Brooklyn Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[B35 via Church]

22 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Well to be fair, they can still do more than that, since there are some trips that can't be made by transit due to indirect routings, For example, you have the B2, B31, and B100 all terminate at Kings Hwy  and  forcing those who want to continue westward to transfer Meanwhile Avenue P on the  has no bus service at all, giving riders no other option but to walk, and you have bus service gaps on 65th Street....

Yeah, they most certainly could do more than straighten some routes & remove stops in the Brooklyn redesign.....

Anyway, the problem with the foundation of your larger point is that you're conflating indirect & incomplete.... The fact that those routes (B2, B31. B100) end at the Brighton line & doesn't pan further west, does not make the routings of those 3 routes indirect....

[JeremiahC99]

11 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The B2, B31 and B100 are all subway feeders and that's the purpose of the routes. The neighborhoods served by those lines function as bedroom communities, so the majority of riders are transferring to the subway. Before you go into all of these proposals, what sort of data do you have that shows that there is demand for extending bus routes like the B2, B31 and B100? 

 

2 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Yeah, they most certainly could do more than straighten some routes & remove stops in the Brooklyn redesign.....

Anyway, the problem with the foundation of your larger point is that you're conflating indirect & incomplete.... The fact that those routes (B2, B31. B100) end at the Brighton line & doesn't pan further west, does not make the routings of those 3 routes indirect....

True, though with ridership on nearby routes that could be absorbed onto the extended routes, transfer patterns, and latent demand from driving, routes like the B2, B31, and B100 can be extended further

And I do admit that I did make a mistake on confusing indirect and incomplete. The indirect routings I was referring to was for the Fort Hamilton Pkwy and 13th Avenue routings, where the current bus network leaves some segments of these two streets with no bus service and two bus routes serving three distinct segments of both streets, rather than each route serving the entire length of the respective street, straightening them out. I never meant to say that the B2, B31, and B100 routes have indirect routings. While the three routes are direct and straightforward, the fact that they end at the Kings Hwy station rather than continue westward does create indirect trips. For example: take a trip between Marine Park and Bay Ridge. With the current structure, one would ride to the Kings Hwy station. There, they would transfer to the subway and ride either to Downtown Brooklyn, where the traveler would then transfer to another subway line to Bay Ridge. The other option would be to take three buses with one transfer at Kings Hwy and another to the other bus route going to Bay Ridge. The first option is time consuming and tedious (especially that transfer in Downtown Brooklyn), while the second one would involve two fares lest a second free transfer were programmed into the MetroCard and OMNY.

Ideally, the bus network redesign should address indirect trips and indirect routings, though some routes may have to deviate to serve transfer points to increase connectivity, which is another thing that needs to be addressed. This map I have is a snapshot of some of my proposed bus network changes to increase connectivity:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=15NqFt0ppBg5fkWooBmExCG5sVaT0zVae&ll=40.642763660380744%2C-73.9804591908607&z=13

Note that not all routes in SW Brooklyn are mapped out and I am open to exploring options.

[BrooklynBus]

23 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The B2, B31 and B100 are all subway feeders and that's the purpose of the routes. The neighborhoods served by those lines function as bedroom communities, so the majority of riders are transferring to the subway. Before you go into all of these proposals, what sort of data do you have that shows that there is demand for extending bus routes like the B2, B31 and B100? 

One reason to extend them is that they are big money losers outside of rush hours and never carry more than ten per bus load. If they ran further west there would be demand for these routes throughout the day. If the B4 only ran from Sheepshead Bay Station to Knapp Street and someone proposed extending it to Bay Ridge, you would say the same thing. But since it already exists, then it’s okay. Remember before 1978, it didn’t run to Bay Ridge. But there is demand for such a service. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

57 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

One reason to extend them is that they are big money losers outside of rush hours and never carry more than ten per bus load. If they ran further west there would be demand for these routes throughout the day. If the B4 only ran from Sheepshead Bay Station to Knapp Street and someone proposed extending it to Bay Ridge, you would say the same thing. But since it already exists, then it’s okay. Remember before 1978, it didn’t run to Bay Ridge. But there is demand for such a service. 

