Experts say plans to extend 7 line subway to New Jersey are a dead end, feds won't fund it

[Infamous85]

reasons why you don't know what you're talking about.

 

1. As a resident of NYC, on top of my state and federal taxes, I pay a CITY income tax, a city sales tax and a whole bunch of other city taxes.

 

2.The City, as the de jure owner of the subway system, is respocible for puting in funding on top of the MTA's money.

 

3.this money CAN'T leave the city, unless it's to the city's benefit. This is why NYCTA buses can't make more than one stop outside the city, and why LIB operates "closed door" in queens. Nassua county doesn't fund NYCT, and NYC doesn't fund MSBA

 

the tax you're talking about is a state sales tax which can be used in any county the tax is collected in. In the case of the New Haven Line, the MTA is a contract operator at CT's request, Hartford pays the MTA to do it, no diffrent than paying First group, Amtrak or Veolia.

 

New Jersey doesn't collect this tax, New Jersey doesn't give the MTA any funding. Fares alone can't cover the costs of such a tunnel.

 

The Q5 & Q85 make like 6 stops outside the city and those are to the benefit of Nassau County. It's no big deal since SE Queens & SW Nassau is basically the same area. The Q113 limited (not NYCTA though) runs through Nassau County making stops as it's the sole bus route along that street. I think it's a similar setup with the N6 and other N-routes near Hillside Ave.

 

Idk, it'd be nice to have a transit system not defined by borders, a nice seamless system.

[RailRunRob]

The Q5 & Q85 make like 6 stops outside the city and those are to the benefit of Nassau County. It's no big deal since SE Queens & SW Nassau is basically the same area. The Q113 limited (not NYCTA though) runs through Nassau County making stops as it's the sole bus route along that street. I think it's a similar setup with the N6 and other N-routes near Hillside Ave.

 

Idk, it'd be nice to have a transit system not defined by borders, a nice seamless system.

 

Infamous it's going to have to move in that direction. The system 50-60 years out if that.. Intercity and Urban will be a seamless.

[Trainmaster5]

reasons why you don't know what you're talking about.

 

1. As a resident of NYC, on top of my state and federal taxes, I pay a CITY income tax, a city sales tax and a whole bunch of other city taxes.

 

2.The City, as the de jure owner of the subway system, is respocible for puting in funding on top of the MTA's money.

 

3.this money CAN'T leave the city, unless it's to the city's benefit. This is why NYCTA buses can't make more than one stop outside the city, and why LIB operates "closed door" in queens. Nassua county doesn't fund NYCT, and NYC doesn't fund MSBA

 

the tax you're talking about is a state sales tax which can be used in any county the tax is collected in. In the case of the New Haven Line, the MTA is a contract operator at CT's request, Hartford pays the MTA to do it, no diffrent than paying First group, Amtrak or Veolia.

 

New Jersey doesn't collect this tax, New Jersey doesn't give the MTA any funding. Fares alone can't cover the costs of such a tunnel.

 

While I'm in agreement with parts of your response I was trying to point out it's a bi-state and/or federal determination project in the long run and the NYCT itself is a small player in this game. I don't even think the NYCT owns the rolling stock anymore, but the rather the does. I really don't remember but I think the PA bought(funded) the R62 or R62A cars not NYC and I believe some buses came through the same channel. So NYCT may also be just an operator and not an "owner" as part of the bigger umbrella. But let's carry on with the overall discussion pro or con or anything else in between.

[Kamen Rider]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[Kamen Rider]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[East New York]

City taxes, nothing. Anyone who buys anything in the area serviced by the MTA pays a 1/4 percent additional sales tax. Anyone who buys any taxable item in NYC, Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, Putnam, Dutchess, Rockland and Orange counties pays this tax. This means anyone, whether they live in New York State, New Jersey or Connecticut. Addtionally, people who don't live in these areas but who use the system pay a fare to ride the trains. People who come to New York use services of the city and state and do not pay income tax but yet are provided with the service. NYC Police or NYC FD don't inquire of a person where they live to see if they can provide service to them. I'm sure NY will try to pony up some money from NJ for the service in much the same manner that CT pays the MTA for operating and maintaining the Metro-North lines in that state.

