Planned Subway Service Changes

[Lance]

There's probably some kind of coding in place at RCC that automatically changes those internal route codes into the correct ones for the in-station clocks. What's being sent out to SubwayTime and the third-party apps obviously does not have this fix, resulting in these quirks. And they were doing so well...

[Lawrence St]

I still don't understand why they aren't sending the to 137th St. In my opinion, this option would allow an easier lay up process. 

And also, I think they should split the in the Bronx during this weekend as well, Dyre Av to East 180th St and 241st St to Flatbush.

And for the reasoning why they didn't want to suspend service is because people would still wait for the , that's a terrible reason. When they suspend the , people know that the isn't running and almost every single passenger on the A divison looks at the countdown clock when they enter the platform, and if all they see are trains, along with constant announcements saying the and isn't running, I'm pretty sure they will know the isn't running.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Lawrence St

[Lance]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

I still don't understand why they aren't sending the to 137th St. In my opinion, this option would allow an easier lay up process. 

And also, I think they should split the in the Bronx during this weekend as well, Dyre Av to East 180th St and 241st St to Flatbush.

And for the reasoning why they didn't want to suspend service is because people would still wait for the , that's a terrible reason. When they suspend the , people know that the isn't running and almost every single passenger on the A divison looks at the countdown clock when they enter the platform, and if all they see are trains, along with constant announcements saying the and isn't running, I'm pretty sure they will know the isn't running.

Actually, it just makes the trip longer with no real benefits. If I'm not mistaken, the  trains relay using the middle track at 103 Street. Moving the terminal to City College just moves the relay point to just south of 145 St-Broadway. It would give the riders between 137 Street and 96 Street additional service, but with both running to South Ferry, there's no variety in services here.

As for splitting up the Bronx services, that's essentially what they did, just labeling the shuttle as trains since that's what the official schedules call them. The  always runs to 241 Street when Lenox Ave service is suspended with Dyre Ave service relegated to shuttle status. Upper White Plains Rd is the more demanding service, hence why it always receives direct service to/from Manhattan.

Finally, if you suspend the  along with the , the  will be absolutely slammed with 7th Avenue riders along with anyone displaced by whatever's happening on Central Park West at the time. The is a supplemental line, more so since it only runs between 148 Street and 14 Street. It makes sense to suspend it when work necessitates it. The  even shortened to run between South Ferry and 96 Street, is still a primary line because it along with the carry the bulk of 7th Avenue ridership.

[Lawrence St]

58 minutes ago, Lance said:

Actually, it just makes the trip longer with no real benefits. If I'm not mistaken, the  trains relay using the middle track at 103 Street. Moving the terminal to City College just moves the relay point to just south of 145 St-Broadway. It would give the riders between 137 Street and 96 Street additional service, but with both running to South Ferry, there's no variety in services here.

As for splitting up the Bronx services, that's essentially what they did, just labeling the shuttle as trains since that's what the official schedules call them. The  always runs to 241 Street when Lenox Ave service is suspended with Dyre Ave service relegated to shuttle status. Upper White Plains Rd is the more demanding service, hence why it always receives direct service to/from Manhattan.

Finally, if you suspend the  along with the , the  will be absolutely slammed with 7th Avenue riders along with anyone displaced by whatever's happening on Central Park West at the time. The is a supplemental line, more so since it only runs between 148 Street and 14 Street. It makes sense to suspend it when work necessitates it. The  even shortened to run between South Ferry and 96 Street, is still a primary line because it along with the carry the bulk of 7th Avenue ridership.

If I may counter argue your last point,

The only difference between the and on 7th Av is that the runs express between Penn Station and 96th St, while the does not. Other then that, the is literally a shortened train. 

I've ridden these trains last week, they are near empty! Most riders, if coming from below 42nd St, only use the to get to Times Sq and take the to the (5). The other majority of riders above 42ns St either transfer to the regardless, or take the shuttle buses and 96th St.

If we were to suspend the (2), here are the good things that would come from it:

- The extra cars from the would go to the (1), boosting service as needed and elimiating the need for switching at 34th St as well as the need to relay trains at 103rd St.

