Queens Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[Gotham Bus Co.]

Two new proposals based on the 's study for new north-south routes:

Q86: A weekday only route that would be somewhat similar to the Q36. Both routes match between Jamaica and 212 St/Pl. From there, the Q86 breaks of at 93 Av and go onward to the Douglaston LIRR sta via Winchester Blvd and Douglaston Pkwy. A rush hour peak direction LTD will run in the same pattern as the Q36, and will also share the same LTD stops as the Q36.

Q87: A route running between Westchester Sq or Bay Terrace and Jamaica. It starts at the Archer Av bus terminal, then runs on the Q17 and Q1 to Springfield Blvd. From there, it will follow the Q27 to Union Tpke, then use the Tpke to get to Bell Blvd. This is the part where I get to the 2 different terminals. Either the Q87 could continue northward to the Q13/16 terminal, or it can go use the Q28 route in Bay Terrace and use the Throgs Neck bridge to get to Westchester Sq via the Bx40. If ridership is high enough, a LTD will also run and use Spencer Av instead of using Springfield Blvd and Union Tpke.

 

 

Q86:

- Can buses navigate the section of Douglaston Parkway and 235th Street between the L.I.E. and the Douglaston LIRR station? 

- Will the community even want buses along there?

 

 

Q87:

- Why not use 217th Street and Spencer to get from Hillside into Bell?

- Can buses navigate the narrow section (with the wide medians) between Horace Harding and 48th Avenue?

- If you're going to suggest a route linking the eastern Bronx with northeastern Queens, maybe it should use Springfield instead of Bell so it can loop through QCC. 

[B35 via Church]

I don't spend too much time in Astoria, so this may sound naive: Can anyone explain why the Q66 goes down 35th not 36th? 36th just seems like it would have a bus route on it, and the walk from 35th to the stores on 36th seems weird.

If I had to guess, I would say it's to provide better access to the Ravenswood Houses. Otherwise, I agree that 36th would be better, since it's more commercial and has the connection to the as well.

That seems like the reason. 35 Av cuts Ravenswood Houses in half.

IIRC, it had something to do with turning on/off Northern.... I don't remember the specifics though.....

 

Even though 36th is more commercial, 35th is more free-flowing....

(TBH, to me, this is moot b/c AFAIC, the Q66 shouldn't even be running anywhere near 21st, let alone to QBP)

 

The QBP bound Q66 runs for too long a stretch where buses are approaching, or are literally empty.....

Either have all trips running b/w 51st & Flushing, or divert it down 48th w/ the 104 & call it a day.....

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

IIRC, it had something to do with turning on/off Northern.... I don't remember the specifics though.....

 

Even though 36th is more commercial, 35th is more free-flowing....

(TBH, to me, this is moot b/c AFAIC, the Q66 shouldn't even be running anywhere near 21st, let alone to QBP)

 

The QBP bound Q66 runs for too long a stretch where buses are approaching, or are literally empty.....

Either have all trips running b/w 51st & Flushing, or divert it down 48th w/ the 104 & call it a day.....

That may me since the Q66 runs as a quasi-limited from 35 Avenue and to points south. If the Q66 made all stops, I'm certain there would be more ridership (and there would also be a slight decrease in headway on the Q69 because of that).

 

I too, have been on Q66's where I was the only one on until 35 Avenue.

[checkmatechamp13]

IIRC, it had something to do with turning on/off Northern.... I don't remember the specifics though.....

 

35th & 36th are both one-way westbound for the short block off Northern (35th Avenue east of 43rd Street and 36th Avenue east of 41st Street).

 

So eastbound buses have to take 35th-42nd-Northern. Not sure what was preventing them from just having buses take 36th-Steinway-Northern, but whatever. (Well, either that, or maybe it really was about the Ravenswood Houses).

[B35 via Church]

35th & 36th are both one-way westbound for the short block off Northern (35th Avenue east of 43rd Street and 36th Avenue east of 41st Street).

 

So eastbound buses have to take 35th-42nd-Northern. Not sure what was preventing them from just having buses take 36th-Steinway-Northern, but whatever. (Well, either that, or maybe it really was about the Ravenswood Houses).

Yes, but that wasn't always the case.... That rule/change was made sometime in the early-mid 2000's....

[NewFlyer 230]

IIRC, it had something to do with turning on/off Northern.... I don't remember the specifics though.....

 

Even though 36th is more commercial, 35th is more free-flowing....