 

reasons why you don't know what you're talking about.

 

1. As a resident of NYC, on top of my state and federal taxes, I pay a CITY income tax, a city sales tax and a whole bunch of other city taxes.

 

2.The City, as the de jure owner of the subway system, is respocible for puting in funding on top of the MTA's money.

 

3.this money CAN'T leave the city, unless it's to the city's benefit. This is why NYCTA buses can't make more than one stop outside the city, and why LIB operates "closed door" in queens. Nassua county doesn't fund NYCT, and NYC doesn't fund MSBA

 

the tax you're talking about is a state sales tax which can be used in any county the tax is collected in. In the case of the New Haven Line, the MTA is a contract operator at CT's request, Hartford pays the MTA to do it, no diffrent than paying First group, Amtrak or Veolia.

 

New Jersey doesn't collect this tax, New Jersey doesn't give the MTA any funding. Fares alone can't cover the costs of such a tunnel.

 

I have to agree and say he does know what he is talking about to a certain extent. Case in point: the S79, and the countless NJT routes that come into the city. I also agree with Kamen on the closed door policy. But MTA is a state owned agency, so its not too hard to get around certain laws, and amend them for certain purposes. Another example being the SBS buses with blue flashing lights. It's technically illegal, but allowed to continue. Therefore, my point is that in order for this to even be considered, means somebody already took all the legal ramifications into account.

[Trainmaster5]

the physical system is city property. The MTA's control over the TA is an akward araignment anyway.

 

To take it to level of who is really in charge of what in NYC just remember the terms " Financial Control Board" and "home rule". These, like the itself, show that the State of New York, not the city ,controls what happens(ed) in NYC. The city can not even raise it's sales tax without the permission of the state legislature. The NYC Transit Authority, nee Board of Transportation are dead entities, whose properties were ceded to the state years ago. An awkward arrangement is putting it mildly. IIRC the railroads property falls under a different, federal law, where if the LIRR stops running trains along a line the property reverts back to the original private owners, not NYC, Nassau, or Suffolk. Let's leave that to the lawyers though. I'm sure that the "powers that be" know the legal points better than you or I do.

[KNIGHTRIDER3:16]

Port Auth Should take this one since it's in NJ to begin with plus just think of who ever gets this done , They would make that money back right? I was thinking the 7 should go but if you really ask me Path or NJT should take this and combine the Resources they got and get this done .

With the 7 tunnel getting done it would be smart to finish it NJ but with A Line Merger track that can switch and cont to NJ via this new tunnel

I really though Amtrak was gonna take this since that would cut into the already Hudson Track they got but that's just. Thought.

[metsfan]

As far as physical track, railroad and subways are the same.

 

The basic design might be the same, but the loads are way different, as are the techniques used to fasten the rails to whatever they sit on be it concrete panels or wood ties. Also, you won't find a main line passenger railroad track with those impossible curves, even the shorter IRT cars struggle with a turn radius here and there. Tightest revenue curve on a heavy rail FRA passenger railroad i know of is in elizabeth NJ, and that has a speed restriction on it.

 

The way to go about doing things in light of this ARC-may-never-be-built setback is simple but broad reaching fold. Hear me out....

 

In no particular order:

 

12 MLV cars on (NJT) trains moved by ALP-46a, double up if one isn't available on an original 46 for the HEP, if it's a ALP-44 put 10 comets on it, if it's arrows, 8, 10 or 12 depending on how much of those are available.

 

Move several MidTown Direct trains back to hoboken during peak hours.

 

Have a north jersey coast line timetable that has diesel trains leaving from hoboken going to bay head, alternating with electric trains that stop at long branch, plus increase bay head shuttle service to meet those electric trains coming from hoboken.

