BUS - Random Thoughts Thread

[Lawrence St]

Fox5 did a story about the outrageous farebeating happening on the Bx1 and Bx2, and someone’s comment was “oh we keep losing money why don’t we just make the bus system free.”

what???

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Fox5 did a story about the outrageous farebeating happening on the Bx1 and Bx2, and someone’s comment was “oh we keep losing money why don’t we just make the bus system free.”

what???

That actually wasn't the comment...

https://www.fox5ny.com/news/fare-evasion-spiking-on-mta-buses

Some places here in the US and abroad have made their bus systems free as a way of mitigating congestion and increasing public transit use. They are generally much smaller cities than NYC though.  Of course the word "free" is not quite accurate. Obviously it would be still be funded via taxpayer dollars (City & State likely), but there would be no fare.  I think the system is too big here to offer it for free. The expense to taxpayers would be enormous.

However, less congestion could mean greater productivity for NYC overall and a more economically sound City, but as I said, the upfront cost would be astronomical.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Via Garibaldi 8

[B35 via Church]

Personally, I think all these transit providers waiving fares (for whatever length/time period) is only expediting the inevitable....

 

19 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That actually wasn't the comment...

To be fair, while it wasn't someone's explicit comment (like he claimed), it was framed in the effect of - With so many buses & farebeaters, some say they may as well make the fares free like they did in DC (paraphrasing).... I remember hearing that part on the news before one of the other mgr's turned the TV off in the cafeteria before we left.

24 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Some places here in the US and abroad have made their bus systems free as a way of mitigating congestion and increasing public transit use. They are generally much smaller cities than NYC though.  Of course the word "free" is not quite accurate. Obviously it would be still be funded via taxpayer dollars (City & State likely), but there would be no fare.  I think the system is too big here to offer it for free. The expense to taxpayers would be enormous.

However, less congestion could mean greater productivity for NYC overall and a more economically sound City, but as I said, the upfront cost would be astronomical.

The MTA's lost the pulse of the people (so to speak) many moons ago.... Even if they were to waive fares again, there aint goin be nearly enough motorists taken off the roads.... Hate to say, but the contrary is a pipe dream..... Doesn't help that NYC's highway network is utter shit.... What also wouldn't help, is that the MTA wouldn't run commensurate service anyway, have enough people ditch their vehicles for public transit....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Personally, I think all these transit providers waiving fares (for whatever length/time period) is only expediting the inevitable....

 

To be fair, while it wasn't someone's explicit comment (like he claimed), it was framed in the effect of - With so many buses & farebeaters, some say they may as well make the fares free like they did in DC (paraphrasing).... I remember hearing that part on the news before one of the other mgr's turned the TV off in the cafeteria before we left.

The MTA's lost the pulse of the people (so to speak) many moons ago.... Even if they were to waive fares again, there aint goin be nearly enough motorists taken off the roads.... Hate to say, but the contrary is a pipe dream..... Doesn't help that NYC's highway network is utter shit.... What also wouldn't help, is that the MTA wouldn't run commensurate service anyway, have enough people ditch their vehicles for public transit....

There have been a few instances where it has actually worked.  In Luxembourg for example, the City suffers from crazy amounts of congestion and a large number of residents work outside of Luxembourg, so in order to mitigate vehicular congestion, they made transit free for the residents.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-07/inside-luxembourg-s-experiment-with-free-public-transit

It's important to note that Luxembourg is an extremely wealthy and tiny country, so you have a tax base that is able to support such programs.  I believe Finland is trying something out with their buses as well.  Here in the US, I heard of some small town in the South that offers free transit.  Supposedly it's been great, but again a small town can't compare to almost 9 million residents here in NYC.

