Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[drekroid]

Hi Lance,

 

Thanks for the replies....

 

On the IRT side of things, sending the 3 as the only 7th Avenue line to Brooklyn would overwhelm that line. That and you'd have a serious overcrowding problem on the platforms at Franklin Av and Nevins St with people transferring between the 3 and Lexington Avenue trains. 

 

I proposed 15 tph for the   thinking that would be enough. Currently, the  +   offer about 15 - 18 tph combined. If more trains are needed, they could be easily added, since my proposed 2 (7½ tph) +  3 (15 tph) is only 22½ tph for 7 Av Exp, there is some room for a few extra 3's at the busiest times.

 

Regarding the overcrowded platforms issues, I would assume that such transfers are expected, since many IRT stations in Brooklyn are served by either a 7th Av line or a Lex line, and that the transfer stations you mentioned are designed to accommodate these transfers. 

 

Concerning the 2, you're over-saturating the South Ferry branch of 7th Avenue by sending both it and the 1 down there. That section hardly needs two lines. 

 

I was thinking the   would use the lower platforms (currently under repair, I know), and the   would terminate at Rector St and would use the South Ferry loop like the   uses the City Hall loop.

 

By making the C another 8th Avenue express, you've left the B as the sole local along Central Park West and the E as the 8th Avenue local from 50 St to the World Trade Center. Yes, you've increased the TPH on the B, but you've also turned a one-seat local to local ride between CPW and lower 8th Avenue into a three-seat one. 

 

If by lower 8th Av, you mean south of 4th, then you missed the fact that my proposed   terminates at World Trade Centre.  >   would do the trick. Or there's also the   as an alternative 1-seat ride. As for the , my proposed  also runs on 8 Av local, which adds more service from Penn to Midtown east -- a corridor that currently needs more service. 

 

 

I see you've also flipped the E and F lines (again, novel) and all that'd do is wreck the interlocking at W 4 St and delay all trains running through that station since you'd have trains crossing in front of each other to get to their destinations.

 

There's actually no cross-overs required!

 

Express trains would pass through as they do now.  +  would go from 8th Av local to Culver and Christie, and   would go from 6 Av Local down to WTC. If you look at the track diagrams, you'll see that this is all possible without cross-overs. The   +   would use the express tracks at W 4 St to access the bridge. D would switch to/from local tracks using the interlocking north of W 4 St. 

 

There are a couple more things I'd talk about (like why you took the R off Queens Blvd and sent it back to Astoria, how A trains would terminate at Chambers St or the C at 59 St and how Broadway would work with the R as the only local), but these were the most interesting changes I had to address.

 

The track diagram shows a third service track north of Chambers that could be used to turn-around 3   trains per hour during late nights. For the  , I meant that late night service would operate between Norwood and Lefferts, running express from 145 St to Columbus Circle, and local elsewhere. 

 

For QBL, I proposed local services that matches the express services (  local /   exp +  local /   exp) so that local services could be used as an easy alternative to the congested-running-at-maximum-capacity express services. Currently,   +   offers only 17½ tph at rush hour, where my proposed D + M offers 21 tph. Express tracks would still serve 30 tph.

 

For Broadway local service, my proposed 15 tph for  (10 tph midday) would be more consistent then the current   +   service (currently running at 8 tph + 10 tph at rush hour). And south of Canal, there's only the R anyway. 

 

Thanks for comments. I'm glad you took the time to consider these ideas.

 

 

 

 

[Union Tpke]

 

IND

 

Inwood/207 St to Lefferts Blvd & Mott Av

Operates express from 168 St to Euclid Av

Late nights: Operates between Chambers St and Mott Av only (express to Euclid Av)

   ( provides late night service to Inwood/207 St, provides late night service to Lefferts Blvd)

Rush Hour: 12 tph (every 5 minutes), Midday: 8 tph (every 7½ minutes)

 

168 St to Stillwell Av (via Brighton)

Operates express on Sixth Av and Brighton Line

Late nights: Operates fully local, between Inwood/207 St and Stillwell Av

Rush Hour: 12 tph (every 5 minutes), Midday: 7½ tph (every 8 minutes)

 

Norwood/205 St to Euclid Av (Eighth Av Express)

