BUS - Random Thoughts Thread

[IAlam]

7 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

This is the same busway that has camera enforcement, so all of those people should be ticketed automatically, and thus no need for the NYPD. As the tickets mount, those people will stop doing it.  That is usually how it works.  Photo is taken of the license plate and the ticket is mailed accordingly.

---

I'll add something that I forgot to mention.  The reason that camera enforcement was opted for is because it is more effective (both in terms of cost and enforcement) than having the NYPD chase people out of the bus lanes all day.  Previously under the de Blasio administration, NYCDOT came up with a program where they had traffic agents go around and literally chase drivers out of bus lanes, bus stops, etc. - I saw it along 6th Av a few times. 

There are simply not enough agents to go around doing that, and in some cases, I'd see a traffic agent chasing one guy out of the bus lane or a bus stop on one block and on the next block you'd have another violator, so that program was ended rather quickly (I confirmed with the DOT during one meeting on bus lanes) and they are moving to camera enforcement, both at street level AND on the actual local buses. The pilot program started on a few local lines and is being expanded, but it needs to be funded, as it is costly. The  also must receive approval from Albany to do what they want to do, which is expand the camera program to more lines #1 and to cover more than just bus lanes, but also bus stops. 

The camera enforcement is good don't get me wrong but my issue was mainly with the doubling of buses due to the subway shuttle in effect. With the doubling of buses in the neighborhood, you can't really afford cars driving down streets they aren't supposed too, The fact it took almost 1/2 hour to get to Main St from Mets yesterday was ridiculous. They did have a traffic agent directing traffic at the west end of the Bridge but considering this is a temporary event you'd think they could also station additional traffic agents at some of the other intersections too. 

I'm not sure how it ran today since I didn't have to go out but If I go out tomorrow evening I'll see if they learned their lesson. 

[Kingsbridgeviewer382]

4 minutes ago, IAlam said:

The camera enforcement is good don't get me wrong but my issue was mainly with the doubling of buses due to the subway shuttle in effect. With the doubling of buses in the neighborhood, you can't really afford cars driving down streets they aren't supposed too, The fact it took almost 1/2 hour to get to Main St from Mets yesterday was ridiculous. They did have a traffic agent directing traffic at the west end of the Bridge but considering this is a temporary event you'd think they could also station additional traffic agents at some of the other intersections too. 

I'm not sure how it ran today since I didn't have to go out but If I go out tomorrow evening I'll see if they learned their lesson. 

This sounds like a dispatch issue based on your complaint on the amount of buses out on the road and the frequency of them. There’s not much the police would do there, especially when that intersection still gets clogged without shuttle buses added there. It takes a while for Q19, 50, and 66 buses to make the same turn as the shuttles do, mostly down to the sea of people crossing at the same time.

[IAlam]

12 minutes ago, Kingsbridgeviewer382 said:

This sounds like a dispatch issue based on your complaint on the amount of buses out on the road and the frequency of them. There’s not much the police would do there, especially when that intersection still gets clogged without shuttle buses added there. It takes a while for Q19, 50, and 66 buses to make the same turn as the shuttles do, mostly down to the sea of people crossing at the same time.

I've seen traffic cops at that intersection help get those buses turned a lot faster, What they usually do is either stop cross traffic temporarily or let an extra bus or 2 turn once the light turns. They force the cars to go straight which prevents the a car taking up of the vehicles turning each light. They also prevent cars from blocking the intersection too which can do quite a bit. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

14 minutes ago, IAlam said:

I've seen traffic cops at that intersection help get those buses turned a lot faster, What they usually do is either stop cross traffic temporarily or let an extra bus or 2 turn once the light turns. They force the cars to go straight which prevents the a car taking up of the vehicles turning each light. They also prevent cars from blocking the intersection too which can do quite a bit. 

Then they can have one or two more traffic agents assist, but sometimes they actually make things worse.

[NewFlyer 230]

3 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I'm not sure why you're talking about "homie" when people of ALL colors are farebeating these days... That means Whites, Blacks, Latinos and so on and that includes the express buses. Now there isn't much fare beating on the express bus compared to the local buses, but the last few people that have got on the bus with either a sob story or had the wrong Metrocard were all White.  We had a young White chick get on at 63rd & Broadway with some story. Driver gave her a talking to and let her on.  A few years ago, we had this hippie looking White guy where I live in Riverdale that not only wanted to ride for free, BUT thought he needed to ride in style to boot.  A few times he got on and after that the drivers stopped allowing it.  He approached me once asking for me to dip for him. Absolutely not. No one gets a free dip from me unless you are paying for it and since I had seen him before and knew his little scheme it disgusted me even more because I got the feeling that he was just trying to get over. If he was truly broke he can take the bus to the subway.