 

Overhaul the comet 3's and use them with the longer and/or more frequent peak hours trains.

 

Extend PATH from 33rd to 41st street along 7th ave.

 

Give all PATH trains on the newark to wtc line 10 cars.

 

Expand stations to handle these 10 car trains.

 

More frequent bus service to/from and between newark, jersey city, patterson, bayonne, elizabeth, the amboys, and PABT during peak hours.

 

For any who take the ferry after riding to long branch from the lower half of the coast line, shuttle bus so more can use it sans car.

 

Give (NJT) equal priority for station stops during peak hours on the NEC.

 

Allow express trains to go around delayed local trains.

 

Let (NJT) passengers board amtrak trains when there are incidents to allow people to not be stranded. I'm thinking (NJT) can bring people to/from the 2 outer stations from/to trenton, and from inner stations to newark or metropark where amtrak can pick them up. I think this would ease a lot of stressful tension when passengers get upset about having their options cut short when there is a problem on the line or in nyp etc.

 

More acela stops in trenton.

 

At trenton... rebuild the 3rd formerly island platform as a high island platform with 2 tracks, and put a yard track off to the south. Allow peak trains to wait there vs wait for a slot to cross the river Would also allow trains to turn in the station vs need to go to yard.

 

Expand county yard to accommodate 8 12 car trains, a proper waiting room and ADA compliant high platforms. This would allow arrows not being used to not take up so much space at hoboken's yards mid day & weekends and allow for future service increases.

 

Tax break for having 4+ people carpool in one vehicle.

 

Upgrade all NEC tracks between Portal and Fair as well as the wires to allow 135 mph operation on all tracks within practicality. This would allow traffic to clear quickly and not back up. The top speed for tracks 1 and 4 are currently 110 mph max, and tracks 2 and 3 have restrictions here and there.

 

Renovate Newark Penn, fix any issues with settling and concrete and open the "outside" platforms on tracks 1 and 2, refresh the trackage and wire for track A. This would effectively increase capacity & max TPH there.

 

Build more yard space at harrison and out the west end of newark penn to store more trains for PATH so that intervals can be increased especially once the new signal system comes online.

 

Keep the new 2 track span at portal bridge in the construction plan.

 

That's all i can think of now, but all of them, to me at least, make way more sense than some cockeyed plan to extend the subway into NJ. As several others have stated, the subway needs to go to more parts of NYC before any added anything paid for by NY goes to NJ.

 

- A

[Tokkemon]

........

 

 

Orrrrr, we could just leave things as they are and be just fine.

[Roadcruiser1]

Many of ideas and proposals I have read from the people are stupid. Converting the , selling the , and turning the into some super route. Come on this is the not the Queens Super Express. The least the should be extended to is Eastern Queens to help the people of New York that only have cars for their daily transporation. New Jersey would be last on the list for the . Also for the people that want the subway to leave the 5 boroughs there is a reason why we have the PATH, LIRR, Amtrak, and the MNRR. They take you out of New York. The New York City Subway serves New York City Only that is why it is called the New York City Subway, and it well never leave New York City.

[Urbanfortitude]

Many of ideas and proposals I have read from the people are stupid. Converting the , selling the , and turning the into some super route. Come on this is the not the Queens Super Express. The least the should be extended to is Eastern Queens to help the people of New York that only have cars for their daily transporation. New Jersey would be last on the list for the . Also for the people that want the subway to leave the 5 boroughs there is a reason why we have the PATH, LIRR, Amtrak, and the MNRR. They take you out of New York. The New York City Subway serves New York City Only that is why it is called the New York City Subway, and it well never leave New York City.

 

You mean Flushing isn't eastern Queens? :confused:

 

I do see the point though. There's a lot of open space in Queens that could do with extended subway service.

