kingal11234 Posted November 21, 2012 Share #1 Posted November 21, 2012 I heard that there was a plan to extend the L train to Bay Ridge using the former LIRR Branch. Im trying to find out more information about this. Could this be done? What are the pros and cons of doing this? What do you guys think about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Up Front Posted November 21, 2012 Share #2 Posted November 21, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itmaybeokay Posted November 21, 2012 Share #3 Posted November 21, 2012 I heard that there was a plan to extend the L train to Bay Ridge using the former LIRR Branch. Im trying to find out more information about this. Could this be done? What are the pros and cons of doing this? What do you guys think about it? I think what you're referencing here is the Canarsie line's track connection to the LIRR Bay Ridge branch, that was later removed. This was mostly for delivering equipment and not for passenger trains. As far as I know the only somewhat serious proposal to repurpose the bay ridge branch for revenue service is the Triboro RX idea, which has gotten a surprising amount of support but will probably never be built. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_Ridge_Branch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Railfan Posted November 21, 2012 Share #4 Posted November 21, 2012 I heard that there was a plan to extend the L train to Bay Ridge using the former LIRR Branch. Im trying to find out more information about this. Could this be done? What are the pros and cons of doing this? What do you guys think about it? What's going to serve canarsie then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamen Rider Posted November 21, 2012 Share #5 Posted November 21, 2012 I heard that there was a plan to extend the L train to Bay Ridge using the former LIRR Branch. Im trying to find out more information about this. Could this be done? What are the pros and cons of doing this? What do you guys think about it? lets start with illegal and work from there, shall we... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted November 21, 2012 Share #6 Posted November 21, 2012 It could not be done. The fact that freight trains are operating on it and part of the route is single track doesn't allow for the train to go there. Only thing that could work is that the LIRR sends passenger trains down there like in the past but then again, there are freight trains operating there and LIRR probably doesn't want that to interfere (we have AMTRAK and VRE for that lol). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realizm Posted November 21, 2012 Share #7 Posted November 21, 2012 Plus the fact that ridership demands currently does not merit an overhaul of the Bay Ridge Branch for rapid transit. I don't think there ever will be a need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T to Dyre Avenue Posted November 21, 2012 Share #8 Posted November 21, 2012 It could not be done. The fact that freight trains are operating on it and part of the route is single track doesn't allow for the train to go there. Only thing that could work is that the LIRR sends passenger trains down there like in the past but then again, there are freight trains operating there and LIRR probably doesn't want that to interfere (we have AMTRAK and VRE for that lol). VRE? Virginia Railway Express? The closest their commuter trains get to Bay Ridge is Washington, DC's Union Station. I doubt VRE has any interest in extending their Fredericksburg or Manassas Line trains an extra 140+ miles to Brooklyn, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itmaybeokay Posted November 21, 2012 Share #9 Posted November 21, 2012 I mean for what it's worth, the RX plan (which isn't extending the L to bay ridge, mind you) talks about using the right of way that exists for the branch to build a new transit line, not sharing trackage. Number one you can't connect NYCT to LIRR lest ye retrofit all of the subway cars to be FRA compliant. It's waived from federal guidelines right now because it doesn't connect to anything or go interstate. (Yet another reason why the to Jersey is a pipe dream). The plan calls for the right of way to be used to build an at grade and elevated line next to or over the existing freight trackage. It would go from bay ridge up the fremont secondary into queens, over the hell gate bridge (before you ask, yes there is an unused trackway, but yes there is only one) into the bronx. While the current patterns suggest ridership would be low, the transit system has shaped how the city has grown over the last century, not the other way around. This was part of a long term plan, and honestly could drastically change the city. Even though some politicians like Scott Stringer have praised it - It will probably never get built. Maybe they'll start planning it when the SAS reaches lower manhattan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M31clinton Posted November 21, 2012 Share #10 Posted November 21, 2012 What's going to