I've also seen some Latino kids get on the Bx10 and ask to ride for free here and there, which I don't get since they get a free pass. This was in the morning, so I don't understand how they could've used all of their rides that early.  Obviously they lived elsewhere, as they were coming from one of the schools, but that means you took one trip from home to school and then the return trip, so what happened to the Metrocard?  I saw this a lot when I lived on Staten Island too with school kids of all backgrounds seemingly not having their Metrocard as if they were letting someone else use it or something.

Speaking of farebeating, on Staten Island people of various backgrounds farebeat, esp. the local buses and occasionally the express bus, so the whole "homie" remark is comical. 

It's also comical that some "advocacy" groups out here like the Riders Alliance come up with the excuse that people are hopping the turnstiles because of poverty and then they bring color into it when I see plenty of people that are doing just fine not paying.  That is such BS and actually it is an underhanded way putting down certain groups.  As someone of mixed background, I find it offensive because it assumes that certain groups always "need a hand", as if they are either too incompetent or incapable of doing better.... In other words, it's like saying that they are inherently unable to do better.

I am well aware that people of all races farebeat, I see it with my own eyes all the time. As a person who comes from the descendants of African slaves (aka black), I used the word homie as if I were talking to a friend given what I stated in the previous line about police enforcing the fare and the excuses some like to make when they get caught in the wrong. It is very easy to scapegoat versus taking accountability for your own actions. However I wasn’t specifically singling out one specific group of people, because people of all ages and all races farebeat and that is due to the lack of enforcement in general. I would say the same thing to anyone who wants to ride for free and they on have nice clothing on, have a very expensive phone in their hand but want to make it seem like they can’t afford $2.75. It’s not an issue of race and or poverty but just the disorderly culture that has plagued NY for so long. If little old ladies for example on a fixed income can deposit $1.35 in the farebox with no problem there is no excuse why a grown woman with a nice drink in one hand and a Pro model iPhone in the other can’t put $2.75 in the farebox. I personally believe that one of the reasons why the MTA & the city is not serious about enforcing the fares on buses and the subway is, because of the potential of racial tension. Especially after what took place in 2020 with Mr. Floyd what I see stemming from the strict enforcement of the fare are some people screaming “oh you are picking on me because I’m black” when in fact it’s because you didn’t pay your fare. The last thing the city wants is rioting and more disorder and if you can reduce the interaction between the police and the public, outside of more serious crimes the better it is for maintaining peace. I think this proposal gives off the idea of if you can’t beat them, join them. 

I agree with you 100% when you stated how some advocacy groups use the excuse that poverty is the reason for farebeating. And similarly to some politicians they throw race in the conversation to make it seem that due to the color of your skin, you are automatically less likely to be able to do what other people do whether that is paying the fare, voting, having internet access, becoming a CEO, etc. It’s that same type of talk over and over again that make some people feel incapable so then they use those talking points as an excuse to be disorderly.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I am well aware that people of all races farebeat, I see it with my own eyes all the time. As a person who comes from the descendants of African slaves (aka black), I used the word homie as if I were talking to a friend given what I stated in the previous line about police enforcing the fare and the excuses some like to make when they get caught in the wrong. It is very easy to scapegoat versus taking accountability for your own actions. However I wasn’t specifically singling out one specific group of people, because people of all ages and all races farebeat and that is due to the lack of enforcement in general. I would say the same thing to anyone who wants to ride for free and they on have nice clothing on, have a very expensive phone in their hand but want to make it seem like they can’t afford $2.75. It’s not an issue of race and or poverty but just the disorderly culture that has plagued NY for so long. If little old ladies for example on a fixed income can deposit $1.35 in the farebox with no problem there is no excuse why a grown woman with a nice drink in one hand and a Pro model iPhone in the other can’t put $2.75 in the farebox. I personally believe that one of the reasons why the MTA & the city is not serious about enforcing the fares on buses and the subway is, because of the potential of racial tension. Especially after what took place in 2020 with Mr. Floyd what I see stemming from the strict enforcement of the fare are some people screaming “oh you are picking on me because I’m black” when in fact it’s because you didn’t pay your fare. The last thing the city wants is rioting and more disorder and if you can reduce the interaction between the police and the public, outside of more serious crimes the better it is for maintaining peace. I think this proposal gives off the idea of if you can’t beat them, join them. 

