Queens Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[Via Garibaldi 8]

But the parts north have the BM5. I'd rather add more stops on the BM5 over having QM16/QM17's stop during off peak hours at certain areas (I feel that when SBS/BRT starts on Woodhaven, they would end up doing that anyways). The BM5/QM15 30 minute combined headway is good enough for Woodhaven Blvd, there's really no need for more frequent service than that. 

 

QM15 service has gotten significantly more reliable during the week, since the beginning of the year (due to the new schedule). The new schedule now requires 4 buses instead of 3 buses on weekdays (during off peak hours), since no bus loops around Manhattan and back to Queens anymore. They got rid of that starting from this pick, and gives 37-51 minutes to DH to 34 Street. This is great in the PM, because the buses are more evenly spaced from each other now, and while bunching still occurs, it doesn't happen as often. There wouldn't be any delays on the Queens side due to late buses (some trips went back up again as Midtown buses, but were already late, and by the time they got to Midtown, they were sometimes 15-20 minutes late. Buses to midtown are now more reliable during the off-peak hour.

 

Weekend service was unreliable, but the Summer pick basically solved most issues on the weekend QM15. Since they have 4 hours to go from Lindenwood and back. The only times where service will be unreliable will be whenever they do QMT work, and during Christmas time. Yes, there's still some periods in the afternoon where they run behind schedule, but it isn't by a lot.

I would certainly also reroute the QM17 to serve Arverne-by-the-Sea, especially since there would be no stops on the current route missed (however, the stop at Rockaway Beach Blvd/ B 67 Street would have to be moved onto B 67 Street at Rockaway Beach Blvd).

There would still be 30+ minutes for recovery at Arverne. QM15's wouldn't be so behind schedule to that point. Arverne is a small neighborhood, so I don't know how one neighborhood would be able to support the entire ridership base. Look at the QM10 to see how that proposal would turn out (and it would be worse, since it's on the weekend).

Well the question is how long would each trip take then? I mean you're talking about at least a two hour ride each way from to end.  That's pretty costly.  It would make more sense to do some sort of analysis first to see if there's enough ridership for such an extension or QM17 service to begin with.  I think the QM15 would be better served to focus on its current ridership base which continues to grow.  I don't see how you could expect a QM17 route not to serve parts of Cross Bay Blvd and Woodhaven Blvd (to some extent, not as far as where the BM5 runs but still).  I just don't see tons of ridership coming from Averne like that.  It would have to serve more than that for it to work.  What other dense complexes exist aside from Averne-By-The-Sea where people can actually afford the fare?  In other words co-ops and condos....  Gotta be honest... Just because an express bus runs through some areas with dense housing means nothing if most people can't afford the fare.  Just look at the Concourse with the BxM4... Very few condos or co-ops with all of those buildings, and that's where most of the usage comes from...

Edited February 5, 2016 by Via Garibaldi 8

[checkmatechamp13]

But I'm sure they would argue that service would become unreliable from such an extension and I would agree, given how unreliable the QM15 is on weekends, especially in the afternoon.  If Averne-By-The-Sea is so up and coming as you appear to be claiming, it should be stable enough to have the QM17 serve it on weekends, as opposed to stealing the service that Lindenwood & Howard Beach residents currently enjoy.

 

I never said anything about up-and-coming. From the time it was built, it was always a middle-class development. 

 

"Stealing" service implies that buses are going to be routed away from Lindenwood. And having the QM17 run on weekends would be like having the old BxM7B running on weekends (the one that ran straight from Manhattan to City Island). But for that matter, since you talk about Neponsit and the QM16, why doesn't that run on the weekends?

 

And yeah, the MTA is always known for making the right decisions regarding its routes. 

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Well the question is how long would each trip take then? I mean you're talking about at least a two hour ride each way from to end.  That's pretty costly.  It would make more sense to do some sort of analysis first to see if there's enough ridership for such an extension or QM17 service to begin with.  I think the QM15 would be better served to focus on its current ridership base which continues to grow.  I don't see how you could expect a QM17 route not to serve parts of Cross Bay Blvd and Woodhaven Blvd (to some extent, not as far as where the BM5 runs but still).  I just don't see tons of ridership coming from Averne like that.  It would have to serve more than that for it to work.  What other dense complexes exist aside from Averne-By-The-Sea where people can actually afford the fare?  In other words co-ops and condos....  Gotta be honest... Just because an express bus runs through some areas with dense housing means nothing if most people can't afford the fare.  Just look at the Concourse with the BxM4... Very few condos or co-ops with all of those buildings, and that's where most of the usage comes from...

The entire trip would take 82 to 85 minutes from Arverne to 57 Street. From 34 Street to Arverne, the entire trip would be 75 to 90 minutes. As a comparison, that's the length of a typical weekend QM2 or QM5 trip. There would be added cost of $98,000 annually (approximate, since I used NYCT cost per hour, which is higher than MTABC). The two hour estimate you're thinking of comes from what I said about the current QM15 taking 4 hours to make one round trip to Lindenwood. Drivers are given a 60 min+ break at Lindenwood, so its really less. This maximizes the resources used (with 4 buses, serving more areas). With the 20-28 minute runtime to DH back to 34 Street, the longest trip possible using all three maximum runtime would be 203 minutes, still giving 37 minutes of recovery at Arverne and break time if it to go back. However, with the scheduled runs, it would actually be 192 minutes.

 

There are several co-ops scattered a block north or south of Rockaway Beach Blvd, in the low B. 80s, and you have that whole set of Apartment complexes (They're called Dayton Towrers, or at least that's what Google says) on Rpckaway Beach Blvd in the B.70's and low B 80s. Arverne is pretty transit dependent, and they have a bunch middle class residencies, in the B 60s, and they're still building more houses. 

Edited February 5, 2016 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I never said anything about up-and-coming. From the time it was built, it was always a middle-class development. 

 

"Stealing" service implies that buses are going to be routed away from Lindenwood. And having the QM17 run on weekends would be like having the old BxM7B running on weekends (the one that ran straight from Manhattan to City Island). But for that matter, since you talk about Neponsit and the QM16, why doesn't that run on the weekends?

 

And yeah, the MTA is always known for making the right decisions regarding its routes. 

Could've fooled me.  So then it was always the same middle-class development why would it only now need weekend service? 

 

Yes, I'm not implying it.  I'm saying that Lindenwood would have crappier service by having it run that further south.  

 

As for the QM16, the isn't going to run one or the other.  They would have to provide the whole peninsula the service that it gets during the week.  Can't see it being any other way.  While we're on the topic of the QM16, I don't see it getting that much usage either on weekends, even though it is quite affluent.  Mainly homeowners there who drive if anything on weekends, so there would have to be some major reason for them to change and suddenly take the QM16, and I don't see those folks wanting Manhattan like that.  They live in Neponsit because it is far out, expensive, and hard to get to.  

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The entire trip would take 82 to 85 minutes from Arverne to 57 Street. From 34 Street to Arverne, the entire trip would be 75 to 90 minutes. As a comparison, that's the length of a typical weekend QM2 or QM5 trip. There would be added cost of $98,000 annually (approximate, since I used NYCT cost per hour, which is higher than MTABC). The two hour estimate you're thinking of comes from what I said about the current QM15 taking 4 hours to make one round trip to Lindenwood. Drivers are given a 60 min+ break at Lindenwood, so its really less. This maximizes the resources used (with 4 buses, serving more areas). With the 20-28 minute runtime to DH back to 34 Street, the longest trip possible using all three maximum runtime would be 203 minutes, still giving 37 minutes of recovery at Arverne and break time if it to go back. However, with the scheduled runs, it would actually be 192 minutes.

The QM2 is a nice comparison for run time but nothing more.  The thing that makes the QM2 successful is that there are several condos and co-ops that it serves, which gives it a substantial amount of riders to make it successful in addition to the folks that use it in Beechhurst, etc... There are several complexes in Bay Terrace alone, and then you have the Mitchell Gardens complex in Flushing served by the QM20 during the week which sees usage among other areas.  That's why the re-routed it on weekends to serve the more residential parts of Whitestone and Flushing.

