Brooklyn Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[JAzumah]

15 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The Sea Gate cuts are ridiculous because from Cropsey & Canal to Sea Gate, that trip can be done in 10 minutes, so they are not saving much doing away with those trips.  They can maintain them.  Most of the usage in Coney Island is from the people in Sea Gate during the week.  On weekends there are people here and there, but again, you are not saving that much time.

They can send four buses to Sea Gate in each direction. They aren't getting a ferry (and I don't think they need one), so they should definitely keep the express bus service.

 

15 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I also am going to push to have the X27 & X28 terminate at 14th St because there is definitely a chunk of ridership north of Worth St, which is where they're proposing to end service during peak periods. Terrible idea.  By terminating them at 14th St, this gives people north of Worth St service (under this plan they would lose service during peak periods). Anyone by 23rd St can hop on the X37 or X38 or go down to 14th St.

Operationally, they can send half of the Downtown buses to 14 Street. 

 

15 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I'm looking to try to keep Saturday BM service too and off-peak on all lines.

The ridership is horrendous on weekends. They would be better off running one route to Manhattan and have the others shuttle to/from Church Avenue/E 7 Street for a timed transfer operation. You could probably add Sunday service for the cost of Saturday AND Sunday service if that were done.


I do like the new BM4 routing. Half of the X29 has returned.

[JAzumah]

16 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Community has asked for B71 restoration and extension into Manhattan. Rejected by MTA, and chose instead to widen the service gap by moving the B65 to Atlantic Ave.

It doesn't need to go to Manhattan. That route can go every 30 minutes between Brooklyn Bridge Park and Prospect Heights. It could be run with 2-3 buses and interlined with express service to/from Manhattan.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

27 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

-They can send four buses to Sea Gate in each direction. They aren't getting a ferry (and I don't think they need one), so they should definitely keep the express bus service.

 

-Operationally, they can send half of the Downtown buses to 14 Street. 

 

-The ridership is horrendous on weekends. They would be better off running one route to Manhattan and have the others shuttle to/from Church Avenue/E 7 Street for a timed transfer operation. You could probably add Sunday service for the cost of Saturday AND Sunday service if that were done.


-I do like the new BM4 routing. Half of the X29 has returned.

-There are people in Coney Island and Sea Gate that both wanted (and advocated heavily) for that ferry (it likely won't happen because of the environmental concerns raised).  I think they have to perform another EIS anyway if there was to be a new location selected.

-And quite frankly that's what they should do. They argue that there isn't that much ridership north of Worth St, and that's just not true.  Some of the changes not just on the express bus side but also on the local bus side are being done to simply make travel less convenient and force people onto the subway.  If there is anything that the pandemic has shown, it's that people now have options since they don't need to go to the office every day.  They need to be enticing people to take whatever they want to use to get people back into the system.  I know a number of people now that absolutely refuse to take the subway because they are concerned about crime, so they take the local buses, even though they take longer. That should be fine. It's better than those people driving, but it seems like that's what the is pushing for when they are in dire need of more fares and ridership.  Ridership continues to hover around 60% overall of pre-pandemic levels.

-Ridership is what it is after years of horrendous service.  You can't just talk about how ridership is low without explaining why. I've been a BM rider in some capacity for over 15 years and Saturday service was brutal after they started cutting service.  Excessively late buses because the drivers were playing games OR better yet, no bus at all because the driver skipped the Downtown portion or another portion of the route entirely.  When you run crap service, people stop using it. The BM lines overall have lost a ton of ridership for this reason.  This Redesign in my mind is mediocre at best and downright bad in some cases, both local and express.

-I like most of the BM4 routing as well. There's potential for a "new" market (even if it is part of the old X29). People in that area have been asking for some sort of express bus for years and you don't need three express buses along Ocean Av. The only issue I do have is the Downtown pattern.  The loop needs to be maintained.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[ABOGbrooklyn]

3 hours ago, Nova Fly Guy said:

B5/B6 - I have no complaints I’m from Breukelen we wanted a bus to gateway without going to East New York. Moving it off of Glenwood was a great move almost Nobody get on the bus it also eliminates that Bottle neck At Nostrand & Albany Av. Ceasar Bay is a Driver friendly shopping Center nobody used the B6 for that anyway. I believe this is a streamline thing for 60FT in the Future 

 

As someone who lives by the Bay Parkway stretch of the B6. You are wrong on this. Alot of people use the B6 to get to Caesars Bay and BJs (which is the next stop) they need to keep the B6 the way it was or atleast keep the B5 that way..

