MTA has found five defective subway rails since inspections stepped-up

[User]

The MTA has found at least five defective subway rails since Tuesday during stepped-up inspections prompted by last week’s F-train derailment.

Two of the broken rails were found on F tracks about 30 blocks from the derailment site in Woodside, Queens. A rail is classified as “broken” even if it has a fracture.

“Finding them is normal especially when we’re doing extra runs of the inspection cars,” spokesman Adam Lisberg said. “It doesn’t mean there are more broken rails. It means we are finding more.”

Transit officials and sources said broken rails were found on the F line near 36th St, in Queens; the No. 7 line near Willetts Point; the D line near 62nd St., Brooklyn; and the Q line at Stillwell Ave. in Coney Island, Brooklyn.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/mta-found-defective-subway-rails-article-1.1783945#ixzz31SpJ9kXx

[peacemak3r]

I wish the DOT had the same "stepped-up" inspections of the poor roads of NYC.

 

But I'm glad everything is stepped-up and people are taking things like this more seriously.

[Ethan777]

Speaking of tracks, what makes the subway trains produce such loud noises? I almost got deaf when Broadway trains clattered past me on the manhatten bridge when my family took a walk over it last June.

 

I know on the El viaducts, ballast isnt used thus trains make lots of noise but for underground, what contributes to the noise? The tracks underground look clamped down proper. Besides, even the Singapore MRT uses concrete surface for the underground trackbed and the trains there can't match up with the amt of noise produced here.

 

Will the flushing line extension and SAS feature maybe softer track noises? Especially for SAS, did the MTA consider using floating slab for sections of tunnel near buildings? The rubber pads to support the track bed helps to cut down a huge amt of wheel noise when trains run.

[S78 via Hylan]

It's a good thing they found those broken rails and are looking into this more. The less accidents, the better.

[Eric B]

Now we're being told System Safety is going to be going after US (including the TSS's supposedly letting things slide) in light of this.

But will there be any investigation into whose fault all these bad rails are? (the manufacturer/vendor, or the MTA officials ordering them).

 

The people in either agency, who make the decisions as to the quality of the rails get paid a lot of money to KNOW these things. (You cannot have even the wildest hope of getting those jobs without a LOT of education and experience). Their [likely large] compensation and perks are often justified based on the premise that they "climbed up" and gained the “Knowledge, Skills and Responsibility (KSR)”.

Yet their mistakes seem to be treated as “acts of God”; like "oh well, that's just nature", while the agency just turns the heat up on the operating personnel after every incident (even if it's not our fault, as apparently in this case).

They say because we're "safety sensitive", but It's obvious the decision-makers in cases like this can potentially cause as much death and destruction as us going too fast or being unfit for duty.

[Lance]

Now that's just terrible. And not to mention low down and dirty. I mean, the agency has the gall to remove fault from the train crew for the derailment, but then punish those who had nothing to do with this incident. If any of the workers are to blame, it should be those who installed the damn rail in the first place. If that's not the case, then blame and punishment should fall on the vendors and perhaps the MTA should stop being so cheap with their purchases and maybe they won't fall apart so quickly.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Now we're being told System Safety is going to be going after US (including the TSS's supposedly letting things slide) in light of this.

But will there be any investigation into whose fault all these bad rails are? (the manufacturer/vendor, or the MTA officials ordering them).

 

The people in either agency, who make the decisions as to the quality of the rails get paid a lot of money to KNOW these things. (You cannot have even the wildest hope of getting those jobs without a LOT of education and experience). Their [likely large] compensation and perks are often justified based on the premise that they "climbed up" and gained the “Knowledge, Skills and Responsibility (KSR)”.

Yet their mistakes seem to be treated as “acts of God”; like "oh well, that's just nature", while the agency just turns the heat up on the operating personnel after every incident (even if it's not our fault, as apparently in this case).

 

They say because we're "safety sensitive", but It's obvious the decision-makers in cases like this can potentially cause as much death and destruction as us going too fast or being unfit for duty.

lol.... Seems like the never ending saga where the employees with blame management, management will blame the employees and it's as if NO ONE is EVER at fault.  It's quite funny to be honest.  It's somebody's fault, be it the employees, management or the vendor/manufacturer...

