Queens Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[checkmatechamp13]

As far as LTD service, that will be had on the Q36 via Springfield (running to 257th) & the Q43 running to 268th

Q43's to Braddock/243rd & Q36's to LIRR QV (which is basically a short turn) would only run local; no LTD's....

 

Would the LTD service run outside of rush hour? (And would the short-turns be full-time?)

 

I know notation isn't a big deal for you, but I do agree with BM5 that it would be simpler to just label those short-turns as Q1s. That way you avoid any confusion "Oh, I'm waiting on 212th for a bus to head towards the county line" (regardless of how small a riderbase that is).

 

On a service-related note, I think the short-turns should terminate at 165th on the western end. Considering a good chunk of riders are only looking to get to the train, sending them to Jamaica LIRR is overkill. The Q36 LTD & Q43 LTD with however many buses per hour you want to send out there should be plenty of service. (Aside from that, it'll also help with the reliability by keeping the locals nice and compact)

 

 

There isn't a single route in the system that should have LTD service running during the wee hours of the morning....

 

You should send that memo to the people who designed the M60 & Q44 +SBS+. 

 

Question 1: Absolutely not.... As soon as buses (from the east) turn off 212th st onto Hillside, you'll see very few riders disembarking short of 179th subway... You may get some that get off at 188th for the 17, or Franny Lou for the little shopping plaza there, but those are both LTD stops.... So local stops along Hillside for Q36 riders from the east, nope.....

 

Question 2: Funny you ask that.... I find that since the Q36 was extended to Little Neck, your average Q36 (physical bus) now is more crowded than when all Q36's ended at 257th ..... It's to the point where more folks are taking n24's for service due west.... Which, for lack of a better term, is bullshit - this is where being frugal doesn't help..... There were FAR more riders that utilized the Q79 than this Q36 extension along LNP..... What I'm explaining is the adverse effect that that extension has had on Q36 service.... I don't ever remember so many boarding n24's along Jamaica av due west like I see now (driving along Jamaica av/Jericho Tpke going to/from work sometimes)....

 

I was actually referring to the locals being overcrowded, while the limiteds have spare capacity. But yeah, I was never fond of that Q36 extension. A flat-out "let's just stick these two routes together" type of deal (Probably the same genius who extended the X17 to Tottenville, but that's another story).

 

 ....and I don't think the Q36 should be a local, riders should be able to fit onto those buses. If buses are too crowded, the Q1/Q43 Local would also operate local.

 

Not sure what you mean by that. The current Q43 operates limited-only during rush hour. Are you referring to B35's short-turned Q43 via Braddock?

 

During the peak, there would be 26 buses departing peak terminals instead of 35 buses, but the less buses would be offset by the extension of the Q36 and combined LTD service on the Q43 and Q36 up to Springfield Blvd. The reduction in the Floral Park Q36 buses is because it is not picking up all the local riders it traditionally would, but it is being shifted to Hillside Avenue, so I think the headway would be slightly more frequent. Additionally, I think the Q36 "local" could end at 165 Street, since there's the Q43 Local (every 10 minutes) running west, in addition to the Q43 LTD, and Q36 LTD. The frequency of the three buses is approximately 3.33 minutes (similar to current levels on the Q43 LTD during the rush), compared to the 2.5 with the Q36's to QV (which is too frequent). During midday hours, the Q36 to Floral Park and the Q43 LTD would still provide service on that branch.

 

Do keep in mind that the train runs 10 car trains every 4 minutes during rush hour. I wouldn't be so quick to say that 24 BPH (a bus every 2.5 minutes) is overkill.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

1. Not sure what you mean by that. The current Q43 operates limited-only during rush hour. Are you referring to B35's short-turned Q43 via Braddock?

 

 

2.Do keep in mind that the train runs 10 car trains every 4 minutes during rush hour. I wouldn't be so quick to say that 24 BPH (a bus every 2.5 minutes) is overkill.

1. Yes, I was talking about the proposed Q43 pattern. It was in reference to him having Q43's from both Braddock/243 and 268 Street.

 

2.I am talking about west of 165 Street. You don't need all Q36 and Q43 buses going to the LIRR. Short- turning them at 165 Street (the Q36 local at least) would still provide a headway somewhat more frequent on Hillside Ave west of 165 Street than the current Q43 setup.

Edited March 29, 2016 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[JFK Depot]

165th Terminal needs to be redesigned... Any ideas ?

[bobtehpanda]

165th Terminal needs to be redesigned... Any ideas ?

 

Sell the air rights to a developer who'll build on top of it.

 

165 is in a weird location. They should relocate it somewhere closer to the subway and build a more neighborhood friendly bus terminal.

[checkmatechamp13]

I am talking about west of 165 Street. You don't need all Q36 and Q43 buses going to the LIRR. Short- turning them at 165 Street (the Q36 local at least) would still provide a headway somewhat more frequent on Hillside Ave west of 165 Street than the current Q43 setup.

 

Alright, I thought you were talking about the Hillside corridor in general. In that case, I would agree with you.

[B35 via Church]

I misread the part at the bottom; I thought you meant no LTD as no LTD at all (although it'll just be no LTD on 212). With what I mentioned of the Q36, I wanted to say that the Q36 should be a limited when it runs, it shouldn't be fully local. 

 

Another Question: Will the Springfield Blvd variation be rush hours only or a full time variation (in addition to the 212 service). If it is the latter, I don't know if It'll get confusing with the Q36 branches with different terminals, so I would have different notations for service. I would understand it, but to regular riders, they might be confused with the branching. Hypothetically, The Q36 can remain being fully local, from Jamaica LIRR to QV. The Jamaica to Floral Park route could be a different notation.

 

 

 

 

Q36 LCL Jamaica LIRR to QV LIRR headways

Weekdays: 12 minutes rush hours, 20 minutes middays, 20 minutes evenings

 

Q43 LCL Jamaica LIRR to Braddock Avenue

Weekdays: 12 minutes rush hours, 20 minutes middays, 30 evenings

 

Q36 LCL/LTD Jamaica LIRR to Floral Park-257St via Springfield Blvd (Blue denotes Limited service in both Directions)

Weekdays: 10 minutes rush hours, 20 minutes middays & evenings

 

Q43 LTD Jamaica LIRR to Floral Park- 268 St:

Weekdays: 10 minutes rush hours, 12 middays, 12-15 evenings

 

 

 

During the peak, there would be 26 buses departing peak terminals instead of 35 buses, but the less buses would be offset by the extension of the Q36 and combined LTD service on the Q43 and Q36 up to Springfield Blvd. The reduction in the Floral Park Q36 buses is because it is not picking up all the local riders it traditionally would, but it is being shifted to Hillside Avenue, so I think the headway would be slightly more frequent. Additionally, I think the Q36 "local" could end at 165 Street, since there's the Q43 Local (every 10 minutes) running west, in addition to the Q43 LTD, and Q36 LTD. The frequency of the three buses is approximately 3.33 minutes (similar to current levels on the Q43 LTD during the rush), compared to the 2.5 with the Q36's to QV (which is too frequent). During midday hours, the Q36 to Floral Park and the Q43 LTD would still provide service on that branch.

 

If it's the former, than all that above won't apply. However, since there's a mix of Local and Limited Buses past 165 Street with the Q36/Q43 with this plan of moving the LTD, I would add LTD stops even past 165 Street, stopping at the LIRR, Jamaica Avenue, Sutphin/Hillside, Parsons, 165 Street, 169 Street, 179 Street, and all other LTD stops until Springfield Blvd. Just throwing it out as a possibility.

 

By "split" I'm referring to having the Q36 run from Jamaica to Floral Park, and the section from Floral Park to Little Neck being the Q79. That's what I'm 50/50 on. 

The Springfield Q36's would run concurrent with the Q36's that run via 212th.....

 

I don't agree with the notion that there would be too many buses running to Sutphin... The problem I have w/ the current setup is that, outside all of the Hillside buses, the Q43 is the only route that runs past (west of) 165th.... 165th is an inconvenient (which is the main problem I have w/ it) dumping ground that has too many taking the MTABus buses there from the west for bus service due east, or actually walking (usually from along Jamaica av) to the terminal.... That, and the Q43 carries to (and especially from) Sutphin; it isn't like buses are carrying air exactly west of 169th .... One could extend the Q1 to Sutphin, but the problem I have w/ that is that service would be divided into running via Springfield & via Braddock.... I'd rather service be divided up b/w via Springfield & via 212th.... The point is that the Q1 is easily consolidable & should be consolidated..... Doesn't have to be my way exactly, but the Q1 as is, I believe needs to go.....

