BUS - Random Thoughts Thread

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I’m surprised the downtown area has as much bus service as it does. Everytime I’m in the downtown area I see the M20, M21, M22 and M55 carry nothing but air. Even before the pandemic those routes wasn’t doing much better from what I recall. Most people just hop on the subway since they are way faster and more frequent. If it wasn’t for the lack of accessible stations some of those routes may not even exist in the way they do. 
 

I personally think the M20 should be eliminated all together. I would just have the M104 run down to 14th street and have the M12 cover the bottom part of the M20’s route. 
 

There are parts of Downtown that have no subway. Battery Park City is a good example, as it is isolated and cut off by the West Side Highway. That's a neighborhood of over 10,000 people that have no subway and need to either get a bus, walk or drive to get to reach the nearest subway. The M20 just runs poorly, as do the other bus lines down there. They are not that frequent. The more you cut back on service, the fewer people use it.

It is easy to look at a map and say cut it until you actually frequent an area and see the transit issues it has.

[NewFlyer 230]

18 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

There are parts of Downtown that have no subway. Battery Park City is a good example, as it is isolated and cut off by the West Side Highway. That's a neighborhood of over 10,000 people that have no subway and need to either get a bus, walk or drive to get to reach the nearest subway. The M20 just runs poorly, as do the other bus lines down there. They are not that frequent. The more you cut back on service, the fewer people use it.

It is easy to look at a map and say cut it until you actually frequent an area and see the transit issues it has.

I’m not suggesting to cut all service from down there but just eliminate the M20 all together and have the M104 (to 14th street) and M12 extended to replace the route. Battery Park would be covered but I would have the M12 do it instead. My reasoning behind it is to connect the far west side with a service that runs downtown without the need for a transfer. Currently both the M11 and M12 terminate at Abingdon Square and anyone who wants to travel south would have to use the  and  . I admit I don’t think the M12 would see a huge boost in ridership along its route on 11th and 12th Aves but I think it would overall make the route more useful in comparison to what we currently have. It would also force the MTA to increase service on the M12 to match what the M20 has. 
 

The only potential bad I see from this proposal is now bus riders would have to transfer at 14th street to complete their trip either north along 8th Ave or south on 7th Ave. 

 

[Calvin]

While boarding the M15-SBS from the first stop at 2nd Av, arriving at 86 St: the eagle team was at the stop. Three doors were opened with three MTA members . Three people were boarded out the bus due to no-show of payment. Occurred at 4:15 PM. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I’m not suggesting to cut all service from down there but just eliminate the M20 all together and have the M104 (to 14th street) and M12 extended to replace the route. Battery Park would be covered but I would have the M12 do it instead. My reasoning behind it is to connect the far west side with a service that runs downtown without the need for a transfer. Currently both the M11 and M12 terminate at Abingdon Square and anyone who wants to travel south would have to use the  and  . I admit I don’t think the M12 would see a huge boost in ridership along its route on 11th and 12th Aves but I think it would overall make the route more useful in comparison to what we currently have. It would also force the MTA to increase service on the M12 to match what the M20 has. 
 

The only potential bad I see from this proposal is now bus riders would have to transfer at 14th street to complete their trip either north along 8th Ave or south on 7th Ave. 

 

The thing is you have the M20 which provides North-South access, the M22, which provides East-West access, and the M9, which provides access to hospitals, City Hall and the like, so each line serves a different purpose. Just getting over there is a huge pain, so any sort of transfer just adds to already long commute. Not having subway access is fine for those that drive over there. The people that I know live over there, they would just drive or send their kids in cabs because it was easier. If I had to do it over again, I personally would drive there.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[MHV9218]

Frankly BPC was better served with the original M6 setup helping the M9 and M20. The M12 is useless and will never have ridership. The M20 should be more frequent, but its ridership is sporadic and people don't rely on it solely because of how bad the headways. It's definitely not a transit desert though. A lot of people rely on the local shuttle bus too. 

[QM1to6Ave]

3 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The thing is you have the M20 which provides North-South access, the M22, which provides East-West access, and the M9, which provides access to hospitals, City Hall and the like, so each line serves a different purpose. Just getting over there is a huge pain, so any sort of transfer just adds to already long commute. Not having subway access is fine for those that drive over there. The people that I know live over there, they would just drive or send their kids in cabs because it was easier. If I had to do it over again, I personally would drive there.

Everyone I know who lives in that area has a car and a parking garage spot. It helps that they are all pretty rich lol. 

One big issue I've seen with the buses there is that when they are routed over single lane or small streets, and there is an ambulance picking someone up or whatnot in the road, the buses just sit there endlessly instead of getting rerouted in real time. 