[LRG]

Many of ideas and proposals I have read from the people are stupid. Converting the , selling the , and turning the into some super route. Come on this is the not the Queens Super Express. The least the should be extended to is Eastern Queens to help the people of New York that only have cars for their daily transporation. New Jersey would be last on the list for the . Also for the people that want the subway to leave the 5 boroughs there is a reason why we have the PATH, LIRR, Amtrak, and the MNRR. They take you out of New York. The New York City Subway serves New York City Only that is why it is called the New York City Subway, and it well never leave New York City.

 

So how come New York City Buses leaves city limits (the Q5/Q85/Q111/Q113) and state limits (the S89)?

[FamousNYLover]

I think not only PANY&NJ, I think (NJT), Academy Bus, Coach USA, Carefree Bus, New York Waterway, Decamp, Lakeland Buses will join fight against this proposed.

 

If this was built, New York Waterway and other services might also loose business.

[Trainmaster5]

Many of ideas and proposals I have read from the people are stupid. Converting the , selling the , and turning the into some super route. Come on this is the not the Queens Super Express. The least the should be extended to is Eastern Queens to help the people of New York that only have cars for their daily transporation. New Jersey would be last on the list for the . Also for the people that want the subway to leave the 5 boroughs there is a reason why we have the PATH, LIRR, Amtrak, and the MNRR. They take you out of New York. The New York City Subway serves New York City Only that is why it is called the New York City Subway, and it well never leave New York City.

 

Roadcruiser1, slow down and take a deep breath. While I agree that some of the proposals on the board are way out there remember that WE didn't float the idea in the first place.. There are people way up the ladder who hash these trial balloons out and it is they, not forum members, who make these determinations. Money rules in this town and always has. That's why you have a man sitting in City Hall for a third term no matter what the people said, TWICE. As far as a subway line to NJ, Yonkers, or Getty Square in Yonkers who is going to stop that from happening? Not you or I I'll bet. I'd venture a guess that if all the forum members pooled our money we still couldn't buy our way into the room where these ideas are thought up. IIRC it was the emperor for life and his minions who broached the idea in the first place. Did they ask the general public? We all know the answer to that, don't we. As far as the New York City Subway goes the city used to have one. The State of New York has one now. Personally I'm waiting for the SAS and a subway connection to Staten Island. People in that borough pay taxes and still don't have a direct rail connection to the other boroughs to this day. There are people in the outer boroughs who have never had, or lost a rail connection, to the CBD of Manhattan. Think 3rd Avenue El or the eastern end of the old Jamaica Avenue line. Even the LIRR abandoned stations within the city limits. I think the only way any other transit rail improvements will ever come to NYC and the metro area will have to come from a regional authority, not the Emperor, or the . Remember that every system you named USED to be a private business, concerned with only themselves, but that approach failed in most cases. That's why I think that any improvements to the NYC subway or bus networks will have to come under the umbrella of the PANY&NJ or a similar organization with bi-state clout. Let's face it, most of the U.S. congress doesn't want to give a dime to mass transit or inter-city transit because it's a big city problem. Boston, NYC, Philly, Baltimore, and Washington, DC.. All Amtrak cities on the NEC. If Amtrak has to beg for money do you really think NYC is going to see any ? I think a regional approach is the only way to squeeze money from the feds for any capital improvements to ANY transit system going forward. While they may not fund this particular extension I think that the days of MARTA,SEPTA, or PATH-(NJT)- or MBTA doing anything alone are over. Just my opinion though and not a knock on you , Roadcruiser1.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

That would be serious affect on PATH is right. People would pay $2.50 rather then $5.50 to get to Manhattan. If this ever happens ask New Jersey for their money too since it's going to benefit them too. Anyway I was looking around and found out this guy named VanShnookenRaggen made a map of a extension to New Jersey. Well to me the map seems to be following the right course to the (MTA)'s proposal.