Edited February 6, 2016 by Via Garibaldi 8

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

The QM2 is a nice comparison for run time but nothing more.  The thing that makes the QM2 successful is that there are several condos and co-ops that it serves, which gives it a substantial amount of riders to make it successful in addition to the folks that use it in Beechhurst, etc... There are several complexes in Bay Terrace alone, and then you have the Mitchell Gardens complex in Flushing served by the QM20 during the week which sees usage among other areas.  That's why the re-routed it on weekends to serve the more residential parts of Whitestone and Flushing.

Yes I know that, that's in refrence to you believing that a one way trip would be 2 hours (which it won't). There's several developments (like I mentioned in my edited post) in that area, which is slated to grow. Since buses pass there anyways, it wouldn't cost so much to expand the service to serve Howard Beach, Broad Channel, Hammels, and Arverne. I purposely chose trips in which there would be enough recovery time to extend the service where there would still be a substantial amount of recovery (47 minutes is still a lot of recovery time). Yes, I know QM15 buses run behind on the current weekend schedule, but I have a hard time believing they are 45 minutes or so behind schedule. 10-15 minutes is usually the maximum amount of time it is behind schedule, if it is behind schedule. Midtown buses will often run behind schedule, but catch up. The Queens buses is where these 10-15 minute delays occur (and if it runs behind, it will stay behind).

Edited February 6, 2016 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[checkmatechamp13]

Could've fooled me.  So then it was always the same middle-class development why would it only now need weekend service? 

 

Yes, because the MTA is always known for being so prompt with addressing the needs of new developments.  That's why bus service to the Staten Island Mall started almost 10 years after it opened. That's why they were so quick to give the X1 overnight service and the X17 Sunday service. That's why they were so quick to give the Q77 Sunday service (during a time period when the neighborhoods along the route were actually losing population)

 

Yes, I'm not implying it.  I'm saying that Lindenwood would have crappier service by having it run that further south.  

 

Lindenwood would have the same amount of QM15 buses passing through the neighborhood that it currently does. Therefore, nothing is being "stolen" from them.

 

As for crappier service, that's like saying the X17 extension to Tottenville made service crappier on the main route. As ridiculous as the extension was, and as little ridership that it garnered, buses are no less reliable on the main portion of the X17 than they were before the extension.

 

As for the QM16, the   isn't going to run one or the other.  They would have to provide the whole peninsula the service that it gets during the week.  Can't see it being any other way.

 

Who says that?

 

In any case, extending the QM15 to the Rockaways is different than running the QM16/17 as standalone routes. It's a lot cheaper for starters. As for Neponsit, I only brought that up, in reference to this:

 

Sarcasm 101.... You being a QM15 rider, I'm shocked that you even propose such a thing.  Extending the QM15 to Neponsit I get but Averne?? lol

 

Plus, Arverne is a little bit closer to the Cross Bay Bridge than Neponsit, which would make it that much cheaper to operate.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Yes I know that, that's in refrence to you believing that a one way trip would be 2 hours (which it won't). There's several developments (like I mentioned in my edited post) in that area, which is slated to grow. Since buses pass there anyways, it wouldn't cost so much to expand the service to serve Howard Beach, Broad Channel, Hammels, and Arverne. I purposely chose trips in which there would be enough recovery time to extend the service where there would still be a substantial amount of recovery (47 minutes is still a lot of recovery time). Yes, I know QM15 buses run behind on the current weekend schedule, but I have a hard time believing they are 45 minutes or so behind schedule. 10-15 minutes is usually the maximum amount of time it is behind schedule, if it is behind schedule. Midtown buses will often run behind schedule, but catch up. The Queens buses is where these 10-15 minute delays occur (and if it runs behind, it will stay behind).

Well then the question is how much ridership do you think those complexes would get and would it be enough to keep the service afloat?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Yes, because the MTA is always known for being so prompt with addressing the needs of new developments.  That's why bus service to the Staten Island Mall started almost 10 years after it opened. That's why they were so quick to give the X1 overnight service and the X17 Sunday service. That's why they were so quick to give the Q77 Sunday service (during a time period when the neighborhoods along the route were actually losing population)

 

 

Lindenwood would have the same amount of QM15 buses passing through the neighborhood that it currently does. Therefore, nothing is being "stolen" from them.

 

As for crappier service, that's like saying the X17 extension to Tottenville made service crappier on the main route. As ridiculous as the extension was, and as little ridership that it garnered, buses are no less reliable on the main portion of the X17 than they were before the extension.

 

 

Who says that?

 

In any case, extending the QM15 to the Rockaways is different than running the QM16/17 as standalone routes. It's a lot cheaper for starters. As for Neponsit, I only brought that up, in reference to this:

 

 

Plus, Arverne is a little bit closer to the Cross Bay Bridge than Neponsit, which would make it that much cheaper to operate.

1. Well you're talking about NYCT vs Bus which is like night and day from a cost standpoint, since the gets reimbursed from the city.  It's only natural that it would take so long for the X1 to get over night service.

 

2. That's not like saying anything. Those X17 extensions are off-peak during the week.  Furthermore, the QM15 isn't the X17 and each route has its own problems that are unique. The longer a route is, the more likely it is to suffer from delays.  Just the way it is.

 

3. I say that.  What makes Averne so special that it should get weekend service, but Neponsit wouldn't?  

 

4. Lindenwood would have the same amount of buses but perhaps even more unreliable service so their service is indeed being stolen in the sense that the bus no longer would be there to primarily serve them.

[checkmatechamp13]

1. Well you're talking about NYCT vs Bus which is like night and day from a cost standpoint, since the gets reimbursed from the city.  It's only natural that it would take so long for the X1 to get over night service.

 

2. That's not like saying anything. Those X17 extensions are off-peak during the week.  Furthermore, the QM15 isn't the X17 and each route has its own problems that are unique. The longer a route is, the more likely it is to suffer from delays.  Just the way it is.

 

3. I say that.  What makes Averne so special that it should get weekend service, but Neponsit wouldn't?  

 

4. Lindenwood would have the same amount of buses but perhaps even more unreliable service so their service is indeed being stolen in the sense that the bus no longer would be there to primarily serve them.

 

1. Alright, then why did it take so long for the Q64 to get overnight service? Or for the Q70 to be created?

 

2. Then you're only further proving my point, because the X17 (even without the extension) is longer than the QM15, and the X17 extension was a lot longer and more circuitous than the QM15 extension would be. 

 

3. Well, you said it yourself, "Mainly homeowners there who drive if anything on weekends, so there would have to be some major reason for them to change and suddenly take the QM16, and I don't see those folks wanting Manhattan like that".

 

Aside from that, Arverne is denser and closer to the Cross Bay Bridge than Neponsit, so there would likely be more ridership garnered for the additional resources used for the extension. (Plus, it's closer to the Far Rockaway Depot). 

 

4. As it is, the QM15 isn't primarily there to serve Lindenwood. It serves the entire Woodhaven corridor, including Glendale, Rego Park, etc. 

Edited February 6, 2016 by checkmatechamp13

[B35 via Church]

- Get rid of the Q20b & call it a day.... Have those same resources go towards increased Q20a service & Q12 service.....

 

- Looks like even more people are buying into the Arverne hype..... That sums up what I think of weekend express bus service down in that area..... There's actually more of a demand/outcry for weekend service on the QM16 end of the Rockaways, and extending QM15's to that end wouldn't be worth it....

 

See, what the MTA intended to have happened with the Q52 & what actually happened are two very different things - The intent was to draw in a new wave of riders that were presumed to have come pouring into the revitalized community .... That influx never happened.... Instead, what it did was draw in the "same old riders" that were taking Q22's to the Q53 @ B. 95th... It took a "seat" off their commute.... The people that did end up moving down there are either driving, or taking the .... Nobody went looking for a place in Arverne in hopes of catching an express bus to work!

 

This idea that Arverne-by-the-sea all of a sudden deserves weekend express bus service is just plain crazy to me....