(TBH, to me, this is moot b/c AFAIC, the Q66 shouldn't even be running anywhere near 21st, let alone to QBP)

 

The QBP bound Q66 runs for too long a stretch where buses are approaching, or are literally empty.....

Either have all trips running b/w 51st & Flushing, or divert it down 48th w/ the 104 & call it a day.....

That part of the Q66 was at one point separate from the current Q66. The Q66 got extended to replace that route. Idk what that route was called but I know it ran from Queensboro Plaza to somewhere in Woodside. The Q66 is not always empty going to Queensboro plaza. I remember seeing a decent amount of people riding past. In my opinion they should make the last stop that part where the Q66 diverts off Northern or even the and 36th Ave station. The Q66 was probably extended to 21st Queensbridge to serve that station and then they just decided to have it turn around with the other buses later on Queens Blvd.

[IAlam]

Here's an idea re-route all Q20B buses to the Kew gardens Sta via Union Turnpike Q20A unaffected 

[Union Tpke]

I would use the old Q74 route for this.

 

Here's an idea re-route all Q20B buses to the Kew gardens Sta via Union Turnpike Q20A unaffected 

[NewFlyer 230]

Here's an idea re-route all Q20B buses to the Kew gardens Sta via Union Turnpike Q20A unaffected

So in other words you want a Q20B that runs from College Point via 14 Ave and Kew Gardens Queens Blvd station?

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

Here's an idea re-route all Q20B buses to the Kew gardens Sta via Union Turnpike Q20A unaffected 

What would this accomplish except acting as a short-turn for the Q20A or 44?

[Lordsaitamaboss]

What would this accomplish except acting as a short-turn for the Q20A or 44?

It would improve reliability of the Q20 local service allowing the MTA to run more buses with the same equipment as in a frequency boost on it's essential portion while dropping the redundant archer ave segment avoiding that area people would have to use the   for connections to other buses but then you have a point as main street can get screwed south of main street.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Well, since this thread is active now, I might as well propose something I had in mind for a while (QM15/QM17)

 

Proposal 1: 

 

The Rockaways currently lacks an daily express bus to/from Manhattan. Howard Beach residents have to go up to Lindenwood, and I feel there might demand from Arverne, which could rise. Under this proposal, this is what would happen:

 

To Manhattan: The current 5:40 AM QM15 from Lindenwood would instead originate at Arverne at around 5:25 AM. Additionally, all buses towards Manhattan coming from the depot would originate in Arverne instead of Lindenwood. 

 

To Queens: All buses before 3:30 PM going to the depot after making their Queens-bound run would be extended to Arverne. The current 6 PM bus to Manhattan DH's to the depot I believe once in Manhattan. I would either turn it into a QM17 or a QM15 trip to Arverne, departing at 7:40 PM (if it was a QM17) or 7:45 PM (if it was a QM15), whichever would be more beneficial. All evening buses past the 8:15 PM trip on the QM15 would run to Arverne. Additionally, the 7:15 PM QM15 trip would be pushed back to depart 34 Street at 7:20 PM.

 

With the exception of the extra QM15/QM17 trip in the shoulder, there would be no added costs for the trips, since they are currently accounted as DH time. It would change to revenue time, and the more revenues gained (the purpose to encourage usage of the express bus outside of the rush hour, which they do not have). Estimated extra cost for the extra trip is around $80,000 annually.

 

Proposal 2:

 

Everything mentioned, in addition to all QM15 Saturday service originating from Arverne. They would depart Arverne at :45, from 6:45 AM to 5:45 PM. All buses have a 60+ minute layover after their first trip once at Lindenwood, before going back to Manhattan. The extra 30 minutes would still allow more than 30 minutes for a driver break (the least amount of time would be 40 minutes for a driver break at Arverne). No extra buses would be needed, since 4 buses are currently used on the QM15 (with the 4th run using a relief after the second trip is done or something close to that IIRC. Estimated extra cost is $18,000 per year, in addition to the $80,000 on weekdays, for an approximate extra $98,000 per year.

[IAlam]

So in other words you want a Q20B that runs from College Point via 14 Ave and Kew Gardens Queens Blvd station?

 

 

What would this accomplish except acting as a short-turn for the Q20A or 44?

 

 

It would improve reliability of the Q20 local service allowing the MTA to run more buses with the same equipment as in a frequency boost on it's essential portion while dropping the redundant archer ave segment avoiding that area people would have to use the   for connections to other buses but then you have a point as main street can get screwed south of main street.