Operates express between 145 St and Chambers St

Late nights: Operates locally between Columbus Circle and Lefferts Blvd

Rush Hour: 12 tph (every 5 minutes), Midday: 8 tph (every 7½ minutes)

 

Forest Hills/71 Av to Brighton Beach (Sixth Av Local)

Operates fully local

Late nights: Does not operate

Rush Hour: 12 tph (every 5 minutes), Midday: 7½ tph (every 8 minutes)

 

Jamaica Center to Stillwell Av (via Culver)

Operates express on Queens Blvd

Late nights: Operates fully local

Rush Hour: 12 tph (every 5 minutes), Midday: 7½ tph (every 8 minutes)

 

Jamaica/179 St to World Trade Center (Sixth Av Local)

Operates express between Queensbridge/21 St and Forest Hills/71 Av at all times

Rush Hour: 18 tph (every 3 to 4 minutes), Midday: 7½ tph (every 8 minutes)

 

Court Square to Church Av

Rush Hour: 9 tph (every 6 to 7 minutes), Midday: 7½ tph (every 8 minutes)

 

Broad Channel to Rockaway Park

Rush Hour: 6 tph (every 10 minutes), Midday: 4 tph (every 15 minutes)

 

 

---

 

BMT

 

Jamaica Center to Broad St

Rush Hour:

   operates express in the peak direction between Broadway Jct and Marcy Av (9 tph)

    operates between Broad St and Broadway Jct only (9 tph)

Rush Hour: 18 tph (every 3 to 4 minutes), Midday: 7½ tph (every 8 minutes)

 

 Forest Hills/71 Av to Metropolitan Av (Eighth Av Local)

Late nights: Operates between Essex St and Metropolitan Av only

Rush Hour: 9 tph (every 6 to 7 minutes), Midday: 7½ tph (every 8 minutes)

 

96 St/2 Av to Stillwell Av (via Bridge, Sea Beach)

Operates express on Broadway and Fourth Avenue

Late nights: Operates as shuttle service in Brooklyn only, between 36th St and Stillwell Av

Rush Hour: 9 tph (every 6 to 7 minutes), Midday: 6 tph (every 10 minutes)

 

96 St/2 Av to Stillwell Av (via Bridge, West End)

Operates express on Broadway and Fourth Avenue

Late nights: Operates fully local (via Bridge)

Rush Hour: 9 tph (every 6 to 7 minutes), Midday: 6 tph (every 10 minutes)

 

&   Combined TPH (trunk corridor between 96 St/2 Av and Brooklyn 36 St/4 Av):

Rush Hour: 18 tph (every 3 to 4 minutes), Midday: 12 tph (every 5 minutes)

 

Ditmars Blvd to Bay Ridge/95 St (via Tunnel)

Operates at all times

Rush Hour: 15 tph (every 4 minutes), Midday: 10 tph (every 6 minutes)

 

NOTE:

would terminate at 57 St/7 Av (or 63 St) until completion of Second Avenue Line.

The late night A service would be annoying for people in Brooklyn and the Rockaways having to take two trains.

For the C to turn at 59 St during late nights it would have to use the layups at 72 St.

Having only 6 Av services on the Brighton Line, would cause Broadway riders to lose a direct ride and force them to switch trains.

Queens Blvd NEEDS A BROADWAY SERVICE! It would be really annoying to have no broadway service. Making it harder to commute to Lower Manhattan and parts of Brooklyn.

Queens Blvd does not need two 8th Avenue services, switch one with a Broadway service.

Why are you messing with the E and F headways during Rush Hours, they are good the way they are at 15/15.

Having the N operate as a shuttle during late nights as a shuttle is not a good idea. The sea beach should have direct service to Manhattan during late nights

Edited March 2, 2014 by Union Tpke

[drekroid]

The late night A service would be annoying for people in Brooklyn and the Rockaways having to take two trains.

For the C to turn at 59 St during late nights it would have to use the layups at 72 St.

Having only 6 Av services on the Brighton Line, would cause Broadway riders to lose a direct ride and force them to switch trains.

Queens Blvd NEEDS A BROADWAY SERVICE! It would be really annoying to have no broadway service. Making it harder to commute to Lower Manhattan and parts of Brooklyn.

Queens Blvd does not need two 8th Avenue services, switch one with a Broadway service.

Why are you messing with the E and F headways during Rush Hours, they are good the way they are at 15/15.