NYC is a completely different animal. As it is right now, even with the Fair Fares Program, people that only have to pay $1.35 are said to still skip the fare.  People just have an attitude that they don't have to pay for it.  In other words, they feel entitled to ride for free because why not?   As the report noted, there are also a growing number of riders that still pay that become more and more resentful with each fare hike (the next one being proposed currently would be a little over 5%) because they see so many people not paying and feel like suckers.  I also agree with you that we are past the stage where tons of people will be enticed to use transit if it were free and as you said, I too think that the  would not run an adequate amount of service. 

They are quite obsessive with costs.  That was the first thing out of Janno Lieber's mouth when asked about the idea. lol

[B35 via Church]

21 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

There have been a few instances where it has actually worked.  In Luxembourg for example, the City suffers from crazy amounts of congestion and a large number of residents work outside of Luxembourg, so in order to mitigate vehicular congestion, they made transit free for the residents.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-07/inside-luxembourg-s-experiment-with-free-public-transit

It's important to note that Luxembourg is an extremely wealthy and tiny country, so you have a tax base that is able to support such programs.  I believe Finland is trying something out with their buses as well.  Here in the US, I heard of some small town in the South that offers free transit.  Supposedly it's been great, but again a small town can't compare to almost 9 million residents here in NYC.

NYC is a completely different animal. As it is right now, even with the Fair Fares Program, people that only have to pay $1.35 are said to still skip the fare.  People just have an attitude that they don't have to pay for it.  In other words, they feel entitled to ride for free because why not?   As the report noted, there are also a growing number of riders that still pay that become more and more resentful with each fare hike (the next one being proposed currently would be a little over 5%) because they see so many people not paying and feel like suckers.  I also agree with you that we are past the stage where tons of people will be enticed to use transit if it were free and as you said, I too think that the  would not run an adequate amount of service. 

They are quite obsessive with costs.  That was the first thing out of Janno Lieber's mouth when asked about the idea. lol

Sounds like you're referring to DASH (Alexandria, VA)..... I remember reading a while back about how they did away with fares on its buses... Too bad it ultimately led up to its residents ending up paying more for residential trash collection.... There were other cuts & increases that city ended up doing to fine tune their budget, but the garbage collection fee increase bit stuck out to me....

As far as the farebeating culture, man, I see old ass people here on the B35 alone hopping the back of the buses all the time... At this point though, while a factor, I don't see it being nearly as much about the cost of the fare by itself (as to why people are farebeating).... There is a certain entitlement as you point out, and I believe there to be a certain *let's stick it to the MTA* mindset that some have also.... It's seldom brought up, but quality of service can most certainly be a reason you have people simply going f*** it, and not bothering to pay.... Then of course, there are the followers; as if to say, if he/she is getting away with it, then why the f*** am I continuing to pay..... All of that combined fostered this culture in this city - regardless of ethnicities or income levels/brackets....

MTA's pissed off far too many people in the past, to where merely having fares waived are going to bring them back.... I've said it before on here & I'll say it again - If I wasn't a transit advocate & enthusiast, I would've been in that very category.... The very reason I started driving to work everyday (when I was still in Mineola), was finally being fed up with the LIRR & the B12.... While the B12 continues to be run through the ringer (being that I live around this route), I couldn't tell you if things gotten any better on the LIRR (main line in-particular), as I don't currently work near any LIRR station.... As far as commuting on the subway 5 days a week, damn, I'd have to go back to when I was over in the West Village, which was over a decade ago.... Apparently, with all the f***ery on the subways (whether some people are embellishing matters or not), it's not exactly a recipe for spawning patronage.....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

33 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Sounds like you're referring to DASH (Alexandria, VA)..... I remember reading a while back about how they did away with fares on its buses... Too bad it ultimately led up to its residents ending up paying more for residential trash collection.... There were other cuts & increases that city ended up doing to fine tune their budget, but the garbage collection fee increase bit stuck out to me....