I agree with you 100% when you stated how some advocacy groups use the excuse that poverty is the reason for farebeating. And similarly to some politicians they throw race in the conversation to make it seem that due to the color of your skin, you are automatically less likely to be able to do what other people do whether that is paying the fare, voting, having internet access, becoming a CEO, etc. It’s that same type of talk over and over again that make some people feel incapable so then they use those talking points as an excuse to be disorderly.

For what it's worth, I guess you could say that farebeating has always existed to some degree. I remember the seniors throwing in a few coins into the farebox and no one would ever say anything because they were seniors so I guess the attitude was they've already paid into the system. Other than that you didn't see such rampant farebeating.

I think one of the reasons you have electeds just saying to make it free is #1 farebeating is not being prosecuted (the DAs have made this abundantly clear), therefore the police aren't going to bother anymore enforcing something that won't be upheld by the DAs (and I don't blame them either).

#2 In the past people used public transit because they were kind of forced to just because of how many people traveled at the same time. Now WFH has changed that so people can drive and are and they don't need to use the . Some bus operators used to say "If you don't like the service, take a taxi or drive". Well that's exactly what is happening. lol Now the City I believe is very much concerned about that. People not using mass transit not only hurts the  but also hurts the City. You have less economic activity for one and less tax revenues being generated, meaning less money for the City. It's already happening in the commercial real estate and if it doesn't change with the , they will have to cut a chunk of service. That is approaching sooner rather than later. Making it free, you have a chance to convert people and get people back perhaps that are in between. You likely are not getting back people that switched to driving at all times. I hear more and more such stories in fact. You are correct though... They really need to work on improving the service. Below I'll list the things I see just with the local buses:

-Lots of service cancelled with no notice.

-Excessively long waits because trips are cancelled without notice.

-Poor/lack of dispatching. They only seem to actively dispatch on SBS lines and the other local lines, forget it. I noticed this when I would use the M79 and M86. If the M86 had bunching, they would work aggressively to fix the gaps in service. Not so with the regular local lines.

-The product/quality of service has deteriorated so much that they've pushed people out of the system and they will have a hard time getting them back.

 

[QM1to6Ave]

I was reading a summary of some recent research on this topic, and the overall conclusion was that if your choices are make transit free or make transit run on time with better frequencies, people will actually do better in the long run with the latter, as reliable transit means you can hold down a job without getting fired/discipline for losing money, pick your kids up on time, get to and from the grocery store in a reasonable amount of time, etc. And frankly, I think having to pay a reasonable amount for service actually makes you buy into caring more about that system. So I'm all for keeping reasonable fares with improved service.

[N6 Limited]

18 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Poor/lack of dispatching. They only seem to actively dispatch on SBS lines and the other local lines, forget it. I noticed this when I would use the M79 and M86. If the M86 had bunching, they would work aggressively to fix the gaps in service. Not so with the regular local lines.

This really shouldn’t be an issue where they have a bus command center and GPS tracking of all buses.

18 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

-The product/quality of service has deteriorated so much that they've pushed people out of the system and they will have a hard time getting them back.

Pretty much, and when they were actually starting to have tangible service improvements, Cuomo runs Byford away...

The MTA has to not only provide service, but improve intermodal transfers via timing and consideration. Especially, later in the evenings when the buses and trains run less frequently. They know where all the trains and buses are, they can’t hold for connections during certain times? (Especially terminal stations). Some buses have even longer than 20 min headway at times. I’ve also seen conductors quick to close the doors in the station when someone is running to the train when theres a gap in service for the next train.

The conductor/T.O. should be aware of the train ahead and behind them to make supporting customer service decisions. If the doors are open and a train is coming in across the platform, and the next train behind you is in 15 mins, you may want to hold the doors to allow transfers.

If you had heavy QBL trackwork delays and you have bunched  or  trains arriving at Jamaica Center/179th st, could they hold the buses for a few mins?

[Lawrence St]

On the topic of bus lanes, the biggest issue I have with the 5th Ave bus lanes is no one knows how to properly use them to make a right turn. You have people making the right from 3 lanes across because they don't know they can make it from within the bus lane itself as long as they entered in the previous block.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

14 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

This really shouldn’t be an issue where they have a bus command center and GPS tracking of all buses.

