LIRR And MNRR Random Thoughts Thread

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

On 11/14/2022 at 4:15 AM, Mtatransit said:

Still not a big fan of having both Oyster Bay tracks arriving on one track especially if they are all continuing to Jamaica/further west, but I guess with the budget that is all that is allowed for without going into deep tunneling/spacing constraints,

Same thing goes with the conflict with the Hempstead Branch at Floral Park, granted MTA probably will be content with continuing to run crap service on that branch anyways

 

Also for Mineola, instead of having complete open access to the bus platforms, MTA HAD to put a fence in to separate the railroad from the bus terminal. So much for "intermodal"

I honestly wish they took the time to rebuild Mineola so that it had island platforms. That way you could reduce Oyster Bay Branch movements without having the existing setup and provide greater flexibility.

It would help when something happens on the main line, as you could run service up to Mineola if you wanted to (instead of suspending all or most service). Yes it may have meant more time and money on the project, but this set up at Mineola I can see biting them in the ass. 

[mfs NJT459]

When QUEENS Interlocking was reconfigured for Elmont Station, the LIRR replaced the 80mph crossovers with new 60mph crossovers, while the new QUEENS 4 Interlocking is a 15mph crossover

https://www.thelirrtoday.com/2022/11/queens-interlocking-reconfiguration.html

Edited November 17, 2022 by mfs NJT459

[Lex]

46 minutes ago, mfs NJT459 said:

When QUEENS Interlocking was reconfigured for Elmont Station, the LIRR replaced the 80mph crossovers with new 60mph crossovers, while the new QUEENS 4 Interlocking is a 15mph crossover

https://www.thelirrtoday.com/2022/11/queens-interlocking-reconfiguration.html

The fundamental issue is how the ROW is designed.

[NewFlyer 230]

I was at Mineola yesterday and to be honest the whole setup of the tracks and platforms is ludicrous.

They really should have remade the station with island platforms to make it easier to transfer between trains and what not. On top of that what is up with that extremely high overpass. You can never catch a train if you happen to be on the wrong side and have to run to the other side. Yesterday me and a friend were going to Penn Station and we. We noticed that the train was boarding on track 2 (Eastern Long Island side) so my friend and I, along with a few other people tried bolting to the other side but they closed the doors too soon before we even had a chance to make it down the stairs. It was infuriating because there were no signs in the station to indicate a track change, there were no MTA workers and a lot of people were confused in general. A whole bunch of people including my friend and I were waiting in the overpass above the tracks so we wouldn’t miss the next train which at that point was a good 40 mins away. Now I understand the complaints that some people have expressed about Mineola. It is a mess over there. Oyster Bay trains were only arriving on track 3 while Penn Station & Long Island trains were boarding track 2 but even the timers in the station were indicating the wrong track number for some trains so it was all around confusing. 

[Gotham Bus Co.]

Why do trains have to hold at each station for up to a minute before the doors are allowed to open?

[bobtehpanda]

There is a huge gap between what we ended up building as part of Third Track/Elmont and what LIRR actually wants to operate, or is good for the long term operation of LIRR.

I think that the alternating between GCM+Penn is probably going to be a massive headache, when we could rely on "Change at Jamaica" for so long, and it wouldn't have been hard to set up schedules so that people just change trains across platforms. And now all these flat junctions will ruin service too.

Here's what my fantasy would look like, transfers with platforms on all tracks in bold

Port Washington - GCM

• All trains stop at Woodside

Main Line Local - Penn

• Woodside
• Forest Hills
• Kew Gardens
• Jamaica
• Hollis
• Queens Village
• Elmont
• Bellerose
• Floral Park
• the rest of the Hempstead Branch, or crossover to the Main Line Express

Main Line Express - GCM

• Jamaica
• Queens Village
• Mineola
• Carle Place
• Westbury
• Hicksville

Thoughts

• Mineola should have two platforms, and honestly maybe a specific fourth track for Oyster Bay services since having them terminate on the same track as Main Line services sounds like a disaster
• If Elmont is going to be an important events station it needs all tracks to have platforms like Willets Point
• I think the all-tracks station west of Mineola should be moved from Floral Park to QV. Floral Park has never been that busy, it's not a great place to make transfers today anyways, and on top of that if you're starting from anywhere in the Hempstead Branch you're better off taking the bus to the LIRR than to try and backtrack at FP anyways. FP should still have crossovers, but I think it would be more similar to how 74-Broadway operates on the than a full-time express stop

4 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I was at Mineola yesterday and to be honest the whole setup of the tracks and platforms is ludicrous.