No not at all. I'm saying that service shouldn't just be extended for the hell of it, otherwise, you're running buses further and they could lose even more money if people aren't riding them. You and I had this discussion before. The B2 in particular used to have a lot higher ridership. I know because I used to use it sometimes when I lived back in Midwood for a period of time. The line has lost a lot of ridership going back to when service was cut in 2010 and it has never recovered from that.

Any sort of extension needs to be justified and there should be clear ridership generators. It should be based on some sort of actual reasons and data and ones that can support the argument of having service extended because the other thing you leave out is, the more you extend a line, the more chances pop up for the line to become unreliable, which could further alienate people from taking it. These short routes as they are tend to be fairly reliable currently. What I'm asking for isn't unreasonable at all. The plus of extending the routes (if done right is) is that they could create new connections and stand to increase ridership, BUT that is not a given. It has to be executed correctly.

What I'm doing is what we are all taught in school (or so I thought) and that is looking at something from both sides, weighing the pros and cons and THEN coming to a rationale conclusion for or against. Seems very reasonable to me. If it makes sense to extend the lines, by all means, but let's see some data to support it. You keep saying that there is demand. Some specifics would be great.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[MysteriousBtrain]

The only proposal I would have regarding the B2/100 is to combine the 2 routes as a singular service with combined frequencies (Kings Hwy-Mill Basin via Kings Plaza). Both are basically the same routine west of Flatbush but you would have to likely figure out where ridership is most concentrated at in Marine Park and figure out how service along Filmore Avenue would be addressed. But that's a discussion for when the draft plan gets released.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

13 minutes ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

The only proposal I would have regarding the B2/100 is to combine the 2 routes as a singular service with combined frequencies (Kings Hwy-Mill Basin via Kings Plaza). Both are basically the same routine west of Flatbush but you would have to likely figure out where ridership is most concentrated at in Marine Park and figure out how service along Filmore Avenue would be addressed. But that's a discussion for when the draft plan gets released.

Which will likely be what they propose and I'm not a fan. It may look simple on paper, but they are serving different ridership bases. Lots of people use the B100 in Mill Basin and Old Mill Basin and with the ongoing driver shortages at Spring Creek if they were to combine the B2 and B100 and have it out of that depot, I could see that being a disaster with overcrowded buses and people being bypassed. The  would combine them just to save money and pack the buses.  Fillmore Avenue is more residential and Avenue R is a major commercial corridor, so it wouldn't be so simple to just remove a bus from one corridor. Aside from that, you'd still need two branches, so I'm not sure I see the point in trying to combine them.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[BrooklynBus]

22 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

No not at all. I'm saying that service shouldn't just be extended for the hell of it, otherwise, you're running buses further and they could lose even more money if people aren't riding them. You and I had this discussion before. The B2 in particular used to have a lot higher ridership. I know because I used to use it sometimes when I lived back in Midwood for a period of time. The line has lost a lot of ridership going back to when service was cut in 2010 and it has never recovered from that.

Any sort of extension needs to be justified and there should be clear ridership generators. It should be based on some sort of actual reasons and data and ones that can support the argument of having service extended because the other thing you leave out is, the more you extend a line, the more chances pop up for the line to become unreliable, which could further alienate people from taking it. These short routes as they are tend to be fairly reliable currently. What I'm asking for isn't unreasonable at all. The plus of extending the routes (if done right is) is that they could create new connections and stand to increase ridership, BUT that is not a given. It has to be executed correctly.

What I'm doing is what we are all taught in school (or so I thought) and that is looking at something from both sides, weighing the pros and cons and THEN coming to a rationale conclusion for or against. Seems very reasonable to me. If it makes sense to extend the lines, by all means, but let's see some data to support it. You keep saying that there is demand. Some specifics would be great.

I am not talking about extending service just for the hell of it, but to improve connectivity. Most trips to and from Gerritsen Beach and Marine Park unless you are near Flatbush Ave require three buses if you can’t use the subway. Also, to get from these neighborhoods to get to Sunset Park, Bensonhurst, or Bay Ridge shouldn’t require a subway to Downtown Brooklyn which is the only way many if these trips can be made with one fare. 

As far as reliability, route length is not the only factor. The major factor is a lack of supervision. That’s why you have a route with 12 buses operating in two clumps of six buses. A few years ago, there was a story how the B42 was operating every 45 minutes. If what you say is true about short routes being reliable, that never would have happened. 