[SoSpectacular]

9 hours ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

exactly. right now, there are approx. 25-26 runs on the B35... all artics. if you run any combination of 26 artics 24/7, well congratulations, MDBF just shot up in your depot exponentially, and for no good reason other than to add stress (and unnecessary OT) for the mechanics (at least in management's eyes) 

67 runs total on the weekdays!

Also, at times there's not even enough artics available to give out due to some of them being OOS for maintenance. There's been cases where 40-footers have gone out or drivers are stuck waiting for someone to pull in with an artic. I've pulled in from runs only to have the bus I just used pulled right back out!

[B35 via Church]

4 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I’m not suggesting to cut all service from down there but just eliminate the M20 all together and have the M104 (to 14th street) and M12 extended to replace the route. Battery Park would be covered but I would have the M12 do it instead. My reasoning behind it is to connect the far west side with a service that runs downtown without the need for a transfer. Currently both the M11 and M12 terminate at Abingdon Square and anyone who wants to travel south would have to use the  and  . I admit I don’t think the M12 would see a huge boost in ridership along its route on 11th and 12th Aves but I think it would overall make the route more useful in comparison to what we currently have. It would also force the MTA to increase service on the M12 to match what the M20 has. 
 

The only potential bad I see from this proposal is now bus riders would have to transfer at 14th street to complete their trip either north along 8th Ave or south on 7th Ave.

The fact of the matter is that the M20 is an afterthought in BPC... I would leave BPC with basic east-west service to connect with (whatever) subway lines & call it a day... If those patrons don't bother taking the M20, the M12 isn't going to be too much more, or anymore enticing at all - even if the M12 in that scenario in question were to have adequate service be provided on it....

As far as the rest of your suggestion is concerned, this is going to be the unpopular opinion, but I'd end the M20 at 14th st. from the north & have it take over most of the M104... Instead of ending at the old Amsterdam depot site, I'd run it somewhere around the vicinity of CCNY (a couple blocks north) & call it a day

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

The fact of the matter is that the M20 is an afterthought in BPC... I would leave BPC with basic east-west service to connect with (whatever) subway lines & call it a day... If those patrons don't bother taking the M20, the M12 isn't going to be too much more, or anymore enticing at all - even if the M12 in that scenario in question were to have adequate service be provided on it....

As far as the rest of your suggestion is concerned, this is going to be the unpopular opinion, but I'd end the M20 at 14th st. from the north & have it take over most of the M104... Instead of ending at the old Amsterdam depot site, I'd run it somewhere around the vicinity of CCNY (a couple blocks north) & call it a day

All of the truncating of the M104 is why the route isn't what it used to be. I was extremely upset about losing the eastern portion of it and wrote to the Borough President to push to have it restored years ago. I have stopped using it. I take Uber instead when I'm on the Upper West Side and need to head further south and east, which is what I did yesterday.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

9 hours ago, QM1to6Ave said:

Everyone I know who lives in that area has a car and a parking garage spot. It helps that they are all pretty rich lol. 

One big issue I've seen with the buses there is that when they are routed over single lane or small streets, and there is an ambulance picking someone up or whatnot in the road, the buses just sit there endlessly instead of getting rerouted in real time. 

I forget which one it is, I think it was the M22. I got it one Sunday, walked briskly to the stop over by Chambers St. since I know how rare it is to see one. All of the turns and meandering drove me crazy. Just got off and walked to the coffee shop I was going to and them walked to the apartment from there. The other thing that drove me crazy is the wind. It is BRUTAL during the cold months. The doormen in the building I frequented. They earned their tips, opening and closing the door for us. lol

[R10 2952]

Another random thought; the pre-SBS designation of bus routes as Limited vs. regular.

On paper it sure sounded like a good idea, but when I used to ride the Bx1 from time to time back in the 2000s, there was little to no difference in taking the Limited- literally the bus made almost all the stops the regular did.

If they're going to designate a service as Limited, it only makes sense in my opinion if the bus is making, in the case of longer routes like the Bx1 or Bx2, at least 10 less stops than the regular local.

[Lex]

49 minutes ago, R10 2952 said:

Another random thought; the pre-SBS designation of bus routes as Limited vs. regular.

On paper it sure sounded like a good idea, but when I used to ride the Bx1 from time to time back in the 2000s, there was little to no difference in taking the Limited- literally the bus made almost all the stops the regular did.

If they're going to designate a service as Limited, it only makes sense in my opinion if the bus is making, in the case of longer routes like the Bx1 or Bx2, at least 10 less stops than the regular local.

Are you sure you're not confusing time stuck in traffic/at lights with time at bus stops?

Also, if you were riding on Sundays or before the Bx2 was shifted to strictly local service, you likely got a local Bx1.