As far as the farebeating culture, man, I see old ass people here on the B35 alone hopping the back of the buses all the time... At this point though, while a factor, I don't see it being nearly as much about the cost of the fare by itself (as to why people are farebeating).... There is a certain entitlement as you point out, and I believe there to be a certain *let's stick it to the MTA* mindset that some have also.... It's seldom brought up, but quality of service can most certainly be a reason you have people simply going f*** it, and not bothering to pay.... Then of course, there are the followers; as if to say, if he/she is getting away with it, then why the f*** am I continuing to pay..... All of that combined fostered this culture in this city - regardless of ethnicities or income levels/brackets....

MTA's pissed off far too many people in the past, to where merely having fares waived are going to bring them back.... I've said it before on here & I'll say it again - If I wasn't a transit advocate & enthusiast, I would've been in that very category.... The very reason I started driving to work everyday (when I was still in Mineola), was finally being fed up with the LIRR & the B12.... While the B12 continues to be run through the ringer (being that I live around this route), I couldn't tell you if things gotten any better on the LIRR (main line in-particular), as I don't currently work near any LIRR station.... As far as commuting on the subway 5 days a week, damn, I'd have to go back to when I was over in the West Village, which was over a decade ago.... Apparently, with all the f***ery on the subways (whether some people are embellishing matters or not), it's not exactly a recipe for spawning patronage.....

Because the fares have gone up as quickly as they have, you have more people unwilling to pay.  The service in terms of quality has definitely gone down, both the bus and the subway.  People are still very concerned about crime, but the service is also poor, from the long waits (bus and subway, to the rude, unprofessional service).  Some of the things I see posted are just amazing.  If you do get a bus, you have to jump through hoops to get it and hope you don't get run over in the process.  Drivers not picking up at the stops, skipping stops on purpose and putting up "NOT IN SERVICE" (repeatedly in some cases).  The amount of drivers doing this just because they don't want to pick up passengers seems to be at an all-time high.  None of these things are helping matters.

On the subway side, I have only taken a few trips the last several months, and I have found my waits to be long and packed trains to boot - all on the weekends I may add in Manhattan.  While the last few trips had no homeless people or crazies, I would still rate the service as poor just because of how long I had to wait.  I assume that the City is finally doing something to address all of the mentally unstable people riding, but even with that somewhat under control, you still have the service to contend with. The people driving all note the things above I mentioned.

 

 

[B35 via Church]

3 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Because the fares have gone up as quickly as they have, you have more people unwilling to pay.  The service in terms of quality has definitely gone down, both the bus and the subway.  People are still very concerned about crime, but the service is also poor, from the long waits (bus and subway, to the rude, unprofessional service).  Some of the things I see posted are just amazing.  If you do get a bus, you have to jump through hoops to get it and hope you don't get run over in the process.  Drivers not picking up at the stops, skipping stops on purpose and putting up "NOT IN SERVICE" (repeatedly in some cases).  The amount of drivers doing this just because they don't want to pick up passengers seems to be at an all-time high.  None of these things are helping matters.

This is one reason I stopped bothering to casually taking express buses like I used to.... The cuts to the BM's span on weekends is another.

3 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

On the subway side, I have only taken a few trips the last several months, and I have found my waits to be long and packed trains to boot - all on the weekends I may add in Manhattan.  While the last few trips had no homeless people or crazies, I would still rate the service as poor just because of how long I had to wait.  I assume that the City is finally doing something to address all of the mentally unstable people riding, but even with that somewhat under control, you still have the service to contend with. The people driving all note the things above I mentioned.

Compared to the past couple years, I've found myself taking the subway more on weekends... There's almost always some homeless dude/s whenever I'm on the ... I'm shocked at how many of them are on the (again, it's been a long time since I consistently did the whole from Houston to Chambers for the bit).... On the , I tend to get the weed smokers moreso than anything.... Haven't seen too many homeless/nutcases on the 's I've been on.....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, B35 via Church said:

This is one reason I stopped bothering to casually taking express buses like I used to.... The cuts to the BM's span on weekends is another.