The B2 lost ridership because of the B9 extension to Kings Plaza and mainly because of the B31 rerouting in 1993 to Avenue R which cut B2 service in half. None of that is related to extending the route. 

The B2 and B31 since they are only subway feeders, never have more than 10 people per bus most of the day and usually only about four or less. If they were extended, they would get much more ridership. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, BrooklynBus said:

I am not talking about extending service just for the hell of it, but to improve connectivity. Most trips to and from Gerritsen Beach and Marine Park unless you are near Flatbush Ave require three buses if you can’t use the subway. Also, to get from these neighborhoods to get to Sunset Park, Bensonhurst, or Bay Ridge shouldn’t require a subway to Downtown Brooklyn which is the only way many if these trips can be made with one fare. 

As far as reliability, route length is not the only factor. The major factor is a lack of supervision. That’s why you have a route with 12 buses operating in two clumps of six buses. A few years ago, there was a story how the B42 was operating every 45 minutes. If what you say is true about short routes being reliable, that never would have happened. 

The B2 lost ridership because of the B9 extension to Kings Plaza and mainly because of the B31 rerouting in 1993 to Avenue R which cut B2 service in half. None of that is related to extending the route. 

The B2 and B31 since they are only subway feeders, never have more than 10 people per bus most of the day and usually only about four or less. If they were extended, they would get much more ridership. 

Improving connectivity sure... But you are acting as if Gerritsen Beach, Marine Park, etc. are areas where hoards of people take buses. We're from the same area of Southern Brooklyn and we both know the neighborhoods in the area quite well. Outside of the obvious rush hour needs, lots of people in those areas drive, and I know because I grew up with people from those neighborhoods.  You can include parts of Sheepshead Bay in that too, particularly parts of Knapp St and those surrounding areas near to Gerritsen Beach, and of course Manhattan Beach (it's funny how Manhattan Beach is now versus when I was growing up - always was upper middle class, but now with the new money coming in, more than ever, people are focused on keeping up appearances, which usually doesn't include taking any form of public transit - I'm sure you know what I mean with the cars that turn off of Shore Blvd and onto Emmons Av lol).

The B4 back in the 90s despite your extension was one of the worst performing lines in the Sheepshead Bay area for a number of reasons (I know because I depended on it for school and found myself waiting 45 minutes often). Yes, it definitely was a good connector because East-West options in Southern Brooklyn are not great, but at that time, the demographics particularly past Bensonhurst meant that ridership was not that great going into Dyker Heights and Bay Ridge. Dyker Heights demographics wise has generally been more upper middle class, with a more suburban feel (high home ownership) and layout (no subway, etc.) and thus you had more people that would drive as opposed to taking the bus. Now that the demographics have changed across Southern Brooklyn (East & West), there is a noticeable change in how many people use the B4 across the entire line, so that has to be noted too. I would have to see what sort of extension you proposed for the B2 and B31 before saying that an extension would make sense.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[BrooklynBus]

7 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Improving connectivity sure... But you are acting as if Gerritsen Beach, Marine Park, etc. are areas where hoards of people take buses. We're from the same area of Southern Brooklyn and we both know the neighborhoods in the area quite well. Outside of the obvious rush hour needs, lots of people in those areas drive, and I know because I grew up with people from those neighborhoods.  You can include parts of Sheepshead Bay in that too, particularly parts of Knapp St and those surrounding areas near to Gerritsen Beach, and of course Manhattan Beach (it's funny how Manhattan Beach is now versus when I was growing up - always was upper middle class, but now with the new money coming in, more than ever, people are focused on keeping up appearances, which usually doesn't include taking any form of public transit - I'm sure you know what I mean with the cars that turn off of Shore Blvd and onto Emmons Av lol).

The B4 back in the 90s despite your extension was one of the worst performing lines in the Sheepshead Bay area for a number of reasons (I know because I depended on it for school and found myself waiting 45 minutes often). Yes, it definitely was a good connector because East-West options in Southern Brooklyn are not great, but at that time, the demographics particularly past Bensonhurst meant that ridership was not that great going into Dyker Heights and Bay Ridge. Dyker Heights demographics wise has generally been more upper middle class, with a more suburban feel (high home ownership) and layout (no subway, etc.) and thus you had more people that would drive as opposed to taking the bus. Now that the demographics have changed across Southern Brooklyn (East & West), there is a noticeable change in how many people use the B4 across the entire line, so that has to be noted too. I would have to see what sort of extension you proposed for the B2 and B31 before saying that an extension would make sense.

