Brooklyn Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[B35 via Church]

1) But the thing is that the MTA should be trying to use its money to benefit as many passengers as possible, and provide as much a benefit for those passengers, and a rail line would do just that.

 

It's different from forcing riders onto a subway service that was much worse than the original bus commute they had (for instance, by cutting the B4 back from Sheepshead Bay, riders went from having a one-seat ride to having to take the subway to Atlantic Avenue, and then take the to the B44. Having a subway line wouldn't necessarily force bus service to be that much worse. If it makes it so a passenger can speed their trip by taking a rail line for part of their trip instead of taking a bus the whole way, then it's a benefit to both the passenger and MTA.

 

Like in SI, if (and hopefully when) they get the North Shore Rail Line up and running, they'll probably reduce service a little bit on routes up on the North Shore, but overall everybody will benefit. Bus riders might have slightly longer waits, but there will be fewer people who need to take a bus because the train can get them to their destination in less than 1/2 the time. For the remaining riders, buses may run less frequent, but they'll be less crowded, and there will be more buses available for service in other parts of the borough. So it's the same idea here.

 

2) Makes sense. I guess if you take KCC students out of the equation, demand for service to Brighton/Manhattan Beach would be roughly the same as to Sheepshead Bay, and a lot of the KCC students are just going to the subway anyway,so it makes sense to have a more even ratio.

 

1) Nice straw man argument....

 

If this was a general discussion on how to make public transportation better in this city, then I would address that part of the post.... Since we are specifically talking about one particular mode (i.e., the bus), I'm not going to engage in any direct discussion of an entirely separate mode of travel......

 

This isn't necessarily directed at you, but Why would anyone truly concerned about the declination of bus service bring up a new subway line as some sort of remedy to anything...... To me, that's nothin more than sayin "f*** the bus, as the train is more beneficial".... Quite frankly, it's that type of attitude about buses that peeves me more than anything.....

 

Maybe it's just me & Threxx that thinks bringing up a subway line in a bus discussion thread isn't no where near relevant regarding the topic at hand.....

 

 

2) Yep, you get the idea.

Edited April 14, 2012 by B35 via Church

[qjtransitmaster]

even if the b74 only stays on neptune till sheepshead bay for the train

[qjtransitmaster]

cause a new subway line would bring in a major regional form of transit that would directly turn surrounding bus lines into FEEDERS which could BOOST bus ridership via new transfer senarios that are created that even give some bus lines new purposes and can even save some lines from getting axed. think about the routing of the triborough well then look at surrounding bus lines then think how would they get affected

[qjtransitmaster]

as a result intermodal terminals bring a crapload of ppl to the buses forcing the bus system to evolve around it

[B35 via Church]

So now we're gonna have a bunch of feeders all over the place....

 

gotcha.

[Threxx]

Look, alright! No subway route pushing on this thread. Anymore of this, and I'll ask a mod to close this thread.

[Shortline Bus]

Wow. For a 'kid' in middle or high school you sound like a future mod lol. Seriously let us the professionals worry about ending a thread or not.

[N6 Limited]

Do you think NYC should rearrange the bus system to be like a grid(or as close to a grid as possible), as it is in other cities? Or should they study ridership origin and destination patterns and rearrange the routes accordingly?

Edited April 14, 2012 by N6 Limited

[BrooklynBus]

I think the basic system should be a grid, but there has to be exceptions where warranted. The advantages of a perfect grid is that you could get anywhere with two buses. The disadvantage is that many trips that currently require one bus would require two. So you need some rational sort of combination. There are just too many O's and D's in a borough to base a route system solely by origin and destination.

 

Look at what happened in Denver in the late 70s. They had a complex bus system that was working. Then they hired John Simpson to head the system. (He was from New York City.) Not knowing a thing about Denver or its transit system, he took out a pencil and paper and redesigned the bus system getting rid of all complexities and drawing a perfect grid. The bus map was so much clearer and easier to understand. Everyone thought he did a perfect job. New York City immediately hired him around 1980 to head the New York City Transit Authority, thinking he could take out unnecessary routing complexities here also and make the system better. Then six months later ridership data from Denver came back and it turned out that the changes he made there was a dismal failure because bus ridership dropped sharply. When people were asked why they stopped using buses, they responded that although the system wasn't perfect, the buses generally got them to where they want to go. Now they had to walk a mlie to get to that new simpler, straighter, and quicker route so they took their car instead.

 

The lesson to be learned is that you have to understand people's needs and habits, not that a grid system is inherently bad. You can't make good plans by simply looking at a map as John Simpson tried to do.