[NewFlyer 230]

1. Well you're talking about NYCT vs Bus which is like night and day from a cost standpoint, since the gets reimbursed from the city. It's only natural that it would take so long for the X1 to get over night service.

 

2. That's not like saying anything. Those X17 extensions are off-peak during the week. Furthermore, the QM15 isn't the X17 and each route has its own problems that are unique. The longer a route is, the more likely it is to suffer from delays. Just the way it is.

 

3. I say that. What makes Averne so special that it should get weekend service, but Neponsit wouldn't?

 

4. Lindenwood would have the same amount of buses but perhaps even more unreliable service so their service is indeed being stolen in the sense that the bus no longer would be there to primarily serve them.

It's the MTA and JFK's fault that the QM15 is not managed better. Yeah you can't help the fact that traffic slows down buses but what about those drivers that purposely leave late. It's the same business with College Point and some of their routes. Never understood what was the purpose of the drivers leaving at the same time causing the route to bunch up.

 

Averne is not special but it's been developing for the last few years and they got their own LTD service the Q52. There was some thought behind it because the MTA could have let those riders put up with the infrequent and Q22 to the Q53 and or subway combo.

What is so special about Neponsit? It's much faster to drive through Brooklyn to Manhattan or take the Q35 to the and than it is to take QM16 to Manhattan. Neponsit really wanted more express bus I'm sure they would have fought to get more QM16 service.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1. Alright, then why did it take so long for the Q64 to get overnight service? Or for the Q70 to be created?

 

2. Then you're only further proving my point, because the X17 (even without the extension) is longer than the QM15, and the X17 extension was a lot longer and more circuitous than the QM15 extension would be. 

 

3. Well, you said it yourself, "Mainly homeowners there who drive if anything on weekends, so there would have to be some major reason for them to change and suddenly take the QM16, and I don't see those folks wanting Manhattan like that".

 

Aside from that, Arverne is denser and closer to the Cross Bay Bridge than Neponsit, so there would likely be more ridership garnered for the additional resources used for the extension. (Plus, it's closer to the Far Rockaway Depot). 

 

4. As it is, the QM15 isn't primarily there to serve Lindenwood. It serves the entire Woodhaven corridor, including Glendale, Rego Park, etc. 

1.  Well Queens isn't exactly known to have the best politicians when it comes to improving bus service. LOL

 

2. Not at all.  Considering how much shorter the QM15 is in comparison to the X17, I would argue that the QM15 should be more reliable on weekends.

 

3.  So what?  I don't care how dense it is.  The Concourse is dense too and the BxM4 doesn't see much usage along it aside from the folks in those co-ops here and there. Being dense does not automatically make an area viable for express bus service.

 

4. While that is true, it gets a good amount of ridership from Lindenwood.

 

- Get rid of the Q20b & call it a day.... Have those same resources go towards increased Q20a service & Q12 service.....

 

- Looks like even more people are buying into the Arverne hype..... That sums up what I think of weekend express bus service down in that area..... There's actually more of a demand/outcry for weekend service on the QM16 end of the Rockaways, and extending QM15's to that end wouldn't be worth it....

 

See, what the MTA intended to have happened with the Q52 & what actually happened are two very different things - The intent was to draw in a new wave of riders that were presumed to have come pouring into the revitalized community .... That influx never happened.... Instead, what it did was draw in the "same old riders" that were taking Q22's to the Q53 @ B. 95th... It took a "seat" off their commute.... The people that did end up moving down there are either driving, or taking the .... Nobody went looking for a place in Arverne in hopes of catching an express bus to work!

 

This idea that Arverne-by-the-sea all of a sudden deserves weekend express bus service is just plain crazy to me....

LOL

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

- Get rid of the Q20b & call it a day.... Have those same resources go towards increased Q20a service & Q12 service.....

 

- Looks like even more people are buying into the Arverne hype..... That sums up what I think of weekend express bus service down in that area..... There's actually more of a demand/outcry for weekend service on the QM16 end of the Rockaways, and extending QM15's to that end wouldn't be worth it....

 

See, what the MTA intended to have happened with the Q52 & what actually happened are two very different things - The intent was to draw in a new wave of riders that were presumed to have come pouring into the revitalized community .... That influx never happened.... Instead, what it did was draw in the "same old riders" that were taking Q22's to the Q53 @ B. 95th... It took a "seat" off their commute.... The people that did end up moving down there are either driving, or taking the .... Nobody went looking for a place in Arverne in hopes of catching an express bus to work!

 

This idea that Arverne-by-the-sea all of a sudden deserves weekend express bus service is just plain crazy to me....

For the record, I just want to point out that Arverne was considered in Proposal one because of Deadhead trips already running to that area. You might as well have those trips collect any additional fares. You'll probably get some riders on weekdays, and technically, the MTA acquires more fares that way, over having riders use the . Furthermore, this also doesn't exclusively serve Arverne-by-the-Sea; it terminates there for easier DH to/from the depot and for any recovery time going back to Midtown. It better serves Howard Beach residents, who don't have to trek up to Lindenwood, and could encourage more ridership from there, if they have a direct express bus to the city during most periods of the week. You could potentially gain some riders in Broad Channel, although I don't expect that number to be very high. Besides from Arverne-by-the-sea, there are apartment complexes, condos, coops, etc in the Hammels area, which I believe can gain additional ridership. So why I proposed it is not solely for Arverne residents, but for Howard Beach, Broad Channel, and Hammels residents as well. I wouldn't have done it solely for Arverne residents.Like I said, it happens to be the most convenient turnaround in that part of the Rockaways. Futhermore, I didn't believe there would be a base from Edgemere for weekend service (I know that Far Rockaway doesn't deserve more express bus service than they currently have).

 

I don't believe the two sections would differ very much in ridership if the QM15 was extended either way, but the QM15 running through the Hammels and Arverne area would be cheaper than to Neponsit. I believe though that there should be some sort of express bus service running during off-peak hours in the Rockaways (and well since the QM15's DH's run in the Rockaways, you might as well use that DH into revenue time as an oppurtunity to gain more money per fares paid (even if one person were to switch to the QM15, they contribute $3.75 more to the total fares collected over taking the to Beach 67, the Q52, the Q53, or the  to the  towards Beach 90). 

Edited February 6, 2016 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[B35 via Church]

For the record, I just want to point out that Arverne was considered in Proposal one because of Deadhead trips already running to that area. You might as well have those trips collect any additional fares. You'll probably get some riders on weekdays, and technically, the MTA acquires more fares that way, over having riders use the . Furthermore, this also doesn't exclusively serve Arverne-by-the-Sea; it terminates there for easier DH to/from the depot and for any recovery time going back to Midtown. It better serves Howard Beach residents, who don't have to trek up to Lindenwood, and could encourage more ridership from there, if they have a direct express bus to the city during most periods of the week. You could potentially gain some riders in Broad Channel, although I don't expect that number to be very high. Besides from Arverne-by-the-sea, there are apartment complexes, condos, coops, etc in the Hammels area, which I believe can gain additional ridership. So why I proposed it is not solely for Arverne residents, but for Howard Beach, Broad Channel, and Hammels residents as well. I wouldn't have done it solely for Arverne residents.Like I said, it happens to be the most convenient turnaround in that part of the Rockaways. Futhermore, I didn't believe there would be a base from Edgemere for weekend service (I know that Far Rockaway doesn't deserve more express bus service than they currently have).

 

I don't believe the two sections would differ very much in ridership if the QM15 was extended either way, but the QM15 running through the Hammels and Arverne area would be cheaper than to Neponsit. I believe though that there should be some sort of express bus service running during off-peak hours in the Rockaways (and well since the QM15's DH's run in the Rockaways, you might as well use that DH into revenue time as an oppurtunity to gain more money per fares paid (even if one person were to switch to the QM15, they contribute $3.75 more to the total fares collected over taking the to Beach 67, the Q52, the Q53, or the  to the  towards Beach 90). 

What are you basing latent ridership of these extended weekend QM15's on? How the Qm17 performs during weekdays?