Having the N operate as a shuttle during late nights as a shuttle is not a good idea. The sea beach should have direct service to Manhattan during late nights

 

Clarification: Late night   would operate between Norwood and Lefferts, express from 145 St to Columbus Circle, local elsewhere

 

So Brooklynites would have nothing to complain about, since   would offer the 1-seat service. For the Rockaways, an express service to/from the Fulton Transit Center might be quite appealing, compared to the local service that is offered currently (during late nights).

 

Concerning   , there's currently 12 trips to Jamaica Center, and 18 trips to 179 St. The difference is that, currently, there are 3  trips (per hour) diverted to 179 St. My proposal is less confusing in this regard. With the additional proposed  local service, there would still be an overall 21 tph between 8 Av and the QBL.

 

Concerning late night shuttles, why is it a good idea for the  ,  ,  , and   to have late night shuttles, but not the  Sea Beach? My proposal actually improves the late night situation: Dyre Rd to Times Sq via the  ; Lefferts served by ;   extended to Essex; and  running at all times. Also, the proposed /   are very similar routes, and it would be simple to have timed transfers for the shuttle service.    

[tvega961]

Extend limited to Euclid via Local Rush Hours only to reduce crowding on the

[cl94]

There's actually no cross-overs required!

 

 

Express trains would pass through as they do now.  +  would go from 8th Av local to Culver and Christie, and   would go from 6 Av Local down to WTC. If you look at the track diagrams, you'll see that this is all possible without cross-overs. The   +   would use the express tracks at W 4 St to access the bridge. D would switch to/from local tracks using the interlocking north of W 4 St. 

 

Everything else has been answered by other people, so I won't overcriticize. This has not. It would screw up W4 interlocking. The would have to switch from 6th to 8th and the would switch the other way. It would work if and only if there were no through locals. Personally, I think such an idea is asinine, as your plan also eliminates the through local north of 50th Street, which again requires a transfer. The IND in lower and midtown Manhattan was designed so people would have no reason to switch between the local and express. People would be forced to transfer to remain on the same trunk line.

[NY1635]

F: Runs Express from Jamaica-179th Street to 21st Queensbridge on Weekdays. On Weeknights and Weekends, The F will run local between Jamaica-179th Street and 75th Avenue.

M/R: Extended from 71st-Continental Avenue to Jamaica-179th Street during Weekdays. The R will terminate at 71st-Continental on Weeknights and Weekends.

[Lance]

Hi Lance,

 

Thanks for the replies....

 

 

1) I proposed 15 tph for the   thinking that would be enough. Currently, the  +   offer about 15 - 18 tph combined. If more trains are needed, they could be easily added, since my proposed 2 (7½ tph) +  3 (15 tph) is only 22½ tph for 7 Av Exp, there is some room for a few extra 3's at the busiest times.

 

2) Regarding the overcrowded platforms issues, I would assume that such transfers are expected, since many IRT stations in Brooklyn are served by either a 7th Av line or a Lex line, and that the transfer stations you mentioned are designed to accommodate these transfers. 

 

 

 

3) I was thinking the   would use the lower platforms (currently under repair, I know), and the   would terminate at Rector St and would use the South Ferry loop like the   uses the City Hall loop.

 

 

4) If by lower 8th Av, you mean south of 4th, then you missed the fact that my proposed   terminates at World Trade Centre.  >   would do the trick. Or there's also the   as an alternative 1-seat ride. As for the , my proposed  also runs on 8 Av local, which adds more service from Penn to Midtown east -- a corridor that currently needs more service. 

 

 

 

5) There's actually no cross-overs required!

 

6) Express trains would pass through as they do now.  +  would go from 8th Av local to Culver and Christie, and   would go from 6 Av Local down to WTC. If you look at the track diagrams, you'll see that this is all possible without cross-overs. The   +   would use the express tracks at W 4 St to access the bridge. D would switch to/from local tracks using the interlocking north of W 4 St. 

 

 

7) The track diagram shows a third service track north of Chambers that could be used to turn-around 3   trains per hour during late nights. For the  , I meant that late night service would operate between Norwood and Lefferts, running express from 145 St to Columbus Circle, and local elsewhere. 

 

8) For QBL, I proposed local services that matches the express services (  local /   exp +  local /   exp) so that local services could be used as an easy alternative to the congested-running-at-maximum-capacity express services. Currently,   +   offers only 17½ tph at rush hour, where my proposed D + M offers 21 tph. Express tracks would still serve 30 tph.

 

9) For Broadway local service, my proposed 15 tph for  (10 tph midday) would be more consistent then the current   +   service (currently running at 8 tph + 10 tph at rush hour). And south of Canal, there's only the R anyway. 

 

Thanks for comments. I'm glad you took the time to consider these ideas.

1,2) The problem is, you have the 3 as the only 7th Avenue line going not only to Brooklyn, but the only line that goes to Flatbush as well. Yes, you've bumped up the number of trains serving the line, but you've also removed the Lexington Av-Flatbush direct service by pulling the 5 off the Nostrand Ave line. That's what I meant by my statement of creating crowing issues at Franklin and Nevins. It seems you've completely disregarded the reason why 5 train service to Flatbush was expanding into the midday hours back in '08.

 

3) That still doesn't address the issue of over-serving a line that really does not need that much service. Cortlandt St (whenever it opens) and Rector St do not need two lines. Not at the expense of Brooklyn service.

 

4) Actually, I meant south of 50 St. Sorry for the confusion. I was trying to distinguish between Central Park West and 8th Ave proper. However, that doesn't negate my earlier statement of how you've removed local stop-to-local stop direct service between stations north and south of 59 St-Columbus Circle.

 

5,6) cl94 has already touched upon why it won't work, so I'll leave it there.

 

7) Got it. I misread both the track maps and your idea on the C line, but that raises another question. Does Fulton Street (Brooklyn) need express service in the middle of the night?

 

8) The present service levels are the result of several issues, first and foremost budgetary ones, as well as merging issues on other lines. You've also neglected to see why the R is on Queens Blvd in the first place and why Queens Blvd is configured as it is. With the E, F, M and R serving that trunk line, you have direct connections to 6th Ave, 8th Ave and Broadway. By removing that Broadway connection, you'd have riders transferring to get to stops along the Broadway line.

 

9) South of Canal St, you've got the nearby Lexington Avenue line, and even then that's not enough based on the calls for the return of the W line. North of Canal St, especially as the Broadway line heads west away from Lexington, it's pretty much on its own. Making the R via Montague as the only local along the line will once again force riders to transfer to other lines to avoid meandering through lower Manhattan to get to Brooklyn.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Lance

[cl94]

8) The present service levels are the result of several issues, first and foremost budgetary ones, as well as merging issues on other lines. You've also neglected to see why the R is on Queens Blvd in the first place and why Queens Blvd is configured as it is. With the E, F, M and R serving that trunk line, you have direct connections to 6th Ave, 8th Ave and Broadway. By removing that Broadway connection, you'd have riders transferring to get to stops along the Broadway line.

 

If the wasn't on QBL, riders from Queens are suddenly limited in options to Broadway. QBL riders would have to:

1. Transfer to the at Roosevelt and from the to the (or whatever line he has going to Astoria) at QBP.

2. Backtrack on the to Archer Avenue, transfer to the , transferring to the at Canal.

3. Transfer at 42nd or 34th (neither of which can take more transfer traffic).

 

The point of the 60th Street Connection was to simplify rides to Broadway, inreasing the number of trains on QBL while keeping the in line with ridership.

[RollOver]

Part of the many reasons why the runs on QBL instead of Astoria is so it can get direct yard access to Jamaica. By running the between Astoria and Bay Ridge, there is no decent place to store any of its trains until you get to Canal Street. That also knocks out your proposal of sending the to/from Astoria, drekroid.

[cl94]

Part of the many reasons why the runs on QBL instead of Astoria is so it can get direct yard access to Jamaica. By running the between Astoria and Bay Ridge, there is no decent place to store any of its trains until you get to Canal Street. That also knocks out your proposal of sending the to/from Astoria, drekroid.

 

Yard access is why the was moved onto QBL in the first place. It costs a fortune to run sets light from CI to 4th Avenue, which is what was done when the ran to Astoria. At the time, the was the only non-shuttle route without direct yard acces along the line (nowadays the has that honor, but it's a glorified shuttle). The BMT mindset may have been to run stuff from Bay Ridge to Jamaica via Nassau, but the decision to put both terminals far from yards was made a century ago.

[FlushingExpress]

- Would be hard to given that the middle track was never built for express service in the first place...

- Will not work, just as last time. Nobody wants the .

- Leffers people want the express, not the local. Multiple thread have been locked because they kept bringing up this subject.

- This actually seems like a good idea. It used to work before, it could work again.

 

The would have been more successful if it ran as a peak direction express between 96th Street and 145th Streets and/or 242nd Street and Dyckman Street. Lots of middle class upper Manhattan and Bronx residents who work in Midtown or Lower Manhattan would have taken it. It was the complaints of high class Upper West Side residents that doomed the service. Some trains run nonstop after 167th Street and terminate at Burnside Avenue right now, so implementing a fully weekday express service would not be too hard. It is funny how Lefferts Boulevard riders would rather wait 20 minutes for an express than 10 minutes for a local. They do not seem to realize that the increased waiting time cancels out any time an express train saves. Extending the to Lefferts and rerouting all trains to the Rockaways would benefit those on both lines with shorter waiting time, not to mention it would be quite easy to transfer between a local and express at Rockaway Boulevard. The running express in Manhattan would eliminate the Prince Street switching and keep trains more consistent since the and would run on the same track from the Manhattan Bridge to Astoria all the way instead of merging, separating for a short time, and remerging, which causes severe irregularity. Nobody rides the much since it is fully local, so it can handle the Broadway Local north of Canal Street by itself.

[RollOver]

The five local stations north of Canal Street have higher ridership. The Broadway Express only saves you a minute or two. So what if the runs local in Manhattan with the ? All three Broadway lines each usually run 6 tph during the off-peak anyway, so the delays aren't as problematic as they are during rush hours when all three Broadway lines each usually run 9 tph. Instead of gripping about it, why not look for positives first?

 

The only reason why the runs express between Chinatown and Sunset Park is so that crowding remains alleviated for long-distance riders traveling between Midtown Manhattan and South Brooklyn. Hence why many riders heading northbound transfer to the express at 59th and 36th Streets every morning (and reverse in the afternoon and evening). Hence why the train is one of the fewer lines where you can almost always get a seat? Simply put, because it is basically a local counterpart and feeder line.

 

Again and again, is the Rockaway Park Shuttle so overcrowded (outside of the summer) to support a full-length 24/7 train? The current service pattern/levels for the and its shorten version does is fine, because of loads. There are other alternative transportation in the peninsula anyway.

[Lance]

A couple of things and I'm done:

 

9 express service won't work because it would get stuck behind a 1 local. It still has to merge twice as it runs through the two-tracked sections and will undoubtedly slow it down, thus negating any time savings.

 

The 4 express runs to Burnside Av are there so the trains can go out of service and return to the yard. Also, Jerome is not Pelham. It's not long enough to run a service similar to the .

 

As for the claim that no one rides the R because it's local, the ridership numbers for the Broadway local stops seem to say otherwise. Unless the number of R trains is significantly increased, it cannot handle the Broadway local by itself.

[Fresh Pond]

Had an half-assed idea of an skip-stop, called it , since it was the closest unoccupied letter. Every other L would become a K in the peak direction, then goes back the other way as an L. Stops are...

 

8 Av-14 St: K/L

6Av: K/L

Union Sq: K/L

3 Av: K/L

1 Av: K/L

Bedford Av: K/L

Lorimer St: K/L

Graham Av: K

Grand St: L

Montrose Av: K

Morgan Av: L

Jefferson St: K

DeKalb Av: L

Myrtle-Wyckoff: K/L

Halsey St: K

Bushwick-Aberdeen: L

Broadway Junction: K/L

Atlantic Av: K (LIRR transfers to/from is very very low, doesn't need both trains)

Sutter Av: L

Livonia Av: K

New Lots Av: K/L

East 105 St: L

Rockaway Pkwy: K/L

[46Dover]

Yard access is why the was moved onto QBL in the first place. It costs a fortune to run sets light from CI to 4th Avenue, which is what was done when the ran to Astoria. At the time, the was the only non-shuttle route without direct yard acces along the line (nowadays the has that honor, but it's a glorified shuttle). The BMT mindset may have been to run stuff from Bay Ridge to Jamaica via Nassau, but the decision to put both terminals far from yards was made a century ago.

Along with the Franklin Shuttle. My goodness, what a light move.....or the Times Square for that matter....

[cl94]

Along with the Franklin Shuttle. My goodness, what a light move.....or the Times Square for that matter....

 

Hence why I specified non-shuttle. The Franklin has a spare train at the SB shuttle track at Prospect Park and one more train stored at CI. At night, one of the 2 trains operating at any time is stored on the express tracks south of the station. As such, yard moves are only necessary for maintenance and washing. The Times Square is another story altogether, but again, trains can just lay up on their track as the three tracks run independently and be run out to 207th, 239th, or Westchester at night for cleaning or Livonia for maintenance.

[Quill Depot]

Eh, no point in extending the night to/from Bowling Green. The already runs local entirely at night anyway. That single one seat ride to/from Fulton Street, Wall Street and Bowling Green still exists.

It would help people greatly, especially those staying only in Manhattan, as there would twice as many trains. I don't think you see the 20 minute wait between trains that comes with late-night service.

[bobtehpanda]

It would help people greatly, especially those staying only in Manhattan, as there would twice as many trains. I don't think you see the 20 minute wait between trains that comes with late-night service.

 

I mean, it would help, but the question is whether from a ridership and cost perspective if it is worth it.

 

In a perfect world, the MTA would be able to maintain round-the-clock 10 or 6 minute service. We can't afford that. Twice as many trains = twice the cost, and for what?

[Jsunflyguy]

One wonders how the IRT maintained that level of service early on.

 

In any event it will probably add 12 minutes to cover the trip to BG and back. Which would require an extra train and crew...that's not exactly paying twice, lest we realize the Lex Service is duplicated late nights and cut one of those?

[RollOver]

It would help people greatly, especially those staying only in Manhattan, as there would twice as many trains. I don't think you see the 20 minute wait between trains that comes with late-night service.

 

Umm...excuse me? I been knew that all lines run 3 tph every night. And as Bob said, is it really worth wasting cash on something really unnecessary?

[Quill Depot]

Umm...excuse me? I been knew that all lines run 3 tph every night. And as Bob said, is it really worth wasting cash on something really unnecessary?

 

I don't see much wasting cash improving service at a large transfer. Seems worth it for the extra few stops.

[Union Tpke]

Had an half-assed idea of an skip-stop, called it , since it was the closest unoccupied letter. Every other L would become a K in the peak direction, then goes back the other way as an L. Stops are...

8 Av-14 St: K/L

6Av: K/L

Union Sq: K/L

3 Av: K/L

1 Av: K/L

Bedford Av: K/L

Lorimer St: K/L

Graham Av: K

Grand St: L

Montrose Av: K

Morgan Av: L

Jefferson St: K

DeKalb Av: L

Myrtle-Wyckoff: K/L

Halsey St: K

Bushwick-Aberdeen: L

Broadway Junction: K/L

Atlantic Av: K (LIRR transfers to/from is very very low, doesn't need both trains)

Sutter Av: L

Livonia Av: K

New Lots Av: K/L

East 105 St: L

Rockaway Pkwy: K/L

There was a proposal for a K/L skip stop service. On the R110B rollsigns there is a grey K bullet for this service. There is more info on Eric B's website under line by line history.

Note: I am not advertising for his site

 

 

Using Tapatalk

 

 

[Jsunflyguy]

There was also an Orange A to Coney Island I believe...I have no clue why the MTA was serious about that idea. Of all the ideas I've seen that would have to be the hardest sell and the strangest idea ever.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Jsunflyguy

[Union Tpke]

There was also an Orange A to Coney Island I believe...I have no clue why the MTA was serious about that idea. Of all the ideas I've seen that would have to be the hardest sell and the strangest idea ever.

I know

 

 

 

Using Tapatalk

 

 

[Eric B]

That was the super-draconian '91 service cut proposal where they wanted to streamline to the bare minimum, eliminating the and having the go to 21St. St. all times except midnights. At first, the Q (on 6th Av) would be extended to 207th and the would become local to 168th. Then when people protested that, because the "A" is supposed to be the express (Like Duke Ellington said), then they basically renamed the 6th Ave. Q into a 6th Ave. A, and the would have replaced it on 8th Ave. from 34th St. to Queens. But that didn't fly either, and eventually, they stopped trying to cut back like that.