Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[RR503]

Especially considering BQX, that's supposed to connect LIC to the 4 Av Line, apparently quicker than the existing rail service

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BQX is a crap idea. It's all about deblasio's ego along with his developer friends and not about transport. The fact that they had to falsify travel time and market data for their 'study' speaks volumes about it, I'd say.

 

The problem with LRT in NYC more generally is that most of the corridors you mention should be getting subway service. LRT is just a bandaid

[bobtehpanda]

They should have never torn down the EL's in the Bronx in the first place.

 

Wasn't it incapable of even carrying the newer cars because of weight restrictions?

[bobtehpanda]

BQX is a crap idea. It's all about deblasio's ego along with his developer friends and not about transport. The fact that they had to falsify travel time and market data for their 'study' speaks volumes about it, I'd say.

 

The problem with LRT in NYC more generally is that most of the corridors you mention should be getting subway service. LRT is just a bandaid

 

LRT is good for 'crosstown' corridors, or corridors awkward to serve with subway service. Off the top of my head, a few shortlist candidates are

 

• Pelham Pkwy buses (so the current Bx12, Bx9, Bx17, Bx22) with full grade separation west of Southern Blvd
• All buses serving the GWB bus terminal
• The Bx6, possibly with a branch following portions of the Bx5
• Any Flushing-Jamaica routes
• The Q46 and Q10 corridors
• B35

You'd need to do a route study though, since especially in the case of Brooklyn, TriboroRX could end up destroying a lot of demand for crosstown medium-capacity transit.

[Lawrence St]

Wasn't it incapable of even carrying the newer cars because of weight restrictions?

If that was the case then why did the current elevated's survive?

[Lance]

They should have never torn down the EL's in the Bronx in the first place.

I agree with you there. Unfortunately, by the time the Bronx portion of the 3rd Avenue elevated came down in '73, there was barely any ridership left, what with the political and social climate of the Bronx at the time, as well as the fact the line was a glorified shuttle to the at that point. Once the Manhattan portion was torn down in the '50s, it became a challenge to justify the remaining portion with the dwindling ridership. Also, at the time of the demolition, the MTA had promised a new subway nearby would be built "soon".

 

Wasn't it incapable of even carrying the newer cars because of weight restrictions?

Nope. In the remaining 20 or so years between the line's cutback to 149 Street and the complete removal in the '70s, both the railcars that ran on the line, as well as the line itself, were heavily modified to withstand the weight load. The center track was removed from most of the line south of Bedford Park Blvd and the R12s had their dynamic braking system disabled to reduce the amount of stress that was constantly placed on the structure, which was built around the turn of the 20th century.

 

If that was the case then why did the current elevated's survive?

A combination of structure rehabs and general maintenance. Take for instance the Jamaica line. The line between Marcy Av and Cypress Hills dates back to the late 1800s. In the '80s, many elevated lines, including this one, were significantly rehabbed to replace aging steel and to bring the line into a state of good repair. It also helps that the line was used, even during the time when subway ridership was at an all time low.

[RailRunRob]

I agree with you there. Unfortunately, by the time the Bronx portion of the 3rd Avenue elevated came down in '73, there was barely any ridership left, what with the political and social climate of the Bronx at the time, as well as the fact the line was a glorified shuttle to the at that point. Once the Manhattan portion was torn down in the '50s, it became a challenge to justify the remaining portion with the dwindling ridership. Also, at the time of the demolition, the MTA had promised a new subway nearby would be built "soon".

 

Nope. In the remaining 20 or so years between the line's cutback to 149 Street and the complete removal in the '70s, both the railcars that ran on the line, as well as the line itself, were heavily modified to withstand the weight load. The center track was removed from most of the line south of Bedford Park Blvd and the R12s had their dynamic braking system disabled to reduce the amount of stress that was constantly placed on the structure, which was built around the turn of the 20th century.

 

 

Indeed the Third in the Bronx was a loss. The line north of Fordham was to subway standards correct? I remember seeing R33-36's on that section of the line, not in revenue service of course. I never understood why they didn't use the ROW south of 149th to tie into the Pelham Line at 138th would have at least that might have saved it. If it would have lasted into the Early 80s I feel it would still be here. I remember using the GunHillRoad station as a kid with tracks on the lower level still in place I had a great aunt that live in the area on Bronx Blvd. I remember always looking forward to trying to check out the old platform. 

