New F express schedule out

[Union Tpke]

@RR503 Have travel times on the trains after the s increased due to longer dwell times?

[CenSin]

On 12/3/2019 at 5:30 PM, P3F said:

Today's first PM Express (5:10 from W 4 St) was sent local from Jay Street (5:27) because, according to the C/R, "our follower is way behind us". Checking Subway Time, the next is 10 minutes away. 

I know it's logical to do, but I still feel ripped off.

Socialize all the things! Even if you're ahead of the problem, you're not out of the woods yet.

A few weeks ago, our was held at Kings Highway until the Kings Highway-bound caught up to us at 5:48 PM. I was going to rant at the idiocy until I checked the times for the next Coney Island-bound trains… they were about half an hour behind.

[P3F]

The Kings Highway-bound I was on, was sent on the express track after Ditmas Avenue. Without the Culver Rehab slowing it down, the train really gets up to speed; we were flying through Avenue N and Avenue P.

It's probably going to be the last time I ever ride an R46 on the , at the rate they're swapping them.

Edited December 16, 2019 by P3F

[N6 Limited]

How fast does the  go between Jay Street and 7th Ave, and 7th Ave and Ditmas? Does it "feel" express? Does is crawl over the Culver Viaduct?

[CenSin]

3 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

How fast does the  go between Jay Street and 7th Ave, and 7th Ave and Ditmas? Does it "feel" express? Does is crawl over the Culver Viaduct?

It depends on the direction of travel and the train operator. Some train operators are relatively cautious and will go pretty slow compared to the regular local speeds. But the main slowdowns are at these locations:

• Northbound:
  • Ditmas Avenue to Church Avenue (slow switch and slow descent down into the tunnel)
  • Carroll Street to Jay Street–MetroTech (slow crawl to Bergen Street and the occasional hold before the junction)
• Southbound:
  • Smith–9 Streets to 4 Avenue–9 Street (slow descent down to 4 Avenue–9 Street)
  • Church Avenue (hold for trains merging ahead)

Anywhere else that the train slows down is likely due to the train operator, as the s are far apart enough that there should be no interference from trains ahead.

[subway4832]

On 12/22/2019 at 3:11 PM, N6 Limited said:

How fast does the  go between Jay Street and 7th Ave, and 7th Ave and Ditmas? Does it "feel" express? Does is crawl over the Culver Viaduct?

Its borderline depressing of how slow it is, not so much the Bergen-7th Ave portion, but the 7th Avenue to Church segment, which is neutered with timers all the way down. Any reason why that section is so slow? Considering its downhill most of the way?

[RR503]

1 minute ago, subway4832 said:

Its borderline depressing of how slow it is, not so much the Bergen-7th Ave portion, but the 7th Avenue to Church segment, which is neutered with timers all the way down. Any reason why that section is so slow? Considering its downhill most of the way?

GT35s (installed for capacity’s sake given the downhill) will do that to speeds. Fun fact, though: the original IND signaling was timed even slower — 30mph.

[CenSin]

9 hours ago, RR503 said:

GT35s (installed for capacity’s sake given the downhill) will do that to speeds. Fun fact, though: the original IND signaling was timed even slower — 30mph.

Were they hoping to make up for it by making the express alignment geometrically straighter between stations?

[Eric B]

It's not capacity's sake, it's because it's a steep hill, and would be easy to reach dangerous speeds and lose control, so they enforce a maximum speed (the same with river tubes).

[RR503]

34 minutes ago, Eric B said:

It's not capacity's sake, it's because it's a steep hill, and would be easy to reach dangerous speeds and lose control, so they enforce a maximum speed (the same with river tubes).