(That's what it seems like to me, with how you're conveying the point in bold)

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

What are you basing latent ridership of these extended weekend QM15's on? How the Qm17 performs during weekdays?

(That's what it seems like to me, with how you're conveying the point in bold)

To a certain extent yes, but there's a bit more than that. I mentioned in a previous post too that the QM17 has the higher ridership numbers compared to the QM16, and I believe that there would be similar, if not slightly more ridership potential than a service to Neponsit. In addition, the extended QM15 would serve the areas on the QM17 which are more willingly to use the express bus. The general trend, based on ridership data released by the mta, showed the QM17 beating the QM16 in ridership every year, however the numbers vary. For example, for 2014, service was pretty close to each other (by a handful of riders). The QM17 has also had more ridership by dozens of riders. IDK how 2015's results will be, but I believe the QM17 would still have more ridership over the QM16 (if not, then that would be a little surprising to me).

Edited February 6, 2016 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Gotham Bus Co.]

Here's an idea re-route all Q20B buses to the Kew gardens Sta via Union Turnpike Q20A unaffected 

 

In other words, you would take away half the service from local stops south of Union Turnpike.

 

 

 

- Get rid of the Q20b & call it a day.... Have those same resources go towards increased Q20a service & Q12 service.....

 

 

What would serve 14th Avenue west of Parsons?

Edited February 6, 2016 by Gotham Bus Co.

[IAlam]

In other words, you would take away half the service from local stops south of Union Turnpike.

That's less than half its only 1/3 and with the Q44 (which is much more popular) also there along with the Q20A should be able to handle the riders, it pretty light anywhere south of the van wyck 

[B35 via Church]

What would serve 14th Avenue west of Parsons?

Nothing....

 

 

Well an extended QM15 would only operate when the QM16/QM17 is not operating. It would be much more of a benefit to have those QM15 trips over the current setup (with no off-peak service). As for a QM16/QM17 combo, I don't believe there's enough ridership to justify the creation of a service, for both legs (combined). That's why I was gearing towards having the QM15 run that, because it already exists, and would be much cheaper than a whole new service (it would run later than what the MTA would give the QM16/17 anyways for a theoretical Saturday Schedule). QM15 bus ridership during off-peak hours is decent, however I would still try to increase ridership, maximizing revenue time with as little increase in money as possible. Furthermore, Arverne is signifciantly transit dependant, and I believe there should be more direct options to Manhattan over either the Q52 to the mainland, or the at Beach 67 Street. Given an SBS/BRT on Woodhaven Blvd would slightly make commutes better, I feel that an express bus service there would be ideal. 

Can't be too decent if you're sitting here talking about running QM15's in the Rockaways....

 

To a certain extent yes, but there's a bit more than that.

 

I mentioned in a previous post too that the QM17 has the higher ridership numbers compared to the QM16, and I believe that there would be similar, if not slightly more ridership potential than a service to Neponsit. In addition, the extended QM15 would serve the areas on the QM17 which are more willingly to use the express bus. The general trend, based on ridership data released by the mta, showed the QM17 beating the QM16 in ridership every year, however the numbers vary. For example, for 2014, service was pretty close to each other (by a handful of riders). The QM17 has also had more ridership by dozens of riders. IDK how 2015's results will be, but I believe the QM17 would still have more ridership over the QM16 (if not, then that would be a little surprising to me).

The Qm17 gets more riders than the Qm16 (which I already knew & came to realize, being a former QM16 commuter), so a weekend Qm15 extension to(wards) Arverne would get more riders than a Qm15 extension to(wards) Neponsit.... Interesting - even though in the grand scheme of things, the difference in usage b/w the two would be inconsequential.....

 

I'm going to be blunt.... The issue I'm having is this implication that there'd be more ridership on the QM17 leg on weekends, when there has been at least a decade of bitching of Neponsit & Belle Harbor patrons for 1] weekend service on the QM16 & 2] express service to lower manhattan via Brooklyn (which is another topic)..... There's nothing to suggest Arverne & Hammels patrons want/need weekend express service (which is why I even brought up the Arverne hype people are falling for).... You're making that area of the Rockaways out to be something that it really isn't (so transit-starved, that they need weekend express bus service, on top of having the & a bus route that was created by carving into the already, highly successful (and solely necessary IMO) Q53).... Let's just call this what this is - Your real concern is of ridership on weekend & off peak QM15's - and wish the MTA could/would improve service with any increase of usage it would get in the Rockaways... In other words, grasping for straws..... Lest we forget what agency we're dealing with here.....

 

Good luck with the MTA increasing service on off peak &/or weekend QM15's due to increased revenue service/runtime! They would have to make DAMN sure that they'd get a ton of usage in the Rockaways (either spur) before opting to make such a change to the route.... At that point, you may as well have buses DH-ing to/from Lindenwood... It isn't worth it if you're going to have a meager amt. of usage in the Rockaways (again, either spur) - Regardless if the route runs out of Far Rock depot (with it being situated in the Rockaways)....

Edited February 6, 2016 by B35 via Church

[B35 via Church]

.....I feel that there should be service in the Rockaways. I don't see what service the Rockaways riders would be stealing, especially since they would be getting the same spans of service as everyone else (and on weekdays, only buses going to/from the depot would terminate/originate at Arverne). There isn't enough riders for a QM16/17 off peak service.

......Just like there wouldn't be enough riders in the Rockaways to start QM15's down there... You're trying to have your cake & eat it too with this whole thing....

 

Quite honestly, it's unfair to compare a QM15 expansion to the rockaways to a combined Qm16/17 routing (between arverne & neponsit, heading up to the mainland, etc, that is).... The QM15's main riderbase is that of those along/around Woodhaven Blvd... The QM16/17's main riderbase is that of those within the rockaways.... It's almost as if you're saying that the QM15 should get the off peak/weekend expansion because it already has a (better established) riderbase, compared to the Qm16/17....

 

Forget expanding the 15 for a quick second... You're still not making a compelling case for off peak/weekend express bus service in the rockaways (regardless of what route it is)....

 

Well the question is how long would each trip take then? I mean you're talking about at least a two hour ride each way from to end.  That's pretty costly.  It would make more sense to do some sort of analysis first to see if there's enough ridership for such an extension or QM17 service to begin with.  I think the QM15 would be better served to focus on its current ridership base which continues to grow.  I don't see how you could expect a QM17 route not to serve parts of Cross Bay Blvd and Woodhaven Blvd (to some extent, not as far as where the BM5 runs but still).  I just don't see tons of ridership coming from Averne like that.  It would have to serve more than that for it to work.  What other dense complexes exist aside from Averne-By-The-Sea where people can actually afford the fare?  In other words co-ops and condos....  Gotta be honest... Just because an express bus runs through some areas with dense housing means nothing if most people can't afford the fare.  Just look at the Concourse with the BxM4... Very few condos or co-ops with all of those buildings, and that's where most of the usage comes from...

It wouldn't be two hours, but the point still stands - There isn't a need to run QM15's down in the Rockaways.... Neither one of us can put it any plainer than that.... As for your point regarding density, that's pretty much the QM17... That route should have significantly more ridership than the QM16 - which isn't the case at all..... I'd seriously like to know the ridership levels of both routes, separate from any riders either of them get whilst along Cross Bay... Because I actually think the QM16 is more or less on par with the QM17 - even though the QM17 serves more of the Rockaways!

 

To be fair, the QM17 really shouldn't be running out to Far Rockaway .... Have it end at Wavecrest gardens (where the n31/32 terminate) & call it a day...

 

Could've fooled me.  So then it was always the same middle-class development why would it only now need weekend service? 

Lol!

 

Yes I know that, that's in refrence to you believing that a one way trip would be 2 hours (which it won't). There's several developments (like I mentioned in my edited post) in that area, which is slated to grow.

 

There are several co-ops scattered a block north or south of Rockaway Beach Blvd, in the low B. 80s, and you have that whole set of Apartment complexes (They're called Dayton Towrers, or at least that's what Google says) on Rpckaway Beach Blvd in the B.70's and low B 80s. Arverne is pretty transit dependent, and they have a bunch middle class residencies, in the B 60s, and they're still building more houses.