Compared to the past couple years, I've found myself taking the subway more on weekends... There's almost always some homeless dude/s whenever I'm on the ... I'm shocked at how many of them are on the (again, it's been a long time since I consistently did the whole from Houston to Chambers for the bit).... On the , I tend to get the weed smokers moreso than anything.... Haven't seen too many homeless/nutcases on the 's I've been on.....

OMG... I used to have to be in Brooklyn for a bit on weekends pre-COVID, and I would grab the  from the express bus and get off by Grand Army Plaza.  The cars were so filled with homeless that there were more of them than us actual passengers. Got to the point to where I started thinking about just going there by car.  The  used to never have homeless people like that, but yes, I have noticed it and they are also very aggressive and mentally unstable to boot, not to mention the people doing their business on the platform, and I don't just mean #1 either.

The  seems to be cleaned up of them from years ago.  For whatever reason, when they extended the  to 96th St, that's when I started noticing more homeless people and I don't ride the subway that frequently to begin with so I definitely took notice.  The last time I rode, there were tons of mentally unstable people riding, to the point to where I actually switched cars.  Given that those cars are locked, I just don't like the idea of riding in one with some crazy person, esp. after what happened with that guy on the   train.  If anything, I'd say I'm still reluctant to ride the subway overall and would rather take the local bus in Manhattan before taking any subway.

[B35 via Church]

3 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

OMG... I used to have to be in Brooklyn for a bit on weekends pre-COVID, and I would grab the  from the express bus and get off by Grand Army Plaza.  The cars were so filled with homeless that there were more of them than us actual passengers. Got to the point to where I started thinking about just going there by car.  The  used to never have homeless people like that, but yes, I have noticed it and they are also very aggressive and mentally unstable to boot, not to mention the people doing their business on the platform, and I don't just mean #1 either.

The  seems to be cleaned up of them from years ago.  For whatever reason, when they extended the  to 96th St, that's when I started noticing more homeless people and I don't ride the subway that frequently to begin with so I definitely took notice.  The last time I rode, there were tons of mentally unstable people riding, to the point to where I actually switched cars.  Given that those cars are locked, I just don't like the idea of riding in one with some crazy person, esp. after what happened with that guy on the   train.  If anything, I'd say I'm still reluctant to ride the subway overall and would rather take the local bus in Manhattan before taking any subway.

Usually after I come from riding out in NJ, I take the to Houston to one of my favorite Chinese food spots a block away.... IDK if they're there everyday (probably are), but I shouldn't be noticing the same bums at these stations on random (weekend) days... There's the homeless black dude that bogards the benches at the northern end of the NB platform (sometimes I see him picking his feet), and there's a mixed dude (can't tell what he is) that sleeps at the northern end of the SB platform.... This was more than a month ago, but that very dude in question (the mixed one) stood over & took a leak onto the tracks.... You'd think as the train was pulling into the station that he'd stop - Nope, kept on going... I know the lady that he kept turning around to look/wink at was creeped the f*** out.... Worse, she had (what I suppose was) her young daughter with her also....

I've seen my fair share of people pissing like russian racehorses in the subway well before covid, but the amount of dried up fecal matter I've been seeing.... smh.... Then there's the ones that take full on "baths" inside the train, buck naked & errything....

[Cait Sith]

4 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Usually after I come from riding out in NJ, I take the to Houston to one of my favorite Chinese food spots a block away.... IDK if they're there everyday (probably are), but I shouldn't be noticing the same bums at these stations on random (weekend) days... There's the homeless black dude that bogards the benches at the northern end of the NB platform (sometimes I see him picking his feet), and there's a mixed dude (can't tell what he is) that sleeps at the northern end of the SB platform.... This was more than a month ago, but that very dude in question (the mixed one) stood over & took a leak onto the tracks.... You'd think as the train was pulling into the station that he'd stop - Nope, kept on going... I know the lady that he kept turning around to look/wink at was creeped the f*** out.... Worse, she had (what I suppose was) her young daughter with her also....