Reliability (could save 3 to 4 buses), adds a subway connection, makes up for the Q74 which was eliminated but since the Q20B also hits Flushing, it shouldn't have as much ridership problems as the Q74, also Q20 ridership below Union is fairly light the Q20A and Q44 can handle the lost of the Q20B with little effect.

Edited February 5, 2016 by IAlam

[Union Tpke]

Reliability (could save 3 to 4 buses), adds a subway connection, makes up for the Q74 which was eliminated but since the Q20B also hits Flushing, it shouldn't have as much ridership problems as the Q74, also Q20 ridership below Union is fairly light the Q20A and Q44 can handle the lost of the Q20B with little effect.

 

It would also give people another transfer as people wouldn't have to transfer from the subway to the Q46 to the Q44. 

I know there is the transfer at Briarwood, but it is inconvenient.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Well, since this thread is active now, I might as well propose something I had in mind for a while (QM15/QM17)

 

Proposal 1: 

 

The Rockaways currently lacks an daily express bus to/from Manhattan. Howard Beach residents have to go up to Lindenwood, and I feel there might demand from Arverne, which could rise. Under this proposal, this is what would happen:

 

To Manhattan: The current 5:40 AM QM15 from Lindenwood would instead originate at Arverne at around 5:25 AM. Additionally, all buses towards Manhattan coming from the depot would originate in Arverne instead of Lindenwood. 

 

To Queens: All buses before 3:30 PM going to the depot after making their Queens-bound run would be extended to Arverne. The current 6 PM bus to Manhattan DH's to the depot I believe once in Manhattan. I would either turn it into a QM17 or a QM15 trip to Arverne, departing at 7:40 PM (if it was a QM17) or 7:45 PM (if it was a QM15), whichever would be more beneficial. All evening buses past the 8:15 PM trip on the QM15 would run to Arverne. Additionally, the 7:15 PM QM15 trip would be pushed back to depart 34 Street at 7:20 PM.

 

With the exception of the extra QM15/QM17 trip in the shoulder, there would be no added costs for the trips, since they are currently accounted as DH time. It would change to revenue time, and the more revenues gained (the purpose to encourage usage of the express bus outside of the rush hour, which they do not have). Estimated extra cost for the extra trip is around $80,000 annually.

 

Proposal 2:

 

Everything mentioned, in addition to all QM15 Saturday service originating from Arverne. They would depart Arverne at :45, from 6:45 AM to 5:45 PM. All buses have a 60+ minute layover after their first trip once at Lindenwood, before going back to Manhattan. The extra 30 minutes would still allow more than 30 minutes for a driver break (the least amount of time would be 40 minutes for a driver break at Arverne). No extra buses would be needed, since 4 buses are currently used on the QM15 (with the 4th run using a relief after the second trip is done or something close to that IIRC. Estimated extra cost is $18,000 per year, in addition to the $80,000 on weekdays, for an approximate extra $98,000 per year.

I'm sure the folks in Howard Beach and Lindenwood would LOVE having those folks from Averne on the bus.    

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

I'm sure the folks in Howard Beach and Lindenwood would LOVE having those folks from Averne on the bus.    

And why would that be?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

And why would that be?

Sarcasm 101.... You being a QM15 rider, I'm shocked that you even propose such a thing.  Extending the QM15 to Neponsit I get but Averne?? lol

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Sarcasm 101.... You being a QM15 rider, I'm shocked that you even propose such a thing.  Extending the QM15 to Neponsit I get but Averne?? lol

Yes, I know it was sarcasm. My following response was more of a rhetorical question.

 

I don't see this as an issue tbh. If they're concerned about seating, for the most part, those buses don't even get that full, so they'll still have a good chance of getting a seat on the bus, and they wouldn't consider the QM15 to Neponsit. The area where the QM15 would operate in Arverne, Broad Channel, and Howard Beach are safe, and are mainly residential areas. The QM15 would terminate by Arverne-by-the-Sea, which is very developed, and there's many residential homes, and apartments along the way. Howard Beach riders would have the QM15 right in their neighborhood instead of heading up to 157 Avenue. The buses pass through these areas regardless, rather as a DH trip. You might as well make use of that DH trip. Furthermore, the QM17 gets more riders than the QM16, and that has always been the case, even when the QM16 was extended to Neponsit and Roxbury. I know that by Far Rockaway (on QM17's), there isn't many riders, so I'm willing to bet that most ridership in the Rockaways comes from the area west of B.60 Street.

