Rebuilding South Ferry

[R42N]

Why not just extend the 1 via the loops to go to bowling green station it would be closer to south ferry? The 5 could make way by going to Atlantic ave on weekends

[Mysterious2train]

Can't happen.

 

1. Would cause huge delays.

2. If a comes down from the Bronx, and goes to Bowling Green, it would have to continue up via Lex Av, lest it reverse direction between Bowling Green and Wall St and cause even more delays.

 

It's just not feasible.

[AndrewJC]

Right now, It's a little bit inconvenient for people coming from Penn Station to reach South Ferry, before the takes you right down there, and people use that stop for more than just to go to Staten Island. Asking people to transfer at Fulton for the (4)/(5) isn't the greatest solution because that transfer is a long winded walk up and down stairs and you have to walk through the (A)/© platform, I've done it before transferred from the to an uptown that corridor is endless. Its nearly as bad as the maze of a station known as Canal St.

 

As for walking outside, do you wanna do any extra walking in this kind of weather?

 

Transferring from the 2/3 to the 4/5 (and then from Bowling Green to the ferry) leaves you walking more than just taking the 1 to Rector and walking from there.

 

I don't think an 8-minute walk is particularly onerous in this weather - it's certainly less onerous than standing still for 8 minutes waiting for a bus. But for those who really want a bus, the M5 is one block over on Broadway.

[Quill Depot]

Know your time... know when your route is coming and when it reaches it's destination. Pretty easy, aha!

[Wallyhorse]

Can't happen.

 

1. Would cause huge delays.

2. If a comes down from the Bronx, and goes to Bowling Green, it would have to continue up via Lex Av, lest it reverse direction between Bowling Green and Wall St and cause even more delays.

 

It's just not feasible.

Only way that could be done on is on evenings, weekends and overnights with a hybrid / that would run from 242nd-Rector Street as the does now, then through the loop to Bowling Green and from there to Dyre Avenue.  It could be done where the and each run in one direction as they normally do on 7th or Lexington Avenue and as the other line in the opposite direction (i.e.: runs downtown via 7th Avenue as it normally does and then uptown via the while the other way, the runs via Lexington to Bowling Green downtown and then via the to 242nd Street uptown).  This would mean the would have to run at all times to do this.

[Drag0nflamez]

 

Only way that could be done on is on evenings, weekends and overnights with a hybrid / that would run from 242nd-Rector Street as the does now, then through the loop to Bowling Green and from there to Dyre Avenue.  It could be done where the and each run in one direction as they normally do on 7th or Lexington Avenue and as the other line in the opposite direction (i.e.: runs downtown via 7th Avenue as it normally does and then uptown via the while the other way, the runs via Lexington to Bowling Green downtown and then via the to 242nd Street uptown).  This would mean the would have to run at all times to do this.

 

Would make a service too long, and now I suddenly feel like suggesting to the MTA that the South Ferry Inner Loop costs too much money and should be concreted up *evil laugh*

[lilbluefoxie]

Would make a service too long, and now I suddenly feel like suggesting to the MTA that the South Ferry Inner Loop costs too much money and should be concreted up *evil laugh*

 

The inner loop is already concreted up except for one opening, supposedly the crew lounge for the is there.

[ttcsubwayfan]

The inner loop is already concreted up except for one opening

 

Was that before or after the New South Ferry opened?

[alekr]

Maybe over this arguements for now I think the MTA is focusing heavily on the A line over the 1 line because this is the loss of one station that has neighboring stations right near it. When the A line work is completed it is possible that the workers would shift to fix SF. 3 years sounds crazy.

 

The walk from Rector to SF is not that far. There is plenty of alternatives to get through while SF is closed.

 

 

The 1 line is being brunted over and over last 10 years with loss of 2 stations south of Chambers:

 

Cortlandt St and South Ferry.

[NYCRailfan523]

As I advise again, I would suggest re-opening South Ferry but I think we should just let passengers walk from Rector to Battery Park. 

[Kendell]

Maybe over this arguements for now I think the MTA is focusing heavily on the A line over the 1 line because this is the loss of one station that has neighboring stations right near it. When the A line work is completed it is possible that the workers would shift to fix SF. 3 years sounds crazy.

 

The walk from Rector to SF is not that far. There is plenty of alternatives to get through while SF is closed.

 

 

The 1 line is being brunted over and over last 10 years with loss of 2 stations south of Chambers:

 

Cortlandt St and South Ferry.

What about 91 St?

[ttcsubwayfan]

What about 91 St?

 

. 91 St was closed in 1959, not within the last 10 years.

. He was talking about the fact that Cortlandt and South Ferry were destroyed in disasters. 91 had no such circumstance around its closure.