 

As far as different route numbers, nah, I don't want to give off the impression that they're different services..... It would all be under the Q36 "umbrella", so to speak..... I would rather short turn buses on the eastern end than on the western end.... There is way more ridership on the Sutphin end than on the Jamaica/257th end obviously... This is one reason why I have the buses along 212th ending at LIRR QV, and the Springfield buses running the full distance.... Another reason is, Jamaica has more traffic lights compared to Hillside.... and vehicles (not just buses) drive a little slower on the 212's, since they're residential 1-way streets (as opposed to Springfield, which of course is a major 2-way roadway)..... Quite honestly, the only thing I don't care for w/ the Q36 is that all service runs along 212th - I think some of that service should be divvied up anyway..... Q36's running via Springfield would be more popular than the Q1 running to Jamaica/Springfield - Even if I were to leave the Q36 ending inside 165th....

 

Something else I'd like to accomplish in the bus system is to have a route running to eastern Queens (from LIRR Jamaica) via Jamaica av (commercial; major shopping strip), eventually making its way back up to Hillside... Something like what the Q30/31 does, except it would remain on Hillside due east..... I'm not suggesting this happen, but I have wondered in the past how a Q17 to Sutphin (via Jamaica av, after passing by 165th bus terminal) would pan out....

 

What you mention regarding LTD service (west of 165th) I think should happen anyway... The only difference is (w/ the Q36 LTD's specifically), I'd have the LTD portion ending at Springfield/Jamaica, instead of Springfield/Hillside (since local service would run concurrent w/ LTD service along Springfield).....

 

To ease confusion, let me just spell it out.... The Q36 has the patterns:

- from LIRR Jamaica to Jamaica/257th (local via Springfield)

- from LIRR Jamaica to Jamaica/257th (LTD via Springfield) - rush hours only

- from LIRR Jamaica to LIRR QV (local via 212th st/212pl)

 

Any short turns from the due east would be handled by those very few Q43's that start @ 179th (PM rush).... I don't see them on the Q43 schedule, but they do exist.... I don't know how many trips do it & how frequent its done......

 

As far as the 50/50 thing, the pre-2010 service pattern is what I'm suggesting.... It seems like you're implicating that the Q36 should have been running to LIRR Little Neck all along.... I agree w/ NewFlyer's sentiments 100% regarding the f**king up of frequency of Q36 service with that - and worse, those buses do not carry..... Again, the Q79 was more utilized than the currently extended Q36's are.... To me, they're more wasteful than the old Q79....

 

An example of where frugality made sense was the merging of the old S60 into the S66 (staten island).... S66 is much less utilized than the Q36, yeah, but having Q36's run all the way up to Little Neck affects Q36 service (even if it is every 4th bus or whatever it is) more than having the S66 diverted via Grymes Hill....

 

I guess I'll ask... What is it you don't agree with, about not having the Q36 run to Little Neck?

Edited March 30, 2016 by B35 via Church

[B35 via Church]

Would the LTD service run outside of rush hour? (And would the short-turns be full-time?)

 

I know notation isn't a big deal for you, but I do agree with BM5 that it would be simpler to just label those short-turns as Q1s.

That way you avoid any confusion "Oh, I'm waiting on 212th for a bus to head towards the county line" (regardless of how small a riderbase that is).

 

On a service-related note, I think the short-turns should terminate at 165th on the western end. Considering a good chunk of riders are only looking to get to the train, sending them to Jamaica LIRR is overkill. The Q36 LTD & Q43 LTD with however many buses per hour you want to send out there should be plenty of service. (Aside from that, it'll also help with the reliability by keeping the locals nice and compact)

 

 

You should send that memo to the people who designed the M60 & Q44 +SBS+. 

 

 

I was actually referring to the locals being overcrowded, while the limiteds have spare capacity. But yeah, I was never fond of that Q36 extension.

A flat-out "let's just stick these two routes together" type of deal (Probably the same genius who extended the X17 to Tottenville, but that's another story).

To spare myself from repeating the same points, refer to the reply I made to BM5.....

 

As far as specific commentary [meaning, aside from the whole too much service to LIRR Jamaica/Short turning buses at 165th (which is what I'm trying to eliminate w/ the discontinuation of the Q1 & a westward Q36 extension)], I'll address that here.....

 

- I don't know which LTD service you're referring to, so I'll answer to both..... I wouldn't have the Q36 LTD running outside of peak times - even if I were to have the n24 operate fully closed door in Queens (instead of the open door policy that begins east of (around) the cross island pkwy area; one of the side streets in the area)....

 

However, I would like to instantiate Q43 LTD's outside of peak times.... The drawback to this is the # of locals (to 268th) would have to slim down a bit though.... I wouldn't give (the Q43 via) Braddock service every 10 mins on the rush (as per BM5, although he said that in lieu of axing the Q1 LIRR QV branch... I'd rather get rid of the Q1 entirely than to keep it alive to only have it serve Braddock at that high a frequency)... Braddock does not need that.... That is by far more overkill than having all Q36's and Q43's running to Sutphin.... I would not give Braddock anymore service than 3 BPH for any part of the day....

 

- It isn't a case of overcrowding with the Q36 locals.... Again, the n24 takes pax off of the Q36's hands, believe it or not....

 

- I don't even want to get started w/ that x17 BS.... The fact that there are as many trips that run to/from Tottenville makes it even worse.... 2.5 hours scheduled runtimes have no place in this city.... Save that for the NJT #559 (which is an hour more) or the S92 (suffolk)...

[Union Tpke]

Sell the air rights to a developer who'll build on top of it.

 

165 is in a weird location. They should relocate it somewhere closer to the subway and build a more neighborhood friendly bus terminal.

 

do you know where it should go? Should it be moved closer to the or ?

[NewFlyer 230]

The problem I see with Queens compared to Brooklyn and the Bronx is the lack of subways and the lack of fully developed commercial areas. A lot of these areas rely on subway connection such as Queens Center Mall, Flushing and Jamaica.

How it works in NYC is that if it doesn't connect to the subway then it's not efficient. If the had more stops on Hillside including one at Francis Lewis Blvd the Q76 and Q77 would most definitely do better than it does now. The Q79 would have seen better usage if the subway connected to it. You have so many who still use their cars in eastern Queens because the existing subway system is beyond capacity and the bus is a slower mode of transportation.

Back to the Q1, Q36 and Q43 discussion, I feel the Q79 should not come back. It will always be doomed to fail. The Q36 should serve 257th street at all times. Going all the way north to Little Neck LIRR messes up the frequency and buses are late and bunch.

I said that the Q43 made the most sense going up there because it is very frequent as it is. At rush hour especially in the morning every 8-9th Q43 can serve Little Neck. The LTD's run during rush so that will provide the speediest trip. The Q1 provides additional service on Hillside. That little part between Jamaica Ave and Hillside is nothing too major to worry about as long as you have the majority of Little Neck covered.

In my opinion it doesn't seem like they want the service because if they needed it they would be using it. I've never seen any bus on Little Neck that was a third full or anything else. Most of the time the bus is empty or it has no more than three people aboard.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

The problem I see with Queens compared to Brooklyn and the Bronx is the lack of subways and the lack of fully developed commercial areas. A lot of these areas rely on subway connection such as Queens Center Mall, Flushing and Jamaica.

How it works in NYC is that if it doesn't connect to the subway then it's not efficient. If the had more stops on Hillside including one at Francis Lewis Blvd the Q76 and Q77 would most definitely do better than it does now. The Q79 would have seen better usage if the subway connected to it. You have so many who still use their cars in eastern Queens because the existing subway system is beyond capacity and the bus is a slower mode of transportation.

Back to the Q1, Q36 and Q43 discussion, I feel the Q79 should not come back. It will always be doomed to fail. The Q36 should serve 257th street at all times. Going all the way north to Little Neck LIRR messes up the frequency and buses are late and bunch.

I said that the Q43 made the most sense going up there because it is very frequent as it is. At rush hour especially in the morning every 8-9th Q43 can serve Little Neck. The LTD's run during rush so that will provide the speediest trip. The Q1 provides additional service on Hillside. That little part between Jamaica Ave and Hillside is nothing too major to worry about as long as you have the majority of Little Neck covered.

In my opinion it doesn't seem like they want the service because if they needed it they would be using it. I've never seen any bus on Little Neck that was a third full or anything else. Most of the time the bus is empty or it has no more than three people aboard.

The Q43 LTD can also be unreliable, especially due to the traffic in and out of Jamaica LIRR, and on Hillside too. Also, I don't think most od those riders are going to Jamaica anyway.

The Springfield Q36's would run concurrent with the Q36's that run via 212th.....

 

I don't agree with the notion that there would be too many buses running to Sutphin... The problem I have w/ the current setup is that, outside all of the Hillside buses, the Q43 is the only route that runs past (west of) 165th.... 165th is an inconvenient (which is the main problem I have w/ it) dumping ground that has too many taking the MTABus buses there from the west for bus service due east, or actually walking (usually from along Jamaica av) to the terminal.... That, and the Q43 carries to (and especially from) Sutphin; it isn't like buses are carrying air exactly west of 169th .... One could extend the Q1 to Sutphin, but the problem I have w/ that is that service would be divided into running via Springfield & via Braddock.... I'd rather service be divided up b/w via Springfield & via 212th.... The point is that the Q1 is easily consolidable & should be consolidated..... Doesn't have to be my way exactly, but the Q1 as is, I believe needs to go.....

