Bronx Redesign Draft Released

[Eric B]

On 5/29/2022 at 9:53 PM, Q43LTD said:

They added brown... haven't seen that color on a bus map since the '90s

 

On 5/29/2022 at 10:10 PM, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Personally, brown is a color I would avoid when depicting anything. It's just not all that appealing. 

If they changed the Q50 to light blue/cyan, they could have used lime for the Bx25. 

The M125 could have also been light blue, if they changed the M35 to purple (which wouldn't conflict with anything). 

There was no reason to change the Bx18's color. In fact, that brown meshes with the red & purple on University Avenue (and not in a good way). The lime provided a contrast there.

 

On 5/30/2022 at 12:18 AM, GojiMet86 said:

That brown also mixes up with the yellow......

 

On 5/30/2022 at 8:09 PM, B35 via Church said:

I agree, but mostly for a different reason....

With the new Bx11 covering the 174th portion (of the current Bx36), this would've been a prime opportunity to have the Bx36 run with the Q44 b/w [Boston/180th] & [Cross Bronx Service rd./White Plains rd (WPR)], with the Bx36 being left alone b/w Washington Heights & West Farms ... Instead, they have this new Bx36 running along Tremont to WPR.... There isn't a real need to have the Bx36 running along WPR north of the Cross Bronx, all things considered...

Given that the Bx36 has to contend with Washington Bridge traffic to/from Washington Heights (and Washington Heights in & of itself), I would say that it absolutely matters....

You make it sound like the Bx36 & the Bx40/42 are somehow interchangeable for the vast majority of Bronx riders or something.....

I get that they wanted to highlight/differentiate the new changes to the network & what not, but I would've stayed away from brown also (although I like how the Bx25/26 looks along Allerton).... Agreed with that brown clashing horribly over there around Macombs/University... FWIW, the West Bronx in general could use more red (and purple, for that matter)... There is too much blue (the skyblue & the regular blue) & orange in that region of the borough, south of High Bridge & south of Morrisania.... Conversely, there is too much red in the NE Bronx...

Speaking of the NE Bronx, for starters, I would change the Q50 to purple & the Bx24 to skyblue... You'd simply have to add a route marker at Dreiser loop for the Bx23 to separate it from the Q50... Part of the problem too is that there are too many separate layers in Co-op City... What I mean by that is, every route that serves Co-Op doesn't necessarily have to be a different color...

With the M125, yeah, that makes sense... All you'd then have to do is change the M104 to anything other than red... The Bx32 could be changed to purple, with the Bx21 being changed to red.....

The light green isn't as conspicuous because the base map is too bright/white...

Something else about their use of the light green, is that they use it for all the Bee-Line routes... Those routes should be colored gray IMO....

I think it's cool thes brought the brown back. It doesn't blur with the other colors to me at all; not even orange! (And what yellow is there?)

And yes, I would make the suburban routes gray or black. (And I don't know why they went with a “BL” designation instead of sticking with “W”. It's supposed to be the initial of the borogh or county).

[B35 via Church]

On 6/1/2022 at 8:16 PM, MysteriousBtrain said:

The bold is the only thing I disagree with. Bx5 dosent see much ridership partially bc MTA doesn't promote it and knows if they add weekday service that's gonna dip into $$. They rather just keep the sole route of the Bx12 SBS and cram everyone into that. Not to even mention how bad it might get later when the Bx29 starts it's cut.

I agree with @NBTA with that; the Bx5 is more or less an afterthought at Bay Plaza... I had doubts/questions about it panning out when they first started having buses do that...

That idea of @RSMG106's regarding having every other trip on weekdays running to Bay Plaza, when just about every other trip currently short turns at WPR from Westchester/Southern (which says enough about the portion b/w WPR & PBP ), would be a colossal waste.... The city's local routes in general could stand to use more promotion, but one of the biggest issues (as I see it anyway) with the entirety of the Bx5, singularly, is that its core riderbase, while potent, is too narrow..... It's always been like that, for as far back as I can remember (being, during the 90's - when the situation was worse than it is now)..... Thing about it is that, if they were go about splitting the Bx5 @ WPR, the eastern/northern split would run at coverage headways at best....