 

Since buses pass there anyways, it wouldn't cost so much to expand the service to serve Howard Beach, Broad Channel, Hammels, and Arverne. I purposely chose trips in which there would be enough recovery time to extend the service where there would still be a substantial amount of recovery (47 minutes is still a lot of recovery time). Yes, I know QM15 buses run behind on the current weekend schedule, but I have a hard time believing they are 45 minutes or so behind schedule. 10-15 minutes is usually the maximum amount of time it is behind schedule, if it is behind schedule. Midtown buses will often run behind schedule, but catch up. The Queens buses is where these 10-15 minute delays occur (and if it runs behind, it will stay behind).

The only "growth" that dayton towers east & dayton beach park (which is what you're referring to, along Shore front (or, south of rockaway beach blvd) saw, was the post-Sandy rehabilitation.... I agree they did a nice job with it, but there aren't any influx of people moving to those co-ops..... It's the immediate area east of those co-ops where people have moved into - which is Arverne by the Sea..... That's the only area in Arverne that saw "growth", and there's really not that much of it as you might think (as aesthetically pleasing as they made that community).....

 

North of rockaway beach blvd in the 80's, I don't know what "co-ops" you're referring to.... Those are the Hammel Houses - the projects!

 

I don't know about dayton east, but I know people are trying to move out of surfside & dayton west in seaside (B 102nd - B 108th)...

 

But anyway, back to the topic.... If there is to be any increased demand for weekend & off peak express bus service in the Rockaways on that end, it would have to come from the folks moving into Arverne by the sea... That's really your only hope.... Problem is, there's simply not enough people moving in, and subsequently, not making any real push/fuss for express service... They don't have the political clout (yet)..... As far as the Rockaways go, the clout is in Belle Harbor/Neponsit - and even the MTA hasn't caved into their pressure for off peak service & service to lower manhattan.... So that says enough for me....

 

Well then the question is how much ridership do you think those complexes would get and would it be enough to keep the service afloat?

That's what I'd like to know...

 

It's the MTA and JFK's fault that the QM15 is not managed better. Yeah you can't help the fact that traffic slows down buses but what about those drivers that purposely leave late. It's the same business with College Point and some of their routes. Never understood what was the purpose of the drivers leaving at the same time causing the route to bunch up.

You should be telling BM5 this... He's the one that's been pointing out the problems on here that plagues the route....

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Can't be too decent if you're sitting here talking about running QM15's in the Rockaways....

 

The Qm17 gets more riders than the Qm16 (which I already knew & came to realize, being a former QM16 commuter), so a weekend Qm15 extension to(wards) Arverne would get more riders than a Qm15 extension to(wards) Neponsit.... Interesting - even though in the grand scheme of things, the difference in usage b/w the two would be inconsequential.....

 

I'm going to be blunt.... The issue I'm having is this implication that there'd be more ridership on the QM17 leg on weekends, when there has been at least a decade of bitching of Neponsit & Belle Harbor patrons for 1] weekend service on the QM16 & 2] express service to lower manhattan via Brooklyn (which is another topic)..... There's nothing to suggest Arverne & Hammels patrons want/need weekend express service (which is why I even brought up the Arverne hype people are falling for).... You're making that area of the Rockaways out to be something that it really isn't (so transit-starved, that they need weekend express bus service, on top of having the & a bus route that was created by carving into the already, highly successful (and solely necessary IMO) Q53).... Let's just call this what this is - Your real concern is of ridership on weekend & off peak QM15's - and wish the MTA could/would improve service with any increase of usage it would get in the Rockaways... In other words, grasping for straws..... Lest we forget what agency we're dealing with here.....

 

Good luck with the MTA increasing service on off peak &/or weekend QM15's due to increased revenue service/runtime! They would have to make DAMN sure that they'd get a ton of usage in the Rockaways (either spur) before opting to make such a change to the route.... At that point, you may as well have buses DH-ing to/from Lindenwood... It isn't worth it if you're going to have a meager amt. of usage in the Rockaways (again, either spur) - Regardless if the route runs out of Far Rock depot (with it being situated in the Rockaways)....

Well, ridership is in fact decent as it is. As a matter of fact, I believe off-peak ridership has increased, because I've seen later buses into Manhattan with more riders. IDK if ridership on Saturdays is scattering or something, but outbound trips are now seeing more riders on the earlier buses, and slightly less on the later (what I like to call "peak" buses). Unlike my QM10 proposal (which is due to my concern of how low its rush hour ridership is), this proposal is in an effort to make more revenue for the MTA (with the exception of several trips, which are actual extensions).

 

While there would be increased runtime for several trips, most buses would pass right along the route path I mentioned, except on a DH trip. So, in reality, no one will get screwed up in Lindenwood claiming delayed service (the amount of time for recovery in Manhattan is pretty high). It's still better to get anything, since you have those buses already out there DH'ing. Like I said, if you get people off the Q21/22/41/52/53/ , you're getting $3.75 more in fares. The increased cost for Saturday is minimal, because only a few trips are technically extended to Arverne. About 80% of the increased cost comes from the addition of an extra QM15 trip to Arverne (which does not exist) during the 7-8 PM hour (which would serve all the Woodhaven Blvd/Cross Bay Blvd communities, Hammels, and Arverne) on weekdays. The other 20% comes from extending 8 Saturday trips down to Arverne (the rest already go to Arverne; the only difference is that they're DH's after Lindenwood), and compared to other increases in costs for any enhancements. It's relatively minor. I mean, the amount of added runtime they have given the QM15 this past year alone is probably more than double the estimated cost for this change. 

 

I don't see the problem of having runs that are already DH'ing the same way as the proposed extension pick up riders. It would add no additional money, and most of those trips would do exactly that. The MTA currently does that with the late night Q83 (which, I believe existed partially because the Q27 didn't run in that area either), running to QV LIRR, and with the Q1/Q88 (the Q88 used to terminate at Union Turnpike before). It used to be done with the BM2, B103, and QM21, and it's currently done with the BxM3 into Getty Square. I don't see why it can't be done here. I'm not saying it would be booming, but you'd help in some way. Th extension is also no specifically towards Arverne residents, but Hammels, Broad Channel, and Howard Beach residents (which are already on Mainland) as well.

 

Note that I'm not extending every QM15 off peak trip to Arverne either. Like I mentioned as the case for weekday service, only trips coming from the depot, or going back to the depot would originate/terminate in Arverne. That means that there could be 1,2, or 3 hour gaps in between buses. 

 

......Just like there wouldn't be enough riders in the Rockaways to start QM15's down there... You're trying to have your cake & eat it too with this whole thing....

 

Quite honestly, it's unfair to compare a QM15 expansion to the rockaways to a combined Qm16/17 routing (between arverne & neponsit, heading up to the mainland, etc, that is).... The QM15's main riderbase is that of those along/around Woodhaven Blvd... The QM16/17's main riderbase is that of those within the rockaways.... It's almost as if you're saying that the QM15 should get the off peak/weekend expansion because it already has a (better established) riderbase, compared to the Qm16/17....

 

Forget expanding the 15 for a quick second... You're still not making a compelling case for off peak/weekend express bus service in the rockaways (regardless of what route it is)....

 

It wouldn't be two hours, but the point still stands - There isn't a need to run QM15's down in the Rockaways.... Neither one of us can put it any plainer than that.... As for your point regarding density, that's pretty much the QM17... That route should have significantly more ridership than the QM16 - which isn't the case at all..... I'd seriously like to know the ridership levels of both routes, separate from any riders either of them get whilst along Cross Bay... Because I actually think the QM16 is more or less on par with the QM17 - even though the QM17 serves more of the Rockaways!

 

To be fair, the QM17 really shouldn't be running out to Far Rockaway .... Have it end at Wavecrest gardens (where the n31/32 terminate) & call it a day...

