Second Avenue subway may divert Q trains out of Astoria, leaving some Queens residents worried about

[Union Tpke]

 

Second Avenue subway may divert Q trains out of Astoria, leaving some Queens residents worried about losing service

BY  DAN RIVOLI ,  CHRIS SOMMERFELDT 

 

NEW YORK DAILY NEWS

 

Thursday, June 4, 2015, 11:19 PM

• A

 

A

 

A

 

 

 

19

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

12

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SHARE THIS URL

 

 

LOUIS LANZANO/FOR NEW YORK DAILY NEWS

 

In diverting the Q line to the East Side, NYC Transit has not decided if the N can handle riders in Astoria 'or if there will need to be trains added,' according to an email obtained by the Daily News.

As the Second Avenue subway promises a new life line in Manhattan when it opens in December 2016, Astoria riders may lose out.

In diverting the Q line to the East Side, NYC Transit has not decided if the N can handle riders in Astoria “or if there will need to be trains added,” according to an email obtained by the Daily News.

The email was sent to at least two riders who inquired to the MTA about Q service in Queens by Joseph O’Donnell, outreach director for the megaproject.

MTA spokesman Kevin Ortiz stressed the transit agency is not planning a service cut.

“While the route letters may change, and exactly what will happen hasn’t been determined yet, we have no plans to reduce service on the Astoria or any other line,” Ortiz said.

But the prospect of losing the Q line was a question on the minds of concerned Astoria riders.

"With only one train everything's going to take a lot more time,” said Hanna Durovix, 25, whose commute takes her to Brooklyn and Manhattan. “For now, it’s good.”

Frank Nelson, 52, a Rye, New York, resident who takes the N and Q almost every day to his job in Astoria, complained current service leaves him hanging on the platform.

“Already now, if you're on the N or Q during rush hour it's way too packed,” Nelson said. “It would become ridiculous if they took away even more trains.”

Sen. Michael Gianaris of Astoria said that while the MTA’s assurances sound good, he wants to make sure capacity on the Astoria train lines is maintained.

But given the crowds of waiting commuters he sees from his district office, “what they really should be doing is increasing service,” he said.

 

 

THE W IS COMING BACK For goodness sakes.

 

[MysteriousBtrain]

Well the can still have select trips to Astoria if anything.

Or as others always say, bring back the pre-2010 changes back to broadway, including an express and revival.

[Sparen of Iria]

The will not be seeing select trips to Astoria. Firstly, it would result in an abysmal TPH on SAS, and the Q already has merging problems with the . 

 

I foresee the coming back, because it is the easiest, least confusing, and most logical suggestion.

[Eric B]

But it's surprising that the email didn't even mention the idea of bringing the back.

[West End]

I'm sure it's because the MTA doesn't want to make any broken promises. The most logical solution is to bring back the , but for all we know, they might want to call it an additional to Whitehall Street service, kind of like how the runs to three terminals in Queens. This isn't a new idea -- when trains terminated at Queensboro Plaza pre-2010 for construction, the MTA would run additional trains to Whitehall Street (and avoid using the " " name on weekends).

[S78 via Hylan]

But the thing is, that will be too confusing for passengers. As it's been said over and over, the best solution would simply be just to restore the .

[bobtehpanda]

Well the can still have select trips to Astoria if anything.

Or as others always say, bring back the pre-2010 changes back to broadway, including an express and revival.

 

 

I'm sure it's because the MTA doesn't want to make any broken promises. The most logical solution is to bring back the , but for all we know, they might want to call it an additional to Whitehall Street service, kind of like how the runs to three terminals in Queens. This isn't a new idea -- when trains terminated at Queensboro Plaza pre-2010 for construction, the MTA would run additional trains to Whitehall Street (and avoid using the " " name on weekends).

 

That's the kind of half-ass crap the MTA does for GOs, not during regular peak service.

 

The is most likely coming back, since the MTA cannot take too much TPH from a dedicated local or express service. The Astoria Line has had dedicated local service and weekday express service for quite a while now.

[MysteriousBtrain]

The will not be seeing select trips to Astoria. Firstly, it would result in an abysmal TPH on SAS, and the Q already has merging problems with the .

 

I foresee the coming back, because it is the easiest, least confusing, and most logical suggestion.

That's the kind of half-ass crap the MTA does for GOs, not during regular peak service.

 

The is most likely coming back, since the MTA cannot take too much TPH from a dedicated local or express service. The Astoria Line has had dedicated local service and weekday express service for quite a while now.

Yes I know the split is not good, but the mta mentioned nothing about the returning (although I see it coming back in some form as well) so it kinda set a few questions for me because why would they leave the out?

I'm sure it's because the MTA doesn't want to make any broken promises. The most logical solution is to bring back the , but for all we know, they might want to call it an additional to Whitehall Street service, kind of like how the runs to three terminals in Queens. This isn't a new idea -- when trains terminated at Queensboro Plaza pre-2010 for construction, the MTA would run additional trains to Whitehall Street (and avoid using the " " name on weekends).