 

As far as different route numbers, nah, I don't want to give off the impression that they're different services..... It would all be under the Q36 "umbrella", so to speak..... I would rather short turn buses on the eastern end than on the western end.... There is way more ridership on the Sutphin end than on the Jamaica/257th end obviously... This is one reason why I have the buses along 212th ending at LIRR QV, and the Springfield buses running the full distance.... Another reason is, Jamaica has more traffic lights compared to Hillside.... and vehicles (not just buses) drive a little slower on the 212's, since they're residential 1-way streets (as opposed to Springfield, which of course is a major 2-way roadway)..... Quite honestly, the only thing I don't care for w/ the Q36 is that all service runs along 212th - I think some of that service should be divvied up anyway..... Q36's running via Springfield would be more popular than the Q1 running to Jamaica/Springfield - Even if I were to leave the Q36 ending inside 165th....

 

Something else I'd like to accomplish in the bus system is to have a route running to eastern Queens (from LIRR Jamaica) via Jamaica av (commercial; major shopping strip), eventually making its way back up to Hillside... Something like what the Q30/31 does, except it would remain on Hillside due east..... I'm not suggesting this happen, but I have wondered in the past how a Q17 to Sutphin (via Jamaica av, after passing by 165th bus terminal) would pan out....

 

What you mention regarding LTD service (west of 165th) I think should happen anyway... The only difference is (w/ the Q36 LTD's specifically), I'd have the LTD portion ending at Springfield/Jamaica, instead of Springfield/Hillside (since local service would run concurrent w/ LTD service along Springfield).....

 

To ease confusion, let me just spell it out.... The Q36 has the patterns:

- from LIRR Jamaica to Jamaica/257th (local via Springfield)

- from LIRR Jamaica to Jamaica/257th (LTD via Springfield) - rush hours only

- from LIRR Jamaica to LIRR QV (local via 212th st/212pl)

 

Any short turns from the due east would be handled by those very few Q43's that start @ 179th (PM rush).... I don't see them on the Q43 schedule, but they do exist.... I don't know how many trips do it & how frequent its done......

 

As far as the 50/50 thing, the pre-2010 service pattern is what I'm suggesting.... It seems like you're implicating that the Q36 should have been running to LIRR Little Neck all along.... I agree w/ NewFlyer's sentiments 100% regarding the f**king up of frequency of Q36 service with that - and worse, those buses do not carry..... Again, the Q79 was more utilized than the currently extended Q36's are.... To me, they're more wasteful than the old Q79....

 

An example of where frugality made sense was the merging of the old S60 into the S66 (staten island).... S66 is much less utilized than the Q36, yeah, but having Q36's run all the way up to Little Neck affects Q36 service (even if it is every 4th bus or whatever it is) more than having the S66 diverted via Grymes Hill....

 

I guess I'll ask... What is it you don't agree with, about not having the Q36 run to Little Neck?

 

The problem with the Q17 is unreliability, and I believe if it is extended to Sutphin, then it should be broken up into two routes at Fresh Meadows.

 

Another slightly unrelated proposed with this, but say the Q17 was split into two routes. I was thinking of sending that line (whatever it would be called) towards Bay Terrace Shopping Center via Utopia Pkwy. To get to Utopia, there would be three options: 1. 188 Street to Utopia (b/d)    2. 188 Street, left on LIE, merge on Booth Memorial, right on Utopia (NB), and Utopia, left on 58 Ave, right on 188 Street (SB)    3. 188 to LIE to Utopia (B/D). It doesn't have to be every trip, but perhaps it may be an issue because the Q76 runs close to the route towards the north. 

 

As me being 50/50, I'm concerned that as a standalone route, the MTA would rather opt to eliminate it soon afterward. The way I see it, as it is, the amount of riders won't matter because the route generally gets a ton more ridership from Hillside and Jamaica Avenues, so it's not like the individual portion will be scrutinized. However, it is much easier not note how much ridership there really is if the Q79 was brought back. Granted, I don't think the MTA even wants to bring the Q79 back anyways.

 

When NICE originally started, I had a proposal where the n2 would've gone all the way to Little Neck, via Tulip Avenue, Floral Park LIRR, and Little Neck Park, running every 30 minutes as it is on weekdays, and maybe every hour on Saturdays. The runtime on the line wold be close to 52 minutes (and give 8 minutes of recovery at Green Acres). Since this service serves NYC and Nassau residents, the City would subsidize the cost of running the service within NYC (which if subsidized by NICE buses's cost per hour, would come up to around $8.8 million a year).

Edited March 31, 2016 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Gotham Bus Co.]

When NICE originally started, I had a proposal where the n2 would've gone all the way to Little Neck, via Tulip Avenue, Floral Park LIRR, and Little Neck Park, running every 30 minutes as it is on weekdays, and maybe every hour on Saturdays. The runtime on the line wold be close to 52 minutes (and give 8 minutes of recovery at Green Acres). Since this service serves NYC and Nassau residents, the City would subsidize the cost of running the service within NYC (which if subsidized by NICE buses's cost per hour, would come up to around $8.8 million a year).

 

The Village of Floral Park doesn't want buses on Tulip Avenue.

[bobtehpanda]

Personally, I would reorganize the Q43 and Q1 by swapping their terminals. Not that many people ride from before 169 to after Springfield, and I can say that because I used to do that trip regularly at various times of day. Make an all-local route from Springfield to Sutphin/Archer, and have all buses running past Springfield run LTD. But I wouldn't want to cut Q43 service by too much, because then the Q46 would get slammed even harder than it is now; as it is, even though it takes me twice as long to walk to the Q46, travel time is about the same once you account for frequency.

 

Potential service plan:

 

Q43: 165 to 268/Hillside, LTD in both directions west of Springfield during peak hours.

Q36: 165 to 256/Jamaica via 212 and Jamaica: LTD in both directions west of Springfield during peak hours.

Q1: Sutphin/Archer to 256/Jamaica via Winchester and Braddock, local all times. Routing via Winchester to serve Martin Van Buren.

Q79: On one hand, I don't think the Q36 extension has good ridership, but the Q79 was really nothing more than a glorified LIRR shuttle that didn't even meet the trains. So it could go either way (but I lean on the side of not having it at all in either a Q36 or Q79 form; it would come so infrequently that it is usually faster to take the Q27 to Bell and hoof it to Northern.)

Edited March 31, 2016 by bobtehpanda

[Q43LTD]

Personally, I would reorganize the Q43 and Q1 by swapping their terminals. Not that many people ride from before 169 to after Springfield, and I can say that because I used to do that trip regularly at various times of day. Make an all-local route from Springfield to Sutphin/Archer, and have all buses running past Springfield run LTD. But I wouldn't want to cut Q43 service by too much, because then the Q46 would get slammed even harder than it is now; as it is, even though it takes me twice as long to walk to the Q46, travel time is about the same once you account for frequency.

 

Potential service plan:

 

Q43: 165 to 268/Hillside, LTD in both directions west of Springfield during peak hours.

Q36: 165 to 256/Jamaica via 212 and Jamaica: LTD in both directions west of Springfield during peak hours.

Q1: Sutphin/Archer to 256/Jamaica via Winchester and Braddock, local all times. Routing via Winchester to serve Martin Van Buren.

Q79: On one hand, I don't think the Q36 extension has good ridership, but the Q79 was really nothing more than a glorified LIRR shuttle that didn't even meet the trains. So it could go either way (but I lean on the side of not having it at all in either a Q36 or Q79 form; it would come so infrequently that it is usually faster to take the Q27 to Bell and hoof it to Northern.)

I don't think Winchester residents would welcome a bus on their street

[B35 via Church]

.....Back to the Q1, Q36 and Q43 discussion, I feel the Q79 should not come back. It will always be doomed to fail. The Q36 should serve 257th street at all times. Going all the way north to Little Neck LIRR messes up the frequency and buses are late and bunch.

I said that the Q43 made the most sense going up there because it is very frequent as it is. At rush hour especially in the morning every 8-9th Q43 can serve Little Neck. The LTD's run during rush so that will provide the speediest trip. The Q1 provides additional service on Hillside. That little part between Jamaica Ave and Hillside is nothing too major to worry about as long as you have the majority of Little Neck covered.

In my opinion it doesn't seem like they want the service because if they needed it they would be using it. I've never seen any bus on Little Neck that was a third full or anything else. Most of the time the bus is empty or it has no more than three people aboard.

Who contested what you said about the Q43 making the most sense, before this post of yours?

 

Well since you're reinforcing that point for whatever reason, I'm going to say that's where I disagree with you 100%....

