Brooklyn Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[Kamen Rider]

They said It will be released this afternoon, so maybe we should all just go grab a sandwich and come back in a hour or so instead of mashing refresh a million times over…

[Kamen Rider]

And…

here it is…

already po’ed as it takes away the B38 branch that runs up towards my house…

[7-express]

https://new.mta.info/project/brooklyn-bus-network-redesign

Things are live now.

[trainfan22]

6 minutes ago, 7-express said:

https://new.mta.info/project/brooklyn-bus-network-redesign

Things are live now.

Got an 404 error for both the local and express redesigned system map...

 

 

 

EDIT: the interactive maps work, the UP express routes will now by BM like the former command bus routes do...

Edited December 1, 2022 by trainfan22

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

So much for most of the express bus network during off peak hours. 

 

Also, they're apparently having the overnight B25 run only between Franklin Avenue  at Broadway Junction. Since they only use one bus, how much time are they actually saving by having it end there, if the goal is to get it to run on hourly headways so it can connect with the B26? Why not just run to Jay Street or someplace nearby in Downtown Brooklyn, turn back from there, and then space out the buses so that there's frequent enough bus service overnight. 

Edited December 1, 2022 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Via Garibaldi 8]

12 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

So much for most of the express bus network during off peak hours. 

It's a proposal. Not written in stone... Some of these changes make sense. Some don't. The cuts to Sea Gate will be fought as well as maintaining off-peak service.  Bus stop consolidation I expected and the BM4 routing makes sense since it would serve an area that has asked for the X29 to be restored.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

32 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It's a proposal. Not written in stone... Some of these changes make sense. Some don't. The cuts to Sea Gate will be fought as well as maintaining off-peak service.  Bus stop consolidation I expected and the BM4 routing makes sense since it would serve an area that has asked for the X29 to be restored.

Sure it's a proposal and all, I get that. I just don't think that for it to be an official draft / proposal submitted out to the public, that there shouldn't be such egregious changes to that effect. Through some of the wording that they use in the document along with what they're proposing, it makes it seem like much of nobody takes any those buses during those times. Yeah off-peak ridership it's not as high as peak service, and some routes generally have less than others, but they seriously should have approached that part/issue better than they did here IMO. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

14 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Sure it's a proposal and all, I get that. I just don't think that for it to be an official draft / proposal submitted out to the public, that there shouldn't be such egregious changes to that effect. Through some of the wording that they use in the document along with what they're proposing, it makes it seem like much of nobody takes any those buses during those times. Yeah off-peak ridership it's not as high as peak service, and some routes generally have less than others, but they seriously should have approached that part/issue better than they did here IMO. 

Well the thing is they do that for all of the express bus routes. They refer to all of them as being "low ridership" routes or serving "low density" areas, and some neighborhoods have 20,000, 30,000, 40,000 people living there, so they are not really "low density" areas.  Overall I have mixed feelings. Some changes are smart.  If we're talking about the BM1 - BM4 lines, I like the tweaks made at the northern part of those routes because they often are stuck from Ocean and Cortelyou on up.  This streamlines service a bit more and hopefully means less sitting around at lights. I also like moving them off of Cortelyou and onto Beverley.  Should keep service moving better along there.  I don't like the Downtown service cuts because Church & Barclay is a big stop that people use that either work west of Church St.  Those people have no service in the morning, but have service in the afternoon.  Just keep the loop as it is.  The loop isn't the issue. It's the issue of those buses starting on-time and getting stuck coming into Manhattan that they need to resolve.  The cuts to the spans and frequencies and Saturday service definitely are a no-go.  I do agree with the bus stop consolidation, and thus support cutting at least some stops. For what it's worth, the Beverley Rd change is something that I had asked the  to do several months ago when there was construction over by Ocean and Cortelyou and they claimed that it made no difference in run time back then, but this change that they're proposing would absolutely make a difference. Fewer turns and less waiting at lights in that area.

------

@BrooklynBus Some of these proposals particularly for the local bus lines are stupid. Cutting off the B49 from Manhattan Beach looks great on paper, but as someone who grew up down there, everyone knows that Manhattan Beach has next to no commercial areas, so everyone goes to Sheepshead Bay to shop, dine, etc.  That connection absolutely should be kept. People do not want to go to Coney Island Av via the B68 to shop.  Now some people that live in Manhattan Beach want Brighton Beach, and for that they take the B1.