They really should have remade the station with island platforms to make it easier to transfer between trains and what not. On top of that what is up with that extremely high overpass. You can never catch a train if you happen to be on the wrong side and have to run to the other side. Yesterday me and a friend were going to Penn Station and we. We noticed that the train was boarding on track 2 (Eastern Long Island side) so my friend and I, along with a few other people tried bolting to the other side but they closed the doors too soon before we even had a chance to make it down the stairs. It was infuriating because there were no signs in the station to indicate a track change, there were no MTA workers and a lot of people were confused in general. A whole bunch of people including my friend and I were waiting in the overpass above the tracks so we wouldn’t miss the next train which at that point was a good 40 mins away. Now I understand the complaints that some people have expressed about Mineola. It is a mess over there. Oyster Bay trains were only arriving on track 3 while Penn Station & Long Island trains were boarding track 2 but even the timers in the station were indicating the wrong track number for some trains so it was all around confusing. 

The overpass dates back to the parking garage so I don't think they really had "run over" in mind when they put it in.

Also, heights on the railroads do have to be higher, since the LIRR operates those double decks through Mineola on a regular basis. It would be better at this point if Mineola used an underpass. But also in general Mineola is a shitty intermodal transfer given that's what it was explicitly designed to do.

[mfs NJT459]

I’m now hearing the M3s are temporarily sidelined until next month which could further delay the ESA opening

[Jsunflyguy]

On 11/20/2022 at 12:21 PM, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Why do trains have to hold at each station for up to a minute before the doors are allowed to open?

The conductor collects fares and if people are slow or try to drag it out paying on purpose some Conductors will wait on them in a game of chicken. There's also the matter of people being allowed to sit at the door position which means crews have to wait for these people to vacate before the doors can be opened.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

On 11/23/2022 at 5:00 PM, Jsunflyguy said:

The conductor collects fares and if people are slow or try to drag it out paying on purpose some Conductors will wait on them in a game of chicken. There's also the matter of people being allowed to sit at the door position which means crews have to wait for these people to vacate before the doors can be opened.

 

Maybe that's why the draft Grand Central schedules have extra running time.

[biGC323232]

Question.....How come University Heights and Morris Heights are listed as being stations in the Bronx...But Marble hill is listed as being in Manhattan?? Can someone explain that to me

[checkmatechamp13]

10 minutes ago, biGC323232 said:

Question.....How come University Heights and Morris Heights are listed as being stations in the Bronx...But Marble hill is listed as being in Manhattan?? Can someone explain that to me

The neighborhood of Marble Hill is politically part of Manhattan, though geographically it is The Bronx (I think something like 7 of the 11 buildings of the Marble Hill Houses are in Manhattan). It has to do with the Harlem River originally running a bit further north, and when the course of the river changed, the neighborhood ended up being attached to The Bronx, but is still considered Manhattan. (Same thing with the train stop)

[biGC323232]

9 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

The neighborhood of Marble Hill is politically part of Manhattan, though geographically it is The Bronx (I think something like 7 of the 11 buildings of the Marble Hill Houses are in Manhattan). It has to do with the Harlem River originally running a bit further north, and when the course of the river changed, the neighborhood ended up being attached to The Bronx, but is still considered Manhattan. (Same thing with the train stop)

Ok Thanks....I always find that to be strange that 1 Manhattan stop Sandwiched in between bronx stations...lol....I guess thats similar to Halsey Street on the 

Edited November 26, 2022 by biGC323232

[Jsunflyguy]

On 11/25/2022 at 7:41 AM, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

Maybe that's why the draft Grand Central schedules have extra running time.

Is it really extra time if its the amount necessary to perform the work required?

[trainfan22]

The rumor going around internet railfan circles is that Grand Central Madison will open on Dec 5th, next Monday, a little over a week from now.

[mfs NJT459]

2 minutes ago, trainfan22 said:

The rumor going around internet railfan circles is that Grand Central Madison will open on Dec 5th, next Monday, a little over a week from now.

I heard Dec. 18, I also heard a rumor the FRA waiver was approved but not yet published

[Mtatransit]

On 11/20/2022 at 1:59 PM, bobtehpanda said:

There is a huge gap between what we ended up building as part of Third Track/Elmont and what LIRR actually wants to operate, or is good for the long term operation of LIRR.

I think that the alternating between GCM+Penn is probably going to be a massive headache, when we could rely on "Change at Jamaica" for so long, and it wouldn't have been hard to set up schedules so that people just change trains across platforms. And now all these flat junctions will ruin service too.