 

 

[Shortline Bus]

Well said. Every large and small mass transit (i.e local bus and light rail/subway)is different with different riders, travel patterns, etc. So we have to keep that in mind.

 

I think the basic system should be a grid, but there has to be exceptions where warranted. The advantages of a perfect grid is that you could get anywhere with two buses. The disadvantage is that many trips that currently require one bus would require two. So you need some rational sort of combination. There are just too many O's and D's in a borough to base a route system solely by origin and destination.

 

Look at what happened in Denver in the late 70s. They had a complex bus system that was working. Then they hired John Simpson to head the system. (He was from New York City.) Not knowing a thing about Denver or its transit system, he took out a pencil and paper and redesigned the bus system getting rid of all complexities and drawing a perfect grid. The bus map was so much clearer and easier to understand. Everyone thought he did a perfect job. New York City immediately hired him around 1980 to head the New York City Transit Authority, thinking he could take out unnecessary routing complexities here also and make the system better. Then six months later ridership data from Denver came back and it turned out that the changes he made there was a dismal failure because bus ridership dropped sharply. When people were asked why they stopped using buses, they responded that although the system wasn't perfect, the buses generally got them to where they want to go. Now they had to walk a mlie to get to that new simpler, straighter, and quicker route so they took their car instead.

 

The lesson to be learned is that you have to understand people's needs and habits, not that a grid system is inherently bad. You can't make good plans by simply looking at a map as John Simpson tried to do.

 

[B35 via Church]

Grids represent the ideal model of how one might go about structuring a network (large-scale, that is), b/c it's the most feasible..... Personally, I tend to favor modified grids - As opting to structure a network that way, better addresses what/where riders in a certain community are generally heading to (along such a route).... Modified grids are more involved than constructing a regular grid, but if you ask me, you can attempt to benefit more riders (in general) this way..... But in any case, you have to have some inkling of where the riders are heading (and/or what they want/need to begin with)..... I'm talking about the collective, of course....

 

^^ You could make life easier by adding in a couple feeders as well, if you can't nail every nook & cranny w/ creating modified grid routed.... But to base a whole city's network off feeders - Or to actually suggest that current bus lines that aren't as such, be turned into feeder "rte's" wouldn't be the way to go, if we're talking about providing bus service for a large city.... You'll have some longer distanced routes, more "intermediate" routes, and some shorter distanced routes to optimize the network.....

---------

 

For smaller-scale networks, I'd either use the hub & spoke network structure or a point-to-point structure setup (if we're talking about a real small city, or a city whose main points of interest are widespread)...... but that's a whole nother ballgame....

 

 

So to directly opinionate to this post....

 

Do you think NYC should rearrange the bus system to be like a grid(or as close to a grid as possible), as it is in other cities? Or should they study ridership origin and destination patterns and rearrange the routes accordingly?

The latter.... The more some bus system doesn't benefit the patrons of multiple areas within a city, the more useless that bus system becomes..... But that isn't to say every major destination should classify as being a terminal for every bus route in a network...... You can have some routes pass through one major destination, to possibly serve some other(s).....

[BrooklynBus]

It really warms my heart to see so any people realize how deficient the Brooklyn bus system is and to see so many ideas on how to fix the problems. When i created my website in 2003, that was exactly what i was hoping, to get a discussion going When I get a chance and get in the mood I should study everyones ideas and see what I should change from my original plan. I will do that when I can figure out how to use Inkscape. The old way I was doing it using PowerPoint is just to difficult to make major changes.

 

It's just so difficult for me to get motivated again after doing this for 40 years and still seeing how the MTA denies there are any problems. Hopefully one day there will be some major restructuring. I hope I live to see it in my lifetime. If not maybe one of you will a my dreams come true someday.

[BrooklynBus]

Grids represent the ideal model of how one might go about structuring a network (large-scale, that is), b/c it's the most feasible..... Personally, I tend to favor modified grids -...

 

 

For large cities such as NY where the streets are based on a grid system I agree that a modified grid system is the best because it reduces the need to double back when transfering. That's why I believe the B49 should continue straight on Ocean rather than divert to Rogers. People make the mistake of thinking that there is something holy about the current system when in reality it just developed one route at a time and was never planned, much like the way the skyscrapers were built. No one ever sat down to determine where they would be built.

 

In theory, where a street or corridor is very long, I would run overlapping routes or services instead of having one route ten miles long or longer. If a north south street does not go to the end of the borough I would have it terminate at another north south route so someone can change to go further. I would use the same methodology for east west routes. That was why I was against eliminating the B40 without extending the B45 or B65 because if you are traveling east, there is no route to transfer to to travel further eastward.