A train blasting into Church at 60 would be surprising but not inherently unsafe if control lines were designed for that speed. It’s just that doing so is really bad for capacity. Allowing trains to run wild in river tubes or on long downhills such as this at times does not actually produce speeds in excess of safe speeds around curves etc. What it _does_ do is force signal engineers to design half mile long control lines to account for greatly increased stopping distances, which would in turn reduce line capacity through greater train separation (esp around stations) and forced increase use of station time. This is why, for example, A4 on CPW has GTs starting at 86 St rather than just before the curve at 116. Of course, there are also thousands of cases where allowing speeds greater than x does create a geometry risk of some sort, but anecdotally those curves are superelevated such that they’d be good for speeds much higher than what exists currently. This article on the original IND signal system gives a good overview. 

https://www.jonroma.net/media/signaling/railway-signaling/1932/New Eighth Avenue Subway- Signaling and Interlocking in New York City.pdf#page= https://www.jonroma.net/media/signaling/railway-signaling/1932/New Eighth Avenue Subway- Signaling and Interlocking in New York City.pdf#page=5

53 minutes ago, CenSin said:

Were they hoping to make up for it by making the express alignment geometrically straighter between stations?

I mean, yes? I don’t think they necessarily saw the enforced slow speeds as being something that necessarily had to be made up for, they just wanted to maximize the impact of the express run (which they most certainly did — on a minutes saved/stops skipped basis, Culver is one of the most efficient express runs in the system). 

Edited December 26, 2019 by RR503

[Union Tpke]

33 minutes ago, RR503 said:

A train blasting into Church at 60 would be surprising but not inherently unsafe if control lines were designed for that speed. It’s just that doing so is really bad for capacity. Allowing trains to run wild in river tubes or on long downhills such as this at times does not actually produce speeds in excess of safe speeds around curves etc. What it _does_ do is force signal engineers to design half mile long control lines to account for greatly increased stopping distances, which would in turn reduce line capacity through greater train separation (esp around stations) and forced increase use of station time. This is why, for example, A4 on CPW has GTs starting at 86 St rather than just before the curve at 116. Of course, there are also thousands of cases where allowing speeds greater than x does create a geometry risk of some sort, but anecdotally those curves are superelevated such that they’d be good for speeds much higher than what exists currently. This article on the original IND signal system gives a good overview. 

https://www.jonroma.net/media/signaling/railway-signaling/1932/New Eighth Avenue Subway- Signaling and Interlocking in New York City.pdf#page= https://www.jonroma.net/media/signaling/railway-signaling/1932/New Eighth Avenue Subway- Signaling and Interlocking in New York City.pdf#page=5

I mean, yes? I don’t think they necessarily saw the enforced slow speeds as being something that necessarily had to be made up for, they just wanted to maximize the impact of the express run (which they most certainly did — on a minutes saved/stops skipped basis, Culver is one of the most efficient express runs in the system). 

Trains used to go 60 on Queens Boulevard. Do you think it is worth trying to get trains to go back up to that speed in areas like Woodhaven?

[Union Tpke]

2 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

Trains used to go 60 on Queens Boulevard. Do you think it is worth trying to get trains to go back up to that speed in areas like Woodhaven?

Or, in areas with less frequent service, or areas that due to branching that won't realistically run 30 TPH, let's say for the sake of argument Dyre Avenue or the Rockaways, do you think that it would make sense to have faster speeds with longer control lines?

[RR503]

2 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

Trains used to go 60 on Queens Boulevard. Do you think it is worth trying to get trains to go back up to that speed in areas like Woodhaven?

CBTC will certainly enable it; I’d love to see it happen. Just a question of reprogramming limits in the CBTC software. 

2 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

Or, in areas with less frequent service, or areas that due to branching that won't realistically run 30 TPH, let's say for the sake of argument Dyre Avenue or the Rockaways, do you think that it would make sense to have faster speeds with longer control lines?

I would say yes, though by and large this is what was done to begin with, even in the mod effort (with some exceptions, ofc). It makes little sense to me to sacrifice speed for capacity in areas that don’t need capacity. 

[Union Tpke]

46 minutes ago, RR503 said:

CBTC will certainly enable it; I’d love to see it happen. Just a question of reprogramming limits in the CBTC software. 