[46Dover]

Now that's just terrible. And not to mention low down and dirty. I mean, the agency has the gall to remove fault from the train crew for the derailment, but then punish those who had nothing to do with this incident. If any of the workers are to blame, it should be those who installed the damn rail in the first place. If that's not the case, then blame and punishment should fall on the vendors and perhaps the MTA should stop being so cheap with their purchases and maybe they won't fall apart so quickly.

See Grumman 870/R46-Rockwell fiasco...

lol.... Seems like the never ending saga where the employees with blame management, management will blame the employees and it's as if NO ONE is EVER at fault. It's quite funny to be honest. It's somebody's fault, be it the employees, management or the vendor/manufacturer...

I think the better solution is to have employees and management face back to back, march 10 paces, turn around, and may the best man win (cue western showdown whistle)....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I think the better solution is to have employees and management face back to back, march 10 paces, turn around, and may the best man win (cue western showdown whistle)....

LOL!

[B35 via Church]

As if subway riders don't have enough to worry about....

 

Not sure how many of you know about exterminating vermin, but as the saying goes - if you see one rodent in the house, there's 5 more that you don't see.... The last thing we need on the subways are more derailments; especially as increasingly as say, these b/o's being assaulted nowadays......

 

“Finding them is normal especially when we’re doing extra runs of the inspection cars,” spokesman Adam Lisberg said. “It doesn’t mean there are more broken rails. It means we are finding more.”

I find this insulting.... Considering how many lives can be affected by a train running on a broken rail, you should be more worried about finding the broken rails, having them fixed, and shutting what's called the f*** up afterwards - Not playing word games to try to quell growing concerns from riders (which there should most certainly be, after hearing/reading about something like this)......

[46Dover]

As if subway riders don't have enough to worry about....

 

Not sure how many of you know about exterminating vermin, but as the saying goes - if you see one rodent in the house, there's 5 more that you don't see.... The last thing we need on the subways are more derailments; especially as increasingly as say, these b/o's being assaulted nowadays......

 

I find this insulting.... Considering how many lives can be affected by a train running on a broken rail, you should be more worried about finding the broken rails, having them fixed, and shutting what's called the f*** up afterwards - Not playing word games to try to quell growing concerns from riders (which there should most certainly be, after hearing/reading about something like this)......

This is why I say if you are running a mass transit operation, you have to spend money for sake of Quality. Too many times transit agencies go to the "lowest bidder" for such things as new equipment (as I said before, see Grumman 870 and R46 Rockwell fiasco) and more often than not, you end up with egg in your face because you want to save an extra penny. For what?

 

Definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting to get a different result....

[dp142]

Speaking of tracks, what makes the subway trains produce such loud noises? I almost got deaf when Broadway trains clattered past me on the manhatten bridge when my family took a walk over it last June.

 

I know on the El viaducts, ballast isnt used thus trains make lots of noise but for underground, what contributes to the noise? The tracks underground look clamped down proper. Besides, even the Singapore MRT uses concrete surface for the underground trackbed and the trains there can't match up with the amt of noise produced here.

 

Will the flushing line extension and SAS feature maybe softer track noises? Especially for SAS, did the MTA consider using floating slab for sections of tunnel near buildings? The rubber pads to support the track bed helps to cut down a huge amt of wheel noise when trains run.

 

The loud noise mainly comes from the train riding over the older style rails that are bolted together with joint bars and bolts. There will always be play in between the rails bolted together when there is expansion and contraction of the rails. When there are gaps, even 1/4", the wheels make a "click clack" sound going over the joints.

 

The newer way is to weld ten (10) rail lengths together (known as CWR- Continuously Welded rail) eliminating the joint bars and gaps in the rails. It makes for a smoother and quieter ride. There is also much less maintenance involved with CWR. Track does not have to inspect bolts and joint bars, Signal has no continuity bonds to inspect anymore and Third Rail has no Negative continuity bonds to inspect anymore being the rails bing welded take care of that now.