- Passengers now have the option of taking the to 116th St, where the M60 is available for service to Lenox, CPW and Lexington Av.

- Eliminates the confusion between what train is running express and local.

- Eliminates the confusion at 96th St as to why the is terminating here and where shuttle buses are, further delaying service to relay.

 

[Lance]

If I may counter your counterpoint...

Just because the trains you rode on were empty, it does not mean every  train ran with no passengers. Besides, even if you were to completely suspend the and run those trains as  trains, where will they run? Will they run all the way to 242 Street or will they be truncated somewhere else along the line? If it's the latter as is more likely since running double service between 242 Street and South Ferry would be overkill, you're running the risk of confusing the riders even more than they already are. As you and everyone else on this forum are aware, the average rider does not have knowledge of every short turn and switch location, nor do they really care. Beyond actually just suspending service and running truncated trains, you have to educate riders to the service changes. Stating that  train service is suspended between E 180 Street and 96 Street and that riders should use shuttle buses provided for service between the Bronx and Manhattan is easier to convey than it is to inform said riders that a)  service is completely suspended in Manhattan and b) some  trains are terminating at 96 Street / 137 Street / wherever because internally, they are in fact shortened trains.

As for your other points concerning certain stops and shuttle buses, that will not change whether the service change is done as it is presently or under your proposal. Riders can still take the M60 Select at 116 Street via the  and passengers will continue to wonder where the shuttle buses are being staged if their destinations are along Lenox Ave or in the Bronx. Removing the from  the equation does not make a difference here.

[Lawrence St]

1 hour ago, Lance said:

If I may counter your counterpoint...

Just because the trains you rode on were empty, it does not mean every  train ran with no passengers. Besides, even if you were to completely suspend the and run those trains as  trains, where will they run? Will they run all the way to 242 Street or will they be truncated somewhere else along the line? If it's the latter as is more likely since running double service between 242 Street and South Ferry would be overkill, you're running the risk of confusing the riders even more than they already are. As you and everyone else on this forum are aware, the average rider does not have knowledge of every short turn and switch location, nor do they really care. Beyond actually just suspending service and running truncated trains, you have to educate riders to the service changes. Stating that  train service is suspended between E 180 Street and 96 Street and that riders should use shuttle buses provided for service between the Bronx and Manhattan is easier to convey than it is to inform said riders that a)  service is completely suspended in Manhattan and b) some  trains are terminating at 96 Street / 137 Street / wherever because internally, they are in fact shortened trains.

As for your other points concerning certain stops and shuttle buses, that will not change whether the service change is done as it is presently or under your proposal. Riders can still take the M60 Select at 116 Street via the  and passengers will continue to wonder where the shuttle buses are being staged if their destinations are along Lenox Ave or in the Bronx. Removing the from  the equation does not make a difference here.

If I may counter your counter argument to my counter argument :

False, when they were doing that / G.O a couple of weeks ago, they completely suspended service and had those extra trains turning around at Broadway Junction, internally as trips. I make this same point for the weekend as well, it's essentially a shortened train, and they would be better off suspending service on weekends and using those cars to add extra trips to the .

And my plan would actually help improve operations a lot.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Lawrence St

[MysteriousBtrain]

6 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

If I may counter your counter argument to my counter argument :

False, when they were doing that / G.O a couple of weeks ago, they completely suspended service and had those extra trains turning around at Broadway Junction, internally as trips. I make this same point for the weekend as well, it's essentially a shortened train, and they would be better off suspending service on weekends and using those cars to add extra trips to the .

And my plan would actually help improve operations a lot.

What's the difference between suspending a route and replacing it with "extra service" with another line? You still get confused riders either way.

At least with a shortened route, you at least get less people cursing out the damn system for anything and everything.