I don't believe the people in Manhattan Beach don't take buses to keep up appearances. There are plenty of reasons. My neighbor owns a store on 86 St near 4th Ave. She has a direct B1 bus right to her store, but she takes a cab every day. Why? Because the bus takes an hour and a cab takes 20 minutes. She takes a cab to save time and probably considers it a business expense. It has nothing to do with appearances and I don't think there is anything the MTA could do to attract passengers such as her. 

As far as the B4, that was not my idea. It was the MTA's. The B1 was my idea. I proposed the B4 be extended down Stillwell Avenue to Coney Island where you could transfer for a new B21 which would just run along Neptune and Emmons diverting to Sheepshead Bay Station. So I am not in favor of making every route a long one.

Just because more people drive than take buses doesn't mean you don't provide adequate bus service for those without access to cars. 

[BrooklynBus]

My B2 and B31proposals are included here. https://1drv.ms/b/s!AmiYAcY6ebQngUDLhOC-BonmAg19

[Via Garibaldi 8]

56 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

I don't believe the people in Manhattan Beach don't take buses to keep up appearances. There are plenty of reasons. My neighbor owns a store on 86 St near 4th Ave. She has a direct B1 bus right to her store, but she takes a cab every day. Why? Because the bus takes an hour and a cab takes 20 minutes. She takes a cab to save time and probably considers it a business expense. It has nothing to do with appearances and I don't think there is anything the MTA could do to attract passengers such as her. 

As far as the B4, that was not my idea. It was the MTA's. The B1 was my idea. I proposed the B4 be extended down Stillwell Avenue to Coney Island where you could transfer for a new B21 which would just run along Neptune and Emmons diverting to Sheepshead Bay Station. So I am not in favor of making every route a long one.

Just because more people drive than take buses doesn't mean you don't provide adequate bus service for those without access to cars. 

There are obviously some people that take the buses in Manhattan Beach, but let's not pretend that there are some that would not caught dead taking any public transportation. lol Those people do exist. For the immigrant population in particular that has settled into Manhattan Beach from say Brighton Beach and has moved up the economic ladder with their new money, they are indeed focused on keeping up appearances, and so that is another example where there is nothing that the  could to to attract those riders, unless you're trying to say that such people don't exist (they definitely do). lol My point is you have to look at such things and get an idea of what segment of the population in a neighborhood would take a bus if say there was one in their neighborhood or wouldn't regardless of where it went and how frequent it was.

Question for you... Why was there never a B1 limited since you created the route? That line is incredibly slow. I took it some years ago, and actually got off and got a cab. Too many stops.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

16 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

My B2 and B31proposals are included here. https://1drv.ms/b/s!AmiYAcY6ebQngUDLhOC-BonmAg19

The issue I have with your proposals is there is nothing specific stating the purpose of the routes (I know you give a general explanation about better connectivity, but no breakdown by route) and the map quality is terrible.  I've viewed your proposal on my iPad and a computer... Same thing...

Additionally, if it is all about better connectivity, then it would be great if you explained why some subway feeders remain unchanged in your proposal, such as the . 

One other comment... It looks like your  terminates in Bergen Beach. The current  terminates just at Avenue U and 71st St. I thought residents in the neighborhood didn't want the  running further into Bergen Beach, hence the truncated route?

[BrooklynBus]

19 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

, THIse There are obviously some people that take the buses in Manhattan Beach, but let's not pretend that there are some that would not caught dead taking any public transportation. lol Those people do exist. For the immigrant population in particular that has settled into Manhattan Beach from say Brighton Beach and has moved up the economic ladder with their new money, they are indeed focused on keeping up appearances, and so that is another example where there is nothing that the  could to to attract those riders, unless you're trying to say that such people don't exist (they definitely do). lol My point is you have to look at such things and get an idea of what segment of the population in a neighborhood would take a bus if say there was one in their neighborhood or wouldn't regardless of where it went and how frequent it was.

Question for you... Why was there never a B1 limited since you created the route? That line is incredibly slow. I took it some years ago, and actually got off and got a cab. Too many stops.

