R179 Discussion Thread

[RailRunRob]

13 hours ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

Just conveniently forgotten about perhaps?  

 conveniently indeed. Regen isn't exactly new technology in NYCT system now. Now when the R142/s were testing back in 1999/2000 being the 1st mass production AC/regen cars I'm sure there were quite a bit of kinks to workout even with all that was learned from the 110's so the R142/142a rollout understandable.  4 car classes later I'm sure there should be a better understanding of specs Internal and external.I don't claim to be an expert but I do understand some of the basics here. Even with regenerative braking, I understand it doesn't guarantee a return to the grid external factors play a role as well. That brings me to my second question the Power distribution grid? What's the MTA's status there? That's a hugely important factor in operations And it's largely invisible.  Could be a Contributing factor here?.. Not that Bombardier deserves a pass.

Edited December 14, 2017 by RailRunRob

[Bosco]

29 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

 conveniently indeed. Regen isn't exactly new technology in NYCT system now. Now when the R142/s were testing back in 1999/2000 being the 1st mass production AC/regen cars I'm sure there were quite a bit of kinks to workout even with all that was learned from the 110's so the R142/142a rollout understandable.  4 car classes later I'm sure there should be a better understanding of specs Internal and external.I don't claim to be an expert but I do understand some of the basics here. Even with regenerative braking, I understand it doesn't guarantee a return to the grid external factors play a role as well. That brings me to my second question the Power distribution grid? What's the MTA's status there? That's a hugely important factor in operations And it's largely invisible.  Could be a Contributing factor here?.. Not that Bombardier deserves a pass.

ConEdison plays a role in some of the MTA's failures (think the transformer explosion back in April).  As for the regenerative braking, if for whatever reason it doesn't work properly (whether it's the infrastructure or the car itself), they can shut it off (there's a cutout switch).  So it shouldn't be as big a deal as some make it out to be.

[RailRunRob]

8 hours ago, Bosco said:

ConEdison plays a role in some of the MTA's failures (think the transformer explosion back in April).  As for the regenerative braking, if for whatever reason it doesn't work properly (whether it's the infrastructure or the car itself), they can shut it off (there's a cutout switch).  So it shouldn't be as big a deal as some make it out to be.

I agree on a per case basis things happen here and there. But if buy a Telsa and I'm sold on efficiency then you tell me regenerative features are disabled on all Model S cars after you sold me that's a problem.  When I was at the MTA's event this summer they were selling everyone on there sustainability and yearly saving traction power reductions were a major part of that. They were talking 3.5 to 11kWh per stop on there regen fleet and like 12 kWh onboard energy storage with LEED standards and certifications. I'm not saying its a big deal but if you're talking about fleets of cars switching off after hearing all the hype I mean (Shurgs) wow. I could have ran out for Coffee on that talk.

Edited December 15, 2017 by RailRunRob

[Trainmaster5]

8 hours ago, Bosco said:

ConEdison plays a role in some of the MTA's failures (think the transformer explosion back in April).  As for the regenerative braking, if for whatever reason it doesn't work properly (whether it's the infrastructure or the car itself), they can shut it off (there's a cutout switch).  So it shouldn't be as big a deal as some make it out to be.

When the R142 cars were new they would shut down, DEAD, between Church Avenue and Flatbush. Turned out that the ConEd plant upstairs around Newkirk/Foster was sending it's excess power down to the subway system from time to time. The NTTs sensed an overload condition and shut down. The older equipment never had that problem so there were occasions when there were two R142 consists in the terminal, dead, and a s/b SMEE at Newkirk waiting to proceed. Since there were Bombardier techs at Flatbush or on board some of the revenue trains the procedure was to call ConEd to turn off the excess power transfer while whatever techs were in the area ( or riding vehicles aboveground ) would have to go to each affected R142 consist and reboot them. You can imagine the frustration of those riders on trains between President St. and the 'Bush where or trains would be held in stations , turned back at Church or re-routed to Utica or New Lots. It usually affected the more often than the   because the Lex only came down to Flatbush during the rush hours back then. Chalk it up to growing pains that all NTT equipment will probably go through. Carry on.