 

During rush hours or from 6AM to 9 PM, I would have supplementary L shaped routes where needed. I would try to avoid U shaped routes. At night I would have a separate netwoirk where alternate routes operate, so instead of a route every half mile, at night they would be spaced every mile. That way you could operate service at 30 minute headways on every route at the same cost of 60 minute headways on every route. I dislike routes that are just feeders because they are usually empty outside of rush hours. Either extend them, like the B2, or have them operate rush hours only.

[checkmatechamp13]

Look at what happened in Denver in the late 70s. They had a complex bus system that was working. Then they hired John Simpson to head the system. (He was from New York City.) Not knowing a thing about Denver or its transit system, he took out a pencil and paper and redesigned the bus system getting rid of all complexities and drawing a perfect grid. The bus map was so much clearer and easier to understand. Everyone thought he did a perfect job. New York City immediately hired him around 1980 to head the New York City Transit Authority, thinking he could take out unnecessary routing complexities here also and make the system better. Then six months later ridership data from Denver came back and it turned out that the changes he made there was a dismal failure because bus ridership dropped sharply. When people were asked why they stopped using buses, they responded that although the system wasn't perfect, the buses generally got them to where they want to go. Now they had to walk a mlie to get to that new simpler, straighter, and quicker route so they took their car instead.

 

The lesson to be learned is that you have to understand people's needs and habits, not that a grid system is inherently bad. You can't make good plans by simply looking at a map as John Simpson tried to do.

 

 

It also depends on the frequency of the routes. The more frequent the routes are, the easier it is to transfer between them. In Denver, I assume that since it's less dense, overall the routes run less frequently than in NYC, and so you could regularly end up with 15-20 minute waits for a transfer.

 

Personally, I agree that, in general, a modified grid works best.

Edited April 14, 2012 by checkmatechamp13

[qjtransitmaster]

most of my ideas when combined create a converged modified grid that covers a large area. My nyc ones are a hybrid of bus routes arranged to complete the subway network into a grid sometimes I look at rail lines and subways to determine how bus lines can link to create a regional grid network. sometimes making interborough highway lines yo link major hubs to create a grid while fixing gaps in subway coverage and having buses follow traffic patterns to setip to increase ridership when gas pushes ppl to look for alternatives then satisfaction keeps em

[B35 via Church]

I didn't think anyone would agree that a modified grid network works best for a large scale bus system....

 

To kinda touch on the point Checkmate made.... I think it was JAzumah a while back, that said something to the tune of, grid systems generally don't work if the routes within em run on 30 min. headways or greater..... I would have to concur.....

 

To be honest, drawing up a grid just seems lazy to me; as if the people's destinations don't matter near as much (or at all)... i.e., here's your bus system - you have routes that run east-west & those that run north-south... That's it. Deal with it.

BrooklynBus' mention of Denver's bus system during the 70's is a very good example of what I'm driving at with that.....

 

To give somewhat of an analogy... it's like attempting to teach a class (or even parent) out of a handbook, as opposed in getting to know (or in the case of parenting, nurturing & loving) the youth you're dealing with..... Don't know about you guys, but I hated textbook teachers - I usually knew more than them at the subject they were teaching, and hardly ever felt like I was truly learning anything..... Not to come off as a pompous ass, but there were many times I would correct a teacher in high school during a lecture/session.....

 

I'll go as far as to say, any idiot can swoop through & draw a grid.... However, Someone that's not in the know (or as much in the know) cannot attempt to draw a modified grid.... Which is what makes it easier to opinionate in giving a yay or nay on ppl's ideas, especially the Brooklyn based ones..... I don't have the resume that BrooklynBus has, but I've been casually riding these routes ever since the mid 90's, onwards.... I think I would have a heart attack if some higher power were to come down & notify me of the summation of money I spent on fanning in Brooklyn alone for the past 2 decades (almost)...... not counting the other boroughs & other counties I've ventured into..... Some can call it corny, I honestly don't care - No one can shame me by calling me a busfanner (one fool that no longer posts on this forum already tried), because it's a lot I've learned about the cities I've fanned in, simply by doing so.....

 

real world experience > textbook/word-of-mouth information.....

 

More to the point though, I dread to see what Brooklyn's bus network would look like if it were to be based off a perfect grid for the entire borough...... To give some examples, the B6's, B103's, and B61's of the world would not exist....

 

 

People make the mistake of thinking that there is something holy about the current system

True enough.... and these are generally the same people that the MTA can do no wrong...