Although I don't have a remedy (outside of leaving it alone, of course) for the WPR - Pelham Bay portion of the route, one thing that I always thought the Bx5 should do, is run down Castle Hill with the Bx22 to terminate.... Regardless of that, if/whenever they end up having Bx6 SBS' via Story to WPR, I would shudder to think about what the Bx5 could end up becoming...

On 6/1/2022 at 7:17 AM, NBTA said:

I’ve came up with this idea before, but now, as more time comes past, it wouldn’t work with constant traffic jams, plus the  is one of the most reliable buses in the Bronx, and the  isn’t.

The irony of this comment AFAIC, is that I find the Bx27 to be unreliable & out of all the routes that terminate over there at West Farms/Southern, the Bx35 is the most reliable.

Regarding the revised network, I have mixed opinions about having the Bx35 run over there to West Farms/Jennings... Now it's going to have the same foible that the Bx6 has, where it doesn't serve the .... I would say that it makes sense to declutter the mini-terminal that is West Farms/Southern (for the sake of having the Bx35 take over that part of the current Bx11 east of Southern (given the upcoming Bx11 extension),) but they're going to apparently have Bx4a's taking its place there.... While it was cool for a little minute, I'm at the point now where I think they should do away with the Bx4/4a experiment (so to speak)....

[B35 via Church]

On 6/2/2022 at 12:39 PM, Eric B said:

I think it's cool they brought the brown back. It doesn't blur with the other colors to me at all; not even orange! (And what yellow is there?)

And yes, I would make the suburban routes gray or black. (And I don't know why they went with a “BL” designation instead of sticking with “W”. It's supposed to be the initial of the borough or county).

I like the way the Bx25/26 looks on Allerton (brown/orange), but as was previously mentioned, it clashes when its coupled with red & purple IMO...

I'm not really tripping over their use of prefixes (hell, Bee Line themselves don't even use prefixes), but I do find it a bit extra that they show as much of the Bee Line system in the southern part of the county - going as far as to show routes that never enters The Bronx....

[GreatOne2k]

Bx5 to Bay Plaza on weekdays wouldn't be a waste. With the Bx23, Bx29, Q50, and W45 all terminating at Pelham Bay, the Bx5 going to Bay Plaza could free up space. Also with all Pelham Bay Bx5's extended to Bay Plaza service will be expanded from 10:30pm to at least midnight on weekdays on the Pelham Bay branch. The Bx5 would have to make an additional stop at Bartow Mall with the Bx12 SBS to help with the crowding. Some Bx5 buses leaving Bay Plaza do have some ridership. It doesn't help that the Bx5 stop is so far back of the mall. When the Bx12 SBS doesn't show up some people start going over to the Bx5 if it is there.

[B35 via Church]

On 6/1/2022 at 5:35 PM, GreatOne2k said:

Bx5 really needs overnight service. Story Avenue has no bus service at night. Bx39 needs to run to Clason Point until at least midnight from 241 St 7 days a week.

2 hours ago, GreatOne2k said:

Bx5 to Bay Plaza on weekdays wouldn't be a waste. With the Bx23, Bx29, Q50, and W45 all terminating at Pelham Bay, the Bx5 going to Bay Plaza could free up space. Also with all Pelham Bay Bx5's extended to Bay Plaza service will be expanded from 10:30pm to at least midnight on weekdays on the Pelham Bay branch. The Bx5 would have to make an additional stop at Bartow Mall with the Bx12 SBS to help with the crowding. Some Bx5 buses leaving Bay Plaza do have some ridership. It doesn't help that the Bx5 stop is so far back of the mall. When the Bx12 SBS doesn't show up some people start going over to the Bx5 if it is there.

Running Bx5's to Bay Plaza on weekdays isn't a remedy for a span expansion....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

52 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Running Bx5's to Bay Plaza on weekdays isn't a remedy for a span expansion....

I don't understand his arguments. He is just rambling about how this at that line needs to run longer with no mention of ridership. Some lines don't need to run 24/7, esp. if ridership isn't that great to begin with.

[GreatOne2k]

3 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I don't understand his arguments. He is just rambling about how this at that line needs to run longer with no mention of ridership. Some lines don't need to run 24/7, esp. if ridership isn't that great to begin with.

The Bx5 was proposed for 24/7 service in 2007 (along with the Bx1, Bx3, and Bx13) and had a slight span expansion in 2015. Span of service becomes a major issue if one has to work late and has limited options in which to get home without a long wait and/or walk.