Again, no mention of the so for now, anything can happen.

[Javier]

They should have thought about that first before eliminating the and the ,

[MysteriousBtrain]

They should have thought about that first before eliminating the and the ,

The is still here. And just because the is gone due to the 2010 cuts that doesn't mean it's dead forever. Look at the , , and even the .

Edit: if you meant instead of , what does the have to do with Astoria service?

[paulrivera]

Knowing how the works, they would probably have a rush hour only service and bump up the to 8 minute headways during the midday and evenings during the week. (sarcasm) Maybe they'll run the rush hour trips via the West End out of Bay Parkway and make the express in peak direction from Bay Parkway to 9th Avenue while the makes all local stops. The would probably run express in Manhattan rush hours only (it kinda does that now, but those few trains don't even go to Queens at all) and run local all other times in this purely hypothetical (and tongue-in-cheek) scenario.

[Javier]

Sorry I meant .

!!!!! I MEANT !!!!!

[BronxBombers]

Knowing how the works, they would probably have a rush hour only service and bump up the to 8 minute headways during the midday and evenings during the week. (sarcasm) Maybe they'll run the rush hour trips via the West End out of Bay Parkway and make the express in peak direction from Bay Parkway to 9th Avenue while the makes all local stops. The would probably run express in Manhattan rush hours only (it kinda does that now, but those few trains don't even go to Queens at all) and run local all other times in this purely hypothetical (and tongue-in-cheek) scenario.

 

I see the coming back as a Rush Hour peak direction service... or extra trains between Astoria and Whitehall.

[RollOver]

It's going to be a Christmas miracle once the finally announces what will happen after the is permanently rerouted from Astoria to SAS and all of these so-called thoughts/suggestions are put to the grave. People just seem to think that the should just do what the and do and no way is that ever going to happen. They're not going to run 15-20 minute headways on the SAS branch. All of you here know for sure that what will become of the once SAS opens is permanent for real.

 

This isn't the Lefferts branch, where riders are pathetically obsessed with their express that they don't realize that local-only service would mean 10 minute headways instead of the 15-20 minute headways they get now with express-only service. And this would have been a relief for Aqueduct and JFK goers, where they would regularly get 9-10 trains per hour instead of the 3-4 trains per hour they get almost every time outside of rush hours. Whatever. Let the Lefferts branch customers have all this "every other train" stuff they want. Sorry for the Aqueduct and JFK riders though.

 

This also isn't the Far Rock nor Rock Park branches either, where ridership in the peninsula is among the lowest in the system (aside from the Far Rock station terminal itself) because the demand for transit is low. So let's get rid of this ridiculous idea of sending each train here and there. It's just going to cause unnecessary confusion. Just because the trains on the line are all new doesn't mean there won't be confusion. Think about some JFK riders who end up on the Lefferts platform instead of the Howard Beach platform. People just don't pay attention. What else can you do about that? Looking back to the current setup, I don't really mind having the as the express and the as a local in Manhattan even though it should actually be the other way around given the track arrangement in both Manhattan and Brooklyn on both lines.

 

Anyways, wish for the ultimate best in the future for the subway system.

[R3216068E]

If the does come back it's going to be taken cared of in coney island yard again the would be fully NTT because it's sharing equipment with the coney island yard needs extra trains

[FlushingExpress]

If the does come back it's going to be taken cared of in coney island yard again the would be fully NTT because it's sharing equipment with the coney island yard needs extra trains

 

Hence why I doubt the will come back. Don't think Coney Island has enough R160s for the entire . The MTA suffered a major car shortage when the R44s retired. It was pretty much a (W)orthless train anyway. All it accomplished was congestion at Whitehall and 34th Streets. Broadway does not need four services. Just run more trains and it can handle Astoria alone. In fact, all lettered trains except the need more service!

[RollOver]

The does have roughly the same off-peak headways like the and - 9 trains per hour.

[MysteriousBtrain]

Hence why I doubt the will come back. Don't think Coney Island has enough R160s for the entire . The MTA suffered a major car shortage when the R44s retired. It was pretty much a (W)orthless train anyway. All it accomplished was congestion at Whitehall and 34th Streets. Broadway does not need four services. Just run more trains and it can handle Astoria alone. In fact, all lettered trains except the need more service!

Which the reason why there are 4 10 car R179s ordered for NYCT. It expands the fleet sightly for 2 avenue and the / fleet would not be affected much.

[Fresh Pond]

The is still here. And just because the is gone due to the 2010 cuts that doesn't mean it's dead forever. Look at the , , and even the .

Edit: if you meant instead of , what does the have to do with Astoria service?

The technically never left. They (personnel and crew) designate the Rock Park as

[Dj Hammers]

Hence why I doubt the will come back. Don't think Coney Island has enough R160s for the entire . The MTA suffered a major car shortage when the R44s retired. It was pretty much a (W)orthless train anyway. All it accomplished was congestion at Whitehall and 34th Streets. Broadway does not need four services. Just run more trains and it can handle Astoria alone. In fact, all lettered trains except the need more service!