The Q43 can be more direct to heading towards Jamaica (than the Q36) & operate more frequently (than the Q36), and that sucker would still carry a lackluster amount of pax. along LNP.... Frequencies would still be screwed up for riders b/w LNP & 268th; that issue wouldn't only be unique to these Q36's running up there....

 

You don't have to agree w/ restoring the Q79, but as far as I'm concerned, it's either restore the Q79, or leave LNP with nothing at all.... Any extension of current east-west routes that cross or run in the immediate vicinity of LNP are all band-aid solutions that would f*** up service for the masses of riders that utilize these east-west routes.... And when I say "these east-west routes", I'm referring to the Q36, Q43, Q46, Q30, and the Q12...

 

The Q43 LTD can also be unreliable, especially due to the traffic in and out of Jamaica LIRR, and on Hillside too. Also, I don't think most od those riders are going to Jamaica anyway.

 

 

The problem with the Q17 is unreliability, and I believe if it is extended to Sutphin, then it should be broken up into two routes at Fresh Meadows.

 

Another slightly unrelated proposed with this, but say the Q17 was split into two routes. I was thinking of sending that line (whatever it would be called) towards Bay Terrace Shopping Center via Utopia Pkwy. To get to Utopia, there would be three options: 1. 188 Street to Utopia (b/d)    2. 188 Street, left on LIE, merge on Booth Memorial, right on Utopia (NB), and Utopia, left on 58 Ave, right on 188 Street (SB)    3. 188 to LIE to Utopia (B/D). It doesn't have to be every trip, but perhaps it may be an issue because the Q76 runs close to the route towards the north. 

 

As me being 50/50, I'm concerned that as a standalone route, the MTA would rather opt to eliminate it soon afterward. The way I see it, as it is, the amount of riders won't matter because the route generally gets a ton more ridership from Hillside and Jamaica Avenues, so it's not like the individual portion will be scrutinized. However, it is much easier not note how much ridership there really is if the Q79 was brought back. Granted, I don't think the MTA even wants to bring the Q79 back anyways.

 

When NICE originally started, I had a proposal where the n2 would've gone all the way to Little Neck, via Tulip Avenue, Floral Park LIRR, and Little Neck Park, running every 30 minutes as it is on weekdays, and maybe every hour on Saturdays. The runtime on the line wold be close to 52 minutes (and give 8 minutes of recovery at Green Acres). Since this service serves NYC and Nassau residents, the City would subsidize the cost of running the service within NYC (which if subsidized by NICE buses's cost per hour, would come up to around $8.8 million a year).

Lol, Jamaica? I highly doubt they're going past Springfield.....

 

Anyway, I understand the MTA isn't going to bring back the Q79, that wasn't what I was asking... But that statement in bold, gotta throw the flag on the play on that one -

 

By that logic, the B12 would have never gotten cut back to Alabama av - You mean to tell me the individual portion along Liberty wasn't scrutinized? The current B12 didn't get a ton (figuratively speaking) more ridership? Same deal with the Q24 along Broadway; that portion wasn't scrutinized either? (even though they brought that section of the route back almost 3 years later ).... The June 2010 - January 2013 rendition of the Q24 wasn't carrying heavy?

 

No, what it is, is that the MTA picks & chooses what portions of what routes (as we saw in 2010, entire routes were not exempt) they want to scrutinize.... Nobody wants to see cuts, but the metric/methodology service gets cut is not consistent with this agency.... I guess that's the part that bugs me more than anything.... The justification of bullshit (a la, these very Q36's going to Little Neck) is the icing on the cake.... It isn't that they aren't scrutinizing the Q36's along LNP - they're sticking their collective fingers in their ear going lalalalalala, because they knew full well why they decided to cut the Q79 & that a swathe of riders weren't going to start embarking on Q36's up along LNP, justifying that move.....

 

Collateral Damage... Of course the same/equivalent amount of usage the Q79 garnered won't be recouped with a revival, but at the same time, I refuse to believe this (the extended Q36's) is the best of the worst situation simply because it exists.... That's called drinking the kool-aid - didn't do it as a kid & I aint doin it now (figuratively & literally; I could not tell you what kool-aid tastes like; never had the stuff ).....

 

As for extending buses via Tulip, yeah, the suggesting of running the Q79 down to LIRR Floral Park was a heavy consensus on the transit forums back in the day (I don't know what year you first stepped into this little community, but I believe you were around long enough to have been a part of such discussions)..... You mention an n2 extension when Veolia stepped on the scene.... I think we can agree the point is, is that any route running along LNP emanating at LIRR Little Neck from the north, shouldn't have had Jamaica av as its southern terminal.....

 

Same logic (and southern-most endpoint/street) as the Q27, before that ended up running down to Cambria Hgts....

 

 

 

One more post to go....

 

Personally, I would reorganize the Q43 and Q1 by swapping their terminals. Not that many people ride from before 169 to after Springfield, and I can say that because I used to do that trip regularly at various times of day. Make an all-local route from Springfield to Sutphin/Archer, and have all buses running past Springfield run LTD. But I wouldn't want to cut Q43 service by too much, because then the Q46 would get slammed even harder than it is now; as it is, even though it takes me twice as long to walk to the Q46, travel time is about the same once you account for frequency.

 

Potential service plan:

 

Q43: 165 to 268/Hillside, LTD in both directions west of Springfield during peak hours.

Q36: 165 to 256/Jamaica via 212 and Jamaica: LTD in both directions west of Springfield during peak hours.

Q1: Sutphin/Archer to 256/Jamaica via Winchester and Braddock, local all times. Routing via Winchester to serve Martin Van Buren.

 

Q79: On one hand, I don't think the Q36 extension has good ridership, but the Q79 was really nothing more than a glorified LIRR shuttle that didn't even meet the trains. So it could go either way (but I lean on the side of not having it at all in either a Q36 or Q79 form; it would come so infrequently that it is usually faster to take the Q27 to Bell and hoof it to Northern.)

To some extent, yeah, but people still utilized the Q79 (more than what some would have you think anyway) b/w Northern & Jamaica.... Union Tpke was a major destination for those riding from either end of the route.... When I would fan the Q12 to LNP, I remember riding a few Q79's (when they had the buses w/ the (raggedy) cushioned seats; the same ones they used to throw on the Q77 a couple years back) where people were actually standing with almost every seat taken... Of course those were anomalies, but I could never figure out at the time what caused all those people to be on these buses....

 

As far as the Q1/36/43 part of the post/plan is concerned, I think there should be LTD service, minimum b/w Sutphin & Springfield.... Yes, you're speeding up service for the masses that utilize the from points east, but IMO, you're shunning those riders (of LTD service) that board Q43's b/w Sutphin/Archer & Sutphin/Hillside especially.... Your plan is somewhat akin to that B6 "experiment" the MTA did, that had locals running the full distance from New Lots to Ulmer pk. depot, and the LTD's running from Canarsie to Ulmer pk. depot.....

[IAlam]

The problem with the Q17 is unreliability, and I believe if it is extended to Sutphin, then it should be broken up into two routes at Fresh Meadows.

 

Another slightly unrelated proposed with this, but say the Q17 was split into two routes. I was thinking of sending that line (whatever it would be called) towards Bay Terrace Shopping Center via Utopia Pkwy. To get to Utopia, there would be three options: 1. 188 Street to Utopia (b/d)    2. 188 Street, left on LIE, merge on Booth Memorial, right on Utopia (NB), and Utopia, left on 58 Ave, right on 188 Street (SB)    3. 188 to LIE to Utopia (B/D). It doesn't have to be every trip, but perhaps it may be an issue because the Q76 runs close to the route towards the north. 

TBH the Q17 run as two routes during rush hour as most buses short run although the Q17 ridership is light on the L.I.E there's enough to keep it there. The reason why the Q17 has less riders is because it runs 3x or more than the frequency as the Q88 cut 2/3 of those buses and not even a arctic would be able to handle the riders. 

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

1) This is a proposal basically to change the boarding of local and Limited buses on the Q46 at Union Turnpike. It sucks to wait on one of those lines, especially during rush hour, only for the bus to stop at the other stop, and that line is long. Basically, instead of separating the Q46's by branch at Union Turnpike, it would be separated by Local/Limited. 

 

2)Here's a different proposal involving the X63/QM21. It's been discussed before, but here's a different proposal

The are two proposals, however the routing in Queens for both proposals will be as follows.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=z7P2QilxQnLY.kt7gfngXOZTo&usp=sharing

 

Proposal One: 

 

QM21- Discontinued

X63: Will operate at combined X63/QM21 Frequency. The X63 will be have two variations in Manhattan. Variation One will be 34 Street to 5 Avenue to 23 Street, and terminate at First Avenue (via Madison Avenue to Queens). Buses will make stops on 34 Street. This variation though will have a different notation, X61.

