Experts say plans to extend 7 line subway to New Jersey are a dead end, feds won't fund it

[NX Express]

First they need to replace the Steinway Tunnel and make the line B Division. Otherwise, ridership will prove to be too much.

[553 Bridgeton]

TA could just finish building the current configuration to 11th Av, then sell the entire line to PATH and save money (personnel, equipment, etc), and let PA build the Jersey extension and have it function as a PATH line.

 

Let TA take its 62A's over to fill shortages elsewhere in the IRT , the lines that do not share equipment, and PATH can bring in their own equipment and everyone's happy. The line as it is only has one switch just north of Queens to the BMT and runs by itself otherwise. All other lines in the system have multiple ways to get to other trunks. Transfers to other IRT/BMT/IND lines with the exception of Queensboro all go thru lengthy corridors or staircases, so an additional fare payment area is easy to place and implement.

 

Now this sounds like something that can happen. Very good plan, just as Pablo said!

[Nexis4Jersey]

I think the MTA should enhance and extend the network in Brooklyn and Queens more before anything like this put on the table. Make this a PATH job.....the MTA would ruin it... and what happened to expanding the SI network , sometimes i think politicians should just keep there mouth shut...

[Roadcruiser1]

I actually mentioned something like that 2 pages ago. Here I will quote out what I said.

 

Well I guess the New York City Subway and the has gone from realism to fantasy map drawing. They don't focus on the places where New York still needs subway service like Eastern Queens, Eastern Bronx, Red Hook, Governor's Island, Central Bronx, Cemetery Way in Queens, Utica Avenue, the southern section of Nostrand Avenue, a 34th Street Crosstown Line, a LaGuardia Airport extension, Eastern Manhattan (Second Avenue Subway), Western Manhattan (10-12th Avenue), a far Western Bronx (Riverdale) extension, Staten Island, and Dyker Heights. Instead we are spending a chunk of our money for the people that don't even live in New York State. This what people were complaining about on the NY Times forum. Why don't we finish serving the rest of New York City first, and then we will start on New Jersey. We haven't even finish helping everyone in New York and we can't afford New Jersey. This money would be better spent to hire more work crews and machinery on Second Avenue then New Jersey. I am not against New Jersey just this isn't the time.

[Shortline Bus]

Uh yea um.... Are you being serious?

 

Subway has no legal ability to cross city limits let alone state lines.

 

I'm sorry i just...

 

Ok i'm going to stop there cuz yea.

 

- A

 

What about Phildealphia, Chicago, LA, Toronto, Boston just to name a few that cross city/nearby town lines?

 

Metsfan the laws can be changed. I rather have the (7)line be extended to Seacus (i assume to connect with (NJT)station out there)then have nothing at all. I agree it would be better for the ARC tunnel to be bulit but this is a fiscal crisis unmatched since the depression.

 

Why against it? This is the 21st century and the railroads do everything. You can also change for NYC subway anyhow. Metsfan not trying to be rude this is the 21st century not 1911.

[Trainmaster5]

As I pointed out when I posted earlier this is all speculation at this point. A "what if" type of proposal. What interested me most were the responses from the politicos involved. If I've learned anything in life it's always about the money and power. An article like this doesn't just pop up in the NYT. There's obviously been some talk about some sort of plan since the NJT ARC project was cancelled. Think of the federal,state, and PA monies now orphaned because of the cancellation. Now think of all the grandstanding politicians from both states who'd love to get their hands on the cash before it reverts back to the original funders. Throw in some real estate speculators with that group and this sort of trial balloon is floated. Now throw in some consultants from both states and this gravy train takes on a life of it's own. Railfans scream "what about Queens, S.I., Brooklyn, wherever" and rightfully so. Guess what ? The powers that be only care about the CBD. The business core of Manhattan. If they can structure this deal to include the backoffices located on the other side of the Hudson River and make it palatable to the NJ governor, the PANY&NJ, and the federal officials in DC and both states watch this proposal, or something similar, rear it's head again and again in years to come. BTW who says the MTA can't sell the Flushing line or lease it to the PA(PATH) for 99 years ? If it's written in some obscure covenant in the MTA's charter it can be done away with. Every day on my part of L.I., whether Brooklyn or Suffolk county, I see a private corporation, New York and Atlantic , running freight trains along the MTA's tracks. Where money is concerned watch which, and how many, pigs are ready to feed at the trough.