serve canarsie then? Did you even read the content of the first message in the thread? It said "extended to Bay Ridge", nothing about L no longer serving Canarsie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted November 21, 2012 Share #11 Posted November 21, 2012 Did you even read the content of the first message in the thread? It said "extended to Bay Ridge", nothing about L no longer serving Canarsie. Do you even know the area? That ROW splits away from the just north of New Lots Av, so if you do (hypothetically) extend the line on that ROW, you have nothing serving the New Lots, East 105, and Canarsie stations. ...thats what he's talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowblock Posted November 21, 2012 Share #12 Posted November 21, 2012 Eh, just extend the B42 a couple more stops. That bus replaced the original extension anyway...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted November 21, 2012 Share #13 Posted November 21, 2012 I think what you're referencing here is the Canarsie line's track connection to the LIRR Bay Ridge branch, that was later removed. This was mostly for delivering equipment and not for passenger trains. As far as I know the only somewhat serious proposal to repurpose the bay ridge branch for revenue service is the Triboro RX idea, which has gotten a surprising amount of support but will probably never be built. http://en.wikipedia....ay_Ridge_Branch I wouldn't be too sure if it gets more support it actually may happen. When MTA gets it's finances in order that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Vandelay Posted November 21, 2012 Share #14 Posted November 21, 2012 It was certainly considered. No plans for it to actually go to Bay Ridge however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted November 21, 2012 Share #15 Posted November 21, 2012 It was certainly considered. No plans for it to actually go to Bay Ridge however. HUH you serious? where was this info? Your talking about triboro RX? In my opinion it's incomplete. It should include merging with SIR but that is my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted November 21, 2012 Share #16 Posted November 21, 2012 VRE? Virginia Railway Express? The closest their commuter trains get to Bay Ridge is Washington, DC's Union Station. I doubt VRE has any interest in extending their Fredericksburg or Manassas Line trains an extra 140+ miles to Brooklyn, lol. What the hell? I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about VRE as an example of a commuter railroad who *doesn't* care about their trains being stuck/delayed behind freight trains and how LIRR doesn't want their trains to be stuck/delayed by that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted November 21, 2012 Share #17 Posted November 21, 2012 What the hell? I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about VRE as an example of a commuter railroad who *doesn't* care about their trains being stuck/delayed behind freight trains and how LIRR doesn't want their trains to be stuck/delayed by that. He didn't get the joke it happens to me all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CenSin Posted November 22, 2012 Share #18 Posted November 22, 2012 Some facts probably need to be reposted so the rest of the discussion can proceed intelligently: The real potential of the line isn't to connect Bay Ridge to Canarsie, but from Bay Ridge to the Bronx (known as the Triboro RX) or even from Staten Island where interborough subway service currently doesn't exist. I believe that was the idea put forth by the Regional Planning Association (RPA) and the idea you're referring to. It's said that the line could provide transfers to every single branch in the system from to and to (except ) and would be the second line to not touch Manhattan (the other being the Crosstown line). For the Canarsie line, the RPA had suggestions to split the Canarsie line right before the terminal to serve Starrett City (which is to the east of the Canarsie line, while the Bay Ridge branch is to the west). A subway using the Bay Ridge branch will obviously not run on railroad tracks. The Bay Ridge branch has room for at least 2 tracks, 4 in most segments, and 4 (maybe even 6) along the entire length with dirt and trees moved out of the way. Take a look outside when on the Sea Beach line. Getting subway track laid isn't the issue so forget about the subway interfering with freight. If built, it will likely have some sort of track connection to the Canarsie line. It makes sense that two parallel right-of-ways that are part of the same system would have such connections. That line would need a yard and a way to get trains to and from the rest of the subway system anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trainmaster5 Posted November 22, 2012 Share #19 Posted November 22, 2012 I mean for what it's worth, the RX plan (which isn't extending the L to bay ridge, mind you) talks about using the right of way that exists for the branch to build a new transit line, not sharing