Here's what my fantasy would look like, transfers with platforms on all tracks in bold

Port Washington - GCM

• All trains stop at Woodside

Main Line Local - Penn

• Woodside
• Forest Hills
• Kew Gardens
• Jamaica
• Hollis
• Queens Village
• Elmont
• Bellerose
• Floral Park
• the rest of the Hempstead Branch, or crossover to the Main Line Express

Main Line Express - GCM

• Jamaica
• Queens Village
• Mineola
• Carle Place
• Westbury
• Hicksville

Thoughts

• Mineola should have two platforms, and honestly maybe a specific fourth track for Oyster Bay services since having them terminate on the same track as Main Line services sounds like a disaster
• If Elmont is going to be an important events station it needs all tracks to have platforms like Willets Point
• I think the all-tracks station west of Mineola should be moved from Floral Park to QV. Floral Park has never been that busy, it's not a great place to make transfers today anyways, and on top of that if you're starting from anywhere in the Hempstead Branch you're better off taking the bus to the LIRR than to try and backtrack at FP anyways. FP should still have crossovers, but I think it would be more similar to how 74-Broadway operates on the than a full-time express stop

The overpass dates back to the parking garage so I don't think they really had "run over" in mind when they put it in.

Also, heights on the railroads do have to be higher, since the LIRR operates those double decks through Mineola on a regular basis. It would be better at this point if Mineola used an underpass. But also in general Mineola is a shitty intermodal transfer given that's what it was explicitly designed to do.

Woodside would require a cross over in order for passengers to transfer. The island platform for PWB/Main Line serves Manhattan bound Main Line trains, and PWB trains to Port Washington

I'm thinking the LIRR need to standardize it's schedule anyways. Under the current schedule, it's an absolute mess of some trains stopping at Woodside, some Woodside, Kew Garden, some Forest Hills, Kew Garden, etc. So I agree with you, we should have a standardized local, express setup. Not looking at the track patterns, here is what I am thinking

Main Line service would look like 

Grand Central - Hempstead, all local stops to Floral Park every 30 minutes

Penn Station - Huntington (Penn Sta, Jamaica, QV or Floral, all local to Huntington) every 30 minutes

Grand Central - Ronkonkoma (Penn Sta, Jamaica, Mineola, Hicksville

The Huntington train would connect with Hempstead train at Floral Park, and the Ronkonkoma train would connect with the Huntington train at Hicksville. Kind of similar to the zone setup by Metro North. it would also eliminate the Jamaica backtrack people from Queens need to do to go further east.

 

Regarding Oyster Bay, don't they all continue out to Jamaica? In some ways that is even worse because it needs to navigate all the tracks presenting potential conflicts with main Line locals and expresses

 

 

On weekends with the headway LIRR is proposing, I am wondering how many people under the schedules the MTA planned will actually get off at Jamaica to transfer to a GC/PS train versus just waiting for the train to the correct terminal or getting off at GC and walk.

 

 

 

[checkmatechamp13]

14 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

I'm thinking the LIRR need to standardize it's schedule anyways. Under the current schedule, it's an absolute mess of some trains stopping at Woodside, some Woodside, Kew Garden, some Forest Hills, Kew Garden, etc. So I agree with you, we should have a standardized local, express setup. Not looking at the track patterns, here is what I am thinking

Main Line service would look like 

Grand Central - Hempstead, all local stops to Floral Park every 30 minutes

Penn Station - Huntington (Penn Sta, Jamaica, QV or Floral, all local to Huntington) every 30 minutes

Grand Central - Ronkonkoma (Penn Sta, Jamaica, Mineola, Hicksville

The Huntington train would connect with Hempstead train at Floral Park, and the Ronkonkoma train would connect with the Huntington train at Hicksville. Kind of similar to the zone setup by Metro North. it would also eliminate the Jamaica backtrack people from Queens need to do to go further east.

Regarding Oyster Bay, don't they all continue out to Jamaica? In some ways that is even worse because it needs to navigate all the tracks presenting potential conflicts with main Line locals and expresses

On weekends with the headway LIRR is proposing, I am wondering how many people under the schedules the MTA planned will actually get off at Jamaica to transfer to a GC/PS train versus just waiting for the train to the correct terminal or getting off at GC and walk.