The other one I don't care for is cutting off the B4 to Coney Island Hospital.  It's no secret that every local bus near there turns onto Ocean Parkway to serve that hospital so the B1, B4 & B36 all should continue to serve that area and turn onto Ocean Parkway.

Overall there isn't much on the local side that improves connections. They just cut out turns and consolidated bus stops.  

Edited December 1, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[NBTA]

The 103 got sent to the gulag..

[BreeddekalbL]

I proposed the B40 years ago, keep the 41 on flatbush and the fact they merged the 2 and the 100 is shocking 

And I agree with the 38 get ride of metro ave branch and saturate the route 

[trainfan22]

1 hour ago, NBTA said:

The 103 got sent to the gulag..

Yeah, I expected the route to be split. That interactive map is a mess but if I understanding this correctly, All off peak SC express is proposed to get cut? Seems like the whole SC depot got hit hard by these proposed changes.

 

 

Is it true they are bringing back the B5 to replace the B11?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

12 minutes ago, trainfan22 said:

Yeah, I expected the route to be split. That interactive map is a mess but if I understanding this correctly, All off peak SC express is proposed to get cut? Seems like the whole SC depot got hit hard by these proposed changes.

 

 

Is it true they are bringing back the B5 to replace the B11?

There would be some off-peak service left, hence the "C" (combination) lines, but no BM Saturday service at all, and off-peak service would be significantly cut.  And yes, Spring Creek Depot would be hit pretty hard with a lot less work, but their union agreed years ago to a terrible contract allowing part-time drivers, and the has been cutting service ever since.  

Edited December 1, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Via Garibaldi 8]

19 minutes ago, trainfan22 said:

Yeah, I expected the route to be split. That interactive map is a mess but if I understanding this correctly, All off peak SC express is proposed to get cut? Seems like the whole SC depot got hit hard by these proposed changes.

 

 

Is it true they are bringing back the B5 to replace the B11?

Some contracts with the union and the specify that "X" amount of trips must run each day.  I believe the union that represents Spring Creek Depot made some concessions to that years ago.  This is why they have continued to struggle to keep bus operators at that depot.  No one wants part-time work and the amount of work continues to shrink overall.  It will negatively impact all of the neighborhoods that the depot serves, both local and express, as those areas have scarce public transit options as it is.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[trainfan22]

BTW the PDF file map of the proposed changes are now working, so much easier for me to find the changes compared to the interactive map. 

[BrooklynBus]

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Well the thing is they do that for all of the express bus routes. They refer to all of them as being "low ridership" routes or serving "low density" areas, and some neighborhoods have 20,000, 30,000, 40,000 people living there, so they are not really "low density" areas.  Overall I have mixed feelings. Some changes are smart.  If we're talking about the BM1 - BM4 lines, I like the tweaks made at the northern part of those routes because they often are stuck from Ocean and Cortelyou on up.  This streamlines service a bit more and hopefully means less sitting around at lights. I also like moving them off of Cortelyou and onto Beverley.  Should keep service moving better along there.  I don't like the Downtown service cuts because Church & Barclay is a big stop that people use that either work west of Church St.  Those people have no service in the morning, but have service in the afternoon.  Just keep the loop as it is.  The loop isn't the issue. It's the issue of those buses starting on-time and getting stuck coming into Manhattan that they need to resolve.  The cuts to the spans and frequencies and Saturday service definitely are a no-go.  I do agree with the bus stop consolidation, and thus support cutting at least some stops. For what it's worth, the Beverley Rd change is something that I had asked the  to do several months ago when there was construction over by Ocean and Cortelyou and they claimed that it made no difference in run time back then, but this change that they're proposing would absolutely make a difference. Fewer turns and less waiting at lights in that area.

------

@BrooklynBus Some of these proposals particularly for the local bus lines are stupid. Cutting off the B49 from Manhattan Beach looks great on paper, but as someone who grew up down there, everyone knows that Manhattan Beach has next to no commercial areas, so everyone goes to Sheepshead Bay to shop, dine, etc.  That connection absolutely should be kept. People do not want to go to Coney Island Av via the B68 to shop.  Now some people that live in Manhattan Beach want Brighton Beach, and for that they take the B1.