trackage. Number one you can't connect NYCT to LIRR lest ye retrofit all of the subway cars to be FRA compliant. It's waived from federal guidelines right now because it doesn't connect to anything or go interstate. (Yet another reason why the to Jersey is a pipe dream). The plan calls for the right of way to be used to build an at grade and elevated line next to or over the existing freight trackage. It would go from bay ridge up the fremont secondary into queens, over the hell gate bridge (before you ask, yes there is an unused trackway, but yes there is only one) into the bronx. While the current patterns suggest ridership would be low, the transit system has shaped how the city has grown over the last century, not the other way around. This was part of a long term plan, and honestly could drastically change the city. Even though some politicians like Scott Stringer have praised it - It will probably never get built. Maybe they'll start planning it when the SAS reaches lower manhattan I've seen plans plans for the use of the existing ROW dating back to the Governor Rockefeller era and the inception of the MTA itself so I'd love to see how we on the forum can overcome a major roadblock in most plans. The Bay Ridge branch of the LIRR is now used for freight interchange by the NYAR between Brooklyn and points east and north. One option would be for the MTA to give up it's freight interchange agreement with NYA railroad by paying them money to terminate the deal. The problem with this idea is that money has been spent and other money is in the pipeline today for improvements on the branch at the Brooklyn waterfront end of the line. As you and others have pointed out subways and freight rail can't co-exist legally so one or the other must go in any scenario I can see. That isn't the major roadblock to the RX plan IMO. Simply put, as long as the branch is also being used for freight there is no way physically for the triborough plan to be built even if the freight and subway ROWs could be separated in some way. Perhaps my Brownsville and Bushwick compadres can explain it better than I can but here we go. The roadblock I am speaking of lies below the Atlantic Ave L station and below the LIRR Atlantic Branch East New York station. It's the Bay Ridge branch East New York station It's supports underpin Atlantic Ave, The LIRR Atlantic Branch, and the overpass built over that station, and the East New York Avenue underpass built between the two LIRR stations. AFAIK the only way to reach the Hell Gate trackage and points in between there and the Bay Ridge branch is through the unused station. The only other possible connection I can see is in the vicinity of the Wilson Avenue L station which would be an engineering nightmare IMO. I don't mean to threadjack, mods, but I'm interested in seeing what we forum members can come up with. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BM5 via Woodhaven Posted November 22, 2012 Share #20 Posted November 22, 2012 Oh boy. Dont like the way this is going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingal11234 Posted November 22, 2012 Author Share #21 Posted November 22, 2012 lets start with illegal and work from there, shall we... huh? It could not be done. The fact that freight trains are operating on it and part of the route is single track doesn't allow for the train to go there. Only thing that could work is that the LIRR sends passenger trains down there like in the past but then again, there are freight trains operating there and LIRR probably doesn't want that to interfere (we have AMTRAK and VRE for that lol). There is space for 4 -6 tracks. The cut from Bay Ridge to Hells Gate Bridge is large. In many areas there are unused track since freight only uses one or two Plus the fact that ridership demands currently does not merit an overhaul of the Bay Ridge Branch for rapid transit. I don't think there ever will be a need. Are you serious? The Bay Ridge Branch passes through some unserved(by train) areas that have a lot of people. I live in Flatlands a area of 100,000+ people and one of the fastest growing areas in bk yet no where near transit. Have you ever waited for a bus (B6,,B46 B103) by Utica and Ave H there is usually tons of people there. Even though the B46 comes every 2 minutes and the B6 and B103 3-4 times every ten minutes they still cant compete with the numbers of people waiting,and those buses are usually always crowded. The Bay Ridge Branch passes through Utica/Kings Highway just 2 blocks north from there. trust me people here would love any train coming here. The line would also have more stops in carnarsie as well as Flatbush providing excellent connections throughout the borough. Also it would shortened the travel time for people in Mill Basin, Marine Park, Georgetown, and East Flatbush to get to the nearest station.The L to me should have more connections to others brooklyn lines. Do you even know the area? That ROW splits away from the just north of New Lots Av, so if you do (hypothetically) extend the line on that