Edited February 5, 2016 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Yes, I know it was sarcasm. My following response was more of a rhetorical question.

 

I don't see this as an issue tbh. If they're concerned about seating, for the most part, those buses don't even get that full, so they'll still have a good chance of getting a seat on the bus, and they wouldn't consider the QM15 to Neponsit. The area where the QM15 would operate in Arverne, Broad Channel, and Howard Beach are safe, and are mainly residential areas. The QM15 would terminate by Arverne-by-the-Sea, which is very developed, and there's many residential homes, and apartments along the way. Howard Beach riders would have the QM15 right in their neighborhood instead of heading up to 157 Avenue. The buses pass through these areas regardless, rather as a DH trip. You might as well make use of that DH trip. Furthermore, the QM17 gets more riders than the QM16, and that has always been the case, even when the QM16 was extended to Neponsit and Roxbury. I know that by Far Rockaway (on QM17's), there isn't many riders, so I'm willing to bet that most ridership in the Rockaways comes from the area west of B.60 Street.

Given how territorial those folks are I could see them tolerating extensions to Howard Beach, which makes sense, but at the same time, that extension would serve the heavily residential part of Howard Beach that is mainly homes so I'm not sure what such an extension would do aside from making the trips much longer.  I think it would make more sense to run some sort of QM16/QM17 hybrid on weekends if anything on hourly headways.  

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Given how territorial those folks are I could see them tolerating extensions to Howard Beach, which makes sense, but at the same time, that extension would serve the heavily residential part of Howard Beach that is mainly homes so I'm not sure what such an extension would do aside from making the trips much longer.  I think it would make more sense to run some sort of QM16/QM17 hybrid on weekends if anything on hourly headways.  

Well an extended QM15 would only operate when the QM16/QM17 is not operating. It would be much more of a benefit to have those QM15 trips over the current setup (with no off-peak service). As for a QM16/QM17 combo, I don't believe there's enough ridership to justify the creation of a service, for both legs (combined). That's why I was gearing towards having the QM15 run that, because it already exists, and would be much cheaper than a whole new service (it would run later than what the MTA would give the QM16/17 anyways for a theoretical Saturday Schedule). QM15 bus ridership during off-peak hours is decent, however I would still try to increase ridership, maximizing revenue time with as little increase in money as possible. Furthermore, Arverne is signifciantly transit dependant, and I believe there should be more direct options to Manhattan over either the Q52 to the mainland, or the at Beach 67 Street. Given an SBS/BRT on Woodhaven Blvd would slightly make commutes better, I feel that an express bus service there would be ideal. 

[NewFlyer 230]

Sarcasm 101.... You being a QM15 rider, I'm shocked that you even propose such a thing. Extending the QM15 to Neponsit I get but Averne?? lol

I feel like you are implying that the folks in Averne are poor compared to the people in Neponsit. Me personally I don't see anything wrong with the proposal. Averne is growing and developing and perhaps one day could use service. If the MTA did suggest an Averne express route QM17 might get rerouted first just to see how it would do.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Well an extended QM15 would only operate when the QM16/QM17 is not operating. It would be much more of a benefit to have those QM15 trips over the current setup (with no off-peak service). As for a QM16/QM17 combo, I don't believe there's enough ridership to justify the creation of a service, for both legs (combined). That's why I was gearing towards having the QM15 run that, because it already exists, and would be much cheaper than a whole new service (it would run later than what the MTA would give the QM16/17 anyways for a theoretical Saturday Schedule). QM15 bus ridership during off-peak hours is decent, however I would still try to increase ridership, maximizing revenue time with as little increase in money as possible. Furthermore, Arverne is signifciantly transit dependant, and I believe there should be more direct options to Manhattan over either the Q52 to the mainland, or the at Beach 67 Street. Given an SBS/BRT on Woodhaven Blvd would slightly make commutes better, I feel that an express bus service there would be ideal. 

Well the QM16/QM17 makes more sense IMO because it can serve parts of Cross Bay Blvd and Woodhaven Blvd to give that corridor more frequent service.  You always complain that the QM15 is too unreliable on weekends, and yet you propose a plan that would likely make it even more unreliable?? lol

 

I feel like you are implying that the folks in Averne are poor compared to the people in Neponsit. Me personally I don't see anything wrong with the proposal. Averne is growing and developing and perhaps one day could use service. If the MTA did suggest an Averne express route QM17 might get rerouted first just to see how it would do.