The other one I don't care for is cutting off the B4 to Coney Island Hospital.  It's no secret that every local bus near there turns onto Ocean Parkway to serve that hospital so the B1, B4 & B36 all should continue to serve that area and turn onto Ocean Parkway.

Overall there isn't much on the local side that improves connections. They just cut out turns and consolidated bus stops.  

First explain to me why move the express bus from Avenue K to Avenue J when Avenue J is chronically congested and Avenue K moves much better which is why J was not chosen when the route was created? 
 

You are 100 percent correct regarding Manhattan Beach. By cutting it off from Sheepshead Bay commercial area, there will be no way to access Net Cost, Stop and Shop, PetCo, Marshall’s the dozens of restaurants, banks, and local mom and pop stores there. A ten minute direct bus trip will now require two buses and longer walks increasing the trip to 30 minutes. Well-bodied people can walk it in 20 minutes. Totally ridiculous. But I understand their point about wanting to speed up the B49. When I created the diversion to the station in 1978, it only added about 5 minutes to the route.
 

Today, with the added traffic, it’s more like 15 minutes, so something has to be done which was why I would have diverted most of the Kingsborough students to the B44 SBS by extending that to the college giving them a much faster trip. Also, at school dismissal time, I would send some buses non-stop to Avenue Z on the pre-1978 route straight up Ocean Avenue.

Other than Kingsborough students who don’t need the Sheepshead Bay Station, there are few through passengers who are inconvenienced with the diversion to the station because many are getting on or off in Sheepshead Bay. You speed up routes to help people, not to inconvenience them.

Also, the B68 makes fewer bus connections than the B49 causing some to have to pay additional fares like those transferring in Crown Heights. And diverting it to NY Avenue, further increases travel time for those transferring from the B49 to the B35 going toward Sunset Park. They talk about straighter more direct routes, but they rejected my proposal for the B49 to go straight on Ocean Avenue and are causing more indirect travel. 
 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

6 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

First explain to me why move the express bus from Avenue K to Avenue J when Avenue J is chronically congested and Avenue K moves much better which is why J was not chosen when the route was created? 
 

You are 100 percent correct regarding Manhattan Beach. By cutting it off from Sheepshead Bay commercial area, there will be no way to access Net Cost, Stop and Shop, PetCo, Marshall’s the dozens of restaurants, banks, and local mom and pop stores there. A ten minute direct bus trip will now require two buses and longer walks increasing the trip to 30 minutes. Well-bodied people can walk it in 20 minutes. Totally ridiculous. But I understand their point about wanting to speed up the B49. When I created the diversion to the station in 1978, it only added about 5 minutes to the route.
 

Today, with the added traffic, it’s more like 15 minutes, so something has to be done which was why I would have diverted most of the Kingsborough students to the B44 SBS by extending that to the college giving them a much faster trip. Also, at school dismissal time, I would send some buses non-stop to Avenue Z on the pre-1978 route straight up Ocean Avenue.

Other than Kingsborough students who don’t need the Sheepshead Bay Station, there are few through passengers who are inconvenienced with the diversion to the station because many are getting on or off in Sheepshead Bay. You speed up routes to help people, not to inconvenience them.

Also, the B68 makes fewer bus connections than the B49 causing some to have to pay additional fares like those transferring in Crown Heights. And diverting it to NY Avenue, further increases travel time for those transferring from the B49 to the B35 going toward Sunset Park. They talk about straighter more direct routes, but they rejected my proposal for the B49 to go straight on Ocean Avenue and are causing more indirect travel. 
 

Yeah moving those lines off of Avenue K is dumb, not only because of congestion but because of the demographics there. Homeowners and people in co-ops, condos are the exact people that take the express bus.  You want to target those people and make it easy for them to access the express bus because they are more likely to take it since it is there and they would other have to take a bus to a subway (there is no local bus counterpart on Avenue K, thus making the express bus more appealing).