 

 

The only "growth" that dayton towers east & dayton beach park (which is what you're referring to, along Shore front (or, south of rockaway beach blvd) saw, was the post-Sandy rehabilitation.... I agree they did a nice job with it, but there aren't any influx of people moving to those co-ops..... It's the immediate area east of those co-ops where people have moved into - which is Arverne by the Sea..... That's the only area in Arverne that saw "growth", and there's really not that much of it as you might think (as aesthetically pleasing as they made that community).....

 

North of rockaway beach blvd in the 80's, I don't know what "co-ops" you're referring to.... Those are the Hammel Houses - the projects!

 

I don't know about dayton east, but I know people are trying to move out of surfside & dayton west in seaside (B 102nd - B 108th)...

 

But anyway, back to the topic.... If there is to be any increased demand for weekend & off peak express bus service in the Rockaways on that end, it would have to come from the folks moving into Arverne by the sea... That's really your only hope.... Problem is, there's simply not enough people moving in, and subsequently, not making any real push/fuss for express service... They don't have the political clout (yet)..... As far as the Rockaways go, the clout is in Belle Harbor/Neponsit - and even the MTA hasn't caved into their pressure for off peak service & service to lower manhattan.... So that says enough for me....

 

That's what I'd like to know...

 

You should be telling BM5 this... He's the one that's been pointing out the problems on here that plagues the route....

I'm not trying to compare the QM16 to the QM15 extension. I'm saying that the QM16/17 service would not have enough riders to justify as a standalone route, compared to all the other current MTABC express routes which operate during off-peak hours (with the exception of the BxM4). Even if there was demand, I'm pretty sure the MTA would not give them a separate service, so I believe that it would be by way of an extended QM15, no matter to which leg they extend it. There isn't enough riders to justify a standalone route, (which I agree with). However, is there enough ridership to consider an extension of the QM15 (on either side), and I believe so. It's like me splitting up the Union Turnpike expresses for each leg to run express to/from 188 Street, and have a separate route run up to 188 Street, along Union Turnpike. Would all three services survive like that? The Glen Oaks and Lake Success branches would probably be intact (although they'll see some losses in service and ridership), but the one running up to 188 Street won't (except for during the rush hour).

 

As for the QM17, the bus goes through the poorer areas of the Rockaways. Make sense as to why it doesn't have significantly more ridership than the QM16. Not as many people, especially in Far Rockaway, are willing to spend $6.50 when they can take the Q113 to the or the for $2.75. The closer to the Cross Bay Bridge, there'll be more demand. However, the QM17 still manages to get more riders than the QM16. Now, I'd agree the extension of ALL QM15's to the Rockaways is not necessary, since there is not THAT much ridership expected. However, the trips I mentioned which would run to Arverne shouldn't be a problem, since they already run to Arverne anyways, and don't do another trip back. More revenue for the MTA, even if you get 1 rider getting off south of 165 Avenue (each extra rider would cumulatively bring in $952 extra per year (weekday) or $97 per year (Saturdays). So the actual cost for the extended trips would be partially offset (and the actual net operational cost would be lower). 

 

As for the QM17 terminating at Wavecrest Gardens, I can agree to that. 

 

In relation to the political clout. Let's say both Arverne residents and Belle Harbor/Neponsit residents pushed for getting off peak express bus service. The MTA would probably choose giving Arverne residents the extra service, because it would be cheaper to operate. However, I'd be also willing to consider service to Neponsit during off-peak hours too, if its warranted, but not an individual route (because there's not enough ridership for that). Although, it was mentioned that people in Neponsit drive on the weekends. I'm not sure if an express bus in their neighborhood would push enough people to use the express there for the MTA to consider it. 

[B35 via Church]

Well, ridership is in fact decent as it is. As a matter of fact, I believe off-peak ridership has increased, because I've seen later buses into Manhattan with more riders. IDK if ridership on Saturdays is scattering or something, but outbound trips are now seeing more riders on the earlier buses, and slightly less on the later (what I like to call "peak" buses). Unlike my QM10 proposal (which is due to my concern of how low its rush hour ridership is), this proposal is in an effort to make more revenue for the MTA (with the exception of several trips, which are actual extensions).

 

While there would be increased runtime for several trips, most buses would pass right along the route path I mentioned, except on a DH trip. So, in reality, no one will get screwed up in Lindenwood claiming delayed service (the amount of time for recovery in Manhattan is pretty high). It's still better to get anything, since you have those buses already out there DH'ing. Like I said, if you get people off the Q21/22/41/52/53/ , you're getting $3.75 more in fares. The increased cost for Saturday is minimal, because only a few trips are technically extended to Arverne. About 80% of the increased cost comes from the addition of an extra QM15 trip to Arverne (which does not exist) during the 7-8 PM hour (which would serve all the Woodhaven Blvd/Cross Bay Blvd communities, Hammels, and Arverne) on weekdays. The other 20% comes from extending 8 Saturday trips down to Arverne (the rest already go to Arverne; the only difference is that they're DH's after Lindenwood), and compared to other increases in costs for any enhancements. It's relatively minor. I mean, the amount of added runtime they have given the QM15 this past year alone is probably more than double the estimated cost for this change. 

 

I don't see the problem of having runs that are already DH'ing the same way as the proposed extension pick up riders. It would add no additional money, and most of those trips would do exactly that. The MTA currently does that with the late night Q83 (which, I believe existed partially because the Q27 didn't run in that area either), running to QV LIRR, and with the Q1/Q88 (the Q88 used to terminate at Union Turnpike before). It used to be done with the BM2, B103, and QM21, and it's currently done with the BxM3 into Getty Square. I don't see why it can't be done here. I'm not saying it would be booming, but you'd help in some way. Th extension is also no specifically towards Arverne residents, but Hammels, Broad Channel, and Howard Beach residents (which are already on Mainland) as well.

 

Note that I'm not extending every QM15 off peak trip to Arverne either. Like I mentioned as the case for weekday service, only trips coming from the depot, or going back to the depot would originate/terminate in Arverne. That means that there could be 1,2, or 3 hour gaps in between buses.

Not sure what QM10 proposal you're talking about, but as far as this particular discussion goes, I'm not going to keep reiterating, regurgitating, or rewording the same points (making these replies longer than they have to be), so I'm only going to bring up two points in response to this:

 

1] How many people do you really believe are willing to abandon the local bus(es) &/or the subway for the express bus in the "poorer" parts of the Rockaways..... You're really making a case for the MTA obtaining nickels & dimes, basically on a *it's better than nothing* tip..... Too small scale a thinking AFAIC... There are no victories had by obliterating DH time & garnering a handful of riders on so few trips....

 

....and to that point, the fact that this service wouldn't be uniform? Yeah, you're definitely not getting much of anyone riding these things.....

 

2] Yes, the same practice of running unwarranted revenue service directly from the depot that houses the route is done on the BxM3.... How's ridership in Yonkers these days? How does bringing that up help your case exactly??? My argument isn't that it isn't done anywhere in the system.... My argument is why should it be done when it'll benefit little to no one....

 

See, I don't have near as much of a problem with deadheading as some people do.... I care more about where the routes go, who they serve (not on some racial shit, but what communities they serve & how effectively the bus route is serving that community & its needs) & how many can be served on that route in a reasonable amount of time.... I don't believe in extending/expanding the service area of bus routes if I do not think it will be worth it in the short term or the long term - Regardless if it makes the deadhead time perfectly Zero.... That's where I'm coming from with this....

 

Now onto the next reply...

 

I'm not trying to compare the QM16 to the QM15 extension. I'm saying that the QM16/17 service would not have enough riders to justify as a standalone route, compared to all the other current MTABC express routes which operate during off-peak hours (with the exception of the BxM4). Even if there was demand, I'm pretty sure the MTA would not give them a separate service, so I believe that it would be by way of an extended QM15, no matter to which leg they extend it. There isn't enough riders to justify a standalone route, (which I agree with). However, is there enough ridership to consider an extension of the QM15 (on either side), and I believe so. It's like me splitting up the Union Turnpike expresses for each leg to run express to/from 188 Street, and have a separate route run up to 188 Street, along Union Turnpike. Would all three services survive like that? The Glen Oaks and Lake Success branches would probably be intact (although they'll see some losses in service and ridership), but the one running up to 188 Street won't (except for during the rush hour).