I've seen my fair share of people pissing like russian racehorses in the subway well before covid, but the amount of dried up fecal matter I've been seeing.... smh.... Then there's the ones that take full on "baths" inside the train, buck naked & errything....

Ah yes, King Wok, great place lol

[biGC323232]

11 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

OMG... I used to have to be in Brooklyn for a bit on weekends pre-COVID, and I would grab the  from the express bus and get off by Grand Army Plaza.  The cars were so filled with homeless that there were more of them than us actual passengers. Got to the point to where I started thinking about just going there by car.  The  used to never have homeless people like that, but yes, I have noticed it and they are also very aggressive and mentally unstable to boot, not to mention the people doing their business on the platform, and I don't just mean #1 either.

The  seems to be cleaned up of them from years ago.  For whatever reason, when they extended the  to 96th St, that's when I started noticing more homeless people and I don't ride the subway that frequently to begin with so I definitely took notice.  The last time I rode, there were tons of mentally unstable people riding, to the point to where I actually switched cars.  Given that those cars are locked, I just don't like the idea of riding in one with some crazy person, esp. after what happened with that guy on the   train.  If anything, I'd say I'm still reluctant to ride the subway overall and would rather take the local bus in Manhattan before taking any subway.

Ive been stop using lines that have either 46s or 68s....Even since that one guy got stabbed on the  and what u mentioned above about the ...Couple weeks ago needed to see a friend and avoided the subway totally right on 125 st....Thats when ive notice the crazy farebeating on the M103 to the BX6 Select.... 

[NewFlyer 230]

I don’t mean to go on a little rant but this morning, CP depot once again shows how stellar their dispatching is smh. Waiting for the Q25/Q34 to go to Jamaica and there are currently 7 Q25’s and 1 Q34 bunched up in Flushing. I don’t get why they can’t consolidate some of those riders on a few of the buses and have some of these bus run ahead to close this big gap in service. I’ve said for the longest time that the bus lanes in Jamaica & Flushing did nothing for those routes because traffic isn’t the main culprit to terrible bus service. It’s the depots themselves not being responsible for these routes and the riders suffer. Then the MTA is constantly wondering why people don’t want to pay or even use the system at all. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by NewFlyer 230

[NBTA]

6 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I don’t mean to go on a little rant but this morning, CP depot once again shows how stellar their dispatching is smh. Waiting for the Q25/Q34 to go to Jamaica and there are currently 7 Q25’s and 1 Q34 bunched up in Flushing. I don’t get why they can’t consolidate some of those riders on a few of the buses and have some of these bus run ahead to close this big gap in service. I’ve said for the longest time that the bus lanes in Jamaica & Flushing did nothing for those routes because traffic isn’t the main culprit to terrible bus service. It’s the depots themselves not being responsible for these routes and the riders suffer. Then the MTA is constantly wondering why people don’t want to pay or even use the system at all. 

Those CP routes are some of the worst dispatched routes I’ve ever seen. They’ve sent out those buses in waves, and it’s not just on the local bus side too. They need a new wave of employees in there.

[IAlam]

11 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I don’t mean to go on a little rant but this morning, CP depot once again shows how stellar their dispatching is smh. Waiting for the Q25/Q34 to go to Jamaica and there are currently 7 Q25’s and 1 Q34 bunched up in Flushing. I don’t get why they can’t consolidate some of those riders on a few of the buses and have some of these bus run ahead to close this big gap in service. I’ve said for the longest time that the bus lanes in Jamaica & Flushing did nothing for those routes because traffic isn’t the main culprit to terrible bus service. It’s the depots themselves not being responsible for these routes and the riders suffer. Then the MTA is constantly wondering why people don’t want to pay or even use the system at all. 

Some of those bus ops love to trail behind each other until they get to a point on the line where they typically don't see anymore passengers getting on and then speeding towards the end. I've learned the hard way to just let 1 or 2 buses to pass before flagging down a bus. I almost always get questioned and yelled at for doing it too but if they're playing games I'm willing to play too, especially if I can get to my destination faster. 