[NBTA]

10 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I agree with @NBTA with that; the Bx5 is more or less an afterthought at Bay Plaza... I had doubts/questions about it panning out when they first started having buses do that...

That idea of @RSMG106's regarding having every other trip on weekdays running to Bay Plaza, when just about every other trip currently short turns at WPR from Westchester/Southern (which says enough about the portion b/w WPR & PBP ), would be a colossal waste.... The city's local routes in general could stand to use more promotion, but one of the biggest issues (as I see it anyway) with the entirety of the Bx5, singularly, is that its core riderbase, while potent, is too narrow..... It's always been like that, for as far back as I can remember (being, during the 90's - when the situation was worse than it is now)..... Thing about it is that, if they were go about splitting the Bx5 @ WPR, the eastern/northern split would run at coverage headways at best....

Although I don't have a remedy (outside of leaving it alone, of course) for the WPR - Pelham Bay portion of the route, one thing that I always thought the Bx5 should do, is run down Castle Hill with the Bx22 to terminate.... Regardless of that, if/whenever they end up having Bx6 SBS' via Story to WPR, I would shudder to think about what the Bx5 could end up becoming...

The irony of this comment AFAIC, is that I find the Bx27 to be unreliable & out of all the routes that terminate over there at West Farms/Southern, the Bx35 is the most reliable.

Regarding the revised network, I have mixed opinions about having the Bx35 run over there to West Farms/Jennings... Now it's going to have the same foible that the Bx6 has, where it doesn't serve the .... I would say that it makes sense to declutter the mini-terminal that is West Farms/Southern (for the sake of having the Bx35 take over that part of the current Bx11 east of Southern (given the upcoming Bx11 extension),) but they're going to apparently have Bx4a's taking its place there.... While it was cool for a little minute, I'm at the point now where I think they should do away with the Bx4/4a experiment (so to speak)....

I honestly heard different about the 27/35 thing, but times may have changed and I could be wrong, just like with everything else.

[NBTA]

2 hours ago, GreatOne2k said:

The Bx5 was proposed for 24/7 service in 2007 (along with the Bx1, Bx3, and Bx13) and had a slight span expansion in 2015. Span of service becomes a major issue if one has to work late and has limited options in which to get home without a long wait and/or walk.

Well I would say that the 1, 3 and 13 are warranted 24/7 service. The Bx5…I think not.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

6 hours ago, GreatOne2k said:

The Bx5 was proposed for 24/7 service in 2007 (along with the Bx1, Bx3, and Bx13) and had a slight span expansion in 2015. Span of service becomes a major issue if one has to work late and has limited options in which to get home without a long wait and/or walk.

That was 15 years ago. Ridership patterns have changed, so that would need to be re-assessed again. Something else people keep forgetting is that there continues to be a shortage of bus operators, which means lots of cancelled trips. What's worse with the local buses is that they are not necessarily announcing those cancelled trips, so you have a schedule out that they can't meet and it becomes pointless. 

[MysteriousBtrain]

Something to note on the MTA website the Bronx bus redesign was renamed Bronx Local Bus Redesign. They don't mention anything regarding the express bus network. @Via Garibaldi 8 probably has the insight on this but obviously it looks like the express plan was indefinitely shelved but there's absolutely no mention of if they are even gonna revisit the plans due to extreme backlash from the changes. Seems like they don't even wanna attempt at it again because everything now is mostly what everyone wants. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

58 minutes ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Something to note on the MTA website the Bronx bus redesign was renamed Bronx Local Bus Redesign. They don't mention anything regarding the express bus network. @Via Garibaldi 8 probably has the insight on this but obviously it looks like the express plan was indefinitely shelved but there's absolutely no mention of if they are even gonna revisit the plans due to extreme backlash from the changes. Seems like they don't even wanna attempt at it again because everything now is mostly what everyone wants. 

For now, the Bronx Express Bus Network will stay exactly as it is. They changed it to Bronx Local Bus Redesign to avoid any confusion, as they were still getting complaints from people telling them not to cut such and such express bus line or remove such and such stops.  The Bronx Express Bus Draft that was proposed was vehemently opposed and it has been shelved indefinitely. If it is to be revisited, they would do so after the other boroughs are done. Knowing that my group was responsible for a lot of the calls placed by riders to their elected officials (we created fliers for all of the lines and had people circulate them at bus stops, etc.), feedback, etc., I did receive a phone call, particularly about lines like the BxM4. They tried to come back with something like old BxM4A that ran up the Concourse, but would terminate by Tracey Towers and I told them that wasn't going to fly and riders want that line as is.