[Santa Fe via Willow]

:cool: Following in the (S89)'s footsteps.

[Roadcruiser1]

This is what Walder and the wrote about this:

 

Walder: No. 7 extension into NJ 'exciting,' but not affordable

 

The city’s proposal to have the No. 7 train extend into New Jersey sounds “very exciting,” the MTA chief said Wednesday — but just don’t ask his cash-strapped agency for help.

 

“There is no money in our capital program for any megaprojects beyond the three we have underway,” Chairman Jay Walder told reporters after an MTA meeting, referring to the Second Avenue subway, Fulton Street Transit Center and East Side Access projects.

 

Walder couldn’t say whether the line would be able to handle a surge in riders if it were to continue under the Hudson River to a rail station in Secaucus.

 

A longer line could cost $5.3 billion, city officials said, and is being proposed after New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie killed a plan to build a commuter rail tunnel between the states. City officials could reportedly try to earn some of the $3 billion in federal funding that was supposed to go toward the tunnel project.

 

Mayoral spokesman Andrew Brent said Wednesday that it is “unlikely that the project would move forward without” federal aid.

 

MTA board members agreed that the agency shouldn’t be on the hook for the project.

 

“If the Port Authority and the state of New Jersey want to [fund it], and there’s some kind of deal where we pay for the extra cars, maybe people will go for that,” said board member Andrew Albert.

 

Mayor Michael Bloomberg called the project a “very clever idea” Wednesday, but said it’s too soon to gauge its feasibility.

 

The current $2.1 billion project to extend the 7 train from its terminus of 42nd Street and Times Square to 34th Street and 11th Avenue is scheduled to be completed by 2013.

 

http://www.amny.com/urbanite-1.812039/walder-no-7-extension-into-nj-exciting-but-not-affordable-1.2472215

 

The started construction of the extension on 2007. It would be 2013 before it's done. If they do extend to Secaucus it won't be complete for a long time. First the extension is only 1 and a half miles away from Times Square, and it took 6 years. Secaucus and Hoboken is 6 miles away from Times Square. That is 4 times the distance so it should be 4 times the amount of time. That would be 24 years. If construction started next year it would be 2035 before it's finished.

[EE Broadway Local]

The Daily News is reporting that the extension would be a tunnel from West 34th Street to New Jersey and a three mile subway in New Jersey and it sounds like there would be two new stations (Secaucus and Tenth Avenue).

 

It seems what they are thinking is extending the to the Frank R. Lautenberg Secaucus Junction Station at County Road and County Avenue.

 

This would offer an alternative to NJ Transit's Midtown Direct service.

 

Altogether, it would add about five miles to the Flushing (Corona) Line and three stations (unless they decide to add a second New Jersey station to maybe offer transfers between HBLR at Lincoln Harbor Station and the ).

 

The Daily News is also reporting that the $5 billion dollar estimate is believed because Manhattan digging will be only from Eleventh Avenue and West 34th Street and that digging in New Jersey will be only three miles.

 

(Sometimes, living in Arizona now, I myself, forget how small an area Metropolitan New York City is, relatively speaking. Weehawken, New Jersey is only 1 1/2 square miles.)

[Roadcruiser1]

Who knows they might decide to build more stations to serve the people. My suggestion is to make it a 4 track tunnel and line in New Jersey. 2 express tracks and 2 local tracks. The would provide super express service along the entire line providing fast service for people in New Jersey. The would make stops along the way to bring in people from all over New Jersey into New York. Though to speed up construction time I suggest that they use abandoned railroad lines, and elevate most of the sections. They are New Jersey who cares if we ruin their skyline and view. Just do whatever it takes to speed up and make construction time and cost very short, but safe, but really short. Like elevate the section in Hoboken, and Secaucus. Along the way run it along an abandoned railroad line. Be sure to convert it into a subway line first.