 

As for the QM17, the bus goes through the poorer areas of the Rockaways. Make sense as to why it doesn't have significantly more ridership than the QM16. Not as many people, especially in Far Rockaway, are willing to spend $6.50 when they can take the Q113 to the or the for $2.75. The closer to the Cross Bay Bridge, there'll be more demand. However, the QM17 still manages to get more riders than the QM16. Now, I'd agree the extension of ALL QM15's to the Rockaways is not necessary, since there is not THAT much ridership expected. However, the trips I mentioned which would run to Arverne shouldn't be a problem, since they already run to Arverne anyways, and don't do another trip back. More revenue for the MTA, even if you get 1 rider getting off south of 165 Avenue (each extra rider would cumulatively bring in $952 extra per year (weekday) or $97 per year (Saturdays). So the actual cost for the extended trips would be partially offset (and the actual net operational cost would be lower). 

 

As for the QM17 terminating at Wavecrest Gardens, I can agree to that. 

 

In relation to the political clout. Let's say both Arverne residents and Belle Harbor/Neponsit residents pushed for getting off peak express bus service. The MTA would probably choose giving Arverne residents the extra service, because it would be cheaper to operate. However, I'd be also willing to consider service to Neponsit during off-peak hours too, if its warranted, but not an individual route (because there's not enough ridership for that). Although, it was mentioned that people in Neponsit drive on the weekends. I'm not sure if an express bus in their neighborhood would push enough people to use the express there for the MTA to consider it. 

I stand corrected. You're contrasting it..... That addresses that entire first paragraph....

 

As for the rest of this post... The point about the QM17 vs the QM16 was strictly one regarding the densities of the communities they serve; I made that quite clear..... From a density standpoint, the QM17 should blow the 16 out of the water..... When you inject household incomes into the mix, yeah things will even out.....

 

The point about proximity to the cross bay bridge & the QM17 still managing to get more riders than the QM16... You're not saying anything profound by bringing that up - as the areas east of the bridge in the Rockaways, period, are more dense than the areas west of the bridge... Far more apartment complexes & co-ops east of the bridge inhabited by low-middle class to middle class people (I'm omitting the low class, as these aren't people that are remotely thinking about an express bus)....

 

The last paragraph...  Don't agree with that hypothetical; that's not how politics works..... Those that yell the loudest that have the most money usually gets rewarded..... Arverne would have to become higher class than it is now (I don't know if it'll ever get there, so I'll simply say it's not there yet) for that logic to pan out to the tune you're surmising.... Nobody's suggesting that an individual route (i.e. the QM16) run on weekends, and I've already stated that I don't agree with having any type of weekend service in the Rockaways (down either leg; the 16 or the 17), so there's no need to reinforce that point...... Having said that, that doesn't make running QM15's in the Rockaways anymore plausible.....

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Not sure what QM10 proposal you're talking about, but as far as this particular discussion goes, I'm not going to keep reiterating, regurgitating, or rewording the same points (making these replies longer than they have to be), so I'm only going to bring up two points in response to this:

 

1] How many people do you really believe are willing to abandon the local bus(es) &/or the subway for the express bus in the "poorer" parts of the Rockaways..... You're really making a case for the MTA obtaining nickels & dimes, basically on a *it's better than nothing* tip..... Too small scale a thinking AFAIC... There are no victories had by obliterating DH time & garnering a handful of riders on so few trips....

 

....and to that point, the fact that this service wouldn't be uniform? Yeah, you're definitely not getting much of anyone riding these things.....

 

2] Yes, the same practice of running unwarranted revenue service directly from the depot that houses the route is done on the BxM3.... How's ridership in Yonkers these days? How does bringing that up help your case exactly??? My argument isn't that it isn't done anywhere in the system.... My argument is why should it be done when it'll benefit little to no one....

 

See, I don't have near as much of a problem with deadheading as some people do.... I care more about where the routes go, who they serve (not on some racial shit, but what communities they serve & how effectively the bus route is serving that community & its needs) & how many can be served on that route in a reasonable amount of time.... I don't believe in extending/expanding the service area of bus routes if I do not think it will be worth it in the short term or the long term - Regardless if it makes the deadhead time perfectly Zero.... That's where I'm coming from with this....

 

Now onto the next reply...

 

I stand corrected. You're contrasting it..... That addresses that entire first paragraph....

 

As for the rest of this post... The point about the QM17 vs the QM16 was strictly one regarding the densities of the communities they serve; I made that quite clear..... From a density standpoint, the QM17 should blow the 16 out of the water..... When you inject household incomes into the mix, yeah things will even out.....

 

The point about proximity to the cross bay bridge & the QM17 still managing to get more riders than the QM16... You're not saying anything profound by bringing that up - as the areas east of the bridge in the Rockaways, period, are more dense than the areas west of the bridge... Far more apartment complexes & co-ops east of the bridge inhabited by low-middle class to middle class people (I'm omitting the low class, as these aren't people that are remotely thinking about an express bus)....

 

The last paragraph...  Don't agree with that hypothetical; that's not how politics works..... Those that yell the loudest that have the most money usually gets rewarded..... Arverne would have to become higher class than it is now (I don't know if it'll ever get there, so I'll simply say it's not there yet) for that logic to pan out to the tune you're surmising.... Nobody's suggesting that an individual route (i.e. the QM16) run on weekends, and I've already stated that I don't agree with having any type of weekend service in the Rockaways (down either leg; the 16 or the 17), so there's no need to reinforce that point...... Having said that, that doesn't make running QM15's in the Rockaways anymore plausible.....

 

The QM10 proposal is this: https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?hl=en_US&app=mp&mid=z7P2QilxQnLY.kmftEnzwra1A

To keep it short, the route would run via Elmhurst and Maspeth. The QM12 would stop at Woodhaven Blvd in the AM only, and in the PM, would run via 63 Road (which is not listed). Maspeth has asked for express bus service before, and the QM24 is too far from most of Maspeth.

 

Anyways, going back to the discussion:

 

1. Well if the only gains in ridership are as a result from former DH trips (in contrast to all off-peak trips), then it wouldn't be as much as all trips. However, the cost per rider for the route would be better if one or two people got on the bus. It makes it more efficient over not collecting fares. The weekday service would not be uniform (well, during middays; most evening service would go back to Arverne, since they DH to the depot). On Saturdays, they're all uniform.

 

2. The point is that with the exception of the trips I mentioned (which would be an actual extension over using current DH time), the extension is based on buses already on DH time, and it would cost nothing to operate them. The BxM3 has plenty of non-DH trips going all the way to Yonkers, then making a trip back to 23 Street. There's an added cost that you and others would deem unnecessary. That wouldn't be the case for the most part here, since the costs to operate them are nothing. You'd still get more Revenue if you operate these buses from the depot or intermediate area, especially if the route path and DH route are the same or similar to it. 

 

I don't have a problem with DH'ing buses. However, I believe in some opportunities, turning DH time into revenue time would be, in some cases, beneficial. Every rider that switches would generate up to $952 in extra revenue. If say, 20 weekday riders used the extension, and 23 Saturday riders used the segment on average. The extra revenue would be  $21,282.50, and less if they use an unlimited. Even if a portion of them utilize an unlimited, it offsets the increase in costs for Saturday service, and covers some of the added weekday costs. The rest of the Saturday costs would be covered by the amount of fares collected from the riders using the new trip, and the rest covered by the city as part of the subsidy. If 20 people used that new trip, for example, the total cost by the city per year would be around $48,000 extra annually, compared to the $98,000 I mentioned. If you simultaneously cut the QM17 down to Wavecrest Gardens, the decreased cost would be around $30,000. So in total, the extra annual costs for all the service changes have been reduced to $18,000 extra annually (now, If I wanted to save even more, take the QM10/12 proposal: the QM12 PM service would see 1 minute less of runtime, which would save around $6,000 per year. With the QM10, while travel time would go up, the amount of riders would too. If I project 75 extra riders on the QM10, while adding 5 minutes of runtime to each trip, the QM10 increased time would call for 90,000 annually, whereas the added riders bring in $110,000 in extra revenue, offsetting the cost for itself by $15,000 lets say they have unlimited. You then offset the costs by the revenue earned, which would be $3,000). The entire plan implemented at once would bring in $1,875 more annually, and while it's relatively low, it still is something. It takes some people off the subway too, but not much.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

......Just like there wouldn't be enough riders in the Rockaways to start QM15's down there... You're trying to have your cake & eat it too with this whole thing....