The BxM4 had a petition circulated that received many signatures and was sent to elected officials. That is just one example, but there was fierce opposition overall to every change. Riders were opposed to the BxM11 being moved to Bronxwood Av. BxM9 riders did not want any stops in Throggs Neck removed, as they said they were well used and popular. BxM8 riders opposed having the bus skip the Crosby Av segment, as it would force people to walk to Bruckner Blvd, and the BxM2 was very heavily opposed by Mount Sinai workers. They signed a petition with about 400 people just in a few days and brought it to a Emergency Town Hall meeting, and there, a worker from Mount Sinai presented it to the  planners.

Just some examples, so yeah, the plan was not well received.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Gotham Bus Co.]

8 hours ago, NBTA said:

Well I would say that the 1, 3 and 13 are warranted 24/7 service. The Bx5…I think not.

Bx3 and Bx13 used to have a combined night bus...

• Leave GW Bridge via Bx13 southbound to Yankee Stadium.
• Leave Yankee Stadium via Bx13 northbound to University Avenue, then via Bx3 north to 238th.
• Leave 238th via Bx3 south to GW Bridge.

 

[NBTA]

2 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Bx3 and Bx13 used to have a combined night bus...

• Leave GW Bridge via Bx13 southbound to Yankee Stadium.
• Leave Yankee Stadium via Bx13 northbound to University Avenue, then via Bx3 north to 238th.
• Leave 238th via Bx3 south to GW Bridge.

 

That’s..insane, but I would see that working nowadays. Use GWB as the “loop” point. 

Bx3 238-GWB, Bx13 GWB-River, Bx13 River-El Grant, and lastly Bx13 El Grant-238. 

[Mpn4179]

They are now posting “Bus Stop Elimination” signs on the stops being eliminated on June 26.

[JAzumah]

I will say that I did like the BxM17 and I'll keep an eye on that route. This is one of those specialty routes that doesn't need a lot of buses to be successful.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

16 hours ago, JAzumah said:

I will say that I did like the BxM17 and I'll keep an eye on that route. This is one of those specialty routes that doesn't need a lot of buses to be successful.

That route was a joke and could take hours when traffic was bad. That said there are more people in general taking the BxM18 up to transfer to the Bronx express bus lines to avoid the subway because of the concerns about safety.

[7-express]

New schedules for the Bronx are out: https://www.amny.com/transit/bronx-bus-redesign-schedule-release-mta/

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Before anyone goes crazy, the Bronx express bus schedules shown are pretty much the same as they are today.  They are just switching to the new layout and changing the maps to show the new connections.

[7-express]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Before anyone goes crazy, the Bronx express bus schedules shown are pretty much the same as they are today.  They are just switching to the new layout and changing the maps to show the new connections.

It was noted on the Bronx schedule site that "Service on the Bx5, Bx6, Bx6-SBS, and express buses will not change at this time".  Wonder when that will eventually change...

[NBTA]

1 hour ago, 7-express said:

It was noted on the Bronx schedule site that "Service on the Bx5, Bx6, Bx6-SBS, and express buses will not change at this time".  Wonder when that will eventually change...

2023/2024 I believe for the bold.

[Cait Sith]

2 hours ago, 7-express said:

It was noted on the Bronx schedule site that "Service on the Bx5, Bx6, Bx6-SBS, and express buses will not change at this time".  Wonder when that will eventually change...

After OMNY is fully implemented.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

13 hours ago, 7-express said:

It was noted on the Bronx schedule site that "Service on the Bx5, Bx6, Bx6-SBS, and express buses will not change at this time".  Wonder when that will eventually change...

IF they revisit the Bronx express bus network, it would likely be after the other redesigns, but it has been shelved indefinitely for now.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

17 hours ago, 7-express said:

New schedules for the Bronx are out: https://www.amny.com/transit/bronx-bus-redesign-schedule-release-mta/

 

So the Bx15 is unchanged, and the M125 is being added on top of it?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

28 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

So the Bx15 is unchanged, and the M125 is being added on top of it?

What gave you that impression?  The map is pretty clear.