[ABOGbrooklyn]

The B5 is back!!! 🤩

[Kriston Lewis]

Some armchair thoughts:

• B5/6 Limited expanded to Sundays: Took them long enough. Not sure why the 5 and 6 have different spans, that's going to get confusing.
• B15/43 in Bed-Stuy and Crown Heights: The justification of moving the northbound B15 to Kingston Avenue is to provide a better connection to the  at Kingston-Throop Avenues. But the existing route on Troy Avenue puts you about one block away from the Stuyvesant Avenue entrance of the accessible Utica Avenue station, where you have both local and express service. Moving the B43 southbound below Fulton Street takes it away from the Brooklyn Children's Museum.
• Overnight B25 truncation: I see that idea being shelved quickly, otherwise, I am happy that it's mostly left alone. Lots of older folks rely on the line since the Fulton Street Line isn't very accessible.
• B26 changes: I wanted the B26 to be re-routed to directly serve the Nostrand Avenue  station for years. Happy about that. The idea to turn it into a daytime limited on Fulton Street is also kind of interesting, the bus priority has be there for that idea to actually work out.
• B44/B49/B68: Ocean Avenue is very sleepy after a certain hour. I have serious doubts that those overnight buses will carry anyone. I don't like the idea of using the B68's resources for this. I also don't get the move of southbound service to Nostrand Avenue, having the B44 Local, B44 SBS, B49 and the subway is overkill. I have come to terms with the move of the B44 Local to Rogers Avenue.
• B55: Church Avenue finally gets its SBS to the Airport. That's also going to be a nightmare without bus priority.
• New B81: I have a strange suspicion that they created this line based on my MetroCard data, lol. I am happy about the return of local service on Coretlyou Road (and a connection between my old and new home), but I don't want it at the expense of the B103.
• Neutering of the B103: I hate it. The B103 was great, it was a point-to-point limited stop line that connected far-flung areas. If there was an example for an SBS conversion (with some tweaks), this was it. Also, why no overnight service?
• B71: This was a wasted opportunity to restore east-west service through Prospect Heights, Park Slope and Gowanus. There are no options between Ninth Street and Atlantic Avenue. What a shame.
• Express buses on Beverley Road: Beverley Road homeowners are going to fight to the death on this one. They raise hell whenever a truck manages to get onto the street, I can't imagine the reaction to a bunch of MCIs.
• Other express notes: I'm surprised that they didn't try to re-route the former Command expresses off the FDR to Sixth Avenue and Broadway. I am happy about the BM4 being re-routed to Coney Island Avenue which will maintain some Cortelyou Road service and restore part of the X29.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Kriston Lewis
Removing unintentional blank space at top.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

5 minutes ago, Kriston Lewis said:

Some armchair thoughts:

• Express buses on Beverley Road: Beverley Road homeowners are going to fight to the death on this one. They raise hell whenever a truck manages to get onto the street, I can't imagine the reaction to a bunch of MCIs.
• Other express notes: I'm surprised that they didn't try to re-route the former Command expresses off the FDR to Sixth Avenue and Broadway. I am happy about the BM4 being re-routed to Coney Island Avenue which will maintain some Cortelyou Road service and restore part of the X29.

None of the BM lines would use Cortelyou Rd. The BM4 would run via Avenue L to Coney Island Av.  

[BrooklynBus]

33 minutes ago, Kriston Lewis said:

Some armchair thoughts:

• B5/6 Limited expanded to Sundays: Took them long enough. Not sure why the 5 and 6 have different spans, that's going to get confusing.
• B15/43 in Bed-Stuy and Crown Heights: The justification of moving the northbound B15 to Kingston Avenue is to provide a better connection to the  at Kingston-Throop Avenues. But the existing route on Troy Avenue puts you about one block away from the Stuyvesant Avenue entrance of the accessible Utica Avenue station, where you have both local and express service. Moving the B43 southbound below Fulton Street takes it away from the Brooklyn Children's Museum.
• Overnight B25 truncation: I see that idea being shelved quickly, otherwise, I am happy that it's mostly left alone. Lots of older folks rely on the line since the Fulton Street Line isn't very accessible.
• B26 changes: I wanted the B26 to be re-routed to directly serve the Nostrand Avenue  station for years. Happy about that. The idea to turn it into a daytime limited on Fulton Street is also kind of interesting, the bus priority has be there for that idea to actually work out.
• B44/B49/B68: Ocean Avenue is very sleepy after a certain hour. I have serious doubts that those overnight buses will carry anyone. I don't like the idea of using the B68's resources for this. I also don't get the move of southbound service to Nostrand Avenue, having the B44 Local, B44 SBS, B49 and the subway is overkill. I have come to terms with the move of the B44 Local to Rogers Avenue.
• B55: Church Avenue finally gets its SBS to the Airport. That's also going to be a nightmare without bus priority.
• New B81: I have a strange suspicion that they created this line based on my MetroCard data, lol. I am happy about the return of local service on Coretlyou Road (and a connection between my old and new home), but I don't want it at the expense of the B103.
• Neutering of the B103: I hate it. The B103 was great, it was a point-to-point limited stop line that connected far-flung areas. If there was an example for an SBS conversion (with some tweaks), this was it. Also, why no overnight service?
• B71: This was a wasted opportunity to restore east-west service through Prospect Heights, Park Slope and Gowanus. There are no options between Ninth Street and Atlantic Avenue. What a shame.
• Express buses on Beverley Road: Beverley Road homeowners are going to fight to the death on this one. They raise hell whenever a truck manages to get onto the street, I can't imagine the reaction to a bunch of MCIs.
• Other express notes: I'm surprised that they didn't try to re-route the former Command expresses off the FDR to Sixth Avenue and Broadway. I am happy about the BM4 being re-routed to Coney Island Avenue which will maintain some Cortelyou Road service and restore part of the X29.

The B49 should go straight up Ocean. Thought they wanted to simplify the routes so they make the B49 more indirect for this transferring to the B35 toward Sunset Park.

They brag how they are adding Coney Island service to the B44SBS, but conveniently omit they are removing it from the B4. Now they nursing home workers on Emmons Ave  from Crown Heights will no longer have direct SBS service and now may have to pay additional fares to use it if they already require a transfer. 

Sending the B44 SBS to Kingsborough makes more sense than sending it to Coney Island Hospital when riders already have the B36. 

If they want to straighten routes why did they leave the B16 basically as is? It’s because it would have required extra service and all they want to do is cut. They only filled two service gaps on Empire and Clarkson, but left many others. Totally not comprehensive. They totally ignored southwest Brooklyn. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

11 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

The B49 should go straight up Ocean. Thought they wanted to simplify the routes so they make the B49 more indirect for this transferring to the B35 toward Sunset Park.

They brag how they are adding Coney Island service to the B44SBS, but conveniently omit they are removing it from the B4. Now they nursing home workers on Emmons Ave  from Crown Heights will no longer have direct SBS service and now may have to pay additional fares to use it if they already require a transfer. 

Sending the B44 SBS to Kingsborough makes more sense than sending it to Coney Island Hospital when riders already have the B36. 

If they want to straighten routes why did they leave the B16 basically as is? It’s because it would have required extra service and all they want to do is cut. They only filled two service gaps on Empire and Clarkson, but left many others. Totally not comprehensive. They totally ignored southwest Brooklyn. 

The B44SBS route I just saw. Just keep the Southern end the way that it is. 

[Q43LTD]

Why do I get the feeling there were a few missed opportunities with this?

[JeremiahC99]

3 minutes ago, Q43LTD said:

Why do I get the feeling there were a few missed opportunities with this?

It’s because there are. Specifically in Southwest Brooklyn. Me personally I would’ve done things a lot differently.

Edited December 1, 2022 by JeremiahC99

[Kriston Lewis]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

None of the BM lines would use Cortelyou Rd. The BM4 would run via Avenue L to Coney Island Av.  

The BM4 would make a stop at Cortelyou Road and Coney Island Avenue, not far from the current stop.

 

28 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

The B49 should go straight up Ocean. Thought they wanted to simplify the routes so they make the B49 more indirect for this transferring to the B35 toward Sunset Park.

They totally ignored southwest Brooklyn. 

Agreed, it should have went straight to the park. And southwestern Brooklyn got shafted here.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 minutes ago, Kriston Lewis said:

The BM4 would make a stop at Cortelyou Road and Coney Island Avenue, not far from the current stop.

Yes, but not on Cortelyou Rd...