[Blatherskite]

Obama should get involved with this and have it fully Federally funded to be sort of a job stimulus at the same time helping the communities, but it should be done this way: Convert the entire 7 train line to a high speed magnet train. Queens could be much quieter with a magnet train. If there is a problem with high speed and curves, see if they can be corrected, or better yet, build it under ground. Then extend the 7 in both directions and ultimately make it a giant trunk line with multiple lines. 1 line can be an airport line going to all three major airports with only major stops in between like Times Square, Grand Central, etc., and then continue into Long Island, and have the trains be specially build to hold luggage. Have another branch built to go with the proposal that they have now to NJ, but it can end up branching out to college point on the other end. I know this will never happen, but it would truly be the best thing they could do and would help many people. If they did this, how many thousands less people would drive per day? I know I would take the train to the airport this way. It would also clean up the air and make travel much easier while clearing up traffic for the NJ auto tunnels. Again, it would never happen because it would be the right thing to do. Also leave the terminals in NJ and NY sort of open ended for possible futre extensions to Philly and Washington DC and beyond, and Connecticut and Boston and beyond the other way, maybe even into Canada. Something like this could be a revolution to American transportation like the the highway system was when Eisenhower did with the country when he was president.

[Ceya]

Hey if it does float, NJ will be starting construction on their end first.

 

If NYC does find money after 2013 and SAS not finished, somebody should be on the stakes.

 

With MTA already wasting money, they cannot afford to waste anymore on studies.

 

Feds should step up to pay for studies and 40% of construction cost since it will be interstate.

 

 

S/F,

CEYA!

[Roadcruiser1]

Why would we need to do that. The isn't a commuter/passenger rail. Amtrak/LIRR/MNRR/PATH is and they have the right to build high speed rail. The is a subway line not a railroad line. Your posts belong on the Amtrak and the MNRR/LIRR/PATH thread.

[Tokkemon]

Obama should get involved with this and have it fully Federally funded to be sort of a job stimulus at the same time helping the communities, but it should be done this way: Convert the entire 7 train line to a high speed magnet train. Queens could be much quieter with a magnet train. If there is a problem with high speed and curves, see if they can be corrected, or better yet, build it under ground. Then extend the 7 in both directions and ultimately make it a giant trunk line with multiple lines. 1 line can be an airport line going to all three major airports with only major stops in between like Times Square, Grand Central, etc., and then continue into Long Island, and have the trains be specially build to hold luggage. Have another branch built to go with the proposal that they have now to NJ, but it can end up branching out to college point on the other end. I know this will never happen, but it would truly be the best thing they could do and would help many people. If they did this, how many thousands less people would drive per day? I know I would take the train to the airport this way. It would also clean up the air and make travel much easier while clearing up traffic for the NJ auto tunnels. Again, it would never happen because it would be the right thing to do. Also leave the terminals in NJ and NY sort of open ended for possible futre extensions to Philly and Washington DC and beyond, and Connecticut and Boston and beyond the other way, maybe even into Canada. Something like this could be a revolution to American transportation like the the highway system was when Eisenhower did with the country when he was president.

 

You do realize this isn't Hong Kong right?

[Grand Concourse]

First they need to replace the Steinway Tunnel and make the line B Division. Otherwise, ridership will prove to be too much.

 

You read my mind. The should be a B division line and run B division cars. The main obstruction are those tubes. How many more decades can they keep having trains accomdate the tubes than have the tunnels accomodate the trains? Replacing those tubes should be more of a priority than sending the into Jersey.

Not that I have anything against this idea, but there are more important needs for NYC than a NJ-NYC connection. Plus who's going to pay for repairs to the trains if anything happens on the NJ end? I think the subways should stay within its limits.

Let Path extend to Manhattan. They already have a 'stub' at Hoboken. Extend a new line from there.

[Grand Concourse]

Obama should get involved with this and have it fully Federally funded to be sort of a job stimulus at the same time helping the communities, .

 

I agree with you only to that point. Stimulus money would be a good thing than to expect one state to fund the total costs of the Hudson River tunnel. If it is so important, the federal government should foot the bill.

[Blatherskite]

Why would we need to do that. The isn't a commuter/passenger rail. Amtrak/LIRR/MNRR/PATH is and they have the right to build high speed rail. The is a subway line not a railroad line. Your posts belong on the Amtrak and the MNRR/LIRR/PATH thread.