ROW, you have nothing serving the New Lots, East 105, and Canarsie stations. ...thats what he's talking about Thats true but to me this could be solved by a few options. The first option is to extend the B42 like someone mentioned. The second option is to create a shuttle to serve the two stations and connect them to the L train. The third option is to have the L split terminals like the A train does.The fourth option is similar to the third one but instead would just have two services the L and X with the L goin from 14th&8 to Rockaway pkwy and the X going from 14th&8 to Bay Ridge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted November 22, 2012 Share #22 Posted November 22, 2012 Do you even know the area? That ROW splits away from the just north of New Lots Av, so if you do (hypothetically) extend the line on that ROW, you have nothing serving the New Lots, East 105, and Canarsie stations. ...thats what he's talking about Why not? Ever heard about split service? The currently has two terminals, that could also work for the . Send one to Canarsie, then the next down Bay Ridge. Not saying that I'm actively supporting this idea but hey, if we're fantasizing about this then above plan could work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Posted November 22, 2012 Share #23 Posted November 22, 2012 Are you serious? The Bay Ridge Branch passes through some unserved(by train) areas that have a lot of people. I live in Flatlands a area of 100,000+ people and one of the fastest growing areas in bk yet no where near transit. Have you ever waited for a bus (B6,,B46 B103) by Utica and Ave H there is usually tons of people there. Even though the B46 comes every 2 minutes and the B6 and B103 3-4 times every ten minutes they still cant compete with the numbers of people waiting,and those buses are usually always crowded. The Bay Ridge Branch passes through Utica/Kings Highway just 2 blocks north from there. trust me people here would love any train coming here. The line would also have more stops in carnarsie as well as Flatbush providing excellent connections throughout the borough. Also it would shortened the travel time for people in Mill Basin, Marine Park, Georgetown, and East Flatbush to get to the nearest station.The L to me should have more connections to others brooklyn lines. I agree.... I would LOVE to see the RX operational. I would even settle for a short shuttle train from Brooklyn College to Broadway Junction--even this would alleviate so many problems for that area. Transportation is a pain in East Flatbush/Flatlands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checkmatechamp13 Posted November 22, 2012 Share #24 Posted November 22, 2012 While I agree that there should be a line along that Triboro ROW or whatever, it should definitely not be an extension of the . The whole point of the new line is to improve cross-borough and interborough travel, whereas the point of the is to connect the areas along the route to Manhattan. The line should not be changed. No extending the B42 to (what is it? Livonia Avenue) to replace it further north, no splitting the headways like they do with the , no creating a shuttle from Canarsie to Livonia Avenue, or any of that BS. The Triboro RX line is meant to be a seperate line that'll eventually (assuming it ever gets built) go up to The Bronx. If they can only build the Brooklyn segment, it should be a seperate line. There's no point in sending the to Bay Ridge because the point would be to go to Manhattan. There are already subway alternatives for most areas, except maybe Flatlands, so what's the point in extending the line and making it more delay-prone, when there's no net gain. You benefit Flatlands riders, but you screw over Canarsie riders, so what have you really accomplished? For intraborough, cross-Brooklyn travel, it would be useful, but there's no need to have the do that. You can just have a seperate line (the (X) or whatever you want to call it) cover cross-Brooklyn travel, while the focuses on bringing riders to Manhattan. Are you serious? The Bay Ridge Branch passes through some unserved(by train) areas that have a lot of people. I live in Flatlands a area of 100,000+ people and one of the fastest growing areas in bk yet no where near transit. Actually, the population in Flatlands has remained stagnant and even decreased in some parts (see here). The fastest-growing areas are more in the northern and western parts of Brooklyn. Not that it really disproves your point, because the bus routes in that area are still well-used. In fact, you can argue that part of the reason why there hasn't been much population growth is because of the lack of subway service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Concourse Posted November 22, 2012 Share #25 Posted November 22, 2012 I agree, leave the as is. I'd rather such a line be separate. The has its own problems, there's no need to add that headache to the . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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