[R10 2952]

24 minutes ago, Lex said:

Are you sure you're not confusing time stuck in traffic/at lights with time at bus stops?

Also, if you were riding on Sundays or before the Bx2 was shifted to strictly local service, you likely got a local Bx1.

No, it was bus stops on the weekday Bx1 Limited; I even had a printed schedule lying around the house several years ago that showed the Limited made nearly all the designated stops of the local, which goes back to my original point: what's the point of them promoting limited-stop service if it really isn't?

Edited March 4, 2021 by R10 2952

[4 via Mosholu]

33 minutes ago, R10 2952 said:

Another random thought; the pre-SBS designation of bus routes as Limited vs. regular.

On paper it sure sounded like a good idea, but when I used to ride the Bx1 from time to time back in the 2000s, there was little to no difference in taking the Limited- literally the bus made almost all the stops the regular did.

If they're going to designate a service as Limited, it only makes sense in my opinion if the bus is making, in the case of longer routes like the Bx1 or Bx2, at least 10 less stops than the regular local.

The local buses make all stops, while the LIMITED buses make stops at busy intersections and heavily used stops. You might be talking about the way that the LIMITED runs near the ends as they are local near the ends of their routes, given how locals make stops within the LIMITED path. To be honest though, the LIMITED was designed to save time over the local. But with the traffic changes over the years, the LIMITED runs like it was the local.

Some of the LIMITED routes run all day (M2, 101) or even six days a week (Bx1 since September 2010) (their local counterparts do not run at those times), they can run in both directions during rush hours (Bx36), they can run peak direction service in both directions (M1, M4 - this was the original interpretation of it), they can run weekdays (M5), they can run in one direction (B49 from Franklin Avenue/Fulton Street), they can run in between the locals (like the Bx12 and the M15 did prior to their conversion), and they can have different numbers to differentiate between the local and LIMITED (Staten Island is a perfect example of this; where you got a 53 you switch it to a 93).

[bobtehpanda]

4 minutes ago, 4 via Mosholu said:

The local buses make all stops, while the LIMITED buses make stops at busy intersections and heavily used stops. You might be talking about the way that the LIMITED runs near the ends as they are local near the ends of their routes, given how locals make stops within the LIMITED path. To be honest though, the LIMITED was designed to save time over the local. But with the traffic changes over the years, the LIMITED runs like it was the local.

Some of the LIMITED routes run all day (M2, 101) or even six days a week (Bx1 since September 2010) (their local counterparts do not run at those times), they can run in both directions during rush hours (Bx36), they can run peak direction service in both directions (M1, M4 - this was the original interpretation of it), they can run weekdays (M5), they can run in one direction (B49 from Franklin Avenue/Fulton Street), they can run in between the locals (like the Bx12 and the M15 did prior to their conversion), and they can have different numbers to differentiate between the local and LIMITED (Staten Island is a perfect example of this; where you got a 53 you switch it to a 93).

I mean, there are definitely LTD routes that have weird clusters of local-spaced stops. This is probably the worst in Manhattan; to use the M4 as an example, everywhere else the bus is fine with more or less stopping every 7-10 blocks, but around 110 St you have stops at 110/Lenox, 108/5th, 106/5th, and 102/5th; and that's in the middle of the route.

[MHV9218]

6 minutes ago, 4 via Mosholu said:

Some of the LIMITED routes run all day (M2, 101) or even six days a week (Bx1 since September 2010) (their local counterparts do not run at those times), they can run in both directions during rush hours (Bx36), they can run peak direction service in both directions (M1, M4 - this was the original interpretation of it), they can run weekdays (M5), they can run in one direction (B49 from Franklin Avenue/Fulton Street), they can run in between the locals (like the Bx12 and the M15 did prior to their conversion), and they can have different numbers to differentiate between the local and LIMITED (Staten Island is a perfect example of this; where you got a 53 you switch it to a 93).

One funny thing about the M2 is that for a decade-plus the schedules have said it runs local at the ends of the route (below 14th and above somewhere, I forget where, in Harlem), and yet that's never been true. Occasionally you get an op confused by it though.

[4 via Mosholu]

1 hour ago, MHV9218 said:

One funny thing about the M2 is that for a decade-plus the schedules have said it runs local at the ends of the route (below 14th and above somewhere, I forget where, in Harlem), and yet that's never been true. Occasionally you get an op confused by it though.

That is above 109th Street; yet you are right in saying that it ain't true.

[B35 via Church]

22 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

All of the truncating of the M104 is why the route isn't what it used to be. I was extremely upset about losing the eastern portion of it and wrote to the Borough President to push to have it restored years ago. I have stopped using it. I take Uber instead when I'm on the Upper West Side and need to head further south and east, which is what I did yesterday.