 

 

 

 

Estimated departures for X61 from Rosedale:

 

5:51 AM, 6:16 AM, 6:36 AM, 6:56 AM, 7:16 AM, 7:36 AM, 7:56 AM 

 

 

 

 

The X63 would operate as the current X68 does in Midtown with the 57 Street trips for most trips. The last few trips would be all stops trips, running along the current QM21 routing. 

 

 

 

 

Estimated departures for X63 from Rosedale:

5:41 AM, 6:01 AM, 6:21 AM, 6:41 AM, 7:01 AM, 7:21 AM, 7:41 AM, 8:01 AM, 8:35 AM (ALL STOPS), 9:45 AM (ALL STOPS), 10:55 AM (ALL STOPS)

 

 

 

 

Returning from Manhattan, the midday X63 buses will begin at Lexington Avenue, while rush hours will begin at 1 Avenue. 

 

 

Departures of X63 to Rosedale (ALL STOPS): (Originates at Lexington Avenue)

11:50 AM, 1:00 PM, 2:10 PM, 3:00 PM, 3:50 PM *, 6:40 PM, 7:10 PM, 8:10 PM, 9:10 PM

 

X61 from 23 Street to Rosedale (23 ST > MADISON > 34 STREET, ORIGINATES AT 1ST AVE)

4:20 PM, 4:50 PM, 5:10 PM, 5:30 PM, 5:50 PM, 6:10 PM

 

X63 from 37 Street/3 Avenue to Rosedale (3 Av > 42 St > Madison Ave > 57 Street)

4:18 PM, 4:38 PM, 4:58 PM, 5:18 PM, 5:38 PM, 5:58 PM, 6:18 PM, 

 

* Originates at 1st Avenue

 

 

 

With terms of stop selection, under this plan, all X63 stops will be made, in addition to the QM21 stop at Park Avenue on 23 Street and 57 Street. The 25 Street and 29 Street stop on the X63 will be merged at27 Street (at current QM21 stop).

 

In Queens, All Linden Blvd stops will be made. The X61/X63 will no longer stop north of Linden Blvd during the rush hour. However, the X63 will stop at those stops, including Liberty Avenue on the following trips:

 

To Manhattan: 9:45 AM, 10:55 AM

From Manhattan: 11:55 AM, 1:00 PM, 2:10 PM, 3:00 PM, 3:50 PM, 7:10 PM (Liberty Ave only), 8:10 PM, 9:10 PM. 

 

This adds service on 3 Avenue up to 42 Street in the PM, but discontinues 3 Avenue service north of 42 Street. Some other service will be modified. Service will be faster for most riding the X61/X63. This proposal also uses the same amount of buses as the current X63 and QM21 use during the rush hours and evenings. There will higher costs due to the added runtime, although the faster X61/X63 trips during the rush should reduce the net increase in costs. The net increase should not be much.

 

 

Proposal Two: 

QM21- Renamed X61 and Extended to Rosedale. See Map for exact routings. The X61 will run off peak hours in Queens via Linden Blvd, Guy R Brewer Blvd, and Bedell Street. Rush hours, the route will run on Guy R Brewer Blvd and 137 Avenue. The X63 will be rerouted to serve Bedell Street between Farmers Blvd and Baisley Blvd (no stops are missed).

 

ALL buses from Rosedale will operate along the QM21 route in Manhattan in this proposal. Third Avenue service will be eliminated entirely. This proposal uses one extra bus than the current QM21 and X63 during the rush. The only reason it does is because one of the trips would have over a two hour layover at 23 Street if it DH's from Rosedale. You might as well try to pick up riders on the way there and DH in Manhattan to 23 Street. All X61 midday buses and evening buses will start at Lexington Avenue and 23 Street, making all X63 stops except 25 Street, 29 Street, and making the current QM21 stops at Park Avenue on both 23 Street and 57 Street, and 27 Street.

 

Here's how the setup would look like

 

 

 

To Manhattan:

X61 from Rosedale to Manhattan (via 137 Avenue)

6:01 AM, 6:31 AM, 6:53 AM, 7:13 AM, 7:33 AM, 7:58 AM

 

X63 from Rosedale to Manhattan

5:41 AM, 6:16 AM, 6:43 AM, 7:03 AM, 7:23 AM, 7:43 AM, 8:13 AM

 

X61 from Rosedale to Manhattan (via Bedell Street)

8:43 AM, 9:45 AM, 10:45 AM, 11:45 AM, 12:45 PM, 1:45 PM

 

To Queens: 

X61 from Midtown to Rosedale (via Bedell Street)

11:50 AM, 12:50 PM, 1:50 PM, 2:50 PM, 7:10 PM, 8:10 PM, 9:10 PM

 

X63 from Midtown to Rosedale 

3:50 PM, 4:11 PM, 4:31 PM, 4:51 PM, 5:11 PM, 5:33 PM, 6:03 PM, 6:33 PM 

 

X61 from Midtown to Rosedale (via 137 Avenue)

4:01 PM, 4:21 PM, 4:41 PM, 5:01 PM, 5:21 PM, 5:48 PM, 6:18 PM, 6:48 PM

 

 

 

In this proposal, no stops will be made north of Linden Blvd before 9:45 AM, and departures from 4:01 PM to 6:48 PM to Queens will not make any stops north of Linden Blvd. The 7:08 PM trip will make a stop at Liberty Avenue, then stop at Linden Blvd stops. All other trips will make all stops including Liberty Avenue (X64 stop).

 

Proposal three is similar to two, except the X63 pattern will be the pattern for ALL trips.

___________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Now, for replies:

TBH the Q17 run as two routes during rush hour as most buses short run although the Q17 ridership is light on the L.I.E there's enough to keep it there. The reason why the Q17 has less riders is because it runs 3x or more than the frequency as the Q88 cut 2/3 of those buses and not even a arctic would be able to handle the riders. 

The Q17 does pretty good, buses are usually SRO, and packed during the rush hour (to say the very least). I just think perhaps the Q17 could be split up. The problem is bunching.

Lol, Jamaica? I highly doubt they're going past Springfield.....

 

Anyway, I understand the MTA isn't going to bring back the Q79, that wasn't what I was asking... But that statement in bold, gotta throw the flag on the play on that one -

 

By that logic, the B12 would have never gotten cut back to Alabama av - You mean to tell me the individual portion along Liberty wasn't scrutinized? The current B12 didn't get a ton (figuratively speaking) more ridership? Same deal with the Q24 along Broadway; that portion wasn't scrutinized either? (even though they brought that section of the route back almost 3 years later ).... The June 2010 - January 2013 rendition of the Q24 wasn't carrying heavy?

 

No, what it is, is that the MTA picks & chooses what portions of what routes (as we saw in 2010, entire routes were not exempt) they want to scrutinize.... Nobody wants to see cuts, but the metric/methodology service gets cut is not consistent with this agency.... I guess that's the part that bugs me more than anything.... The justification of bullshit (a la, these very Q36's going to Little Neck) is the icing on the cake.... It isn't that they aren't scrutinizing the Q36's along LNP - they're sticking their collective fingers in their ear going lalalalalala, because they knew full well why they decided to cut the Q79 & that a swathe of riders weren't going to start embarking on Q36's up along LNP, justifying that move.....

 

Collateral Damage... Of course the same/equivalent amount of usage the Q79 garnered won't be recouped with a revival, but at the same time, I refuse to believe this (the extended Q36's) is the best of the worst situation simply because it exists.... That's called drinking the kool-aid - didn't do it as a kid & I aint doin it now (figuratively & literally; I could not tell you what kool-aid tastes like; never had the stuff ).....

 

As for extending buses via Tulip, yeah, the suggesting of running the Q79 down to LIRR Floral Park was a heavy consensus on the transit forums back in the day (I don't know what year you first stepped into this little community, but I believe you were around long enough to have been a part of such discussions)..... You mention an n2 extension when Veolia stepped on the scene.... I think we can agree the point is, is that any route running along LNP emanating at LIRR Little Neck from the north, shouldn't have had Jamaica av as its southern terminal.....

 

Same logic (and southern-most endpoint/street) as the Q27, before that ended up running down to Cambria Hgts....

 

While I think the MTA cut the Q24 to Bdwy Junction simply because of the subway, I guess you have a point with the B12. 

 

I'm open to any suggestion quite frankly that is better than the Q36. One problem, (besides reliability) that I have with the current Q36 to Little Neck is the headway on Little Neck Pkwy. I don't think 40 minute headways would be attractive for anyone quite frankly. The old Q79 setup was better in that regard. As for a southern terminal on the Q79, is there another place (other than Floral Park LIRR) where it would be an ideal terminal?

Edited April 1, 2016 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[IAlam]

The Q17 does pretty good, buses are usually SRO, and packed during the rush hour (to say the very least). I just think perhaps the Q17 could be split up.