I would say yes, though by and large this is what was done to begin with, even in the mod effort (with some exceptions, ofc). It makes little sense to me to sacrifice speed for capacity in areas that don’t need capacity. 

What other areas of the system could have 60+ with CBTC? Do you think they would do it?

Concerning the second point, what areas of the system do you think could safely have significant speed ups?

Another thing that needs to be done is signing switches to allow trains to move more quickly across them. That is common sense.

[CenSin]

With the fourth month of finishing up soon, I think there’s enough data for a verdict…

• AM is fairly good. Whether it will save you time depends on the train operator and/or conductor, but that applies to all other trains already anyway. You could theoretically have a 39-minute trip from Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue to Broadway–Lafayette Street, but 42 minutes is more likely. And if you’re on one of those slowpoke trains or something, then it’s 45 minutes. The difference can mean getting ahead of the leader or being held behind at Bergen Street.
• PM is unreliable. The brief story is that it’ll maybe save you time. Because the trains are so far along their route, by Jay Street–MetroTech, they are often off schedule and either bunched up or spaced far apart from the previous and/or next train. The dispatchers then hold the at express stations to un-bunch the trains, or cancel the entire express run to make up for service gaps. If the Culver Line is your only option, at least it can’t be worse than the since the local takes additional crap from the . On the best days (which are very rare), the trip from Broadway–Lafayette Street to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue takes 42 minutes. On an average day, it will take 48 minutes… which is just about the same time the takes on a good day. The absolute worse days can make the trip 55 minutes. That huge variation can be accounted for by a few factors that afflict the uniquely:
  • When there is another at Church Avenue already pulling out of the station, they hold the . As far as I know, they never let the skip more than 2 trains. Unfortunately, the dispatchers sometimes don’t have the sense to hold that Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue-bound for another 15 seconds to save the passengers 10 minutes, because…
  • When here is a gap in service they hold the at Kings Highway until the Kings Highway-bound catches up. The hold may be around 5 minutes. This is the second biggest factor for poor performance.
  • The biggest factor is that the is scheduled in such a way that it often ends up right behind a Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue-bound by Neptune Avenue. This accounts for anywhere from 0 (rarely) to 10 minutes of time (often) wasted idling in stations for traffic up ahead to clear the terminal. Luckily, the is a fairly reliable option to shave the time penalty down to 0~2 minutes at West 8 Street as PM trains often arrive back-to-back and clear out of the terminal nearly twice as fast as the s do.

How to use the :

• Take the AM if it serves your station.
• Definitely avoid the PM if you need these stations and you have the as an easy alternative:
  • Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue
  • West 8 Street
• Take whichever train comes first (/) if you need 7 Avenue and service is running normally.
• Take whichever Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue-bound train comes first (/) if you need these stations and service is running normally:
  • Neptune Avenue
  • Avenue X
  • Avenue U
• Take the if you need these stations and service is running normally:
  • Kings Highway through Church Avenue
  • Fort Hamilton Parkway and 15 Street–Prospect Park (transfer to the or at 7 Avenue which will often arrive within a minute or two)
• Take whichever train comes first (even if you need Avenue U and the train is Kings Highway-bound) if service craps out. Some service is going to change, but whatever the change is, you don’t want to guarantee that you’re several trains behind just for an .

Edited January 7, 2020 by CenSin

[Lawrence St]

14 hours ago, CenSin said:

With the fourth month of finishing up soon, I think there’s enough data for a verdict…

