NYC's trains of the future won't arrive until Q1 2021.

[Lawrence St]

https://www.thecity.nyc/2020/11/29/21559787/mta-new-subway-cars-running-late-nyc

So now we have an official reason: due to the pandemic, there is a shortage in supplies in order to complete the first R211's. At this point I won't be surprised if the R211A's and R211T's orders are cancelled.

[Trainmaster5]

4 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

https://www.thecity.nyc/2020/11/29/21559787/mta-new-subway-cars-running-late-nyc

So now we have an official reason: due to the pandemic, there is a shortage in supplies in order to complete the first R211's. At this point I won't be surprised if the R211A's and R211T's orders are cancelled.

What surprise ? Those cars aren’t paid for and I don’t think the federal government would take kindly to using bailout money for new car purchases. That money should be earmarked for present operations. My opinion.

[Caelestor]

Rolling stock replacement shouldn't be delayed, pandemic or not. Running more reliable service on the existing lines is very important, especially given the MTA's plans to cut service due to the looming budget shortfall.

[Reptile]

It's not the end of the world IMO, R32s are already out so I think that the R46s can hold on a little longer.

Q1 2021 is starting in just a month as well.

[LTA1992]

3 hours ago, Reptile said:

It's not the end of the world IMO, R32s are already out so I think that the R46s can hold on a little longer.

Q1 2021 is starting in just a month as well.

Anything can happen between now and the end of March. It may not be the end of the world, but the effects are only just now starting to show. 2021 is going to be quite the year, I think.

[Lance]

They'll have to deal with those problems as they come up as there's no way they'll be able to preemptively without some divine intervention. Let's hope the 46s can last long enough to weather this.

[R32 3838]

On 11/30/2020 at 1:12 PM, Lance said:

They'll have to deal with those problems as they come up as there's no way they'll be able to preemptively without some divine intervention. Let's hope the 46s can last long enough to weather this.

R46's are starting to drop like flies and rumors going around that their bodies aren't in the best shape at all.

 

On 11/29/2020 at 11:35 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

What surprise ? Those cars aren’t paid for and I don’t think the federal government would take kindly to using bailout money for new car purchases. That money should be earmarked for present operations. My opinion.

Again the Base order was already paid for, Option orders weren't. If they cancel the Base order, They'll lose way more money that saving whatever they have. That's why it's a contract.

[Trainmaster5]

14 minutes ago, R32 3838 said:

R46's are starting to drop like flies and rumors going around that their bodies aren't in the best shape at all.

 

Again the Base order was already paid for, Option orders weren't. If they cancel the Base order, They'll lose way more money that saving whatever they have. That's why it's a contract.

I was actually talking about the option orders. BTW in the real world contracts are re-worked all the time. Penalties will apply but it happens. Think of all the businesses who expected deliveries in downtown Manhattan on 9/12/ 2001. J&R refunded my money for a CPU/ motherboard combo that they couldn't provide 5 weeks later. That was paid for. It happens. Anything can be renegotiated if the parties are willing. Old folks told us youngsters that the only thing written in stone were The Ten Commandments. Carry on.

Edited December 4, 2020 by Trainmaster5

[Lex]

39 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I was actually talking about the option orders. BTW in the real world contracts are re-worked all the time. Penalties will apply but it happens. Think of all the businesses who expected deliveries in downtown Manhattan on 9/12/ 2001. J&R refunded my money for a CPU/ motherboard combo that they couldn't provide 5 weeks later. That was paid for. It happens. Anything can be renegotiated if the parties are willing. Old folks told us youngsters that the only thing written in stone were The Ten Commandments. Carry on.

This is why I can see the option orders and the R262s getting pushed back, but not necessarily canned (in the case of the former). Granted, anything can change, but I don't expect anything more severe than that.

[Vulturious]

55 minutes ago, Lex said:

This is why I can see the option orders and the R262s getting pushed back, but not necessarily canned (in the case of the former). Granted, anything can change, but I don't expect anything more severe than that.

Let's just hope that when the R211's come by and if the  gets the $12 Billion, they can maybe use that to invest into some more cars to at least make sure that all the R46s are out as they are really starting to become more of problem everyday. But like you said, anything can change, this is just on the brighter side of things. 

[bobtehpanda]

16 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I was actually talking about the option orders. BTW in the real world contracts are re-worked all the time. Penalties will apply but it happens. Think of all the businesses who expected deliveries in downtown Manhattan on 9/12/ 2001. J&R refunded my money for a CPU/ motherboard combo that they couldn't provide 5 weeks later. That was paid for. It happens. Anything can be renegotiated if the parties are willing. Old folks told us youngsters that the only thing written in stone were The Ten Commandments. Carry on.

Both parties have to be willing to negotiate, and Kawasaki is pretty much circling the drain.