Edited December 2, 2022 by ABOGbrooklyn

[Nova Fly Guy]

16 minutes ago, ABOGbrooklyn said:

As someone who lives by the Bay Parkway stretch of the B6. You are wrong on this. Alot of people use the B6 to get to Caesars Bay and BJs (which is the next stop) they need to keep the B6 the way it was or atleast keep the B5 that way..

Not enough to justify keeping service there after 86 the B6 is very light to empty.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Nova Fly Guy

[Lawrence St]

2 hours ago, JAzumah said:

They can send four buses to Sea Gate in each direction. They aren't getting a ferry (and I don't think they need one), so they should definitely keep the express bus service.

 

Operationally, they can send half of the Downtown buses to 14 Street. 

 

The ridership is horrendous on weekends. They would be better off running one route to Manhattan and have the others shuttle to/from Church Avenue/E 7 Street for a timed transfer operation. You could probably add Sunday service for the cost of Saturday AND Sunday service if that were done.


I do like the new BM4 routing. Half of the X29 has returned.

Who said they weren't getting a ferry? EDC has been trying to add one but they're the ones who keep pushing against it, even though they were the ones who asked for it.

[Lawrence St]

Something I don't like is that gap in service on Cropsey Ave.

Now I proposed to have the B35 LTD replace the B15 to JFK Airport, but folks here told me that would never work. The way how they have it now misses a big chunk of the ridership from the  and .

They basically ate a big chunk of the B103? What about people who actually ride the entire route into Downtown Brooklyn?

Shore Road needs to have some type of local service like the B9 being extended southward to 86th St to fill in that coverage gap.

[Around the Horn]

16 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Who said they weren't getting a ferry? EDC has been trying to add one but they're the ones who keep pushing against it, even though they were the ones who asked for it.

They're abandoning that landing because the channel isn't deep enough and ferries keep grounding

[Via Garibaldi 8]

16 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Who said they weren't getting a ferry? EDC has been trying to add one but they're the ones who keep pushing against it, even though they were the ones who asked for it.

They aren't pushing against it. Any community that asks for a ferry has to go through an EIS (Environmental Impact Study). There are quite a few examples of where a ferry dock was chosen and then the EIS found issues with said location. Same thing here. It is not easy to find a suitable location. The other option on the other side of Coney Island also doesn't seem feasible.

[trainfan22]

21 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

 

They basically ate a big chunk of the B103? What about people who actually ride the entire route into Downtown Brooklyn?

Transfer to the B41 or the 2 & 5 lines. It's a free transfer.

[BrooklynBus]

32 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Shore Road needs to have some type of local service like the B9 being extended southward to 86th St to fill in that coverage gap.

Something else I proposed in my plan. 
https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=!AMuE4L4GieYCDX0&cid=27B4793AC6019868&id=27B4793AC6019868!192&parId=27B4793AC6019868!105&o=OneUp

[ABOGbrooklyn]

4 hours ago, Nova Fly Guy said:

Not enough to justify keeping service there after 86 the B6 is very light to empty.

How many times have you taken the B6 past 86 street?

[JAzumah]

3 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

They aren't pushing against it. Any community that asks for a ferry has to go through an EIS (Environmental Impact Study). There are quite a few examples of where a ferry dock was chosen and then the EIS found issues with said location. Same thing here. It is not easy to find a suitable location. The other option on the other side of Coney Island also doesn't seem feasible.

In addition, the operating costs of that boat is going to be very high.

My guess is that the planners were expecting the ferry to go in and that would allow them to drop that mileage. In light of the city's budget crunch plus the siting issues, it isn't going to happen.