[Around the Horn]

4 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

When the R142 cars were new they would shut down, DEAD, between Church Avenue and Flatbush. Turned out that the ConEd plant upstairs around Newkirk/Foster was sending it's excess power down to the subway system from time to time. The NTTs sensed an overload condition and shut down. The older equipment never had that problem so there were occasions when there were two R142 consists in the terminal, dead, and a s/b SMEE at Newkirk waiting to proceed. Since there were Bombardier techs at Flatbush or on board some of the revenue trains the procedure was to call ConEd to turn off the excess power transfer while whatever techs were in the area ( or riding vehicles aboveground ) would have to go to each affected R142 consist and reboot them. You can imagine the frustration of those riders on trains between President St. and the 'Bush where or trains would be held in stations , turned back at Church or re-routed to Utica or New Lots. It usually affected the more often than the   because the Lex only came down to Flatbush during the rush hours back then. Chalk it up to growing pains that all NTT equipment will probably go through. Carry on.

Aye yai yai... That sounds awful. At least the 179 isn't doing that...

[Calvin]

3092 is on its way to NYC

[Fan Railer]

lol did we skip a bunch of cars or are they just coming in out of order now?

[Bosco]

1 hour ago, Calvin said:

3092 is on its way to NYC

Damn.  Are the rest of the cars in that set coming too?

 

1 minute ago, Fan Railer said:

lol did we skip a bunch of cars or are they just coming in out of order now?

Wouldn't be surprised if they start to get delivered out of order.  Even one of the factory R188 sets was delivered out of numerical order.

On the topic of electrical issues, they're not limited to Bombardier either (yes, I am partially referring to the R160 in the Rockaways).  Those computers are very sensitive to voltage drops, a problem that older equipment doesn't have.  As Trainmaster said, it's a problem for all NTTs.

[Around the Horn]

26 minutes ago, Bosco said:

Damn.  Are the rest of the cars in that set coming too?

 

Wouldn't be surprised if they start to get delivered out of order.  Even one of the factory R188 sets was delivered out of numerical order.

On the topic of electrical issues, they're not limited to Bombardier either (yes, I am partially referring to the R160 in the Rockaways).  Those computers are very sensitive to voltage drops, a problem that older equipment doesn't have.  As Trainmaster said, it's a problem for all NTTs.

That's a yes. Ive seen a pic of 3091

[MysteriousBtrain]

3090-3093 at 207 St.

[Fan Railer]

 

[Bosco]

Well, it's good to see that Bombardier is finally meeting this end of their deal, even if later than planned.  (They were supposed to work on the production cars while the test trains were here.)  I'm guessing that enough four-car sets will come in first to retire the R42s, then the few five-car sets?

Edited December 15, 2017 by Bosco

[Around the Horn]

So should we expect another delivery Monday?

[Bosco]

7 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

So should we expect another delivery Monday?

According to Dan Rivoli, there's still 8 more cars waiting to be delivered, so they could come in anytime.

[R68OnBroadway]

I'f I'm correct, car deliveries are supposed to be around 1 per day, so we could start getting daily deliveries.

[RailRunRob]

9 hours ago, Bosco said:

On the topic of electrical issues, they're not limited to Bombardier either (yes, I am partially referring to the R160 in the Rockaways).  Those computers are very sensitive to voltage drops, a problem that older equipment doesn't have.  As Trainmaster said, it's a problem for all NTTs.

There are solutions for this. Especially for the Rockaways scenario, I take it that the space between substations(Two different power companies) would be particularly vulnerable for voltage drop. When I was at Kawasaki they had a BPS (Battery Power System) solution. Has the MTA taken a look at this? The Specs on the 142/A and R143 (Kawasaki)  for operation if I remember correctly was 480VDC to peak 780VDC  625V feed (600V nominal) Im sure Bombardier and Alstom have similar operation specs. A BPS system should be able to help with fluctuations in power. Even pulling from regen power via 3rd rail for redistribution. I'll ask next time I'm at 2 Broadway I'm sure they've at least looked at this. If not that's kinda crazy and disheartening.

Edited December 15, 2017 by RailRunRob

[RailRunRob]

I kinda knew it.. And it was Kawasaki...  But it seems they did do a BPS test out that way in 2010 so old news The State and Kawasaki. A friend of mines just emailed a PDF with the results of the testing not sure if it's still in place. I can post it up if anyone's interested.  