[Grand Concourse]

smh, is it going to kill some people to at least look up some info from google? 'nycsubway.org is your friend.'

[ttcsubwayfan]

And there's one obvious one that I missed... 91 is not south of Chambers.

[Quill Depot]

Too long a route… give the operators a break. Plus, isn't that confusing.

[King Of RedBirds]

Ugh... It worked when I was using it.  Let me check again...

---

Here is the full article for those who can't access it from the Wall Street Journal:

 

It could be three years before the South Ferry subway station at the tip of lower Manhattan, heavily damaged in superstorm Sandy, is fully restored to service, Metropolitan Transportation Authority officials now say.

Even before it launches a rebuilding effort estimated to cost $600 million, the MTA must decide whether to move some of the electronic equipment of one of its most vulnerable stations to a higher elevation, to guard against future floods.

 

Peter Foley for The Wall Street Journal

 

Damage in the South Ferry subway station as seen Thursday.

 

Thomas Prendergast, the president of the MTA's transit division, told reporters in December that it would likely be at least a year before the bidding and construction on South Ferry could be completed, but the agency now believes it will be substantially longer. Some intermittent subway service could return, however, before the station is fully finished.

South Ferry, which reopened in 2009 after a $545 million renovation and expansion, was inundated by the storm surge from the harbor on the night of the Oct. 29 storm. It filled with 14.5 million gallons of water, a depth of 80 feet from the track bed to the station's mezzanine.

MTA officials say they are hoping to put out contracts for the station's rebuilding sometime later this year. They are expecting the heavy construction work—such as replacing salt-corroded signal systems—to take another one to two years.

The MTA's rebuilding estimate includes $350 million for physical repairs to the station, where workers already have rebuilt a tile wall that was swept loose by flooding; $200 million for replacing signals; and $30 million for third-rail equipment.

 

Peter Foley for The Wall Street Journal

 

Wynton Habersham, the MTA's chief electrical officer, below, inspects damage inside the station.

 

The water has been pumped out of South Ferry, but on Thursday afternoon evidence of the flooding was everywhere, as Wynton Habersham, the MTA's chief electrical officer, walked the station's muck-drenched platform. He ducked into a signal-relay room at the end of the platform, which had held about 600 electromechanical relays, switch boards and circuit breakers. Almost all of them were ruined by the corrosive, brackish water that poured in from the harbor.

 

"A simple cleanup wouldn't suffice" to restore the station, which served 14,000 No. 1 train riders per day, including many coming from the Staten Island Ferry, Mr. Habersham said. The MTA will have to replace hundreds of relays and thousands of feet of wiring in the South Ferry complex alone, he said.

 

Before the agency does so, engineers will have to decide if they will try to rebuild the relay rooms on higher ground, where they will be less vulnerable to flooding. That would force the MTA to change the specifications and layout of the equipment it is replacing. "If we decide to just harden that room and make it like a submarine, which is not likely to be the case," said Mr. Habersham, his department could simply replace what has been ruined—but moving the equipment would require more planning.

 

 

Peter Foley for The Wall Street Journal

 

The South Ferry Subway Station entrance remains closed Thursday.

 

"If it's relocated to the park upstairs, then we'll do it up there," added Mr. Habersham, in a reference to Battery Park.

South Ferry was destined to be a complicated site for rebuilding. The structural concrete box of the station already sits mostly below the water table; Mr. Habersham compared it to the "bathtub" that forms the foundation of the World Trade Center. Three subway lines cross above the station's roof—the No. 4 and 5 lines and R trains toward Brooklyn, and the loop track of the old No. 1 station, which is now being used to turn No. 1 trains for the trip back uptown.

 

But the difficulties of restoring the hardware of the station also reflect a problem facing the entire subway system: the vastly diminished reliability of the parts of the system that survived. While some equipment subjected to corrosion was quickly refurbished and brought back into service, that equipment is now much more likely to fail—and to fail sooner than it might have without exposure to floodwaters.

 

Since the MTA restored service on the R train from adjoining Whitehall Street through its tunnel into Brooklyn on Dec. 21, equipment in that section of the line has failed at least once a day, including again on Thursday morning, Mr. Habersham said.

 

Corrosion has had effects both visible and hidden. In the relay room at South Ferry, a subcontractor scrubbed clean the steel pins that held the relay boxes in place. Days later, the lichen-colored corrosion spots had returned in force.

"That's why the manufacturers felt you have to just get rid of it," Mr. Habersham said. "There's not much you can do with it once it's been exposed."

 

To cope with breakdowns, the signals division has been forced to staff the Montague Tube, which carries the R train under the East River, 24 hours a day since it reopened.

 

Elsewhere, scores of workers have been reassigned to manually move track switches and realign trains in the yards that were damaged by flooding. In the process, they have been racking up overtime hours and working in dangerous conditions, MTA spokesman Adam Lisberg said.