 

 

6 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Ridership is what it is after years of horrendous service.  You can't just talk about how ridership is low without explaining why. I've been a BM rider in some capacity for over 15 years and Saturday service was brutal after they started cutting service.  Excessively late buses because the drivers were playing games OR better yet, no bus at all because the driver skipped the Downtown portion or another portion of the route entirely.  When you run crap service, people stop using it. The BM lines overall have lost a ton of ridership for this reason.  This Redesign in my mind is mediocre at best and downright bad in some cases, both local and express.

They could put in a trial period of weekend service, but I expect Sunday ridership to be higher than Saturdays. They shouldn't run all four buses in. It makes no sense right now.

[JAzumah]

3 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Now I proposed to have the B35 LTD replace the B15 to JFK Airport, but folks here told me that would never work. The way how they have it now misses a big chunk of the ridership from the  and .

They are better off digging a connection from Lafayette Avenue to the Barclays Center hub to facilitate that type of transfer rather than running a bus service. They could tag the Fulton Street  onto it while they are at it.

[Nova Fly Guy]

3 hours ago, ABOGbrooklyn said:

How many times have you taken the B6 past 86 street?

Often outside of the weekend and even then you don’t have a a full bus pass 86 Street. There is no heavy demand by bus for Ceasar Bay most residents down their drive. Hence we why the old B5 or B82 were never added to shore road it’s no real demand.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Nova Fly Guy

[Tonyboy515]

5 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Something I don't like is that gap in service on Cropsey Ave.

Now I proposed to have the B35 LTD replace the B15 to JFK Airport, but folks here told me that would never work. The way how they have it now misses a big chunk of the ridership from the  and .

They basically ate a big chunk of the B103? What about people who actually ride the entire route into Downtown Brooklyn?

Shore Road needs to have some type of local service like the B9 being extended southward to 86th St to fill in that coverage gap.

The Cropsey Avenue gap is being filled by a rerouted B64, which is a win.

Extending the B55 XT down 39th Street doesn’t make sense, it makes the already-really-long route even longer, and the optimized B35 should do the trick anyway ( to  or  is still faster to Church Avenue than the B35 would be).

Speaking from personal experience, the B103 LTD portion from Flatbush to Downtown Brooklyn is a pathetic crap-shoot, even with the express Prospect Expressway segment. I’ve used it a couple of times to get to/from Downtown Brooklyn when the  we’re having issues and boy was it freaking horrible, especially trying to make it down 3rd/4th Avenue, taking at the very least 40 minutes to get from Church Avenue to Downtown unless traffic is spotless. People are better off transferring to the  to get downtown anyway. Even then, the new proposed B81 knocks down three issues in one: being an (albeit more local) B103 alternative with a more streamlined route, being somewhat of a B21 comeback (the pre-2010 cuts Cortelyou Road route), and connecting Red Hook.

As for a Shore Road local, I can see how a B9 extension would work, but I don’t think there’s enough demand for travel within the area, there is more outward demand, and that’s already also covered with the B4 and B16.

[JeremiahC99]

On 12/1/2022 at 10:58 PM, checkmatechamp13 said:

I think they're of the belief that the slight B82 reroute onto Avenue K (and the frequency of the route) is sufficient compensation for the lack of through Avenue K service (though I do agree that it should exist for the purposes of connecting to Flatbush/Nostrand).

Probably, but I still see a rerouted B82 as no good substitute for a through Avenue K local route. I actually live a block away from there, and a B11 extension via Avenue K can provide a great new route to the  train at Flatbush/Nostrand (or another stop if that line gets extended southward, but that is for another day), provided the route operate at least every 15 minutes. As it stand's now I'm still stuck with 20-30 minute frequencies for Avenue N service during the weekend hours. Not changing with this redesign. At this point might as well send another bus route down there that can operate more frequently.

Also a though Avenue K route can better connect to Georgetown Shopping Center, since that car-oriented strip mall has a grand total of zero east-west local bus route options.

[Q43LTD]

The  has to define "filling a gap" and "a bit more familiar" Anyway...

B1-Stays as is. 