The Q17 is fine as it is. Since the short run only go from Flushing to 188th st and there should be more mid day short run instead of full runs more people use the flushing half than the jamaica half. If anything the Q17 should be operated from CS and Jamaica should get the Q20

[bobtehpanda]

Who contested what you said about the Q43 making the most sense, before this post of yours?

 

Well since you're reinforcing that point for whatever reason, I'm going to say that's where I disagree with you 100%....

The Q43 can be more direct to heading towards Jamaica (than the Q36) & operate more frequently (than the Q36), and that sucker would still carry a lackluster amount of pax. along LNP.... Frequencies would still be screwed up for riders b/w LNP & 268th; that issue wouldn't only be unique to these Q36's running up there....

 

You don't have to agree w/ restoring the Q79, but as far as I'm concerned, it's either restore the Q79, or leave LNP with nothing at all.... Any extension of current east-west routes that cross or run in the immediate vicinity of LNP are all band-aid solutions that would f*** up service for the masses of riders that utilize these east-west routes.... And when I say "these east-west routes", I'm referring to the Q36, Q43, Q46, Q30, and the Q12...

 

Lol, Jamaica? I highly doubt they're going past Springfield.....

 

Anyway, I understand the MTA isn't going to bring back the Q79, that wasn't what I was asking... But that statement in bold, gotta throw the flag on the play on that one -

 

By that logic, the B12 would have never gotten cut back to Alabama av - You mean to tell me the individual portion along Liberty wasn't scrutinized? The current B12 didn't get a ton (figuratively speaking) more ridership? Same deal with the Q24 along Broadway; that portion wasn't scrutinized either? (even though they brought that section of the route back almost 3 years later ).... The June 2010 - January 2013 rendition of the Q24 wasn't carrying heavy?

 

No, what it is, is that the MTA picks & chooses what portions of what routes (as we saw in 2010, entire routes were not exempt) they want to scrutinize.... Nobody wants to see cuts, but the metric/methodology service gets cut is not consistent with this agency.... I guess that's the part that bugs me more than anything.... The justification of bullshit (a la, these very Q36's going to Little Neck) is the icing on the cake.... It isn't that they aren't scrutinizing the Q36's along LNP - they're sticking their collective fingers in their ear going lalalalalala, because they knew full well why they decided to cut the Q79 & that a swathe of riders weren't going to start embarking on Q36's up along LNP, justifying that move.....

 

Collateral Damage... Of course the same/equivalent amount of usage the Q79 garnered won't be recouped with a revival, but at the same time, I refuse to believe this (the extended Q36's) is the best of the worst situation simply because it exists.... That's called drinking the kool-aid - didn't do it as a kid & I aint doin it now (figuratively & literally; I could not tell you what kool-aid tastes like; never had the stuff ).....

 

As for extending buses via Tulip, yeah, the suggesting of running the Q79 down to LIRR Floral Park was a heavy consensus on the transit forums back in the day (I don't know what year you first stepped into this little community, but I believe you were around long enough to have been a part of such discussions)..... You mention an n2 extension when Veolia stepped on the scene.... I think we can agree the point is, is that any route running along LNP emanating at LIRR Little Neck from the north, shouldn't have had Jamaica av as its southern terminal.....

 

Same logic (and southern-most endpoint/street) as the Q27, before that ended up running down to Cambria Hgts....

 

 

 

One more post to go....

 

To some extent, yeah, but people still utilized the Q79 (more than what some would have you think anyway) b/w Northern & Jamaica.... Union Tpke was a major destination for those riding from either end of the route.... When I would fan the Q12 to LNP, I remember riding a few Q79's (when they had the buses w/ the (raggedy) cushioned seats; the same ones they used to throw on the Q77 a couple years back) where people were actually standing with almost every seat taken... Of course those were anomalies, but I could never figure out at the time what caused all those people to be on these buses....

 

As far as the Q1/36/43 part of the post/plan is concerned, I think there should be LTD service, minimum b/w Sutphin & Springfield.... Yes, you're speeding up service for the masses that utilize the from points east, but IMO, you're shunning those riders (of LTD service) that board Q43's b/w Sutphin/Archer & Sutphin/Hillside especially.... Your plan is somewhat akin to that B6 "experiment" the MTA did, that had locals running the full distance from New Lots to Ulmer pk. depot, and the LTD's running from Canarsie to Ulmer pk. depot.....

 

I don't know if there's a "mass" of people, specifically looking for LTD service and going to Sutphin, versus them just doing that because the Q43 is the only route past 165 right now and it happens to run LTD. Heck, outside of peak hour the Q43 isn't even LTD. I don't think it would be such a great disservice to put people giong past 165 on an all-local bus.

 

I think of it more like the B46 truncation; for a variety of reasons, the Q43 west of 165 is the most unreliable segment of the route, and it isn't where the route carries the most either. It also gives the Q1 more of a reason to exist (as opposed to just being the backup Q43 at 179th). I also threw in a rerouting to serve Martin Van Buren high school and an extension to the Q36 terminus to boost ridership even further.

[checkmatechamp13]

In my opinion it doesn't seem like they want the service because if they needed it they would be using it. I've never seen any bus on Little Neck that was a third full or anything else. Most of the time the bus is empty or it has no more than three people aboard.

 

It's not the riders' fault if the route doesn't meet their needs, and they have to take alternate forms of transportation (be it other bus routes, or their personal vehicle or taxi/car service/Uber/whatever)

 

I can't stand the phrasing of these types of arguments, as if it's the fault of the few riders who did use the service that "they weren't using it enough". What are they supposed to do? Clone themselves?

 

Since this service serves NYC and Nassau residents, the City would subsidize the cost of running the service within NYC (which if subsidized by NICE buses's cost per hour, would come up to around $8.8 million a year).

 

The S60 ran one bus back in 2010, and its elimination saved around $400,000 (of which $150,000 was reinvested into the S66 diversion). Running hourly headways along Little Neck Parkway would probably cost around $1 million a year. 30 minute headways would cost approximately double that.

 

The Village of Floral Park doesn't want buses on Tulip Avenue.

 

And service along Little Neck Parkway is a need for those riders who depend on it.

 

[B35 via Church]

I don't know if there's a "mass" of people, specifically looking for LTD service and going to Sutphin, versus them just doing that because the Q43 is the only route past 165 right now and it happens to run LTD. Heck, outside of peak hour the Q43 isn't even LTD. I don't think it would be such a great disservice to put people giong past 165 on an all-local bus.

 

I think of it more like the B46 truncation; for a variety of reasons, the Q43 west of 165 is the most unreliable segment of the route, and it isn't where the route carries the most either. It also gives the Q1 more of a reason to exist (as opposed to just being the backup Q43 at 179th). I also threw in a rerouting to serve Martin Van Buren high school and an extension to the Q36 terminus to boost ridership even further.

I could understand having a local segment of a LTD route west of 165th, but an all local route from LIRR Jamaica to Jamaica/257th? I can't side with that.... I see that as penalizing riders for needing to travel further distances (in this particular scenario/discussion, traveling west of the )..... While LTD service can exist to transport riders quicker to a popular destination short of its terminal, the purpose (or supposed purpose) of them is to cut down commuting times for the furthest distance(s) traveled.....

 

As far as what you say about the B46.... Well of course the further out you go (on any route), the more the reliability will decrease...

I'm not understanding how that justifies running service solely locally, though.... I still think that's being done w/ the B46 SBS' because it wouldn't fit a narrative, but that's another topic altogether.....

 

The re-routing to serve the H.S. I actually like, but it's the all local thing west of 165th I have quite the issue with.....

 

While I think the MTA cut the Q24 to Bdwy Junction simply because of the subway, I guess you have a point with the B12. 

 

I'm open to any suggestion quite frankly that is better than the Q36. One problem, (besides reliability) that I have with the current Q36 to Little Neck is the headway on Little Neck Pkwy. I don't think 40 minute headways would be attractive for anyone quite frankly. The old Q79 setup was better in that regard. As for a southern terminal on the Q79, is there another place (other than Floral Park LIRR) where it would be an ideal terminal?

Doesn't matter if the cut had to do w/ paralleling the subway (the Q24), the segment was still scrutinized...

 

I assumed they ran Q36's up LNP to match the frequency of the discontinued Q79 (guess I gave the MTA too much credit with that one, huh), that's why I never made a point regarding frequency in comparison of the 2 routes (segments)..... Come to find out it's actually worse w/ the 36? Now I'm not going to say that 10 minutes made that big a difference as to why hardly anyone takes these extended Q36's, but it sure as hell didn't help matters....

 

As for another possible southern terminal the 79 could have had (ideally).... IDK, maybe LIJ w/ the Q46? That's the only thing that comes to mind right now....

[bobtehpanda]

I could understand having a local segment of a LTD route west of 165th, but an all local route from LIRR Jamaica to Jamaica/257th? I can't side with that.... I see that as penalizing riders for needing to travel further distances (in this particular scenario/discussion, traveling west of the )..... While LTD service can exist to transport riders quicker to a popular destination short of its terminal, the purpose (or supposed purpose) of them is to cut down commuting times for the furthest distance(s) traveled.....