 

I mean, there is always room for growth.... this borough is becoming overcrowded enough as it is, and it's only gonna get worse over time... Tourism (and the networking b/w those of like countries/nationalities) plays a role in it too.... To give an example, I'm often amazed at how much territory Asians encompassed up in the NE part of Queens..... And those bus routes that run in that area of the borough are by no means shunned, or solely/mainly used during peak times.....

 

Basic point is, routes can become antiquated & it's always best to stay on the ball as far as modernizing them......

 

 

I dislike routes that are just feeders because they are usually empty outside of rush hours.

 

I don't like basing a bus system off just feeders if we're talking about some large city..... One reason is because of what you mentioned about is subpar usage during off peak times.... Also, forget about latent ridership; the room for growth becomes minimized/marginalized..... I mean, they have their place in a network, but to use em as THE basis for a network..... Nah.

 

 

When i created my website in 2003, that was exactly what i was hoping, to get a discussion going

Well I gotta say Mission Accomplished..... and talks will prolong, as long as there are enough people that see & point out the flaws (and extrapolate & even make a real push to rectify 'em).... on top of those whose literal commutes have been exacerbated by the further marring of the system/network.....

 

Of course this concept shouldn't only reign true for Brooklyn.... which is why I can respect what Mr. Bounad Hahnic is attempting to do in his community.....

 

 

I hath spoken......

Edited April 15, 2012 by B35 via Church

[qjtransitmaster]

I was kinda shocked by bound hispanic in a sense cause his post came literally one day after I thought QM20 should be a downtown branch of QM2 full time so he proved one of my hunches correct. However B35 I will say that I agree mostly with that last post to tell the truth you basically summed up how I come up with route change ideas in a nutshell. I also used several systems accross the region and sometimes in other states. I also talk to non users to get a feel for why they don't use OR in a sense are completely unable to use a transit network so I get a feel for what is wrong

 

I was kinda shocked by bound hispanic in a sense cause his post came literally one day after I thought QM20 should be a downtown branch of QM2 full time so he proved one of my hunches correct. However B35 I will say that I agree mostly with that last post to tell the truth you basically summed up how I come up with route change ideas in a nutshell. I also used several systems accross the region and sometimes in other states. I also talk to non users to get a feel for why they don't use OR in a sense are completely unable to use a transit network so I get a feel for what is wrong

[Threxx]

1. Feeders everywhere: No.

 

2. Grids are SIMPLE, but they don't accomplish a purpose. They require people to make 4-5 transfers instead of making 0-2.

Edited April 15, 2012 by ThrexxBus

[Future ENY OP]

What about the frequent (and illogical) GO's on the , , and (B)/ ? Sunday service on the express routes will help the riders get "un-screwed" by these GO's.

 

On another note, the area of most concern in some places is Brooklyn's N-S routes. Here are my ideas on this front: (from the Google doc.)

 

 

North-South Routes in Central Brooklyn

 

B40: Greenpoint, Metro Avenue or Williamsburg Bridge Plaza

Midwood, Flatbush Avenue/Brookyn College (The Junction)

Via New York, Marcy and Nostrand Avenue.

(NEW)

 

B42: Rockaway Parkway,

Canarsie Pier & Seaview Village

Via Rockaway Parkway & Seaview Av.

(Don't ask why this is here.)

 

B44: (LOCAL SERVICE REROUTED TO ROGERS AVENUE)

Williamsburg Bridge Plaza

Sheepshead Bay, Knapp St

Via Nostrand, Rogers, and Bedford Avenue.

(+SBS)

 

B46: Current route.

(+SBS)

 

B47: Some buses are rerouted onto Kings Hwy between Avenue D & Howard Avenue weekdays. Other buses operate on Ralph Aveune. Other times, all buses use Ralph Avenue.

 

B49: Bed-Stuy, Fulton St

Sheepshead Bay, Knapp St

Via Bedford Avenue.

 

B50: Williamsburg Bridge Plaza

Manhattan Beach, Kingsboro CC.

Via Washington & Ocean Avenues.

(NEW, LTD)

 

 

Your B44 idea will actually happen via +SBS+.

I really don't foreseeing the B49 being swapped for the current B44 routing, HOWEVER, B49 service will go down Foster to New York Ave to supplement the B44 via New York.

 

B42: LEAVE AS IS! No changes, No extensions needed.

 

B47: LEAVE AS IS! What needs changing here is WEEKDAY short terminal at Rutland Road Train Station, and significant increased headways. You CANNOT have buses coming 3 at a time, and there's a 20 min wait going E/W bound.