B3-Stays as is. 

B4-Stays as is, but would no longer serve Coney Island Hospital or Lincoln HS instead becoming the Stillwell Av bus. Maybe it goes back to UP?

B5-Returns after a 27 year absence. Wait, Gravesend?! I thought that was Bensonhurst. Possible depot, UP

B6-Stays as is. WOuld love to see the timetable for the B5/6

B7-Stays as is with service extended to Ridgewood. I guess that's their excuse for staying at FP. Do those short turns at Flatbush discontinue?

B8-Stays as is. I suppose the Dyker Hts short turns are discontinued

B9-I guess we can forget about those Bergen Beach proposals

B10-Does the B12 really need a LTD variant?

B11-Rerouted west of 4 Av for the umpteenth time

B12-Stays as is

B13-Stays as is however, rerouted to Cypress Av and would no longer serve the Post Office and would run 24 hours

B14-Stays as is, but diverted to serve Euclid  

B15-Stays as is. Extended north to Montrose Av , would use Throop instead of Lewis northbound. IDK maybe send it to the old B13 terminal prior to 2010? Cut back to ENY to the former B14 terminal.

B16-Stays as is, extended to Kingsboro Pysch. Is that Crown Hts or East Flatbush?

B17-Stays as is, but loses rush hour service to Rockaway Pkwy  and Paerdeagt Basin

B20-Stays as is with no service north of Broadway Junction. I guess it will no longer split with ENY/FP

B25-Stays as is, scratching my head on why overnight service west of Franklin Av is cut

B26-Stays as is but would use all of Halsey

B27-New route from Vinegar Hill to Red Hook. Looks like a watered down B75. I guess it goes to JG. I see a missed opportunity. It could have ended at City Hall like the former B51 or BPC. I thought this was about improving interborough connections!

B31-Stays as is

B35-Stays as is, but loses LTD service

B36-Stays as is

B37-Stays as is. I think this is another missed opportunity, sending back to Downtown Brooklyn

B38-Stays as is with the Metro Av branch discontinued and loses LTD service

B39-Stays as is

B40-Prospect Park  to Bergen Beach. I wouldn't give it 24 hours though

B41-Stays as is with no service north of Livingston St and loses the Bergen Beach branch

B42-Stays as is

B43-Stays as is but would use Albany Av/Marcus Garvey Blvd northbound

B44-Stays as is, but SBS would serve Coney Island Hospital. Locals would swap with the B49 north of the Junction. I see that Coney Island Hospital proposal being shot down like Bx6 SBS to Castle Hill.

B45-Stays as is with an extension to Ralph Av  Breevort PJ's looks like a stub to me. Would use New York Av instead of Rogers Av to get to Sterling Pl

B46-Stays as is with locals ending at Woodhull Hospital. I guess the B53 would take it's place inside Washington Plaza?

B47-Stays as is with no service on Clarkson. Seems like this route could have been split

B48-It switches northern termini with the B69 and extended south to Church Av . I guess it will switch to JG? Loses overnight service

B49-As mentioned, switches routing north of Foster with the B44 LCL and switches southern termini with the B68. Do they switch depots as well? Becomes 24/7

B52-Stays as is with no service on Greene Av

B53-To me it looks like the B40 on steroids. Broadway Junction to Sunnyside. It's similar to Queens wanting a full Broadway route and most of the  stations aren't ADA accessible. I guess ENY or GA it comes out of. 

B54-Stays as is

B55-I guess this will be as close it will to a B35 to JFK. Kensington to JFK. ENY? JG?

B57-Extended to Jackson Hts, but cut back to Downtown Brooklyn. Regains 24/7 service

B60-No service north of Broadway Junction. Goes back to ENY?

B61-Stays as is with no service south of Prospect Park

B62-Extended north to Astoria but would not serve Queens Plaza. 

B63-Stays as is

B64-Stays as is, but rerouted west of 4 Av, service shifted to Cropsey

B65-Stays as is, rerouted west of Washington Av

B66-New route between Williamsburg and Broadway Junction assuming the northern half of the B60. ENY? GA?