[Lawrence St]

They SHOULD rebuild the 3rd Avenue Elevated instead of focusing on SAS.

[RailRunRob]

They SHOULD rebuild the 3rd Avenue Elevated instead of focusing on SAS.

In Manhattan? SAS was a solid plan more flexibility with underground trains especially with the density you have in Manhattan. They just couldn't execute some of the misfires not to the City's fault. I do agree they should have held the EL until the subway was completed.  They had it out for the El's, to begin with, the Second Ave was built better and stronger than the 3rd and it had a connection to Queens more useful and easier to upgrade. This was strategic the 3rd's fate was almost sealed there. But the death kiss was the cut back to Chatham which greatly reduced capacity on the line and the closing of 99th and 179th street yards. Making operations intensive and costly you'd have to deadhead trains from the Bronx to go into service. The 3rd would have been so costly to upgrade the local tracks didn't even have signal blocks in place and couldn't run trains over a certain weight with passengers I believe over 57,000-60,000 lbs (Light) If I remember correctly the upper limit's was around 70,000lbs. So El's in Manhattan were doomed. However, they shouldn't have been removed without replacements.

 

(Update) Are you saying they should build a new elevated line?

Edited March 23, 2017 by RailRunRob

[Lawrence St]

Yes in the Bronx, I'm saying their focusing to much on SAS.

[S78 via Hylan]

Yes in the Bronx, I'm saying their focusing to much on SAS.

The SAS is badly needed. Look at how much impact the first phase alone had on Lexington Ave:

[RailRunRob]

Yes in the Bronx, I'm saying their focusing to much on SAS.

What would a 3rd Ave Bronx line connect to? If not the SAS?

[Lance]

Indeed the Third in the Bronx was a loss. The line north of Fordham was to subway standards correct? I remember seeing R33-36's on that section of the line, not in revenue service of course. I never understood why they didn't use the ROW south of 149th to tie into the Pelham Line at 138th would have at least that might have saved it. If it would have lasted into the Early 80s I feel it would still be here. I remember using the GunHillRoad station as a kid with tracks on the lower level still in place I had a great aunt that live in the area on Bronx Blvd. I remember always looking forward to trying to check out the old platform. 

Yep. The original line from Bronx Park to Manhattan opened either in the late 1800s or around 1900, before the IRT subway was fully constructed and opened. The northern segment from Fordham Rd to Gun Hill Rd was built at or around the time the upper White Plains Rd line was built and thus could support the heavier subway cars without issues.

 

As for your other point, the plan for 3rd Avenue was always to cut the line back to 149 Street and eventually eliminate it altogether, replacing the elevated with subway service. While it would've made some sense to tie the remnant to the Pelham line, it would've required a lot of construction for a line that was not likely to stick around for long, especially when the line actually was cut back in '55.

[MysteriousBtrain]

What would a 3rd Ave Bronx line connect to? If not the SAS?

In my world the El would run on Brook Avenue after 161st Street and go into a portal between 156th Street and Westchester Avenue, then continuing under Brook Ave and connect to the Pelham local tracks at 3 Av-138 St.

[Lawrence St]

White Plains Rd, Dyre, and Pelham

[RailRunRob]

In my world the El would run on Brook Avenue after 161st Street and go into a portal between 156th Street and Westchester Avenue, then continuing under Brook Ave and connect to the Pelham local tracks at 3 Av-138 St.

 

White Plains Rd, Dyre, and Pelham

So how do you spread service? You can't really add any more trains due to capacity on the Lex and 7th so your taking trains from somewhere else?

Are you spitting Lex Local service? half via 3rd the rest to PBP? So you'd have to kill express Pelham service?. Even in what I was saying about the connection that could have been in 1955 with the ole El I counted on having to take something away to balance service out.  What are your plans to do that without the extra bandwidth of the SAS? With these gains who losses something?

Edited March 23, 2017 by RailRunRob

[MassTransitHonchkrow]

Thought exercise: what if we rerouted the via 63rd St?

How about swapping the for the ? The can go local to 71 Ave and then local to Parsons & the to Ditmars Boulevard. Then the can skip the local stops.