[Lawrence St]

What's the status of XD60's:

4727, 4755, 4765, 4789, 4712, 4741, 4796, 4776, 4718, 4740, and 4754?

They've all been out for longer then two months, did they get scrapped?

[Calvin]

10 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

What's the status of XD60's:

4727, 4755, 4765, 4789, 4712, 4741, 4796, 4776, 4718, 4740, and 4754?

They've all been out for longer then two months, did they get scrapped?

Maintenance. They are all inside their respective depots. 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Calvin

[Calvin]

Recently, passing by Chinatown East Broadway at 3:30 PM, there was a Lunar New Year Parade that's almost close to the finish that had the M9 rerouted over Madison St between Park Row and Allen St. Currently, the route itself is running normally along East Broadway. The city was pretty quick to having the street back up and running after barricade removals and confetti off the streets. 

[ABOGbrooklyn]

I wish the mta could turn off the "stay away from the doors" on the new Xcelciors...

[NewFlyer 230]

14 hours ago, ABOGbrooklyn said:

I wish the mta could turn off the "stay away from the doors" on the new Xcelciors...

Minus the Orion VII OG’s and the express fleet all the buses have the please stand away from the door announcement. Some drivers turn it off along with the some of the other announcements. 

[Santana04]

47 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

Minus the Orion VII OG’s and the express fleet all the buses have the please stand away from the door announcement. Some drivers turn it off along with the some of the other announcements. 

We operators have no control over any of the announcements 

[Calvin]

13 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

Minus the Orion VII OG’s and the express fleet all the buses have the please stand away from the door announcement. Some drivers turn it off along with the some of the other announcements. 

It's only the remainder units of the Next Gens, 3802-3888, 3960-4242 that doesn't have the touch door announcements for now. But, in the future, it'll be common that all standard buses to have that door announcement and to avoid it constantly is a rarity as you can hear it on a crowded bus that the operator will say to make room and stand behind the yellow line. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Calvin

[ABOGbrooklyn]

23 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

Minus the Orion VII OG’s and the express fleet all the buses have the please stand away from the door announcement. Some drivers turn it off along with the some of the other announcements. 

Most of the old Xcelciors have them turned off but the new batch that came last year that have the new back doors have them on and they're insanely annoying. No one follows that rule when the bus is packed and it goes on and on non stop.

[NBTA]

Don’t know if this should be a whole separate topic, so I’ll place it here.

The main topic of the article, is free bus rides, which would roll out in the Bronx first (2024), then Brooklyn (2025), then Queens (2026) and Manhattan/Staten Island last (2027).

https://queenspost.com/new-11-billion-state-bill-would-bail-out-mta-freeze-fare-hikes-and-provide-free-bus-rides
 

[Lawrence St]

53 minutes ago, NBTA said:

Don’t know if this should be a whole separate topic, so I’ll place it here.

The main topic of the article, is free bus rides, which would roll out in the Bronx first (2024), then Brooklyn (2025), then Queens (2026) and Manhattan/Staten Island last (2027).

https://queenspost.com/new-11-billion-state-bill-would-bail-out-mta-freeze-fare-hikes-and-provide-free-bus-rides
 

WHY???

Does this apply to express buses? Who’s going to pay for this? Oh wait I know, is the tax payers.

We don’t need free bus rides. We need an increased eagle team presence and higher fines for skipping the fare. It is an absolute disrespect that we have to pay more for those that don’t.

[Mpn4179]

3 hours ago, NBTA said:

Don’t know if this should be a whole separate topic, so I’ll place it here.

The main topic of the article, is free bus rides, which would roll out in the Bronx first (2024), then Brooklyn (2025), then Queens (2026) and Manhattan/Staten Island last (2027).

https://queenspost.com/new-11-billion-state-bill-would-bail-out-mta-freeze-fare-hikes-and-provide-free-bus-rides
 

That should be its own thread. There’s going to be plenty of people who want to respond about this.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Mpn4179