Unless I'm mistaken, I'm pretty sure that the N is bottlenecked by Dekalb Interlocking.

[Lance]

To everyone: The W has to come back in some capacity. While it may not be called the W, which may be the reason the MTA is keeping hush on this, there needs to be an Astoria-Broadway extra line when the Q gets sent to 96 Street next year (hopefully). Currently, the Astoria line enjoys around 10-12 trains per hour during on weekdays. If the service reverts back to having the N as the sole Astoria line, service will be effectively cut in half, which is obviously not an ideal solution.

 

Now, once again, there have calls to simply increase the number of N trains. The problem with that lies on the southern end of the N-line. If they increase the number of N trains to match the currently N/Q service levels on Astoria, they will over-serve the Sea Beach line. That means some of those proposed trains will be short-turned somewhere along the Broadway line, likely Whitehall St. To reduce any potential confusion, so as to repeat the N-diamond mess of the early 80s, they'll relabel those short-turns as another route entirely, probably the W.

 

As we get closer to the opening date of the 2nd Ave line, we'll probably get more concrete information on what will be running to Astoria and how such a service will operate. Remember, these things have to be agreed by committee at the MTA along with the union. Until then, let's just wait and see.

[RollOver]

Of course I'm always all for the simple option. The is basically short turning trains, just like how the is basically short turning trains, and the is (or should I say, was) basically short turning trains. I'm glad they did that M/V combo though. The Fourth Avenue Local and West End lines already have 9-10 trains per hour (give or take) during rush hours anyway. No need for 15-17 trains per hour on those two lines, especially because more people in South Brooklyn work in Midtown Manhattan than Lower Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn. That old brown M was as useless as a ghost train. If the W starts and ends respectively, obviously it'll most likely head to/from Brooklyn and the Sea Beach Line is more viable than West End because the N and W are almost the same thing and are both based out of Coney Island yard and can swap at Astoria at any given time.

[LTA1992]

It will need to be as the only other, and more confusing, option would be an N Diamond Express to brooklyn with the N Local to Whitehall. I doubt the MTA will be willing to make a new bullet when one created for this purpose already exists.

 

"Basically" short turns, you say? Non. Supplementary, not counting the , is a more proper term. 

[RollOver]

So? Does it matter? Short turn, supplement, part-time line etc. Same thing. Big whoop. What else are those three lines that I've mention are to you then? I'm not trying to be technical at all here, but I specifically used the term "short turn" because that's what it indeed is. It's not the full version of the , is it? It's just a line anyway. So don't tell me that I should say it the way you think I should say it. The makes the same exact stops like the does anyway. As said before, they're not going to run all of those trains down the Sea Beach Line when off-peak ridership is lower. So what does that tell you? Obviously, you can certainly say that the are all supplementary, but the are more of a short turn than supplementary because they run alongside (or with) their full-time counterparts for almost or fully of their routes. But even then, they're just lines anyway. Who cares which term someone uses. Those are just minor sentences. Not really anything wrong with that.

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

I don't see where the Sea Beach line would be overserved by increasing peak-hour service and I can make the argument that the Astoria line in the status quo is overserved. The latest ridership numbers show us that the Astoria line pulls in 68,860 riders (I did not count QBP for an obvious reason) on an average weekday and the Sea Beach line pulls in 52,697. That's a difference of about 16,000 riders which is definitely not enough to justify one line essentially getting double the service levels of the other. It is the case that and trains come in to Manhattan very crowded during the rush hours but that actually has more to do with the than Astoria usage alone. Look at it from the perspective of a rider boarding at Queensboro Plaza seeking the Lexington Av Line. Given the very high usage of the most of those trains are coming into QBP packed. The (N)/(Q) are coming in less crowded and don't have any stops separating it from the Lex so a rider seeking that xfer will just board a (N)/(Q) by default. Once those riders board at QBP now you have packed trains heading to 59/Lex. Not to mention some of these QBP riders are also coming off of the itself. I find it very disingenuous that Astoria riders can claim they need the service they get because crowds swarm their trains at a stop not in Astoria itself. If you can't seem to believe this actually go out and fan these lines at Queensboro Plaza as I have done several times. Several of the MTA's own observations on overcrowding in our subway system support this observation. (N)/(Q) trains are shown in almost any PDF the MTA puts out on the subject of crowding as being overcrowded in between Queensboro Plaza and Lexington/59th during the peak hours. Now add in that the is shown to be overcrowded between 74th or Woodside (depending on the train being local or express) and QBP and now you see the picture i'm getting at.

 

The most logical solution in a post SAS system is to increase service (not even by that much, I would say 2-3 trains per hour at most) and short-turn any necessary southbound trains at Whitehall, Atlantic-Barclays or 59th/4th Av. Riders going northbound from Sea Beach in the morning should also get a similar service increase with trains turning at either Times Sq or 57th/7th if necessary.