the and . Does the currently have any ENY based 160s?

To my understanding the shares the R160 fleet from Fresh Pond Yard and ENY, and ENY has the Canarsie-CBTC equipped R143's and R160's.

And the has ran R143's before recently.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Lawrence St

[Around the Horn]

10 minutes ago, RestrictOnTheHanger said:

The potential overlap is limited to potential sharing of the 8 car 160s between the and . Does the currently have any ENY based 160s?

The CBTC R160s were fairly common on weekdays and occasionally on the weekend  to 96th Street. You're more likely to see one on the  however.

 

Just now, Lawrence St said:

To my understanding the shares the R160 fleet from Fresh Pond Yard and ENY, and ENY has the Canarsie-CBTC equipped R143's and R160's.

And the has ran R143's before recently.

well... that R143 was from the  to Metropolitan G.O. the weekend before 

[Lawrence St]

1 minute ago, Around the Horn said:

The CBTC R160s were fairly common on weekdays and occasionally on the weekend  to 96th Street. You're more likely to see one on the  however.

 

well... that R143 was from the  to Metropolitan G.O. the weekend before 

The R143 I am thinking about is the one that ran the full route, I think the had a G.O that day.

[Vulturious]

So this is a picture I found online, would this basically confirm that NTT's need to be running on the  soon? If so, would that mean that all the R160's that still remain at Coney Island Yard are going to be used for the  and have the 's equipment used for ,  and ? Obviously, not the  since they usually get extended into the Bronx used as storage in Concourse. Also, would this also confirm that R211's would be assigned on the  as well?

Edited October 6, 2020 by Vulturious

[darkstar8983]

6 hours ago, Vulturious said:

So this is a picture I found online, would this basically confirm that NTT's need to be running on the  soon? If so, would that mean that all the R160's that still remain at Coney Island Yard are going to be used for the  and have the 's equipment used for ,  and ? Obviously, not the  since they usually get extended into the Bronx used as storage in Concourse. Also, would this also confirm that R211's would be assigned on the  as well?

Not necessarily. What likely could be going on is that CBTC is going on just south of Church Av (right after the  train diverges into the storage facility) and the  would just cross back over just north of Ditmas Avenue.

 

correct me if I’m wrong but the CBTC installation for the  route is only going to be from Kew Gardens/Union Turnpike (eventually Jamaica 179 St) to 21 St Queensbridge, and then Just south of Church Av to West 8 St

Edited October 6, 2020 by darkstar8983

[danielhg121]

3 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

Not necessarily. What likely could be going on is that CBTC is going on just south of Church Av (right after the  train diverges into the storage facility) and the  would just cross back over just north of Ditmas Avenue.

 

correct me if I’m wrong but the CBTC installation for the  route is only going to be from Kew Gardens/Union Turnpike (eventually Jamaica 179 St) to 21 St Queensbridge, and then Just south of Church Av to West 8 St

Do the NIS deadhead  trains from CIY need to have CBTC installed as well?

[darkstar8983]

1 hour ago, danielhg121 said:

Do the NIS deadhead  trains from CIY need to have CBTC installed as well?

Thats actually a good question. I assumed that non NTT trains could still travel through the line, just like a work train would normally do in CBTC territory on the  and  lines, but the exact nature of the protocols necessary to facilitate such moves I don't really know. It is important, now that you are going to have CBTC-only lines (Queens Blvd, eventually 8 Av) and the potential for reroutes of non-CBTC rolling stock in the event of a disruption.

[Vulturious]

6 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

Not necessarily. What likely could be going on is that CBTC is going on just south of Church Av (right after the  train diverges into the storage facility) and the  would just cross back over just north of Ditmas Avenue.

 

correct me if I’m wrong but the CBTC installation for the  route is only going to be from Kew Gardens/Union Turnpike (eventually Jamaica 179 St) to 21 St Queensbridge, and then Just south of Church Av to West 8 St

54 minutes ago, darkstar8983 said:

Thats actually a good question. I assumed that non NTT trains could still travel through the line, just like a work train would normally do in CBTC territory on the  and  lines, but the exact nature of the protocols necessary to facilitate such moves I don't really know. It is important, now that you are going to have CBTC-only lines (Queens Blvd, eventually 8 Av) and the potential for reroutes of non-CBTC rolling stock in the event of a disruption.

I don't remember hearing anything about Kew Gardens/Union Turnpike getting CBTC, then again I could be wrong, but you are right about CBTC south of Church to West 8th. However, even with that, that would mean they would have to switch off CBTC in order to allow deadheading  trains through to Coney Island, at least from what I've heard about how they allow non-CBTC trains through. I don't know exactly how frequent NIS  trains deadheading to CIY are since I don't live by the  to really know nor have I taken the  long enough to really know either, but I think if it does happen occasionally, I think that would just be a hassle to turn CBTC off and on again just for that.