B67-Stays as is with no service to Williamsburg via Navy Yard. I think this is a missed chance to extend it to Williamsburg Bridge Plaza

B68-See my comments for the B49

B69-Swaps northern termini with the B48, but cut back to Park Slope the former B75 terminal

B70-Stays as is but extended north to 30 St-3 Av to "new retail area"

B74-Stays as is

B76-Rush hour route. It's Paerdegat Basin, not Canarsie! I guess it calls ENY home

B81-Red Hook-Brooklyn College. Cortelyou Rd gets bus service for the first time since 2010 when the B23 was eliminated. JG is it's home I guess

B82-Stays as is but matches the SBS routing. No service south of Gravesend

B83-Stays as is with service shifting to Penn Av and gains 24/7 service

B100-Stays as is, but rerouted to Av R to compensate the loss of the B2. Sorry Madison HS

B103-My worst nightmare came to fruition. No service north of Brooklyn College, but extended to New Lots  

I see some missed chances for a 65 St Crosstown as not too many  stations aren't ADA accessible from say Sunset Park to Avenue P  . A Ft Hamilton Pkwy route from Prospect Park to Ft Hamilton and a 16 Av route from Kensington to Caesar's Bay

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by Q43LTD
Additional thoughts

[Via Garibaldi 8]

13 hours ago, JAzumah said:

In addition, the operating costs of that boat is going to be very high.

My guess is that the planners were expecting the ferry to go in and that would allow them to drop that mileage. In light of the city's budget crunch plus the siting issues, it isn't going to happen.

 

 

They could put in a trial period of weekend service, but I expect Sunday ridership to be higher than Saturdays. They shouldn't run all four buses in. It makes no sense right now.

The problem with not running all four is one neighborhood gets service and the others don't. Would make more sense to run the BM1 & BM3. BM2 & BM4 riders could make their way to those lines.

[ABOGbrooklyn]

21 hours ago, Nova Fly Guy said:

Not enough to justify keeping service there after 86 the B6 is very light to empty.

So routing the B5 to Gateway Mall makes sense but the B5 to Caesars Bay doesnt..?

B6 still has alot of people going to Caesars Bay especially from 3 pm to 9pm..

[Lex]

6 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The problem with not running all four is one neighborhood gets service and the others don't. Would make more sense to run the BM1 & BM3. BM2 & BM4 riders could make their way to those lines.

Given how little the BM2 has in common with the others, I'd run the BM2 on Sundays well before the BM1, especially if it serves the Spring Creek Towers.

[Cait Sith]

11 minutes ago, Lex said:

Given how little the BM2 has in common with the others, I'd run the BM2 on Sundays well before the BM1, especially if it serves the Spring Creek Towers.

Agreed. That actually makes more sense. The BM2 has the highest ridership of the bunch as well.

In terms of weekend ridership numbers from most to least, the BM2 is #1, BM3 is #2, BM1 is #3, BM5 is #4 and BM4 is #5

Edited December 3, 2022 by Cait Sith

[Q43LTD]

I feel bad for Spring Creek if this goes through. I like how the M55 is mentioned like it may stick around for the Manhattan redesign 

Edited December 3, 2022 by Q43LTD
Looked at the BM2 proposal

[Lex]

On 12/1/2022 at 4:36 PM, BrooklynBus said:

First explain to me why move the express bus from Avenue K to Avenue J when Avenue J is chronically congested and Avenue K moves much better which is why J was not chosen when the route was created? 

You mean the section of Avenue J west of Ocean Avenue? That's not being covered by the express side.

Also, have you actually seen how Avenue K interacts with Flatbush Avenue? It's basically a worse version of Glenwood Road and Flatbush Avenue.

[Lex]

On the Remix map, someone suggested having the B69 cover Union Street instead of running down 7th Avenue (more or less with the implication that the B67 would regain the frequency it lost to the B69). I'm not necessarily agreeing with it, but I do find it interesting.

Regarding this, I'd propose either a bridge along Sackett Street across the canal or a modification of the nearby section of Union Street for bidirectional bus traffic as a prerequisite for restoration of service over there.