[FlushingExpress]

I find it dumb the  still runs local between Times Square and Chambers during this suspension when the  is not running, thus there are no trains holding them up on the express tracks at 14th Street, meaning it can run express on the entire 7th Avenue segment instead of just north of Times Square which only saves 3-4 minutes from the local. I also find it dumb the  and  need to switch routes north of East 180th Street during the Clark Street Tunnel closure being that the Dyre Avenue Line is not much shorter than the northern White Plains Road Line. In fact, it only takes about 4-6 extra minutes for a train to travel between East 180th and Wakefield compared to one traveling between East 180th and Dyre, hence it should not be a huge problem for train crews.

Another G.O. I find dumb even though it provides great photo/video opportunities is the  and  swap in Brooklyn. it causes massive confusion for riders, especially since Grand Street, Sunset Park and West End Line have many riders who do not understand English. If the TA needs to do work on the 7th Avenue-53rd Street area, they should leave the  alone and run the in two sections: between the Bronx and via the  after 59th Street and  after West 4th Street to 2nd Avenue, and between Brooklyn and West 4th Street/Broadway-Lafayette Street on its normal route. Heck the  can even run to 96th Street/2nd Avenue if there is no work being done on the 6th Avenue express tracks.

Another G.O. I do not get, how come on weekends when there is an express reroute on the Woodlawn Line, some  trains terminate at 125th while on weekdays for same reroute all  trains can go to Woodlawn? Waiting 16+ minutes for a train on an entire line can be a huge pain. and why have  trains been running local in Manhattan on weekends lately while the  can still run express?

[Lance]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

If I may counter your counter argument to my counter argument :

False, when they were doing that / G.O a couple of weeks ago, they completely suspended service and had those extra trains turning around at Broadway Junction, internally as trips. I make this same point for the weekend as well, it's essentially a shortened train, and they would be better off suspending service on weekends and using those cars to add extra trips to the .

And my plan would actually help improve operations a lot.

This was during the New Years' 53rd Street closure. If I recall correctly, people were so confused by the mislabeled  trains that an internal memo went out to call the short turns as trains.

1 hour ago, FlushingExpress said:

I find it dumb the  still runs local between Times Square and Chambers during this suspension when the  is not running, thus there are no trains holding them up on the express tracks at 14th Street, meaning it can run express on the entire 7th Avenue segment instead of just north of Times Square which only saves 3-4 minutes from the local. I also find it dumb the  and  need to switch routes north of East 180th Street during the Clark Street Tunnel closure being that the Dyre Avenue Line is not much shorter than the northern White Plains Road Line. In fact, it only takes about 4-6 extra minutes for a train to travel between East 180th and Wakefield compared to one traveling between East 180th and Dyre, hence it should not be a huge problem for train crews.

Another G.O. I find dumb even though it provides great photo/video opportunities is the  and  swap in Brooklyn. it causes massive confusion for riders, especially since Grand Street, Sunset Park and West End Line have many riders who do not understand English. If the TA needs to do work on the 7th Avenue-53rd Street area, they should leave the  alone and run the in two sections: between the Bronx and via the  after 59th Street and  after West 4th Street to 2nd Avenue, and between Brooklyn and West 4th Street/Broadway-Lafayette Street on its normal route. Heck the  can even run to 96th Street/2nd Avenue if there is no work being done on the 6th Avenue express tracks.

Another G.O. I do not get, how come on weekends when there is an express reroute on the Woodlawn Line, some  trains terminate at 125th while on weekdays for same reroute all  trains can go to Woodlawn? Waiting 16+ minutes for a train on an entire line can be a huge pain. and why have  trains been running local in Manhattan on weekends lately while the  can still run express?

The  continues to run local as that is presently the normal weekend service. The is scheduled to run local between Times Square and Chambers St on weekends and it makes no sense to further complicate an already complicated service change. Regarding the  /  swap in the Bronx, it's done both to keep to keep the service between terminals the same and so the train crews travel the same distance on their routes. Normal weekday service on the  runs from 241 Street to Flatbush Av. With Clark St closed on the weekends, the , extended to Flatbush Av, must run to 241 Street to provide similar service. On the crew side, while Dyre Ave and upper White Plains Rd are almost equidistant lengths, the length of the total route between terminals for the and are not. Dyre Av to South Ferry is almost the same as Dyre Av to Bowling Green, hence why it runs as a train. Ditto for the current  runs.