I agree...the MTA needs to standardize its service, both peak and off-peak. You have these busy Main Line trains from Huntington and Ronkonkoma making stops in Hollis for crying out loud. During rush hour, the local stops from Floral Park to Hicksville should be covered by Huntington, Farmingdale, and East Williston trains (maybe with some Huntington & Farmingdale trains running express west of Mineola), with trains from Port Jefferson & Ronkonkoma (and of course, any point off the Montauk Branch) making express stops. (Ideally Mineola would've been built with island platforms, but of course that ship has sailed)

For Kew Gardens, Forest Hills, and Woodside, perhaps a second branch (maybe Long Beach) could provide local service with service to Penn. (Or alternate trains, some running express and bypassing Rosedale, Laurelton, Locust Manor, Kew Gardens, Forest Hills, and Woodside, and others making those stops). 

[mfs NJT459]

FRA has granted the PTC Tunnel waiver https://www.regulations.gov/document/FRA-2022-0092-0008

The software must be installed in all DE/DM 30AC Locomotives, the C30 Cab cars, and MP-15 work locomotives by Feb 15, and all westbound LIRR and Amtrak trains through Harold Interlocking will be speed restricted to 45mph until all equipment above has software installed and tested

Edited November 28, 2022 by mfs NJT459

[trainfan22]

Am I the only one who is confused about the M3 ban from ESA? IIRC if there was no delays in regards to this project, M1s would have been servicing ESA which I would imagine has the same propulsion system as the M3. One reason I heard they banned M3s from ESA is they don't trust the cars to be able to climb an incline with a rush hour load. Then how would the M1s go there then? The original rendering has the M1 displayed.....

 

 

Also going into Nostrand Ave Eastbound coming from Atlantic Terminal has an steep incline and M3s climb it just fine as far as I know.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by trainfan22

[biGC323232]

14 hours ago, trainfan22 said:

Am I the only one who is confused about the M3 ban from ESA? IIRC if there was no delays in regards to this project, M1s would have been servicing ESA which I would imagine has the same propulsion system as the M3. One reason I heard they banned M3s from ESA is they don't trust the cars to be able to climb an incline with a rush hour load. Then how would the M1s go there then? The original rendering has the M1 displayed.....

 

 

Also going into Nostrand Ave Eastbound coming from Atlantic Terminal has an steep incline and M3s climb it just fine as far as I know.

 

 

Does seem strange if thats the reason.....That section you talking about is a pretty good climb...It climbs a couple of times along atlantic

Edited November 30, 2022 by biGC323232

[Lawrence St]

But why does Elmont need to be an important events station when there’s already a large station built specifically for events…Belmont.

[40MntVrn]

3 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

But why does Elmont need to be an important events station when there’s already a large station built specifically for events…Belmont.

I'd like to know this as well.

[Trainmaster5]

1 hour ago, 40MntVrn said:

I'd like to know this as well.

To put it in simple terms the access to the Arena and the track itself is easier for the railroad from Elmont Station compared with the routing to/from the racetrack to the mainline. With the exception of feed delivery to the racetrack it’s easier and more efficient railroad wise to use the mainline vs tying it up for the occasional move. My take on the situation. Carry on.

[Trainmaster5]

On 11/29/2022 at 7:41 PM, trainfan22 said:

Am I the only one who is confused about the M3 ban from ESA? IIRC if there was no delays in regards to this project, M1s would have been servicing ESA which I would imagine has the same propulsion system as the M3. One reason I heard they banned M3s from ESA is they don't trust the cars to be able to climb an incline with a rush hour load. Then how would the M1s go there then? The original rendering has the M1 displayed.....

 

 

Also going into Nostrand Ave Eastbound coming from Atlantic Terminal has an steep incline and M3s climb it just fine as far as I know.

 

 

I think you’re somewhat mistaken about the amount of incline that the train traverses from Atlantic Terminal into Nostrand Avenue eastbound. I remember an elementary school teacher telling us to stand at the overpass at Bedford Avenue and look toward Nostrand Avenue and the station. The fact is that the street, Atlantic Avenue, dips downward as it approaches the intersection with Nostrand . The illusion is that the incline is steeper than it appears because the overpass at Bedford is at almost the same level as the platforms at the station. It’s more noticeable if you’re driving or walking from Bedford to the East. Something we were taught 65+ years ago when Grandma and her schoolteacher next door neighbor would walk us to the post office on Atlantic Avenue 😀. We were being taught something new daily even in the summer time. Carry on.

[Mtatransit]

10 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

But why does Elmont need to be an important events station when there’s already a large station built specifically for events…Belmont.

The MTA doesn't really want to serve Belmont that is why.

 

They would much prefer if everyone uses Elmont so they don't have to add any additional service.

That is my suspicion why every single weekend Main Line local and express train stops at UBS arena post ESA, when the station doesn't even serve the community that well. It is so if there is a event, they don;t have to do any additional work, or at most add like one train to/from Jamaica