 

Vanshnookenraggen's proposal is different from City Hall's in that he has the train turning west at 23rd Street and making landfall at 12th Street in Hoboken, then turning south into downtown Hoboken and Jersey City, then finally turning west toward Journal Square. It wouldn't serve Secaucus, unlike City Hall's proposal. My guess is the City's plan would turn west somewhere between 34th and 23rd Streets and continue due west towards Secaucus, with potential stops in Weehawken and Union City. That would be better, because those areas currently have just the north-south, intrastate Hudson Bergen Light Rail which functions as a feeder service to the PATH trains in Hoboken and Jersey City. With a extension, they would not have to travel as far south for rail service into Manhattan or deal with NJT buses going through (and getting stuck in) the Lincoln Tunnel.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

And if this plan somehow takes a left turn and goes through, i am sure PATH would get invovled and push to stop it. New Jersey Transit wouldnt like it either.

If PATH wants to do that, then they should build a new trans-Hudson line in the same general vicinity as the proposed extension. But they would have a very tough time building a new subway under 42nd Street with the and the 42nd Street already there. They could go under 34th, but then they'd have to clear all the north-south subway lines, the existing PATH line and the water tunnels. But build something. Building nothing cannot be an option.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Many of ideas and proposals I have read from the people are stupid. Converting the , selling the , and turning the into some super route. Come on this is the not the Queens Super Express. The least the should be extended to is Eastern Queens to help the people of New York that only have cars for their daily transporation. New Jersey would be last on the list for the . Also for the people that want the subway to leave the 5 boroughs there is a reason why we have the PATH, LIRR, Amtrak, and the MNRR. They take you out of New York. The New York City Subway serves New York City Only that is why it is called the New York City Subway, and it well never leave New York City.

 

The Chicago Transit Authority doesn't serve Chicago only. The London Underground doesn't serve London only. Why can't the New York City Subway leave New York City for a few stops?

[T to Dyre Avenue]

You mean Flushing isn't eastern Queens? :confused:

 

I do see the point though. There's a lot of open space in Queens that could do with extended subway service.

 

Totally agree. I would welcome a extension out here in Bayside as I've posted before.

[Kamen Rider]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[lilbluefoxie]

Totally agree. I would welcome a extension out here in Bayside as I've posted before.

 

Eastern Queens is not gunna go for a extension. They have the LIRR Port Washington branch for commuters and trips to the city, and plenty of bus routes to Flushing. Besides, most of those neighborhoods in Northeast Queens are rich neighborhoods where everyone drives a car, I dont see them giving up their cars or welcoming an extension of the Flushing EL in their neighborhoods.

[rr4567]

I thought it was New York City Transit, not NYC&NJ Transit. If people from NJ want to get over here, they have PATH.

[Kacie Jane]

Eastern Queens is not gunna go for a extension. They have the LIRR Port Washington branch for commuters and trips to the city, and plenty of bus routes to Flushing. Besides, most of those neighborhoods in Northeast Queens are rich neighborhoods where everyone drives a car, I dont see them giving up their cars or welcoming an extension of the Flushing EL in their neighborhoods.

 

The descends underground at Main Street, so it stands to reason that any eastern extension would be built underground. So granted the construction would be a pain in the @$$, but once it's done, they wouldn't have the ugly el structure to complain about.

 

Plus, consider the possibility that the reason everyone owns cars there is because they don't have convenient transit options, not necessarily the other way around. Rich or not, some portion of them would probably welcome the opportunity to get to Manhattan without having to drive or transfer from bus to subway.

 

But my $0.02 cents on the extensions? I think their both "good" ideas, but low-priority ones (with the New Jersey side being much lower), and really there's no point in even thinking about them until the SAS is done.

[Alargule]

I thought it was New York City Transit, not NYC&NJ Transit. If people from NJ want to get over here, they have PATH.

 

Then we change it to NYC&NJ Transit for the sake of it. Geez...

[St Louis Car 09]

Good Idea in theory.If that was to ever happen,Port Authority would be livid!!!.Not to mention adding more mileage and wear and tear to the trains.A little perk nwould be charge extra for NJ bound trains only.This idea would be good for Jersey residents who are met fans.:tup: