M-8 Discussion

[HomeBall]

Awesome, but is there any plans to make the M8's also run on the LIRR for certain extra services outta Penn or no?

 

 

 

So, I guess it can't take the SLE either...

 

The M8's are for Metro North railroad only, not LIRR. However, the M8's are designed to run on under Amtrak's wire as well. So the adjustable 3rd rail shoes seem unnecessary. M8's will be used in regular Metro-North service for now, they have not been tested on the SLE or any other non-MNR portions of the NEC. The plan is to have equipment capable of running on the Shore Line and be able to go into NYP, IF that kind of service is ever attempted. Note that the M8's are will be the only kind of passenger equipment that will be able to operate into both GCT and NYP without modification.

[St Louis Car 09]

 

I am of the opinion that their problems were overblown by the media, coupled with how long it takes a vehicle to travel 4,000 miles.

I concur.The local newspaper the stamford advocate had the M8 in the papers everyday as well as the failing M2.The media is blowing it out of proportion to put pressure on putting the cars to service for the spoiled CT masses.

[Rutgers Tube]

Awesome, but is there any plans to make the M8's also run on the LIRR for certain extra services outta Penn or no?

 

 

 

So, I guess it can't take the SLE either...

 

 

The MNRR and LIRR use 2 different types of third rail...so no it wouldn't run on the LIRR...

 

 

This topic has already been addressed in this thread and others and has been discussed on other forum sites as well, ad nauseam. I'm going to attempt to clarify this so as to avoid any further confusion based on my knowledge and understanding, as conveyed from reputable sources. Without really delving into the in's and out's and if's and it's and why's and why not's, the M8's will be equipped for operation on ALL of the following systems:

 

1. Metro-North's 12.5 kVAC/60 Hz overhead catenary and 650 VDC under-running third rail;

2. Amtrak's NEC Shore Line 25 kVAC/60 Hz overhead catenary east of New Haven where SLE operates (CDOT is a 65% owner of the M8 order and there has been increased demand for augmented and expanded SLE service' However, there have not been any promises about the M8's in SLE service. Additionally, plans have called for the ACSES and 25 kV testing to be performed on this trackage);

3. LIRR's 750 VDC over-running third rail. While the LIRR and Metro-North systems do possess differences in clearance between the third and running rails, it is my understanding that the M8's will be equipped with a very unique variable-position third rail shoe. All changes between power delivery systems can be performed by the locomotive engineer EN ROUTE, ON THE FLY.

 

The M8's will NOT be able to operate on Amtrak's NEC NY Terminal District over the Hell Gate between just east of HAROLD and just east of GATE, which is powered by an overhead catenary system of 12 kVAC/25 Hz.

 

I'll abandon the topic of the M8's to address these a few other FAQ's about issues that have been discussed numerous times:

 

Plans to install a third rail system between HAROLD and GATE have been in the works for a while, but I don't believe that the funding stage has even been reached yet. When (and if) third rail installation through this 1.2-mile (it may be 1.4 mi) stretch occurs, it would most likely be over-running, since it would be tied into the LIRR system at HAROLD. Personally, I cannot see any reason at all that would necessitate M8 equipment to need to run on LIRR trackage other than Connecticut sinking into the ocean and New York State buying the cars off of eBay. CDOT and NYSDOT never have nor ever will have any mutual goals of taxpayers' interests and benefits, and these cars aren't like a video game that you bring over your boy's house and let him borrow from you while you borrow the porn flick that he found buried deep in the bottom drawer of his father's bureau, and it's not as if CDOT will ever bring 60 M8's over Penn's or Jay's houses and say "Okay, I'll let you borrow these until next Friday, but I need them back before my mom notices."

 

Outside of Penn Station, there is no reason for Metro-North to offer service into LIRR territory, and there really won't be any reason once the ESA project has been completed. NH-NYP service was a reality during the New Haven Railroad days, as the FL-9's had dual-collection third rail shoes. Metro-North service into Penn is entirely dependent upon the results of ESA in order to justify and efficiently respond to an increase in the already massive rail volume and associated issues that Penn already sees (though part-time NJT reroutes should provide some relief). Last year's "Train to the Game" program showed that limited, off-peak service is possible, given the right scheduling, equipment and employee qualifying.

 

 

The M8's are for Metro North railroad only, not LIRR. However, the M8's are designed to run on under Amtrak's wire as well. So the adjustable 3rd rail shoes seem unnecessary. M8's will be used in regular Metro-North service for now, they have not been tested on the SLE or any other non-MNR portions of the NEC. The plan is to have equipment capable of running on the Shore Line and be able to go into NYP, IF that kind of service is ever attempted. Note that the M8's are will be the only kind of passenger equipment that will be able to operate into both GCT and NYP without modification.

 

You'd know better than I would, but I've read and been told many times that the two main reasons that the M8's cannot operate using the current 12 kV/25 Hz catenary system between GATE and HAROLD are the 25 Hz transformers not being installed due to weight issues and lack of space and the change to a 25 kV/60 Hz system being a lot more costly than installing a third rail. I did hear something about NEC-operational compatibility as an option that was ordered for a some of the M8's, but this was a long time ago, and I've since heard only third rail talk. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. Thanks.

[Amtrak7]

According to Railroad.NET, there is a chance of an M8 in revenue service on Saturday, but Monday is supposed to be the "big debut".

[Vistausss]

@Rutgers Tube: But why would it run on the LIRR? The LIRR has relatively new DE-30, M7 and M3 and even the older M3-fleet is in pretty good shape. MNRR on the other hand has aging fleet with lots of problems. Plus, the LIRR already gets M9's to replace the M3's before 2015. So why the heck would the LIRR ever need to run an M8?

[Nova RTS 9147]

@Rutgers Tube: But why would it run on the LIRR? The LIRR has relatively new DE-30, M7 and M3 and even the older M3-fleet is in pretty good shape. MNRR on the other hand has aging fleet with lots of problems. Plus, the LIRR already gets M9's to replace the M3's before 2015. So why the heck would the LIRR ever need to run an M8?

 

His entire point was that the only place the M8s would run on LIRR territory is Penn Station. Anything East of where Amtrak trains split from LIRR (Sunnyside Yard for the sake of the argument) will never see a M8.

[Rutgers Tube]

His entire point was that the only place the M8s would run on LIRR territory is Penn Station. Anything East of where Amtrak trains split from LIRR (Sunnyside Yard for the sake of the argument) will never see a M8.

 

You'd go far as a White House spokesman.

[HomeBall]

 

You'd know better than I would, but I've read and been told many times that the two main reasons that the M8's cannot operate using the current 12 kV/25 Hz catenary system between GATE and HAROLD are the 25 Hz transformers not being installed due to weight issues and lack of space and the change to a 25 kV/60 Hz system being a lot more costly than installing a third rail. I did hear something about NEC-operational compatibility as an option that was ordered for a some of the M8's, but this was a long time ago, and I've since heard only third rail talk. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. Thanks.

 

Actually you're right, checking some notes, I made some switcheroos by accident. The original plan was to operate under the 3 voltages, but now only 2, due to weight constraints. However, the adjustable third rail is not installed on the M8's so it hasn't been tested yet. It would require Amtrak to extend the third rail up to Gate to operate into NYP. Also the M8's have not been tested under 25K/60hz, or ACSES as of yet.

[Rutgers Tube]

Actually you're right, checking some notes, I made some switcheroos by accident. The original plan was to operate under the 3 voltages, but now only 2, due to weight constraints. However, the adjustable third rail is not installed on the M8's so it hasn't been tested yet. It would require Amtrak to extend the third rail up to Gate to operate into NYP. Also the M8's have not been tested under 25K/60hz, or ACSES as of yet.

 

Thank you for following up on that. I'm aware that neither of the 25 kV/60 Hz and ACSES testing had yet to begin, which makes sense considering that the neither of those are currently used on the New Haven Line, the only trackage that the M8's have been promised and are absolutely certain to serve.

 

Homeball: Any idea when Amtrak plans on expanding use of ACSES throughout the entire NEC, and if Metro-North will adopt that system, and do you know if current freight trains use ACSES in MN territory? Also, have you heard of any advances beyond "plans" and "talks" for the third rail extension?

[HomeBall]

Well actually the M8 ADU(aspect display unit) doesn't conform to the NORAC signal aspects. Where as the BL20's ACSES system doesn't conform(figure that). So before they could even be tested there would have to be a modification to the M8's. But they're not in a rush for these things to be tested on the non-MNR portions of the NEC, with all the problems that have been happening this winter on MNR.

 

There were talks of MNR adopting ACSES on the New Haven line, but those talks probably won't come up again until the M8 order is filled and most of the older New Haven EMU's are retired. No sense in modifying equipment that's soon to be scrapped.

 

As far as freight trains on MNR property, they have to be compatible with MNR's cab signals. The ACSES system is backwards compatible with the older 4 aspects systems so freight trains don't need full ACSES capabilities over the NEC. Plus, I'm pretty sure the portions of the NEC adjacent to MNR territory aren't ACSES equipped anyway.

 

My guess is we won't see any extension of third rail by Amtrak until there is some kind of agreement to test the M8's over the Hell Gate.

[Rutgers Tube]

Thanks.

 

All of those responses make sense, since they all come down to not spending money until it becomes warranted and necessary.

 

Any feedback from the NHL employees who have operated and qualified on the equipment? I've heard and read of MN and LI engineers, mainly those who have been around for a while, who have admitted to disliking the M7's for a number of reasons.

 

And I believe that you meant that the ACSES on the BL20GH does, in fact, conform to NORAC aspects. Given the current role and that those locomotives are playing for MN, something that I don't foresee changing during the future other than the possibility of shuttle service on the Danbury Branch, why was ACSES capability even ordered?

Edited February 25, 2011 by Rutgers Tube

[Amtrak7]

ASCES, with a few minor modifications, qualifies as a PTC system under the FRA rule. We'll see it or a variant of it on almost every commuter rail line in the country and almost every piece of track Amtrak runs regular passenger service on by 2015.

 

Major exceptions in the NYC area are the Lower Montauk, east of KO, Waterbury Branch, NYP, and Jamaica Station.

[Rutgers Tube]

ASCES, with a few minor modifications, qualifies as a PTC system under the FRA rule. We'll see it or a variant of it on almost every commuter rail line in the country and almost every piece of track Amtrak runs regular passenger service on by 2015.

 

Major exceptions in the NYC area are the Lower Montauk, east of KO, Waterbury Branch, NYP, and Jamaica Station.

 

I know, and engineers are looking at having less authority over train movement as a result of it.

[beelinefan]

The engineer on my train this morning said that an M8 train will enter service tommorrow on the 8:32 out of New Haven.

[Nova RTS 9147]

You'd go far as a White House spokesman.

 

lol, thanks.

[St Louis Car 09]

I spotted the M8 this evening speeding past greenwich westbound around 10:40.WOW SHE WAS MOVIN!!!!

[trainfan22]

The engineer on my train this morning said that an M8 train will enter service tommorrow on the 8:32 out of New Haven.

 

Wow, the M8 could be barreling down the NH in passenger service as we speak! I doubt it though, as I'm pretty sure the first run of this new train would get a lot of media attention, and not low key like this.

[Fan Railer]

Wow, the M8 could be barreling down the NH in passenger service as we speak! I doubt it though, as I'm pretty sure the first run of this new train would get a lot of media attention, and not low key like this.

 

actually, thats probably quite to the contrary... the MTA would want to quietly introduce them into service on a weekend where ridership is lighter.. so there would be less attention should they fail on their first revenue run. if all preliminary weekend runs go flawlessly, then they'd make the big "debut" with the media on the following monday... its good PR you know?

[Dave160]

Well according to several people, the 8:32 outta NH wasn't even an M8 anyway, so meh.

[Shortline Bus]

A 6 car M8 train might enter service on saturday on either the 9:32 or the 9:52 out of New Haven.

 

 

As the immortal Forest Glen would say 'incorrect.':eek:

 

I stand by my source (my brother) who works directly for Metro North who states if things go to plan(they getting close to the magic '4,000' miles w/o a hitch) the M-8's will debut in Early/Mid March.

[Vistausss]

actually, thats probably quite to the contrary... the MTA would want to quietly introduce them into service on a weekend where ridership is lighter.. so there would be less attention should they fail on their first revenue run. if all preliminary weekend runs go flawlessly, then they'd make the big "debut" with the media on the following monday... its good PR you know?

 

I highly doubt that ridership will be lighter. After all the media attention to the failing equipment, I'm pretty sure A LOT of people including the press will be there even when it enters service in a weekend.

 

Btw, I was thinking: does someone have information about the annoucement system? Is it the same system as in the M7's (This station is, this is the train to etc.) and the same voice (Charlie)?

[Fan Railer]

I highly doubt that ridership will be lighter. After all the media attention to the failing equipment, I'm pretty sure A LOT of people including the press will be there even when it enters service in a weekend.

 

 

Well if you considered the fact that I said the COULD QUIETLY introduce them without informing the media.... just like PATH quietly introduced the PA-5's about a month before they got official media attention for being introduced into service.. then yes.. there would be an advantage...

[R110B]

yeah and that pa5 initial ride with passangers had kawasaki plant people monitoring the train on its initial run on a weekend on the jsq-hob-33rd st.

[SevenEleven]

Btw, I was thinking: does someone have information about the annoucement system? Is it the same system as in the M7's (This station is, this is the train to etc.) and the same voice (Charlie)?

 

Same announcements all the way through:

 

 

[Vistausss]

Wow! Nice catch m8

Thanks, Charlie rocks!