As for the / switcheroo, it's being done to give both the West End and Culver lines continuous service between Manhattan and Brooklyn. The previous service change where the ran via 8th Avenue to the World Trade Center or 2 Avenue split the line and forced riders to change for the  trains, which usually have to run local in Brooklyn to accommodate the all-times express along 4th Avenue terminating at Atlantic Av, for continuing service. Under the present service change, nobody loses their ride to/from Manhattan.

Finally, some trains are terminating at 125 Street during Jerome Ave work to avoid a conga line in the Bronx. Those trains running express between 149 St-Grand Concourse and Burnside Av are likely not flying past the local stops at 70mph. Rather than have trains on top of each other due to flagging slowdowns, it makes much more sense to turn some trains some place else where they won't get in the way. That's partly why the will run local in Manhattan when the runs express, though when that happens, usually the is also running local for part of the line due to track work on the northern half of Lexington Ave.

[Lawrence St]

21 minutes ago, Lance said:

This was during the New Years' 53rd Street closure. If I recall correctly, people were so confused by the mislabeled  trains that an internal memo went out to call the short turns as trains.

The  continues to run local as that is presently the normal weekend service. The is scheduled to run local between Times Square and Chambers St on weekends and it makes no sense to further complicate an already complicated service change. Regarding the  /  swap in the Bronx, it's done both to keep to keep the service between terminals the same and so the train crews travel the same distance on their routes. Normal weekday service on the  runs from 241 Street to Flatbush Av. With Clark St closed on the weekends, the , extended to Flatbush Av, must run to 241 Street to provide similar service. On the crew side, while Dyre Ave and upper White Plains Rd are almost equidistant lengths, the length of the total route between terminals for the and are not. Dyre Av to South Ferry is almost the same as Dyre Av to Bowling Green, hence why it runs as a train. Ditto for the current  runs.

As for the / switcheroo, it's being done to give both the West End and Culver lines continuous service between Manhattan and Brooklyn. The previous service change where the ran via 8th Avenue to the World Trade Center or 2 Avenue split the line and forced riders to change for the  trains, which usually have to run local in Brooklyn to accommodate the all-times express along 4th Avenue terminating at Atlantic Av, for continuing service. Under the present service change, nobody loses their ride to/from Manhattan.

Finally, some trains are terminating at 125 Street during Jerome Ave work to avoid a conga line in the Bronx. Those trains running express between 149 St-Grand Concourse and Burnside Av are likely not flying past the local stops at 70mph. Rather than have trains on top of each other due to flagging slowdowns, it makes much more sense to turn some trains some place else where they won't get in the way. That's partly why the will run local in Manhattan when the runs express, though when that happens, usually the is also running local for part of the line due to track work on the northern half of Lexington Ave.

When did this memo go out? I could've sworn that for the whole week, all of those trains were signed up as trains.

But I can see why passengers got confused, all of the countdown clocks along Nassau still displayed trains to both Broadway Junction and Essex St, when a train would actually pull into the station.

And to whoever said that my idea would only confuse people more, it's the opposite. This would make this G.O a lot more easier to understand. Take a look at these planned service changes poster I made compared to the real one:

My plan:

No trains between South Ferry & East 180 St

Weekend, March 30th to April 1st

 trains and free shuttle buses provide alternate service.

trains operate between Dyre Av and East 180 St, the last stop.

trains make all stops between South Ferry and 96 St, running local. Some 242 St-bound  trains will end at 137 St.

trains make all stops between 241 St and 149 St-Grand Concourse.

*No trains at this time.

 

Their plan:

No trains between 96 St & East 180 St

Weekend, March 30th to April 1st

trains and free shuttle buses provide alternate service.

trains operate in two sections:

Dyre Av to East 180 St

96 St to South Ferry, running express between 96 St & 34 St-Penn Station.

trains make all stops between 241 St and 149 St-Grand Concourse.

*No trains at this time.

 

You tell me which is more confusing.