 

Your B50 idea MAY not go too well. At least in my opinion.. What needs to be worked on with the B49 is INCREASED HEADWAYS and buses terminating at Sheepshead Bay Station (B)/ station & KCC during the day, along with an ALL DAY LIMITED SERVICE from 7AM-9PM Monday-Friday with the current stops on the B49. No need to extend to the Williamsburg Bridge.

Edited April 15, 2012 by Future ENY OP

[Threxx]

Your B44 idea will actually happen via +SBS+.

I really don't foreseeing the B49 being swapped for the current B44 routing, HOWEVER, B49 service will go down Foster to New York Ave to supplement the B44 via New York.

 

B42: LEAVE AS IS! No changes, No extensions needed.

 

B47: LEAVE AS IS! What needs changing here is WEEKDAY short terminal at Rutland Road Train Station, and significant increased headways. You CANNOT have buses coming 3 at a time, and there's a 20 min wait going E/W bound.

 

Your B50 idea MAY not go too well. At least in my opinion.. What needs to be worked on with the B49 is INCREASED HEADWAYS and buses terminating at Sheepshead Bay Station (B)/ station & KCC during the day, along with an ALL DAY LIMITED SERVICE from 7AM-9PM Monday-Friday with the current stops on the B49. No need to extend to the Williamsburg Bridge.

 

 

The B49 needs to be split. The B50 is filling the gap that will open when the B49 is moved to Bedford south of Foster Avenue.

 

B42: That may go...

 

B47: If you read the rest of my plan, you would know that i'm taking the B7 off of Kings Hwy. The B47 has to be split. (If you say to leave as is, why are you suggesting changes?)

 

The B40 is there to replace service on NY Avenue. Noticed you had nothing to say on that....

[Interested Rider]

I think the basic system should be a grid, but there has to be exceptions where warranted. The advantages of a perfect grid is that you could get anywhere with two buses. The disadvantage is that many trips that currently require one bus would require two. So you need some rational sort of combination. There are just too many O's and D's in a borough to base a route system solely by origin and destination.

 

Look at what happened in Denver in the late 70s. They had a complex bus system that was working. Then they hired John Simpson to head the system. (He was from New York City.) Not knowing a thing about Denver or its transit system, he took out a pencil and paper and redesigned the bus system getting rid of all complexities and drawing a perfect grid. The bus map was so much clearer and easier to understand. Everyone thought he did a perfect job. New York City immediately hired him around 1980 to head the New York City Transit Authority, thinking he could take out unnecessary routing complexities here also and make the system better. Then six months later ridership data from Denver came back and it turned out that the changes he made there was a dismal failure because bus ridership dropped sharply. When people were asked why they stopped using buses, they responded that although the system wasn't perfect, the buses generally got them to where they want to go. Now they had to walk a mlie to get to that new simpler, straighter, and quicker route so they took their car instead.

 

The lesson to be learned is that you have to understand people's needs and habits, not that a grid system is inherently bad. You can't make good plans by simply looking at a map as John Simpson tried to do.

 

 

I have to agree with Brooklyn Bus as it has to be a coalition of bus riders, bus drivers (yes! the dedicated staff that drives the buses must have a say in the change of bus routes), dispatchers, business owners and other interested parties such as members of this forum. The present MTA structure not only discourages public involvement but the command structure is totally insulated from public scrutiny. It is a political bureaucracy that determines its own routes. Its finances are determined by forces in Albany and City Hall as that is how it was created and nurtured. Remember Robert Moses, the first of the transportation czars who was not directly involved with the Board of Transportation when it was created in 1940, His impact upon the agency cannot be underestimated even in today's world.

 

I think that many of the ideas presented in this thread are very good and the give and take is great, Most of us do not have degrees in City Planning but we are quite knowledgeable in how our communities have evolved. We are quite aware of the institutions in our communities and how much bus service is needed to provide this service. I, however, am quite pessimistic that any change will be done and many of us (myself) are not part (or will ever be part) of the MTA inner circle where it could be done.

[qjtransitmaster]

inner circle ehh hmm ok looks like I should ask some of my linkedin friends for assistance

[checkmatechamp13]

inner circle ehh hmm ok looks like I should ask some of my linkedin friends for assistance

 

 

None of them would happen to work for the MTA, would they? Because I've been stuck trying to get a couple of ideas for SI passed.

[qjtransitmaster]

hehe there is plenty you do NOT KNOW about me some of em ARE PLANNERS one is steve kressler

[MHV9218]

hehe there is plenty you do NOT KNOW about me some of em ARE PLANNERS one is steve kressler

 

I can name drop too! So can a lot of people on this forum!

 

We don't.