[Trainmaster5]

15 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

Both parties have to be willing to negotiate, and Kawasaki is pretty much circling the drain.

So I've noticed. There's a reason I keep trying to tell our fellow posters to read the business pages, too.

[R10 2952]

I won't miss Kawasaki, I won't miss Bombardier.

In general, it's rather troubling that a First World country with a GDP of $21 trillion dollars no longer seems to have any dedicated domestic (i.e., not foreign-owned or controlled) rail equipment manufacturer of its own.

Edited December 5, 2020 by R10 2952

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, R10 2952 said:

I won't miss Kawasaki, I won't miss Bombardier.

In general, it's rather troubling that a First World country with a GDP of $21 trillion dollars no longer seems to have any dedicated domestic (i.e., not foreign-owned or controlled) rail equipment manufacturer of its own.

The major issue is that there is no major demand for heavy rail passenger rolling stock in the US. Businesses need constant cashflow. And this is before you consider everyone demanding that the factory for their order be in their state or city.

At some point, we need to cut our Buy America losses, if even big foreign companies cannot afford the cost of doing business here.

Edited December 5, 2020 by bobtehpanda

[Jsunflyguy]

In a way Budd kind of over-disrupted the market. They sold a reliable, virtually indestructible car that essentially left no market. (aside from post WWII auto-boom)

[bobtehpanda]

16 hours ago, Jsunflyguy said:

In a way Budd kind of over-disrupted the market. They sold a reliable, virtually indestructible car that essentially left no market. (aside from post WWII auto-boom)

The real way to survive is to not put all your eggs in one basket (namely, a weak American market).

What is common across all current train manufacturers, globally, is that they generally sell to multiple markets to maintain a consistent revenue stream. Budd simply failed to directly compete in other markets.

[TrainRider Railfan]

On 11/30/2020 at 1:12 PM, Lance said:

They'll have to deal with those problems as they come up as there's no way they'll be able to preemptively without some divine intervention. Let's hope the 46s can last long enough to weather this.

Those R46s are falling apart, though. Last year I rode them daily and the signs were always breaking, the doors would get stuck sometimes too. Once my dad got trapped in an R46 car because the doors wouldn't open at stations. Those locked end doors are gonna end up killing someone in a fire or something.

[Eric B]

I saw a sign on one (on the Q) where the plastic was discolored, like it was starting to be burned. Never saw that before! Hope they get the 211's soon.

[Bill from Maspeth]

14 hours ago, TrainRider Railfan said:

Those R46s are falling apart, though. Last year I rode them daily and the signs were always breaking, the doors would get stuck sometimes too. Once my dad got trapped in an R46 car because the doors wouldn't open at stations. Those locked end doors are gonna end up killing someone in a fire or something.

Those are maintainance  issues and certainly not reasons by themselves to retire the cars.

[MHV9218]

On 12/18/2020 at 9:56 PM, TrainRider Railfan said:

Those R46s are falling apart, though. Last year I rode them daily and the signs were always breaking, the doors would get stuck sometimes too. Once my dad got trapped in an R46 car because the doors wouldn't open at stations. Those locked end doors are gonna end up killing someone in a fire or something.

The idea is that all of the end doors can be remotely unlocked during an emergency. I don't actually know how well this system still works, or if the TA tests it during maintenance cycles. They should, especially since the last cars to come with an FRA-style emergency window escape were the R16-R17s...

[R32 3838]

On 12/19/2020 at 12:28 AM, Eric B said:

I saw a sign on one (on the Q) where the plastic was discolored, like it was starting to be burned. Never saw that before! Hope they get the 211's soon.

They all are starting to look like that, This started happening about mid 2019 before the cars started to go to Coney.

[bulk88]

On 12/20/2020 at 5:06 PM, MHV9218 said:

The idea is that all of the end doors can be remotely unlocked during an emergency. I don't actually know how well this system still works, or if the TA tests it during maintenance cycles. They should, especially since the last cars to come with an FRA-style emergency window escape were the R16-R17s...

MTA appoints all members of the US DOT's mandated NY State rapid transit safety agency, so the NYCT has no AHJ legally and its only requirements to follow any safety guidelines are that of its 1st line liability insurance companies. The emergency exit swing doors with now disabled alarms were a lawsuit by civilians IIRC. Before that the NYCT claimed sovereign immunity and any deveation from APTA/ANSI is a disciplinary issue, not a legal issue. It still does.

Yes, I'll say NYCT subway truly has no legal emergency exit. But on other metros, vandals often use the emergency exit handles as vandalism. As a kid I remember teens getting on RTS buses for free in the back through the window by using the exit handle and pulling up their friend by a tshirt into the RTS bus. Often teens forgot to latch the window shut again and on curves the glass swung open and closed about 1 to 2 inches. A bus driver back in the way told me he dreams of that glass on an RTS being pushed so far out on its hinge that it lands on the teen and puts him out😁