 

[RTOMan]

CBTC Will be in effect from Kew To 21st street or Queens Plaza when ready..

Right now the CBTC test train is only running in full CBTC mode from Kew to Roosevelt..

Two trains per day are running in a form of CBTC...

Most G lay Ups are along B3/4 track so that wont effect any CBTC train on B1 or B2 track...

[Vulturious]

6 minutes ago, RTOMan said:

CBTC Will be in effect from Kew To 21st street or Queens Plaza when ready..

Right now the CBTC test train is only running in full CBTC mode from Kew to Roosevelt..

Two trains per day are running in a form of CBTC...

Most G lay Ups are along B3/4 track so that wont effect any CBTC train on B1 or B2 track...

My bad, I did not read the last bit about 21st St-Queensbridge, I thought he meant towards Jamaica which I wasn't aware of. Although, I am aware of QBL CBTC, but when you say B3/4 tracks, you mean the layup tracks at Church Avenue? Even then, they still need a way to get to Coney Island regardless.

[RTOMan]

12 minutes ago, Vulturious said:

My bad, I did not read the last bit about 21st St-Queensbridge, I thought he meant towards Jamaica which I wasn't aware of. Although, I am aware of QBL CBTC, but when you say B3/4 tracks, you mean the layup tracks at Church Avenue? Even then, they still need a way to get to Coney Island regardless.

B3/4 track=Middle track

[bulk88]

On 10/6/2020 at 11:08 AM, darkstar8983 said:

Thats actually a good question. I assumed that non NTT trains could still travel through the line, just like a work train would normally do in CBTC territory on the  and  lines, but the exact nature of the protocols necessary to facilitate such moves I don't really know. It is important, now that you are going to have CBTC-only lines (Queens Blvd, eventually 8 Av) and the potential for reroutes of non-CBTC rolling stock in the event of a disruption.

All CBTC lines allow non-NTT trains to use them in AWS mode, the legacy automatic block system. Its just a severe capacity restriction to have an AWS train on the line unless its 20 min headways overnight.  AWS is automatic block, but 1-2 mile long blocks. 1 signal head ever 2-3 stations or only at interlocks. Similar to WMATA's wayside signals which is red (no go), flashing white (proceed only if cab signals workings), white (clear to next interlocking, no cab signals needed).

QBL CBTC is vendor independent and has a vendor independent (in theory lol) SCADA system. 7 and L's dispatching software/user interface is specific to Thales and Siemens. Minor radio packets, axle counter, and accel/brake curve calculations (in terms of staying to timetable in ATO) differences exist between 7/L/QBL but nothing about QBL's design prohibits trains from being OTA back compatible onto 7/L's protocol. 

 

L uses a higher resolution but less reliable (MTBF) axle/rotation counter and less bailses. 7 has a cheaper axle counterbut higher MTBF and more bailses to recalibrate it. QBL will use 7 line's high bailse count design.

Edited October 7, 2020 by bulk88
design diffs

[Around the Horn]

Just now, bulk88 said:

 Minor radio packets, axle counter, and accel/brake curve calculations (in terms of staying to timetable in ATO) differences exist between 7/L/QBL but nothing about QBL's design prohibits trains from being OTA back compatible onto 7/L's protocol. 

So if I'm understanding this correctly, a train equipped for QBL can theoretically run on the 7/L's CBTC but a train equipped for the 7/L can't run on QBL?

[bulk88]

7 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

So if I'm understanding this correctly, a train equipped for QBL can theoretically run on the 7/L's CBTC but a train equipped for the 7/L can't run on QBL?

Correct. Grapevine says 7 line's software can never deal with variable length or variable weight consists (Thales equipment) on any TA in the world. Siemens/L deals with variable length/coal trains under CBTC. QBL's OTA protocol will be Siemens's spec, Thales SKUs will always talk Siemens OTA even if Thales Zone controller to Thales VOBC if I read the PDF correctly.

 

Hint, regardless of technical superiority, MTA will be loyal to Siemens since Lex/7 Ave ATS was a Siemens product, and that was MTA's 1st attempt at fake CBTC since the TImes Square shuttle.

Edited October 7, 2020 by bulk88
siemens

[Emil]

this is random but I know this is the correct thread, when would 8th avenue CBTC start? there has been so much construction this part weekend I'm thinking it's for CBTC. I'm probably certain it's delayed and such.

[Vulturious]

6 hours ago, Emil said:

this is random but I know this is the correct thread, when would 8th avenue CBTC start? there has been so much construction this part weekend I'm thinking it's for CBTC. I'm probably certain it's delayed and such.

Aren't they still working on QBL CBTC? Regardless, 8th Av is going to need the R211s to arrive before they can start on construction since there isn't enough to really run CBTC and it would basically be useless.