• AM is fairly good. Whether it will save you time depends on the train operator and/or conductor, but that applies to all other trains already anyway. You could theoretically have a 39-minute trip from Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue to Broadway–Lafayette Street, but 42 minutes is more likely. And if you’re on one of those slowpoke trains or something, then it’s 45 minutes. The difference can mean getting ahead of the leader or being held behind at Bergen Street.
• PM is unreliable. The brief story is that it’ll maybe save you time. Because the trains are so far along their route, by Jay Street–MetroTech, they are often off schedule and either bunched up or spaced far apart from the previous and/or next train. The dispatchers then hold the at express stations to un-bunch the trains, or cancel the entire express run to make up for service gaps. If the Culver Line is your only option, at least it can’t be worse than the since the local takes additional crap from the . On the best days (which are very rare), the trip from Broadway–Lafayette Street to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue takes 42 minutes. On an average day, it will take 48 minutes… which is just about the same time the takes on a good day. The absolute worse days can make the trip 55 minutes. That huge variation can be accounted for by a few factors that afflict the uniquely:
  • When there is another at Church Avenue already pulling out of the station, they hold the . As far as I know, they never let the skip more than 2 trains. Unfortunately, the dispatchers sometimes don’t have the sense to hold that Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue-bound for another 15 seconds to save the passengers 10 minutes, because…
  • When here is a gap in service they hold the at Kings Highway until the Kings Highway-bound catches up. The hold may be around 5 minutes. This is the second biggest factor for poor performance.
  • The biggest factor is that the is scheduled in such a way that it often ends up right behind a Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue-bound by Neptune Avenue. This accounts for anywhere from 0 (rarely) to 10 minutes of time (often) wasted idling in stations for traffic up ahead to clear the terminal. Luckily, the is a fairly reliable option to shave the time penalty down to 0~2 minutes at West 8 Street as PM trains often arrive back-to-back and clear out of the terminal nearly twice as fast as the s do.

How to use the :

• Take the AM if it serves your station.
• Definitely avoid the PM if you need these stations and you have the as an easy alternative:
  • Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue
  • West 8 Street
• Take whichever train comes first (/) if you need 7 Avenue and service is running normally.
• Take whichever Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue-bound train comes first (/) if you need these stations and service is running normally:
  • Neptune Avenue
  • Avenue X
  • Avenue U
• Take the if you need these stations and service is running normally:
  • Kings Highway through Church Avenue
  • Fort Hamilton Parkway and 15 Street–Prospect Park (transfer to the or at 7 Avenue which will often arrive within a minute or two)
• Take whichever train comes first (even if you need Avenue U and the train is Kings Highway-bound) if service craps out. Some service is going to change, but whatever the change is, you don’t want to guarantee that you’re several trains behind just for an .

Would it make sense to run these to/from 96th St if the main cause of delays come from Queens Blvd?

[RTOMan]

4 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Would it make sense to run these to/from 96th St if the main cause of delays come from Queens Blvd?

That means  making up other supplements and work program changes...

In other words No...

It will cost more, crew costs are something they are looking to trim down not increase....

Edited January 7, 2020 by RTOMan

[Around the Horn]

Not to mention that he's saying that by Jay Street its off schedule which also implies that 6th Avenue is also a problem.

[CenSin]

6 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

Not to mention that he's saying that by Jay Street its off schedule which also implies that 6th Avenue is also a problem.

Sometimes the problem is apparent already at Broadway–Lafayette Street. The  that is supposed to arrive at 5:12 PM arrives at 5:14 PM~5:16 PM. But even if it arrived on-time, the lateness of the Kings Highway-bound  up ahead may pose problems all the way to Jay Street–MetroTech as passengers delay the train trying to fit in. If a train behind is delayed, then they will also hold the  or make it run local.

The AM  almost always leaves the terminal on-time with few delay factors accumulating until it reaches Bergen Street.

[Jemorie]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Would it make sense to run these to/from 96th St if the main cause of delays come from Queens Blvd?

Kid, trains are more reliable in the earlier portions of their runs than they are in the later portions of their runs. This is speaking from my very own personal experiences. Your suggestion is not necessary.

[CenSin]

2 hours ago, Jemorie said:

Kid, trains are more reliable in the earlier portions of their runs than they are in the later portions of their runs. This is speaking from my very own personal experiences. Your suggestion is not necessary.