[R10 2952]

The MTA is clearly not getting things done right.  Maybe we should do with the MTA what Massachusetts did with the MBTA- take away its autonomy and place it under the direct control of the State Department of Transportation.  Hey, it worked for them.

[CenSin]

Definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting to get a different result....

I hate when people quote that, because it's so easily proven wrong: like when I roll a die 100 times and get different numbers; or a basketball player aims for the hoop and hits or misses; or when I press the power button on my phone like I always do and it doesn't turn on; or when Intel's highly sophisticated chip fabrication machinery churns out a few bad processors despite the fact that each of them were made the same way. My point is: unless you have full control over something (which is not 100% possible), you are not insane if you get different results from doing something more than once.

 

EDIT: Here's what Google found.

• Psychology Today: The Definition of Insanity is...
• O'Reilly: The Definition of Insanity is, perhaps, using that quote.
• Salon: “The definition of insanity” is the most overused cliché of all time

[QM1to6Ave]

The loud noise mainly comes from the train riding over the older style rails that are bolted together with joint bars and bolts. There will always be play in between the rails bolted together when there is expansion and contraction of the rails. When there are gaps, even 1/4", the wheels make a "click clack" sound going over the joints.

 

The newer way is to weld ten (10) rail lengths together (known as CWR- Continuously Welded rail) eliminating the joint bars and gaps in the rails. It makes for a smoother and quieter ride. There is also much less maintenance involved with CWR. Track does not have to inspect bolts and joint bars, Signal has no continuity bonds to inspect anymore and Third Rail has no Negative continuity bonds to inspect anymore being the rails bing welded take care of that now.

Have you heard anything about the investigation of the F derailment as to who is getting the blame for that cracked rail? 

[46Dover]

<p>

 

I hate when people quote that, because it's so easily proven wrong: like when I roll a die 100 times and get different numbers; or a basketball player aims for the hoop and hits or misses; or when I press the power button on my phone like I always do and it doesn't turn on; or when Intel's highly sophisticated chip fabrication machinery churns out a few bad processors despite the fact that each of them were made the same way. My point is: unless you have full control over something (which is not 100% possible), you are not insane if you get different results from doing something more than once.

 

EDIT: Here's what Google found.

• Psychology Today: The Definition of Insanity is...
• O'Reilly: The Definition of Insanity is, perhaps, using that quote.
• Salon: “The definition of insanity” is the most overused cliché of all time

I said it because like I said, it pertains to everything MTA and other transit agencies do

[CenSin]

I said it because like I said, it pertains to everything MTA and other transit agencies do

One blogger called the quote "the stupidest thing ever said by a smart person."

[dp142]

The loud noise mainly comes from the train riding over the older style rails that are bolted together with joint bars and bolts. There will always be play in between the rails bolted together when there is expansion and contraction of the rails. When there are gaps, even 1/4", the wheels make a "click clack" sound going over the joints.

 

The newer way is to weld ten (10) rail lengths together (known as CWR- Continuously Welded rail) eliminating the joint bars and gaps in the rails. It makes for a smoother and quieter ride. There is also much less maintenance involved with CWR. Track does not have to inspect bolts and joint bars, Signal has no continuity bonds to inspect anymore and Third Rail has no Negative continuity bonds to inspect anymore being the rails bing welded take care of that now.

 

I haven't heard anything particular about where the blame may lie. Then again I haven't really asked around much.

 

Truth is there are broken rails are found many a time throughout the subway. If it can be changed right away (a rail on site or near by) it will be. If it's to close to rush hour or no rail available then holes will be drilled on either side of the crack and a Joint Bar placed around the crack to keep it together until it can be changed. I'd say about 2 a month are found by employees who walk Track and do a visual inspection as they are walking just out of habit.

[bobtehpanda]

The MTA is clearly not getting things done right.  Maybe we should do with the MTA what Massachusetts did with the MBTA- take away its autonomy and place it under the direct control of the State Department of Transportation.  Hey, it worked for them.