 

As far as what you say about the B46.... Well of course the further out you go (on any route), the more the reliability will decrease...

I'm not understanding how that justifies running service solely locally, though.... I still think that's being done w/ the B46 SBS' because it wouldn't fit a narrative, but that's another topic altogether.....

 

The re-routing to serve the H.S. I actually like, but it's the all local thing west of 165th I have quite the issue with.....

 

The Q1 currently takes about 20 minutes at 6PM on a Friday to go from 179th to Springfield. The Q43 takes about 14 minutes. (This is all according to Google Transit, which I find is pretty accurate.) So it is slower, yes, but not by any sort of ridiculous amount. In addition, from personal experience, the majority of those coming from west of 165 don't travel much further than Francis Lewis, so the time travel difference is not that significant. Sure, an all-local to Sutphin would suck, but right now the Q43 is all local west of 179th anyways, so it doesn't actually end up being that much of a difference.

 

There are two distinct riderbases on Hillside right now; those going to 179 and those going to Sutphin, and they don't overlap too much. With an all LTD Q43 and an all local Q1 they'll probably sort themselves into the respective bus line. I don't expect that many people east of Springfield to ride past 165; the extension east is meant to, with the routing by the HS, give the east of Springfield portion more passengers as opposed to what it's carrying now.

Edited April 1, 2016 by bobtehpanda

[B35 via Church]

The Q1 currently takes about 20 minutes at 6PM on a Friday to go from 179th to Springfield. The Q43 takes about 14 minutes. (This is all according to Google Transit, which I find is pretty accurate.) So it is slower, yes, but not by any sort of ridiculous amount. In addition, from personal experience, the majority of those coming from west of 165 don't travel much further than Francis Lewis, so the time travel difference is not that significant. Sure, an all-local to Sutphin would suck, but right now the Q43 is all local west of 179th anyways, so it doesn't actually end up being that much of a difference.

 

There are two distinct riderbases on Hillside right now; those going to 179 and those going to Sutphin, and they don't overlap too much. With an all LTD Q43 and an all local Q1 they'll probably sort themselves into the respective bus line. I don't expect that many people east of Springfield to ride past 165; the extension east is meant to, with the routing by the HS, give the east of Springfield portion more passengers as opposed to what it's carrying now.

Glad you put your main points of contention like that, because then you don't need (your) Q1 running east of Braddock/243rd (really, from Van Buren H.S. if it weren't for covering Braddock) from LIRR Jamaica, if your expectation of riders east of Springfield riding west of the is as low as you're conveying here that it'd be & the time differences you're explaining being not that significant or w/e - For whatever amount of riders you think would benefit from extending the (real) Q1 eastward to 257th/Jamaica, when they already have the Q36 at their disposal.....

 

You may as well structure service to have these routes going:

Q43: 165 to 268/Hillside, LTD in both directions west of Springfield during peak hours.

Q36: 165 to 256/Jamaica via 212 and Jamaica: LTD in both directions west of Springfield during peak hours.

Q1: Sutphin/Archer to Braddock/243rd via Winchester and Braddock, local all times.

 

1) This is a proposal basically to change the boarding of local and Limited buses on the Q46 at Union Turnpike. It sucks to wait on one of those lines, especially during rush hour, only for the bus to stop at the other stop, and that line is long. Basically, instead of separating the Q46's by branch at Union Turnpike, it would be separated by Local/Limited. 

 

2)Here's a different proposal involving the X63/QM21. It's been discussed before, but here's a different proposal

The are two proposals, however the routing in Queens for both proposals will be as follows.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=z7P2QilxQnLY.kt7gfngXOZTo&usp=sharing

 

Proposal One: 

 

QM21- Discontinued

X63: Will operate at combined X63/QM21 Frequency. The X63 will be have two variations in Manhattan. Variation One will be 34 Street to 5 Avenue to 23 Street, and terminate at First Avenue (via Madison Avenue to Queens). Buses will make stops on 34 Street. This variation though will have a different notation, X61.

 

 

 

 

Estimated departures for X61 from Rosedale:

 

5:51 AM, 6:16 AM, 6:36 AM, 6:56 AM, 7:16 AM, 7:36 AM, 7:56 AM 

 

 

 

 

The X63 would operate as the current X68 does in Midtown with the 57 Street trips for most trips. The last few trips would be all stops trips, running along the current QM21 routing. 

 

 

 

 

Estimated departures for X63 from Rosedale:

5:41 AM, 6:01 AM, 6:21 AM, 6:41 AM, 7:01 AM, 7:21 AM, 7:41 AM, 8:01 AM, 8:35 AM (ALL STOPS), 9:45 AM (ALL STOPS), 10:55 AM (ALL STOPS)

 

 

 

 

Returning from Manhattan, the midday X63 buses will begin at Lexington Avenue, while rush hours will begin at 1 Avenue. 

 

 

Departures of X63 to Rosedale (ALL STOPS): (Originates at Lexington Avenue)

11:50 AM, 1:00 PM, 2:10 PM, 3:00 PM, 3:50 PM *, 6:40 PM, 7:10 PM, 8:10 PM, 9:10 PM

 

X61 from 23 Street to Rosedale (23 ST > MADISON > 34 STREET, ORIGINATES AT 1ST AVE)

4:20 PM, 4:50 PM, 5:10 PM, 5:30 PM, 5:50 PM, 6:10 PM

 

X63 from 37 Street/3 Avenue to Rosedale (3 Av > 42 St > Madison Ave > 57 Street)

4:18 PM, 4:38 PM, 4:58 PM, 5:18 PM, 5:38 PM, 5:58 PM, 6:18 PM, 

 

* Originates at 1st Avenue

 

 

 

With terms of stop selection, under this plan, all X63 stops will be made, in addition to the QM21 stop at Park Avenue on 23 Street and 57 Street. The 25 Street and 29 Street stop on the X63 will be merged at27 Street (at current QM21 stop).

 

In Queens, All Linden Blvd stops will be made. The X61/X63 will no longer stop north of Linden Blvd during the rush hour. However, the X63 will stop at those stops, including Liberty Avenue on the following trips:

 

To Manhattan: 9:45 AM, 10:55 AM

From Manhattan: 11:55 AM, 1:00 PM, 2:10 PM, 3:00 PM, 3:50 PM, 7:10 PM (Liberty Ave only), 8:10 PM, 9:10 PM. 

 

This adds service on 3 Avenue up to 42 Street in the PM, but discontinues 3 Avenue service north of 42 Street. Some other service will be modified. Service will be faster for most riding the X61/X63. This proposal also uses the same amount of buses as the current X63 and QM21 use during the rush hours and evenings. There will higher costs due to the added runtime, although the faster X61/X63 trips during the rush should reduce the net increase in costs. The net increase should not be much.

 

 

Proposal Two: 

QM21- Renamed X61 and Extended to Rosedale. See Map for exact routings. The X61 will run off peak hours in Queens via Linden Blvd, Guy R Brewer Blvd, and Bedell Street. Rush hours, the route will run on Guy R Brewer Blvd and 137 Avenue. The X63 will be rerouted to serve Bedell Street between Farmers Blvd and Baisley Blvd (no stops are missed).

 

ALL buses from Rosedale will operate along the QM21 route in Manhattan in this proposal. Third Avenue service will be eliminated entirely. This proposal uses one extra bus than the current QM21 and X63 during the rush. The only reason it does is because one of the trips would have over a two hour layover at 23 Street if it DH's from Rosedale. You might as well try to pick up riders on the way there and DH in Manhattan to 23 Street. All X61 midday buses and evening buses will start at Lexington Avenue and 23 Street, making all X63 stops except 25 Street, 29 Street, and making the current QM21 stops at Park Avenue on both 23 Street and 57 Street, and 27 Street.

 

Here's how the setup would look like

 

 

 

To Manhattan:

X61 from Rosedale to Manhattan (via 137 Avenue)

6:01 AM, 6:31 AM, 6:53 AM, 7:13 AM, 7:33 AM, 7:58 AM

 

X63 from Rosedale to Manhattan

5:41 AM, 6:16 AM, 6:43 AM, 7:03 AM, 7:23 AM, 7:43 AM, 8:13 AM

 

X61 from Rosedale to Manhattan (via Bedell Street)

8:43 AM, 9:45 AM, 10:45 AM, 11:45 AM, 12:45 PM, 1:45 PM

 

To Queens: 

X61 from Midtown to Rosedale (via Bedell Street)

11:50 AM, 12:50 PM, 1:50 PM, 2:50 PM, 7:10 PM, 8:10 PM, 9:10 PM

 

X63 from Midtown to Rosedale 

3:50 PM, 4:11 PM, 4:31 PM, 4:51 PM, 5:11 PM, 5:33 PM, 6:03 PM, 6:33 PM 

 

X61 from Midtown to Rosedale (via 137 Avenue)

4:01 PM, 4:21 PM, 4:41 PM, 5:01 PM, 5:21 PM, 5:48 PM, 6:18 PM, 6:48 PM

 

 

 

In this proposal, no stops will be made north of Linden Blvd before 9:45 AM, and departures from 4:01 PM to 6:48 PM to Queens will not make any stops north of Linden Blvd. The 7:08 PM trip will make a stop at Liberty Avenue, then stop at Linden Blvd stops. All other trips will make all stops including Liberty Avenue (X64 stop).