(Inserts below)

 

Edited December 15, 2017 by RailRunRob

[Bosco]

6 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

I kinda knew it.. And it was Kawasaki...  But it seems they did do a BPS test out that way in 2010 so old news The State and Kawasaki. A friend of mines just emailed a PDF with the results of the testing not sure if it's still in place. I can post it up if anyone's interested.  

(Inserts below)

 

I remember reading about this.  I wonder why it hasn't been used for more cars.  Perhaps it will be a possibility for the R211.

[Missabassie]

Sooo..... At this point, it seems the just wants to get this painful contract done with. (not that I blame them)

[RailRunRob]

4 hours ago, Bosco said:

I remember reading about this.  I wonder why it hasn't been used for more cars.  Perhaps it will be a possibility for the R211.

No idea this would definitely help stabilize voltage. Every train made from this point on will have an onboard computer. So the computer tripping out isn't going to be relevant for long.. Just saying.

Edited December 16, 2017 by RailRunRob

[VIP]

The R179 already has scratchitti... smh vandalism should hold a stiffer penalty for violators. 

[LGA Link N Train]

Here's a random question that I could ask in 3 diffrent threads 

Would it be good to put the '179's and some 4 car R160 sets on the  and have the use its R68's while swapping northern terminals with the and recouple some R160 4 car sets into 5 car sets (this could be done with the R179's as well which is optional) and leaving the rest of the 4 car sets in the eastern division. This is so that the can have extended service and the could use 600' long cars. And with the remaining R32's leave 'em on the and/or ???

Let me know your feedback

[Lance]

That may be the plan when the Canarsie tunnels shut down in a couple of years. According to various sources, the MTA expects to run longer trains through the duration of the project, specifically 480-foot trains. There are only a few ways of achieving that specific car length, either through the 32s or the A1s/179 four-car sets.

[darkstar8983]

9 hours ago, Lance said:

That may be the plan when the Canarsie tunnels shut down in a couple of years. According to various sources, the MTA expects to run longer trains through the duration of the project, specifically 480-foot trains. There are only a few ways of achieving that specific car length, either through the 32s or the A1s/179 four-car sets.

What will likely happen is the following

- R179 cars to the  and remaining on the  along with some displaced R143s from the

-  will have all R160A-1

-  will be all R46s with some R32s

the s R68/R68A will go to the  and some of its R160s will go to Jamaica for the  so that those R46s can be free for the  

 

the  needs 600 foot trains to accommodate the displaced  riders transferring from the  at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and since there will be a surplus of 8-car trains, well the  will have 480 foot trains, and that way there will be regulation of the overflow of  train commuters overflowing Court Square and Hoyt Schermerhorn. 

 

All the  trains during rush hours will need to operate the full route from Brooklyn to 71 Av and some  trains rerouted to 96 St to accommodate the extra local service on Queens blvd and to not overload the inefficient fumigation at 71 Av and to provide the extra service to Manhattan at Court Square. Unless the  service will be increased at Court Square using CBTC to allow emptier trains to arrive.

Edited December 17, 2017 by darkstar8983

[Bill from Maspeth]

32 minutes ago, darkstar8983 said:

What will likely happen is the following

- R179 cars to the  and remaining on the  along with some displaced R143s from the

-  will have all R160A-1

-  will be all R46s with some R32s

the s R68/R68A will go to the  and some of its R160s will go to Jamaica for the  so that those R46s can be free for the  

 

the  needs 600 foot trains to accommodate the displaced  riders transferring from the  at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and since there will be a surplus of 8-car trains, well the  will have 480 foot trains, and that way there will be regulation of the overflow of  train commuters overflowing Court Square and Hoyt Schermerhorn. 

 

All the  trains during rush hours will need to operate the full route from Brooklyn to 71 Av and some  trains rerouted to 96 St to accommodate the extra local service on Queens blvd and to not overload the inefficient fumigation at 71 Av and to provide the extra service to Manhattan at Court Square. Unless the  service will be increased at Court Square using CBTC to allow emptier trains to arrive.

Who gave you this information?