 

The entire reason the MTA was created was because it was going to crap when it was under the NYC Board of Transportation, and because it had no dedicated funding source.

[QM1to6Ave]

I haven't heard anything particular about where the blame may lie. Then again I haven't really asked around much.

 

Truth is there are broken rails are found many a time throughout the subway. If it can be changed right away (a rail on site or near by) it will be. If it's to close to rush hour or no rail available then holes will be drilled on either side of the crack and a Joint Bar placed around the crack to keep it together until it can be changed. I'd say about 2 a month are found by employees who walk Track and do a visual inspection as they are walking just out of habit.

thanks for the info!

[realizm]

I haven't heard anything particular about where the blame may lie. Then again I haven't really asked around much.

 

Truth is there are broken rails are found many a time throughout the subway. If it can be changed right away (a rail on site or near by) it will be. If it's to close to rush hour or no rail available then holes will be drilled on either side of the crack and a Joint Bar placed around the crack to keep it together until it can be changed. I'd say about 2 a month are found by employees who walk Track and do a visual inspection as they are walking just out of habit.

 

I see so thats how its done! I always wondered how personel would handle emergency infrastructure issues on the fly during peak hours. I see this done all the time but I never understood how track workers can alleviate rail conditions so quickly, almost seamlessly and quickly. Now finally you have just explained for us from your experience in transit rail operations how its done, now I know. Always learning something new. +1.

[RTOMan]

I haven't heard anything particular about where the blame may lie. Then again I haven't really asked around much.

 

Truth is there are broken rails are found many a time throughout the subway. If it can be changed right away (a rail on site or near by) it will be. If it's to close to rush hour or no rail available then holes will be drilled on either side of the crack and a Joint Bar placed around the crack to keep it together until it can be changed. I'd say about 2 a month are found by employees who walk Track and do a visual inspection as they are walking just out of habit.

I was waiting for you to chime in thank you. Going by the press and the papers they got some folks thinking this is a epidemic geez,talk about panic in the streets.

[R10 2952]

@bobtehpanda: The MTA is crap as it is, and their funding is pretty inconsistent as it is.  Also I said State Department Of Transportation, not City.   Massachusetts carried out a reorganization along those lines with the MBTA and Turnpike Authority and it worked out very well for them.  They now have to answer to the Commonwealth so they no longer pull corrupt BS like they did with the Big Dig.   

[exseed]

These track conditions should really be taken care of once and for all. Instead of continuously patching up the broken parts as they show up in tracks that are still using outdated technology, the MTA should rather rip out sections of track bed and rebuild them entirely to modern standards (CWR, concrete ties, etc.) in order to more effectively prevent these broken rails from occurring in the first place. I understand it would cause more extensive service disruptions, but I wouldn't mind more crowding and forgoing an uptown or downtown express ride for a couple of weeks or however long it will take if it means less maintenance issues and a smoother ride in the long run. An ounce of prevention...

[realizm]

These track conditions should really be taken care of once and for all. Instead of continuously patching up the broken parts as they show up in tracks that are still using outdated technology, the MTA should rather rip out sections of track bed and rebuild them entirely to modern standards (CWR, concrete ties, etc.) in order to more effectively prevent these broken rails from occurring in the first place. I understand it would cause more extensive service disruptions, but I wouldn't mind more crowding and forgoing an uptown or downtown express ride for a couple of weeks or however long it will take if it means less maintenance issues and a smoother ride in the long run. An ounce of prevention...

 

They are. The CCC in conjunction with Track and Signals Division are planning to install continuous welded rail along the IND Queens Blvd Line in 2015 as the original articles point out as a reminder. In the tunnels they are utilizing proxy/concrete ties in certain places already in areas such as the 53rd Street tubes and now the Greenpoint tubes:

 

They will look like this-

 

 

 

Source: MTA - http://web.mta.info/nyct/service/FixingtheGreenpointTubes.htm

 

Above ground concrete ties on the BMT Sea Beach line:

 

Source: MTA https://www.flickr.com/photos/mtaphotos/6140523684/