[Daniel The Cool]

57 minutes ago, Lance said:

As for the / switcheroo, it's being done to give both the West End and Culver lines continuous service between Manhattan and Brooklyn. The previous service change where the ran via 8th Avenue to the World Trade Center or 2 Avenue split the line and forced riders to change for the  trains, which usually have to run local in Brooklyn to accommodate the all-times express along 4th Avenue terminating at Atlantic Av, for continuing service. Under the present service change, nobody loses their ride to/from Manhattan.

Actually when they did the  split G.O, they were doing work on the Bridge and Grand Street as well which was why they had the Train run in two sections. The  swap actually eliminates the need of another old somewhat common G.O when they had Trains run in two sections running local via 8th Avenue southbound ending at 2nd Avenue while the trains from Coney Island Island ended at West 4th Street. 

[Coney Island Av]

Actually, if you wanna replace the  with the , why don't we replace the 42 St Shuttle with the ??

Yeah, that will totally be awesome!

(sarcasm) 

[RR503]

5 minutes ago, Daniel The Cool said:

Actually when they did the  split G.O, they were doing work on the Bridge and Grand Street as well which was why they had the Train run in two sections. The  swap actually eliminates the need of another old somewhat common G.O when they had Trains run in two sections running local via 8th Avenue southbound ending at 2nd Avenue while the trains from Coney Island Island ended at West 4th Street. 

Way back in the day (and I mean way back, like the ‘80s), when they did these  GOs during late nights, they’d run the  through Chrystie to Essex, reverse, and through the Nassau Loop to Brooklyn. I think those were the last revenue moves through Chrystie before the orange .  

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

 

Their plan:

No trains between 96 St & East 180 St

Weekend, March 30th to April 1st

trains and free shuttle buses provide alternate service.

trains operate in two sections:

Dyre Av to East 180 St

96 St to South Ferry, running express between 96 St & 34 St-Penn Station.

trains make all stops between 241 St and 149 St-Grand Concourse.

*No trains at this time.

 

You tell me which is more confusing.

The MTA was pretty sneaky on this service change. After 10-ish, there was no  train service until the next morning. Additionally, when the trains were suppose to run, I saw one just going down to South Ferry NIS. I think that if they mentioned to take the  , people would be up in arms and/or complain about the lack of service. With this change, they don't have to worry about it as much. 

[Lawrence St]

1 hour ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

The MTA was pretty sneaky on this service change. After 10-ish, there was no  train service until the next morning. Additionally, when the trains were suppose to run, I saw one just going down to South Ferry NIS. I think that if they mentioned to take the  , people would be up in arms and/or complain about the lack of service. With this change, they don't have to worry about it as much. 

I mean I can see why, the late night  is literally, as I said, a  !!

[Lawrence St]

Take a look at this more detailed service change proposal as compared to their's:

Their's:

TRACK REPLACEMENT
 No trains between 96 St and E 180 St

trains and  free shuttle buses provide alternate service
Weekend, 11:30 PM Fri to 5 AM Mon, Mar 30 - Apr 2

service operates in two sections:
  1. Between South Ferry and 96 St
  2. Between E 180 St and Dyre Av

trains make all stops between 149 St-Grand Concourse and 241 St.

Express buses operate nonstop between 96 St and 149 St-Grand Concourse.
Local buses make all  stops between 96 St and 149 St-Grand Concourse.

• Transfer between trains and shuttle buses at 96 St.
• Transfer between and  trains via the 42 Street Shuttle or  train.
• Transfer between trains and  shuttle buses at 149 St-Grand Concourse.
• Transfer between and trains at E 180 St.

Show Shuttle Bus Stops

Note: No trains running during this time.

 

Mine:

TRACK REPLACEMENT
Extra service is provided between South Ferry and 137 St 

Weekend, 11:30 PM Fri to 5 AM Mon, Mar 30 - Apr 2
Note: No trains running during this time.

TRACK REPLACEMENT
 No trains between South Ferry and E 180 St

  trains and  free shuttle buses provide alternate service
Weekend, 11:30 PM Fri to 5 AM Mon, Mar 30 - Apr 2

service operates between E 180 St and Dyre Av

trains make all  stops between South Ferry and 96 St.
trains make all stops between 149 St-Grand Concourse and 241 St.