 

I make the suggestion because the and manifest is exceedingly long. I also nominate the as Astoria Express.

 

Is this feasible? I know it won't happen though. Any conductor worth their time knows it takes too (F)n long to cross Queens Boulevard by rail.

 

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[Lance]

Pre-05/1987 wants its schedule back.

[RR503]

How about swapping the for the ? The can go local to 71 Ave and then local to Parsons & the to Ditmars Boulevard. Then the can skip the local stops.

 

I make the suggestion because the and manifest is exceedingly long. I also nominate the as Astoria Express.

 

Is this feasible? I know it won't happen though. Any conductor worth their time knows it takes too (F)n long to cross Queens Boulevard by rail.

 

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No for 3 reasons.

1. The R would lose access to Jamaica yard, requiring deadhead moves to/from CI.

2. You'd be cutting service on 60th Street -- a much busier corridor than 63rd.

3. You'd be adding a merge to the F and N lines.

[MassTransitHonchkrow]

No for 3 reasons.

1. The R would lose access to Jamaica yard, requiring deadhead moves to/from CI.

2. You'd be cutting service on 60th Street -- a much busier corridor than 63rd.

3. You'd be adding a merge to the F and N lines.

You have a point.

 

Another suggestion, slightly muted:

 

Bring the back to Queens Boulevard as an eight car at the expense of shortening cars to eight, and cutting the back to its roost in the West End.

Double down on service along 6 Ave or funnel part time service in the (M)'s place, since the routes exit Manhattan the same way.

 

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[Lance]

1) Myrtle Ave is giving you the evil eye right about now for that idea.

 

2) Car equipment shortages are not the reason why the doesn't run up Queens Blvd anymore. Relaying problems at 71 Avenue with the and , along with the demand for Queens - Manhattan service are the concerns. Also, your proposed car assignments make no sense. The already runs eight-car trains exclusively and there are not enough eight-car 160s around to run on the .

 

3) How are you doubling down on the and service when the Queens Blvd express tracks already at capacity?

[paulrivera]

What do you guys think of moving one or two of the intervals out of Nereid Avenue and sending them to Woodlawn and label them as trains instead?

 

I know in the morning they're probably needed on WPR but they won't really be missed in the evening, especially since the trains aren't even dispatched properly in the PM.

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

What do you guys think of moving one or two of the intervals out of Nereid Avenue and sending them to Woodlawn and label them as trains instead?

 

I know in the morning they're probably needed on WPR but they won't really be missed in the evening, especially since the trains aren't even dispatched properly in the PM.

If you're going to get rid of any Nereid Av trips it would be best to switch them to Dyre Av trips. Ridership on Dyre Av trips is severely underestimated and during AM Rush trains are already SRO in most cars approaching Gun Hill Road. One thing I'm adamant about when it comes to the is to get more trips running to/from Dyre Av.

[GreatOne2k]

Some midday trains now run express to Gun Hill Road

[Lawrence St]

1) Myrtle Ave is giving you the evil eye right about now for that idea.

 

 

2) Car equipment shortages are not the reason why the doesn't run up Queens Blvd anymore. Relaying problems at 71 Avenue with the and , along with the demand for Queens - Manhattan service are the concerns. Also, your proposed car assignments make no sense. The already runs eight-car trains exclusively and there are not enough eight-car 160s around to run on the .

 

3) How are you doubling down on the and service when the Queens Blvd express tracks already at capacity?

I thought the used 10 cars since it shares cars with the ?

If you're going to get rid of any Nereid Av trips it would be best to switch them to Dyre Av trips. Ridership on Dyre Av trips is severely underestimated and during AM Rush trains are already SRO in most cars approaching Gun Hill Road. One thing I'm adamant about when it comes to the is to get more trips running to/from Dyre Av.

Problem with that is that Dyre has more spaced out stations then any other place in the system. Your right, Dyre is unserved most of the time, but that's due to the constant switching they have to do at East 180th Street.

 

But, for late night 5 service, wouldn't it be smarter to utilize the old East 180th St platforms instead of the new one so the dosent interfere with the ?

[Around the Horn]

I thought the used 10 cars since it shares cars with the ?

 

 

8 75 footers