Of course, those people exist. Yes, the B1 is very slow. There was no such thing as Limited service when I created the B1. My guess why there is no Limited is because of the incredible amount of turnover on the route especially along 86 Street under the el. The few times I rode it end to end, every stop at least 20 people got on or off at every single stop under the el. Also, because of all the traffic, I don’t know how much a Limited would help. What they could try at those times is having A and B buses with half the buses stopping at even avenues and half stopping at odd avenues and a few making all stops. But the MTA would dismiss that as too confusing because they never did that.

 

3 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The issue I have with your proposals is there is nothing specific stating the purpose of the routes (I know you give a general explanation about better connectivity, but no breakdown by route) and the map quality is terrible.  I've viewed your proposal on my iPad and a computer... Same thing...

Additionally, if it is all about better connectivity, then it would be great if you explained why some subway feeders remain unchanged in your proposal, such as the . 

One other comment... It looks like your  terminates in Bergen Beach. The current  terminates just at Avenue U and 71st St. I thought residents in the neighborhood didn't want the  running further into Bergen Beach, hence the truncated route?

I know the maps are bad. If you have any ideas let me know. When I tried Google maps, they Limited you to five bus routes. I know there are some other programs out there but wasn’t able to find them. 

The B74 and the B42, remain as shuttles because the communities don’t want them extended. Not because they don’t want the increased connectivity, but because they are afraid reliability would plummet because they are afraid the MTA would reduce service if these routes were extended. 

Bergen Beach was against shortening the B3 in 2010. The MTA did it only to save money. I even clipped an a reticle at the time, a letter from someone in their mid 70s, complaining be they now have a 3/4 mile walk to a bus and are stranded. There’s just weren’t enough to fight to retain the service. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

12 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

Of course, those people exist. Yes, the B1 is very slow. There was no such thing as Limited service when I created the B1. My guess why there is no Limited is because of the incredible amount of turnover on the route especially along 86 Street under the el. The few times I rode it end to end, every stop at least 20 people got on or off at every single stop under the el. Also, because of all the traffic, I don’t know how much a Limited would help. What they could try at those times is having A and B buses with half the buses stopping at even avenues and half stopping at odd avenues and a few making all stops. But the MTA would dismiss that as too confusing because they never did that.

 

I know the maps are bad. If you have any ideas let me know. When I tried Google maps, they Limited you to five bus routes. I know there are some other programs out there but wasn’t able to find them. 

The B74 and the B42, remain as shuttles because the communities don’t want them extended. Not because they don’t want the increased connectivity, but because they are afraid reliability would plummet because they are afraid the MTA would reduce service if these routes were extended. 

Bergen Beach was against shortening the B3 in 2010. The MTA did it only to save money. I even clipped an a reticle at the time, a letter from someone in their mid 70s, complaining be they now have a 3/4 mile walk to a bus and are stranded. There’s just weren’t enough to fight to retain the service. 

Thanks for clarifying... As for the maps, maybe @Lawrence St can give you some pointers.

[Future ENY OP]

What was the previous full time terminal for the B3 before the Avenue U- East 71 Street? 

[BrooklynBus]

56 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

What was the previous full time terminal for the B3 before the Avenue U- East 71 Street? 

Ave X and Royce St.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Via a press conference earlier today, NYC Transit's President Richard Davey noted that the Brooklyn Bus Redesign would be released by the end of this year.

[Future ENY OP]

4 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Via a press conference earlier today, NYC Transit's President Richard Davey noted that the Brooklyn Bus Redesign would be released by the end of this year.

As in the final look or a draft? 

[Q43LTD]

A draft

[Via Garibaldi 8]

12 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

As in the final look or a draft? 

Draft Plan. No plan can be finalized without a vote of approval before the  Board.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Well December 31st is on a Saturday, so mark your calendars for December 30th. See y'all then...

Curious to on how they manage to redesign (and/or screw) the north-south routes, especially in Southern Brooklyn.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Brooklyn Redesign Proposal supposedly to be released today (this morning)...

Edited December 1, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Kamen Rider]

They are doing the press conference right now.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just now, Kamen Rider said:

They are doing the press conference right now.

Good because it's not on the website yet.

[trainfan22]

Can't wait to see what they do with the BM1-4  and B103.