Pretty much, and when they were actually starting to have tangible service improvements, Cuomo runs Byford away...

The MTA has to not only provide service, but improve intermodal transfers via timing and consideration. Especially, later in the evenings when the buses and trains run less frequently. They know where all the trains and buses are, they can’t hold for connections during certain times? (Especially terminal stations). Some buses have even longer than 20 min headway at times. I’ve also seen conductors quick to close the doors in the station when someone is running to the train when theres a gap in service for the next train.

The conductor/T.O. should be aware of the train ahead and behind them to make supporting customer service decisions. If the doors are open and a train is coming in across the platform, and the next train behind you is in 15 mins, you may want to hold the doors to allow transfers.

If you had heavy QBL trackwork delays and you have bunched  or  trains arriving at Jamaica Center/179th st, could they hold the buses for a few mins?

My stance is that they need to have more eyes on the buses out on the street, not having everything come from the Command Center.  As far as Byford goes, he was more approachable than previous predecessors, but the bus service was actually terrible under him.  He gets all sorts of praise, but my commutes were becoming unbearable under his watch, both via bus and subway.  The only thing I could rely on was Metro-North, but otherwise, couldn't depend on anything showing up.  Missing scheduled buses morning and night. The subways were a disaster meaning either arriving late to my meetings or having to run out of the station and grab an Uber (and this was only in Manhattan for subway trips - I can't imagine the outer boroughs).  Maybe he meant well and I've heard that from a number of people at the  off the record, but he was also not aware of the political aspects of the job.  Trying to push through ambitious bus redesigns that were masked service cuts is an example. To his credit though, he showed up to a number of events in person to speak directly to riders.

As far as the subway goes, I just found long waits (and still do whenever I have taken it lately), so my stance is to try to avoid it whenever possible. I will say the last time I took it, I saw cops in the actual cars themselves and no homeless people anywhere, which was shocking. I was just waiting to see some mentally disturbed individual either at a train station or on the train.  Must've been my lucky day. lol

  

5 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

On the topic of bus lanes, the biggest issue I have with the 5th Ave bus lanes is no one knows how to properly use them to make a right turn. You have people making the right from 3 lanes across because they don't know they can make it from within the bus lane itself as long as they entered in the previous block.

Even if they are using it correctly, you'd still have the back-up because the side streets have overflow onto 5th Av, plus all of the vehicles having to turn.  There is no easy solution and the DOT at this time is not interested in fixing it because it would mean that they would have to make tweaks to the traffic signals for a chunk of Midtown.  

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Via Garibaldi 8

[trainfan22]

Today I FINALLY got a Cuomo scheme Nova on an FLA SBS route. I've been on the blue and white Novas on the B44 SBS plenty of times when FLA had them but never the newer ones until today.

 

 

I had to choose between an NG on the local or the Nova on the SBS, was an tough choice as I'm not sure how much longer FLA will have NGs.

 

 

Also I saw the Eagle team pull up to the stop I was waiting at before the bus showed up.

[7-express]

Does anyone know why there are 7 N/B AM rush hour trips of the Q44-SBS that terminate in Whitestone?

[IAlam]

19 hours ago, 7-express said:

Does anyone know why there are 7 N/B AM rush hour trips of the Q44-SBS that terminate in Whitestone?

I'm pretty sure it's so they can go back to the depo right after. As opposed to why not Flushing over Whitestone, I believe it might have to do with the schools in the area.

[Lawrence St]

I don’t know if it’s just me, but I feel like the #24XX series prevosts have horrible seating space. 

[NewFlyer 230]

I was on the Q56 last week between Jamaica Av/Parsons Blvd to Jamaica Ave/Lefferts Blvd and based off the usage I see on the route, I can’t believe the Q56 was proposed for elimination back in 2009. It’s on time performance still leaves more to be desired but those buses do get packed especially going into and coming out of the Jamaica area. Outside of it running alongside the  for a substantial part of its route, I wonder what was the rationale for its proposed elimination when it’s always had decent ridership. The Q56 of all routes was proposed to be eliminated over the Q102 which the latter to this day still struggles ridership wise. 

[TDL]

58 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I was on the Q56 last week between Jamaica Av/Parsons Blvd to Jamaica Ave/Lefferts Blvd and based off the usage I see on the route, I can’t believe the Q56 was proposed for elimination back in 2009. It’s on time performance still leaves more to be desired but those buses do get packed especially going into and coming out of the Jamaica area. Outside of it running alongside the  for a substantial part of its route, I wonder what was the rationale for its proposed elimination when it’s always had decent ridership. The Q56 of all routes was proposed to be eliminated over the Q102 which the latter to this day still struggles ridership wise. 