I smell an ad hominem attack… 🙄

[Lawrence St]

2 hours ago, CenSin said:

Sometimes the problem is apparent already at Broadway–Lafayette Street. The  that is supposed to arrive at 5:12 PM arrives at 5:14 PM~5:16 PM. But even if it arrived on-time, the lateness of the Kings Highway-bound  up ahead may pose problems all the way to Jay Street–MetroTech as passengers delay the train trying to fit in. If a train behind is delayed, then they will also hold the  or make it run local.

The AM  almost always leaves the terminal on-time with few delay factors accumulating until it reaches Bergen Street.

Ah, I didn't know the problem came from 6th Avenue.

[CenSin]

20 hours ago, CenSin said:

• When there is another at Church Avenue already pulling out of the station, they hold the . As far as I know, they never let the skip more than 2 trains. Unfortunately, the dispatchers sometimes don’t have the sense to hold that Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue-bound for another 15 seconds to save the passengers 10 minutes, because…

I spoke too soon. Today, the PM skipped two trains. Stringline below:

• I got to the Broadway–Lafayette Street platform at 5:08 PM right after an left. The Kings Highway-bound came first at 5:10 PM with a followed by the at 5:12 PM (also with a ). Both trains dwelled in the station for about a whole minute for different reasons: the first because it was packed; and the second because the first one was just up ahead.
• The ended up arriving at Jay Street–MetroTech 2 minutes earlier than the scheduled 5:23 PM, so the dispatchers held it for a connection with the . Nevertheless, it still managed to bypass the Kings Highway-bound on the upper level at Bergen Street and the at 4 Avenue–9 Street.
• I checked the signals at 7 Avenue when it made a stop there to see that a train had just left the station—the Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue-bound . At Church Avenue, I was prepared to board that across the platform, but the pulled out before I could even catch a wink of the arriving .
• The made it to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue in just 41 minute—a new record in my book, and pretty close to the optimal efficiency. (The 5:10 and 5:12 PM that I passed up could have hypothetically gotten me a 40-minute trip, but there were no trains conveniently across the platform at Sheepshead Bay when either of the trains arrived.)

That said, the stringlines do seem to exhibit some erratic behavior. I haven’t checked whether it’s the data source or the plotting software. You can see around 5:53 PM at Coney Island that the orange lines intersect—the making a “leap” from Avenue X to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue. I was on the scene and there was another on track 6, so that would have been still waiting right behind at West 8 Street until 6:02 PM. Plus, you can see on the stringline that the following train held at West 8 Street from around 6:05 PM, which is consistent with what we’d expect from a parade of trains waiting to get into the terminal.

[CenSin]

21 hours ago, CenSin said:

• PM is unreliable. The brief story is that it’ll maybe save you time. Because the trains are so far along their route, by Jay Street–MetroTech, they are often off schedule and either bunched up or spaced far apart from the previous and/or next train. The dispatchers then hold the at express stations to un-bunch the trains, or cancel the entire express run to make up for service gaps.

This stringline from yesterday is a pretty good example of what a cancelled (late 11 minutes at 5:55 PM at Broadway–Lafayette Street) run looks like. Not only was it cancelled, but it was swapped with a Kings Highway-bound . So 2 Kings Highway-bound trains would come consecutively before the Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue-bound one.

If you needed Avenue U, Avenue X, Neptune Avenue, West 8 Street, or Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue, then not only was the headway between Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue-bound trains 15 minutes at Broadway–Lafayette Street, but the delays en route added another 9 minutes by Avenue U! At Neptune Avenue, the headway between the two trains was a whopping 23 minutes.

I’m not even sure what happened precisely, but the passenger waiting for a train going from A to B wouldn’t give a crap about technicalities—just that a train would go from A to B in the shortest amount of time.

[Jemorie]

5 hours ago, CenSin said:

I smell an ad hominem attack… 🙄

You smell an ad hominem attack, my ass...that’s cute coming from someone who was getting all sassy with a train operator the other day in that dumb  express thread all for a grammar and punctuation...as if you’re some English professor, but I disgress...