 

And you are not a city nor a state planner so your posts belong to the I wish I had a girlfriend thread.

 

You do realize this isn't Hong Kong right?

 

You do realize your response is very obnoxious right?

[Blatherskite]

Let Path extend to Manhattan. They already have a 'stub' at Hoboken. Extend a new line from there.

 

The PATH is already in Manhattan from WTC to 33 street along 6th Avenue. If possible, why not just see if that can be extended past 33 street and curve west back into NJ?

[Grand Concourse]

But that doesn't solve the problem of an extra river tunnel to carry the people thru. I'm saying rather than extend the into Jersey, they may as well create a third branch of the Path into Manhattan. Maybe have it run parallel with the under 11th Av to the PA bus terminal at 42nd/8th Av.

[Juelz4309]

I can't understand the science behind these projects...Clearly were in dyer need of the ARC tunnel and they let the gov kill it...Personally he should be voted out of office for it lol.....Anywanyway why can't we simply swich gears and shift all the money towards this new 7 extension?? Its paid for..we get increased capacity..evryones happy.....environmental reviews blow my mind because its a waste of time and money..who gives a flip if a few birds don't come back or a few fishes move away?? If God intended animals to rule they would!...Politics is another issue..why do they have som much say? The only parties involved should be anyone directly contributing to its construction.Period....and also we need to hire better contractors to move things faster people get turned off by futureristic dates...like 2025 2030..my God does it reall take 10 years to extend a line 5 or 6 miles? If this project ever gets finsihed it wud be 2025 at best..poor 2 ave been under construction for some 50 plus years and a single sation hasn't opened yet..The mta should take a trip overseas to more progressive countries and take some notes.....The chinese accomplish in 10 years what takes us 100 years to do!...ill be lucky to live to ride this extension if ever..I say the same for the 2 ave full lenght subway! .....In conclusion....build it fast,build it now,and worry about the cost later!!!!

[upperharlemline4ever]

There is no legal reason why NYCTA can't go to NJ. If there is a PATH issue, do a crew change at the new 11th Avenue-Javits Center. Do we need this line, of course not but these politicians are thinking of a way around the ARC tunnel problem. As far as those of you who think Gov Christie should be removed, think again. He was right to turn down the remainder of the project without knowing what the costs and cost overruns were going to be. Is the ARC tunnel needed, of course it is but to ask someone to commit to a project without knowing the cost, is rediculous. Imagine you go to buy a house and you're told it's going to cost you $500,000 and then you're told but the cost may actually go up to $700,000 before it's done and perhaps even more. Wouldn't you think twice before proceeding with the project?

[RailRunRob]

Im for the expansion.. It's all about moving people and infastucture. Understood that there are many parts of the city that need better or improved transportation. with the expansion of the 7 line going and having that momentum and if the redtape can be cut having mutable parties foot the bill might just push it over the hump. JerseyCity, Hoboken,UnionCity and Weehawken what makes them that much different then a Williamsburg, LongIsland City, Astoria or Brooklyn Heights ? Where talking no more then 4 miles into Jersey. and the Population shift over the last decade defiantly supports ridership. NJ killing the ARC project was unbelievable price shouldn't be a issue for anything as important as a major infrastructure project.. The region's growth depends and to move the ever expanding population. Every bit of infrastructure is aging and being pushed to capacity not only on the city or regional level but nationally.There needs to be a major shift in the way we think and our foresight on the subject transportation be it new Subway,LRT,BRT or Interstate in the city and beyond. We need solutions,plans and execution. Or were going to have major trouble.

[LRG]

do a crew change at the new 11th Avenue-Javits Center.

 

But it's called the New York City Subway for a reason!...

[EE Broadway Local]

But it's called the New York City Subway for a reason!...

True, but its' also New York City Transit Authority (or M.T.A. New York City Transit Authority) and we've had the S89 (S89) for a couple of years now (though the S89 does make only one New Jersey stop).

[RailRunRob]

Maybe we should stop thinking about it on a city level.. People need to get in and out to and from.. Money needs to be made. why should we limit major transport (Subway) at a County Line or even a State Line. If there a rule then rewrite it, Different jurisdiction unify them. needs to be some outward thinking.