Outside of where it ends in Harlem, the only problem I have with the thing is the fact that it ends at PABT.... I personally had no qualms about it having been taken off 42nd....

As an aside, the M42 should've been given commensurate service after that M104 truncation though...

12 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

Another random thought; the pre-SBS designation of bus routes as Limited vs. regular.

On paper it sure sounded like a good idea, but when I used to ride the Bx1 from time to time back in the 2000s, there was little to no difference in taking the Limited- literally the bus made almost all the stops the regular did.

If they're going to designate a service as Limited, it only makes sense in my opinion if the bus is making, in the case of longer routes like the Bx1 or Bx2, at least 10 less stops than the regular local.

Although I get it, it's the very issue I have with the B35 LTD b/w New York & Flatbush (av's).... However, I'm not going to use those anomalies with certain portions of LTD routes to amend my stance that SBS is/was mostly, hype.... At the very least, there was no reason that bus lanes couldn't have been created for LTD routes back around the time when they first rolled about.... It's almost as if the MTA wanted kudos & attaboys for being late as shit; as if the intricacies of what makes the SBS the SBS was groundbreaking or something....

Yet another example of how behind the MTA is with things.....

[Q43LTD]

14 hours ago, MHV9218 said:

One funny thing about the M2 is that for a decade-plus the schedules have said it runs local at the ends of the route (below 14th and above somewhere, I forget where, in Harlem), and yet that's never been true. Occasionally you get an op confused by it though.

The M2 runs local north of 110. If I remember correctly, the 2 had locals ending at 110 while the limiteds went to the Village 

[MHV9218]

1 hour ago, Q43LTD said:

The M2 runs local north of 110. If I remember correctly, the 2 had locals ending at 110 while the limiteds went to the Village 

Does it actually though? That's just an artifact of the schedule in my experience. Definitely below 14th, 90% of buses run Limited those last stops.

[paulrivera]

I took the M5 when it ran downtown a few times and it was a mixed bag too: iinm it was supposed to make all stops south of 14th Street (or was it Houston? I literally don't remember) and there were a couple times where the bus would go Chambers-Worth-Canal and didnt make the "local" stops between Worth Street and Canal.

[QM1to6Ave]

1 hour ago, MHV9218 said:

Does it actually though? That's just an artifact of the schedule in my experience. Definitely below 14th, 90% of buses run Limited those last stops.

 

26 minutes ago, paulrivera said:

I took the M5 when it ran downtown a few times and it was a mixed bag too: iinm it was supposed to make all stops south of 14th Street (or was it Houston? I literally don't remember) and there were a couple times where the bus would go Chambers-Worth-Canal and didnt make the "local" stops between Worth Street and Canal.

Geez, the MTA can't even be clear about what stops a bus should make, and then they wonder why these buses are viewed as the "redheaded stepchildren", so to speak. They really don't seem to give a damn about Manhattan local bus service

[MHV9218]

35 minutes ago, paulrivera said:

I took the M5 when it ran downtown a few times and it was a mixed bag too: iinm it was supposed to make all stops south of 14th Street (or was it Houston? I literally don't remember) and there were a couple times where the bus would go Chambers-Worth-Canal and didnt make the "local" stops between Worth Street and Canal.

 

3 minutes ago, QM1to6Ave said:

Geez, the MTA can't even be clear about what stops a bus should make, and then they wonder why these buses are viewed as the "redheaded stepchildren", so to speak. They really don't seem to give a damn about Manhattan local bus service

Definitely some embarrassing mistakes. I have no idea what the M5 below 8th Street is actually supposed to do these days. I think it stops everywhere? About 1/4 of M2/M5s stop at 12th St., 10th St., etc. below 14th St. and have for the past decade-plus, since the schedule has always been printed wrong and indicated it. They don't take buses too seriously. At least they finally changed the M8 to Chelsea signs.

[Lex]

19 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

 

Definitely some embarrassing mistakes. I have no idea what the M5 below 8th Street is actually supposed to do these days. I think it stops everywhere? About 1/4 of M2/M5s stop at 12th St., 10th St., etc. below 14th St. and have for the past decade-plus, since the schedule has always been printed wrong and indicated it. They don't take buses too seriously. At least they finally changed the M8 to Chelsea signs.

Nothing, that's what.

The MTA hasn't sent it south of 31st Street since they split the route.

[MHV9218]

Just now, Lex said:

Nothing, that's what.

The MTA hasn't sent it south of 31st Street since they split the route.

Lol, I'm dating myself. But for those bunch of years when it was the 5 and the 55, no clarity.