What I'm saying (from my own personal experiences of riding the QM15) is that those folks are too territorial to accept such an extension.  Not only that, but the QM15 is already unreliable enough as it is on weekends. This proposal has it trying to serve too many areas.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Via Garibaldi 8

[checkmatechamp13]

I'm sure the folks in Howard Beach and Lindenwood would LOVE having those folks from Averne on the bus.    

 

It's public transportation. Arverne-By-The-Sea is a middle-class development. If riders from there are a little too diverse for the tastes of Howard Beach & Lindenwood residents, it's not the MTA's problem.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It's public transportation. Arverne-By-The-Sea is a middle-class development. If riders from there are a little too diverse for the tastes of Howard Beach & Lindenwood residents, it's not the MTA's problem.

But I'm sure they would argue that service would become unreliable from such an extension and I would agree, given how unreliable the QM15 is on weekends, especially in the afternoon.  If Averne-By-The-Sea is so up and coming as you appear to be claiming, it should be stable enough to have the QM17 serve it on weekends, as opposed to stealing the service that Lindenwood & Howard Beach residents currently enjoy.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Well the QM16/QM17 makes more sense IMO because it can serve parts of Cross Bay Blvd and Woodhaven Blvd to give that corridor more frequent service.  You always complain that the QM15 is too unreliable on weekends, and yet you propose a plan that would likely make it even more unreliable?? lol

 

What I'm saying (from my own personal experiences of riding the QM15) is that those folks are too territorial to accept such an extension.  Not only that, but the QM15 is already unreliable enough as it is on weekends. This proposal has it trying to serve too many areas.

But the parts north have the BM5. I'd rather add more stops on the BM5 over having QM16/QM17's stop during off peak hours at certain areas (I feel that when SBS/BRT starts on Woodhaven, they would end up doing that anyways). The BM5/QM15 30 minute combined headway is good enough for Woodhaven Blvd, there's really no need for more frequent service than that. 

 

QM15 service has gotten significantly more reliable during the week, since the beginning of the year (due to the new schedule). The new schedule now requires 4 buses instead of 3 buses on weekdays (during off peak hours), since no bus loops around Manhattan and back to Queens anymore. They got rid of that starting from this pick, and gives 37-51 minutes to DH to 34 Street. This is great in the PM, because the buses are more evenly spaced from each other now, and while bunching still occurs, it doesn't happen as often. There wouldn't be any delays on the Queens side due to late buses (some trips went back up again as Midtown buses, but were already late, and by the time they got to Midtown, they were sometimes 15-20 minutes late. Buses to midtown are now more reliable during the off-peak hour.

 

Weekend service was unreliable, but the Summer pick basically solved most issues on the weekend QM15. Since they have 4 hours to go from Lindenwood and back. The only times where service will be unreliable will be whenever they do QMT work, and during Christmas time. Yes, there's still some periods in the afternoon where they run behind schedule, but it isn't by a lot.

I feel like you are implying that the folks in Averne are poor compared to the people in Neponsit. Me personally I don't see anything wrong with the proposal. Averne is growing and developing and perhaps one day could use service. If the MTA did suggest an Averne express route QM17 might get rerouted first just to see how it would do.

I would certainly also reroute the QM17 to serve Arverne-by-the-Sea, especially since there would be no stops on the current route missed (however, the stop at Rockaway Beach Blvd/ B 67 Street would have to be moved onto B 67 Street at Rockaway Beach Blvd).

But I'm sure they would argue that service would become unreliable from such an extension and I would agree, given how unreliable the QM15 is on weekends, especially in the afternoon.  If Averne-By-The-Sea is so up and coming as you appear to be claiming, it should be stable enough to have the QM17 serve it on weekends, as opposed to stealing the service that Lindenwood & Howard Beach residents currently enjoy.

There would still be 47-54 minutes for recovery at Arverne. QM15's wouldn't be so behind schedule to that point (yes, there's buses that run behind schedule, but not to that extent). Arverne is a small neighborhood, so I don't know how one neighborhood would be able to support the entire ridership base for one route. Look at the QM10 to see how that proposal would turn out (and it would be worse, since it's on the weekend). I feel that there should be service in the Rockaways. I don't see what service the Rockaways riders would be stealing, especially since they would be getting the same spans of service as everyone else (and on weekdays, only buses going to/from the depot would terminate/originate at Arverne). There isn't enough riders for a QM16/17 off peak service.

Edited February 5, 2016 by BM5 via Woodhaven