 

Quite honestly, it's unfair to compare a QM15 expansion to the rockaways to a combined Qm16/17 routing (between arverne & neponsit, heading up to the mainland, etc, that is).... The QM15's main riderbase is that of those along/around Woodhaven Blvd... The QM16/17's main riderbase is that of those within the rockaways.... It's almost as if you're saying that the QM15 should get the off peak/weekend expansion because it already has a (better established) riderbase, compared to the Qm16/17....

 

Forget expanding the 15 for a quick second... You're still not making a compelling case for off peak/weekend express bus service in the rockaways (regardless of what route it is)....

 

It wouldn't be two hours, but the point still stands - There isn't a need to run QM15's down in the Rockaways.... Neither one of us can put it any plainer than that.... As for your point regarding density, that's pretty much the QM17... That route should have significantly more ridership than the QM16 - which isn't the case at all..... I'd seriously like to know the ridership levels of both routes, separate from any riders either of them get whilst along Cross Bay... Because I actually think the QM16 is more or less on par with the QM17 - even though the QM17 serves more of the Rockaways!

 

To be fair, the QM17 really shouldn't be running out to Far Rockaway .... Have it end at Wavecrest gardens (where the n31/32 terminate) & call it a day...

 

Lol!

 

The only "growth" that dayton towers east & dayton beach park (which is what you're referring to, along Shore front (or, south of rockaway beach blvd) saw, was the post-Sandy rehabilitation.... I agree they did a nice job with it, but there aren't any influx of people moving to those co-ops..... It's the immediate area east of those co-ops where people have moved into - which is Arverne by the Sea..... That's the only area in Arverne that saw "growth", and there's really not that much of it as you might think (as aesthetically pleasing as they made that community).....

 

North of rockaway beach blvd in the 80's, I don't know what "co-ops" you're referring to.... Those are the Hammel Houses - the projects!

 

I don't know about dayton east, but I know people are trying to move out of surfside & dayton west in seaside (B 102nd - B 108th)...

 

But anyway, back to the topic.... If there is to be any increased demand for weekend & off peak express bus service in the Rockaways on that end, it would have to come from the folks moving into Arverne by the sea... That's really your only hope.... Problem is, there's simply not enough people moving in, and subsequently, not making any real push/fuss for express service... They don't have the political clout (yet)..... As far as the Rockaways go, the clout is in Belle Harbor/Neponsit - and even the MTA hasn't caved into their pressure for off peak service & service to lower manhattan.... So that says enough for me....

Yep... That's one reason why I mentioned Neponsit too... They have the clout that the rest of the Rockaways doesn't have mainly due to the wealth over there, but they aren't big enough to force the (MTA)'s hand.  You've already explained the rest of the reasons and quite well, so no need for me to add anything else.

 

As for the QM17 running as far as it does, I read about riders complaining about the line and how the was essentially discriminating against them while overserving Lindenwood and the affluent Howard Beach.  That's why the QM17 doesn't make as many stops as it once did.  I would think that based on the quote below that they would certainly have to fight for any expanded service from the .

 

 

Need Better Bus Service

The following letter was sent to Assemblywoman Michelle Titus:

Dear Assemblywoman Titus:

I am writing you regarding the continuing problems the QM17 passengers are having with Green Bus Lines. You would think a Far Rock away express bus would cater to the passenger of Far Rockaway. Here's a list of specific problems we are having on the QM17 express bus (Far Rockaway to Manhattan):

We have to fight for everything we want, we have to fight to get working buses, we had to fight to get newer buses because they all went to the QM15 first, and we had to fight to stop going through Lindenwood which cut our stops from 42 to 34. We have to fight for everything when it comes to decent transportation.

Our express route is more like a local bus run - we make a total of 34 stops from the first stop to the last going into Manhattan (13 in Far Rockaway, 1 in Broad Channel, 11 along Crossbay/Woodhaven Blvd., and 9 in Manhattan) and on the return trip we make 35 stops (an extra stop on Crossbay Blvd). These are more stops than our local Q22 which operates from one end of the Peninsula to the other and it only makes 31 stops.

We only have two buses in which we call the 1st and 2nd QM17's (the morning buses leave Far Rockaway and 6:42 and 7:10 and the afternoon buses leave Manhattan at 4:30 and 5:22). We have to duplicate the same stops as the as the QM15 which have 16 buses in the morning starting from 6:38 to 11:00 am and 14 in the afternoons/evenings starting from 12:30 to 8:00 pm.

In the winter if you have to sit in the back of the bus it's an icebox and in the summer the back of the bus is a sweatshop.

Windows are always off track so it doesn't close properly and the passengers either have to stuff something in the cracks to prevent the wind from coming in. Dirty seats and floors, but what can we expect when according to Green Line a thorough cleaning of the bus is only done once a month. You can plant a bottle in the back of the bus on Monday and still find it there on Friday. Buses leak - when it rains, it rains inside the bus

Wheelchair lift - constantly breaks down and we have a passenger who is a regular rider that depends on the bus to get back and forth to work

We had a bus last week were the back door didn't work.

We had a bus that had a hole in the interior under the vent in the back of the bus.

Just this Monday our bus completely stopped on the LIE, then it stopped again in the Midtown Tun nel, and it decided to finally give up and not go anywhere when we got out of the tunnel.

We were told by officials at Green Line that our line is a courtesy route and our question to Green line if it's so much a courtesy why are we paying $4.00 each way. Since we make more stops than our local Q22 bus we should be paying $2.00.

I wonder if it's because of the demographic of the rider ship on the QM17 is the reason why don't get adequate service.

As an elected official I am looking to you to help rectify this situation. The community of Far Rockaway de serves true express bus service and that includes not stopping after we cross the bridge out of Rockaway. It also includes adding at least 2 more buses to route and starting express bus service out of Rockaway from 6:30 and the last express bus leave at 8:00 and have express bus service leaving out of Manhattan from 4:30 and the last bus leave around 7:30. I need for you to hold Green Bus line accountable for the way they run their company especially the Rock away Depot. That means having a dispatcher in Manhattan at the last stop at night to make sure the buses are running on time. Something needs to be done.

I want to thank you for your time and I will be anticipating a response from you.

Source: http://www.rockawave.com/news/2004-03-26/letters

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Yep... That's one reason why I mentioned Neponsit too... They have the clout that the rest of the Rockaways doesn't have mainly due to the wealth over there, but they aren't big enough to force the (MTA)'s hand.  You've already explained the rest of the reasons and quite well, so no need for me to add anything else.

 

As for the QM17 running as far as it does, I read about riders complaining about the line and how the was essentially discriminating against them while overserving Lindenwood and the affluent Howard Beach.  That's why the QM17 doesn't make as many stops as it once did.  I would think that based on the quote below that they would certainly have to fight for any expanded service from the .

 

Source: http://www.rockawave.com/news/2004-03-26/letters

 

Well, both routes only had several trips a day, and yes, made all Woodhaven Blvd stops. The currently is definitely an improvement (hands-down) over the former service. I believe during that time, there was more of an effort to get things down in terms of express bus service, which I think is lacking now (and throughout Queens, since the MTA was able to service on a lot of the QM's). I still think that to this day, the MTA favors the QM15, since they've expanded service by a lot (for example, they gave us a later Saturday trip to Lindenwood last summer, and before that, all the service the MTA gave to the QM15 during the week in 2008). Then again, most riders get on/off south of Liberty (and including Liberty) on off-peak trips, and whatever ridership from the north comes scattered from Forest Hills and Middle Village, and those residents tend to stick the express bus (and I believe are vocal too).