Express buses operate nonstop between 96 St and 149 St-Grand Concourse.
Local buses make all  stops between 96 St and 149 St-Grand Concourse.

• Transfer between  trains and shuttle buses at 96 St.
• Transfer between  and  trains via the 42 Street Shuttle or  train.
• Transfer between trains and  shuttle buses at 149 St-Grand Concourse.
• Transfer between and trains at E 180 St.

Show Shuttle Bus Stops

Note: No trains running during this time.

 

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

39 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

I mean I can see why, the late night  is literally, as I said, a  !!

Yeah, but people still travel late night, especially on Saturday nights/Sunday Mornings. IDK how the  held down 7th Avenue alone that night, if there were no or  trains.

Edited March 29, 2018 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Far rockaway]

An interesting weekend G.O Apr 21-22

TRACK REPLACEMENT

No J trains between Marcy Av and Broadway Junction
No M trains between Essex St and Broadway Junction
 

Free shuttle buses operate between broadway junction and marcy ave

J service operates in two sections

Between Jamaica center and broadway junction

Between Marcy Ave and Chambers street

[Lance]

@Lawrence St: Rather than quote a couple of lengthy posts, I'll just summarize my overall point. It's obvious that both you and I, and probably a lot of the members here, will understand either one of the service changes you posted. However, most riders are not that learned about the system, which is why the KISS principles play a big part in service changes. Or they should at least. Take out both the and , and run some trains as s to 137 St-City College will confuse not only riders looking for Lenox Ave service, but service beyond City College as well. Yes, the is almost a completely redundant line as it presently runs with the truncated service to 96 Street. On the flip-side, it localizes the confusion to only the line, whereas yours would add confusion to the as well.

[Jemorie]

Let me take a moment to be honest...I don't really like the  and  Bronx terminal swapping everytime the Clark Street Tubes are closed either...so I mostly agree with Lawrence St and FlushingExpress. I'd also run the  every 4 minutes on its entire line in both directions or just a part of its line (more preferably the former) in the  and  's absences whenever the Lenox Avenue Line is shut down alongside the Clark Street Tubes.

I get what you're saying though, Lance.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Jemorie

[Lawrence St]

4 minutes ago, Jemorie said:

Let me take a moment to be honest...I don't really like the  and  Bronx terminal swapping everytime the Clark Street Tubes are closed either...so I mostly agree with Lawrence St and FlushingExpress. I'd also run the  every 4 minutes on its entire line in both directions or just a part of its line (more preferably the former) in the  and  's absences whenever the Lenox Avenue Line is shut down alongside the Clark Street Tubes.

I get what you're saying though, Lance.

Well they do it for "crew" purposes as those  trains are  crews and blah blah you get the point.

It;s better to suspend the  because when passengers realize that the  isn't running, they will run and try to find another travel alternative, as opposed to not knowing about the service change until they get to 96th St.

[Eric B]

2 hours ago, Far rockaway said:

An interesting weekend G.O Apr 21-22

TRACK REPLACEMENT

No J trains between Marcy Av and Broadway Junction
No M trains between Essex St and Broadway Junction
 

Free shuttle buses operate between broadway junction and marcy ave

J service operates in two sections

Between Jamaica center and broadway junction

Between Marcy Ave and Chambers street

Obviously, when they're tying the new viaduct tracks into the line. Built up new structure to just short of the connection, and laying the tracks now; just have to connect it.

[Lawrence St]

Look what I found digging through the first MTA website:

https://imgur.com/a/XbIja

 

[Union Tpke]

This is interesting.

TRACK MAINTENANCE
Service operates between 148 St and 34 St-Penn Station 

Nights, 11:45 PM to 5 AM, Mon to Fri, Apr 16 - 20
______________________________

[kosciusko]

No Coney-Island bound  service on the Manhattan bridge because of "track replacement."

TRACK REPLACEMENT  Coney Island-bound  (and ) trains run via the  from Canal St to Atlantic Av-Barclays Ctr

Also  and  service is swapped in Brooklyn.