The MTA estimates it will cost $700 million to repair signals systemwide, the largest single line item in its preliminary $5 billion damage estimate.

 

Write to Ted Mann at ted.mann@wsj.com

Send it to the Loop, up to 3 years isnt necesary, Courtland St has been closed 11 years now. 

[LTA1992]

. 91 St was closed in 1959, not within the last 10 years.

. He was talking about the fact that Cortlandt and South Ferry were destroyed in disasters. 91 had no such circumstance around its closure.

South Ferry wasn't destroyed. It was heavily damaged. There is a difference. Cortlandt Street had the displeasure of being crushed. THAT's destroyed. It has since been mostly rebuilt and will partially reopen sometime next year.

 

South Ferry was flooded and most of the damage goes to electrical equipment. Far from "Destroyed".

 

And I repeat, It will not take anywhere near 3 years to complete.

[ttcsubwayfan]

South Ferry wasn't destroyed. It was heavily damaged. There is a difference.

 

 

Why must we nitpick? The bottom line is, both stations were victims of circumstances OUTSIDE of the MTA.

 

 

And I repeat, It will not take anywhere near 3 years to complete.

 

 

Do you have any evidence to back up this claim, Mr. Transit Prophet?

[Kendell]

(O) . I dont belive this. THE STATION isnt even half damaged! I mean the electrical Stuff is wet and needs to be replaced by what else? Give the station some mopping and cleaning time and BAM your done! Trains can still run to south ferry. Or cant they?

[Cait Sith]

(O) . I dont belive this. THE STATION isnt even half damaged! I mean the electrical Stuff is wet and needs to be replaced by what else? Give the station some mopping and cleaning time and BAM your done! Trains can still run to south ferry. Or cant they?

 

No offense, but you're a moron for posting something like this. The station has sustained much more damage than it looks outside from the electrical equipment.

[realizm]

 

"It could be three years before the South Ferry subway station at the tip of lower Manhattan, heavily damaged in superstorm Sandy, is fully restored to service, Metropolitan Transportation Authority officials now say.

 

Even before it launches a rebuilding effort estimated to cost $600 million, the MTA must decide whether to move some of the electronic equipment of one of its most vulnerable stations to a higher elevation, to guard against future floods."

 

.

                                                                                                                                                                    Peter Foley for The Wall Street Journal

 

Wynton Habersham, the MTA's chief electrical officer, points out salt water damage from Sandy at the South Ferry subway station.

 

 

Source - Wall Street Journal: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324468104578248352448657848.html

 

 

Since the MTA restored service on the R train from adjoining Whitehall Street through its tunnel into Brooklyn on Dec. 21, equipment in that section of the line has failed at least once a day, including again on Thursday morning, Mr. Habersham said.

 

Corrosion has had effects both visible and hidden. In the relay room at South Ferry, a subcontractor scrubbed clean the steel pins that held the relay boxes in place. Days later, the lichen-colored corrosion spots had returned in force.

 

"That's why the manufacturers felt you have to just get rid of it," Mr. Habersham said. "There's not much you can do with it once it's been exposed."

 

To cope with breakdowns, the signals division has been forced to staff the Montague Tube, which carries the R train under the East River, 24 hours a day since it reopened.

 

 

 

This finally caught my eye from the article VG8 posted in his opening post. It's really THAT bad in the Montaugue street tunnel, that the signal maintainers are constantly chasing after corrosion on the signal system 24-7? That's some pretty serious corrosion damage if it's haunting the signals division like that, months later and a new year in, after the fact!

[LTA1992]

Why must we nitpick? The bottom line is, both stations were victims of circumstances OUTSIDE of the MTA.

 

 

 

 

Do you have any evidence to back up this claim, Mr. Transit Prophet?

Why nitpick? That's how I am. A very literal person. I'd rather hear the proper words when describing something. There may be a name for that somewhere...

 

My proof is in the recent past. When the WTC Section of the line was destroyed, it was opened up within a year. Way earlier than originally estimated. The Chambers Street station fire in the signal room. It was originally estimated to take 3-5 years to fix and was completed sometime around 6-9 months afterward. South Ferry is no exception .It's an extremely important transfer point. I'm sure they will have it fixed up in no time.

[Kendell]

No offense, but you're a moron for posting something like this. The station has sustained much more damage than it looks outside from the electrical equipment.

How is that not offensive? Anyway ive seen the pics. Theres not much damgae.

[Cait Sith]

How is that not offensive? Anyway ive seen the pics. Theres not much damgae.

 

Ok, so how about you go there yourself and start messing around with stuff since you apparently know how damaged the station is....pictures don't always tell the FULL story you know....

[Kendell]

Oh.... well sorry.