 

Proposal three is similar to two, except the X63 pattern will be the pattern for ALL trips.

On first glance, this post was rather confusing.... I see the words "Proposal One:" under the second (actual) proposal & thinking to myself, what the heck does this have to do w/ the Q46.....

 

Anyway, I'll do it like this:

 

Q46 suggestion: I guess, but then you would have the whole double line thing going for both bus stops, wouldn't you?.... What I mean by that (for example) is, what goes on w/ the Q19 & the Q66 at the first pickup stop in Flushing.... When a Q19 arrives, everyone needing the Q66 steps back & then a new adjacent line forms for the Q19.....

 

QM21/x63 proposal: I had a proposal that involved fusing the QM21 into the x63 by simply making the QM21 a short-turned x63..... I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with your proposal, I would just keep it simple by discontinuing the QM21 that way....

[bobtehpanda]

Glad you put your main points of contention like that, because then you don't need (your) Q1 running east of Braddock/243rd (really, from Van Buren H.S. if it weren't for covering Braddock) from LIRR Jamaica, if your expectation of riders east of Springfield riding west of the is as low as you're conveying here that it'd be & the time differences you're explaining being not that significant or w/e - For whatever amount of riders you think would benefit from extending the (real) Q1 eastward to 257th/Jamaica, when they already have the Q36 at their disposal.....

 

You may as well structure service to have these routes going:

Q43: 165 to 268/Hillside, LTD in both directions west of Springfield during peak hours.

Q36: 165 to 256/Jamaica via 212 and Jamaica: LTD in both directions west of Springfield during peak hours.

Q1: Sutphin/Archer to Braddock/243rd via Winchester and Braddock, local all times.

 

On first glance, this post was rather confusing.... I see the words "Proposal One:" under the second (actual) proposal & thinking to myself, what the heck does this have to do w/ the Q46.....

 

Fair enough. I was just thinking that another 12 blocks would probably boost school ridership by a not insignificant amount, since the Q36 runs nowhere near it.

 

I've always wondered why, at stops where lots of people try to get on for two distinct bus lines, the MTA doesn't do what a lot of other cities does and just mark out two lines with paint or a fence, like so:

 

[Gotham Bus Co.]

Personally, I would reorganize the Q43 and Q1 by swapping their terminals. Not that many people ride from before 169 to after Springfield, and I can say that because I used to do that trip regularly at various times of day. Make an all-local route from Springfield to Sutphin/Archer, and have all buses running past Springfield run LTD. But I wouldn't want to cut Q43 service by too much, because then the Q46 would get slammed even harder than it is now; as it is, even though it takes me twice as long to walk to the Q46, travel time is about the same once you account for frequency.

 

Potential service plan:

 

Q43: 165 to 268/Hillside, LTD in both directions west of Springfield during peak hours.

Q36: 165 to 256/Jamaica via 212 and Jamaica: LTD in both directions west of Springfield during peak hours.

Q1: Sutphin/Archer to 256/Jamaica via Winchester and Braddock, local all times. Routing via Winchester to serve Martin Van Buren.

Q79: On one hand, I don't think the Q36 extension has good ridership, but the Q79 was really nothing more than a glorified LIRR shuttle that didn't even meet the trains. So it could go either way (but I lean on the side of not having it at all in either a Q36 or Q79 form; it would come so infrequently that it is usually faster to take the Q27 to Bell and hoof it to Northern.)

 

 I can already hear cries of "NIMBY" from the folks on Winchester.

 

 Is there enough space at 165th Street Terminal to accommodate the Q43?

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

On first glance, this post was rather confusing.... I see the words "Proposal One:" under the second (actual) proposal & thinking to myself, what the heck does this have to do w/ the Q46.....

 

Anyway, I'll do it like this:

 

Q46 suggestion: I guess, but then you would have the whole double line thing going for both bus stops, wouldn't you?.... What I mean by that (for example) is, what goes on w/ the Q19 & the Q66 at the first pickup stop in Flushing.... When a Q19 arrives, everyone needing the Q66 steps back & then a new adjacent line forms for the Q19.....

 

QM21/x63 proposal: I had a proposal that involved fusing the QM21 into the x63 by simply making the QM21 a short-turned x63..... I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with your proposal, I would just keep it simple by discontinuing the QM21 that way....

 

Q46: Well, not many ride out to the sole portion on the Glen Oaks branch, so I don't see that many problems with Glen Oaks residents. I see the case with the LIJ branch, since there are more people using that branch. However, most are not riding out all the way to Springfield Blvd. That's why I believe it would be much easier to sort between local and limited. The double line is less of an inconvenience compared to having a good portion of the other line jumping onto the first (and already long) line. During the AM anyways, all the LIJ buses are Limited, and there's no local bus to LIJ and Glen Oaks, so that shouldn't be a problem. Overnight hours, it obviously isn't an issue. The only times where it would be a conflict would be during midday hours at the local stop, and rush hours at the limited stop.

 

Also, with the Q46, I would add limited service in the PM rush on the LIJ branch only, at 8-10 minute headways, from 3:04 PM to 6:00 PM. It'll also even loads out on those Q46's east of 260 Street. The Glen Oaks branch would operate every 7 minutes. There would be about 0.3 less buses compared to the current setup. Because more buses are now not traveling the full distance, there is much more operational savings. That savings would go in part with adding Q46 LTD service towards LIJ at an earlier time period. The first LIJ bound Q46 Limited would now originate at Kew Gardens at 2:08 PM. The headways on the line would be every 8-10 minutes for service to LIJ, at even intervals. The current first limited at 4:24 PM would originate two minutes earlier and operate to LIJ instead. The first LTD to Glen Oaks would depart at 4:36 PM.

 

 

 

 

Q46 LTD to LIJ

2:08 PM, 2:18 PM, 2:28 PM, 2:38 PM, 2:48 PM, 2:58 PM, 3:08 PM, 3:18 PM, 3:28 PM, 3:38 PM, 3:47 PM, 3:56 PM, 4:05 PM, 4:14 PM, 4:22 PM, 4:30 PM, so on.....

 

Q46 Local to Glen Oaks

2:13 PM, 2:23 PM, 2:33 PM, 2:43 PM, 2:53 PM, 3:03 PM, 3:13 PM, 3:23 PM, 3:33 PM, 3:42 PM, 3:51 PM, 4:00 PM, 4:09 PM, 4:18 PM, 4:27 PM

 

Two more buses needed between 2:08 PM and 4:30 PM compared to current service plan (31 vs 29)

 

Q46 LTD to Kew Gardens:

3:04 PM, 3:14 PM, 3:24 PM, 3:34 PM, 3:44 PM, 3:54 PM, 4:04 PM, 4:13 PM, 4:22 PM, 4:31 PM, 4:40 PM, 4:48 PM, 5:04 PM, 5:12 PM, 5:20 PM, 5:30 PM, 5:40 PM, 5:50 PM, 6:00 PM, 6:11 PM

 

Q46 Local from Glen Oaks:

3:10 PM, 3:20 PM, 3:30 PM, 3:40 PM, 3:50 PM, 4:00 PM, 4:10 PM, 4:19 PM, 4:28 PM, 4:37 PM, 4:46 PM, 4:55 PM, 5:04 PM, 5:13 PM, 5:24 PM, 5:33 PM, 5:43 PM, 5:53 PM, 6:03 PM, 6:18 PM, so on...

 

2 extra buses needed during this time period

 

(40 vs 38)

 

 

 

The increase in short-turns at 260 Street also helps out because under the even headway, buses on the LIJ branch will be more packed, and the 260 Street branch relieves until Springfield. The increase in short-turns decreases cost, so this plan might be cost-neutral for all I know. 

 

X63: My reasoning for the way I split it up was to make the most out of the current service levels. Both options have it's pros and cons (such as option one being faster for X63 riders going to points south of 34 Street, and giving the X63 and QM21 riders some sort of midday and evening service, but the routing is indirect in South Jamaica, in addition to those south of Baisley Blvd on Guy R Brewer not having an express bus close by. The second options fixes that, but now Merrick Blvd north of Baisley Blvd will have 20 minute headways instead of 12 minute headways (and Guy R Brewer sees more frequent service), but most riders would also have midday service as well, more than in option one.

Edited April 2, 2016 by BM5 via Woodhaven