Because the Q102 connects to Roosevelt Island, that's the difference. The  doesn't go to Queens Plaza, but the Q102 does.

[BreeddekalbL]

A source in another group said in coming spring pick that the m66 could be going to 100th street and the m60 Sbs is going north to mother clara hale can any operator confirm or deny?

[Express Bus Operator]

51 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

A source in another group said in coming spring pick that the m66 could be going to 100th street and the m60 Sbs is going north to mother clara hale can any operator confirm or deny?

Yes everything is in motion 

[KDGallagher]

2 hours ago, Express Bus Operator said:

Yes everything is in motion 

m66 going to manhattanville 

[checkmatechamp13]

On 2/27/2023 at 11:47 AM, NewFlyer 230 said:

I was on the Q56 last week between Jamaica Av/Parsons Blvd to Jamaica Ave/Lefferts Blvd and based off the usage I see on the route, I can’t believe the Q56 was proposed for elimination back in 2009. It’s on time performance still leaves more to be desired but those buses do get packed especially going into and coming out of the Jamaica area. Outside of it running alongside the  for a substantial part of its route, I wonder what was the rationale for its proposed elimination when it’s always had decent ridership. The Q56 of all routes was proposed to be eliminated over the Q102 which the latter to this day still struggles ridership wise. 

In 2009, one of the sections that they focused on was eliminating routes that had 75% or more of the route within 1/4 mile of the subway. Then in 2010, they were a bit more precise in their methodology and released statistics on the performance of individual routes, and focused more on particular route segments that could be eliminated or restructured with other routes.

[trainfan22]

On 2/27/2023 at 11:47 AM, NewFlyer 230 said:

I was on the Q56 last week between Jamaica Av/Parsons Blvd to Jamaica Ave/Lefferts Blvd and based off the usage I see on the route, I can’t believe the Q56 was proposed for elimination back in 2009. It’s on time performance still leaves more to be desired but those buses do get packed especially going into and coming out of the Jamaica area. Outside of it running alongside the  for a substantial part of its route, I wonder what was the rationale for its proposed elimination when it’s always had decent ridership. The Q56 of all routes was proposed to be eliminated over the Q102 which the latter to this day still struggles ridership wise. 

They wanted to cut the B25 too which has heavy ridership too because it was running parallel to the subway.

 

 

I can see the appeal of the Q56 for seniors and disabled riders, but I wonder why the Q56 along with the B25 is so popular with younger abled body ppl despite being much slower than the subway. I've had a few trains going in the same direction pass me at Woodhaven Blvd before one BK bound Q56 showed up. I only tolerated it because I wanted to busfan the route lol. If I was an normal commuter, I would have simply taken the train.

 

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by trainfan22

[Kingsbridgeviewer382]

7 minutes ago, trainfan22 said:

They wanted to cut the B25 too which has heavy ridership too because it was running parallel to the subway.

 

 

I can see the appeal of the Q56 for seniors and disabled riders, but I wonder why the Q56 along with the B25 is so popular with younger abled body ppl despite being much slower than the subway. I've had a few trains going in the same direction pass me at Woodhaven Blvd before one BK bound Q56 showed up. I only tolerated it because I wanted to busfan the route lol. If I was an normal commuter, I would have simply taken the train.

 

 

Most likely to go to more specific spots. In cases like the 56, some don’t want to take the stairs to the  for one stop or two.

[MysteriousBtrain]

5995, 6003 bike rack units for the Q44 

[Lawrence St]

Reading over some of the notes from the Bronx redesign, it seems a lot of people were asking for a bus route along Bronxwood Road, but the same amount of people wanting to keep service on White Plains Road for the BxM5/BxM11.

[JAzumah]

On 2/28/2023 at 9:54 PM, trainfan22 said:

I can see the appeal of the Q56 for seniors and disabled riders, but I wonder why the Q56 along with the B25 is so popular with younger abled body ppl despite being much slower than the subway.

Convenience. It takes 6-7 minutes to/from the platform (total) plus an average wait time of 4 minutes for the subway versus an average wait time of 6 minutes for the B25. If the average bus ride is 2 miles, it would take the B25 16 minutes to cover that distance. The subway would take 6 minutes to cover that distance. The time to the platform plus the wait time makes the travel times between the two similar.