Metro-North passenger train derails in NYC

[mfs NJT459]

To make things worse, especially when cross-honoring is in effect on the Pascack Valley and Port Jervis Line, the Port Jervis Line is "suspended in both directions due to a bridge condition. Bus service provided to passengers Harriman west only."

http://new.mta.info/status/MetroNorth/PortJervis/23100549

[Mtatransit]

Still it makes no sense, UNLESS THE TRAIN HAS NO SPEED READING, the operator and its family said that he always keep within the speed limit if the train reach 75 mph he should have slow down alittle, how does he not realize that the train was traveling 82 mph. I feel so bad especially when going to Rockefeller center. AND investigation showed no sight of brake problems.

[RailRunRob]

Still it makes no sense, UNLESS THE TRAIN HAS NO SPEED READING, the operator and its family said that he always keep within the speed limit if the train reach 75 mph he should have slow down alittle, how does he not realize that the train was traveling 82 mph. I feel so bad especially when going to Rockefellar center. AND investigation showed no sight of brake problems.

Rockefeller Center?

[Burrstone]

82 miles an hour ? Good God. If this turns out to be human error his career is finished....

 

Career?  IF he's at fault people are dead because of his actions or negligence...  He'd be lucky to escape prison...

 

If it is operator error he'll be lucky if it's only his career that's finished. Depending on the circumstances they could charge him with criminally negligent homicide. 

 

Whether they will, and even whether the cause of the incident is operator error, are of course yet to be seen. 

 

IF he is at at fault no doubt he should be charged, bus drivers and truck drivers are charged regularly why should a train operators negligence be any different?   His  actions caused 4 people to die and many other hurt, so many peoples lives have been impacted...  ,..and he just walks away?  I know, I know, he'll have to live with this everyday as if that's punishment enough, get the violin ready. lol

 

I hate to say it but this guy is toast, Schumer and others will be coming at him like a firing squad doing 82 makes him negligent, it will be argued that his speeding contributed to the crash or even caused it.  Even if it was determined that it was a mechanical failure it will be argued that speed contributed to the accident...  Would the train still have derailed if he was doing the legal speed?  If he was going so fast why did wait to brake until he had no other options if a malfunction occurred?  More negligence...

 

The is screwed either way, whether it is their operator who was at fault or their train malfunctioning, on top of their operator was blatantly breaking the rules doing 82...

 

Doesn't matter because there's never a right time to complain about comfort.  How dare me do such a thing... I applaud the guy that said his commute was hell on earth, as he was 3 hours late for work.  

 

I'd rather be 3 hours late for work than dead!

 

Another piece, He didn't begin to brake until 5 Seconds before the curve itself.

 

 

On a side note, how is compensation working out for those affected directly (injury claims, death, etc.) and those affected by service outage? Sounds like the MTA is going to have to shell out quite a few bucks in this instance.

 

I was thinking about this weeks ago, since the MNRR and LIRR doesn't have passenger information like Amtrak or an airline whats stopping an unscrupulous person from saying they were on the train from cashing in? 

 

Only the locomotive has dynamic brakes.

 

Regarding the 0 psi brake pressure, it seems that the brake pipe pressure is being described. When that drops to 0 that means an emergency application of the brakes was made. What was not stated was the brake cylinder pressure, or how much air was physically on the brake mechanism. For the equipment it should be between 45 and 60 PSI for a full service application.

 

Would this be like a panic stop or something was not right with the brakes so an emergency braking application occurred?     For those who have operated trains when should the brakes first be applied (seconds before the curve) and how soon before the curve would an emergency brake application been made if the operator applied the brakes but there was a problem...  

 

Even if there was a mechanical failure should a train be going so fast before a curve that if a problem occurs everyone is SOL?  Kinda scary...

 

Still it makes no sense, UNLESS THE TRAIN HAS NO SPEED READING, the operator and its family said that he always keep within the speed limit if the train reach 75 mph he should have slow down alittle, how does he not realize that the train was traveling 82 mph. I feel so bad especially when going to Rockefellar center. AND investigation showed no sight of brake problems.

 

Honest to god what do you expect him and his family to say?  That he always speeds and continually puts people at risk?  lol come on, my family has no idea what I do at work and I assume his family has no idea what he does as practice at work, it's assumption and ass covering...  I have no idea what this did at work, I have no idea if he was the safest or most dangerous but I'm not putting any stockinto what he or family says after an accident like this...

[RTS CNG Command]

Doesn't matter because there's never a right time to complain about comfort.  How dare me do such a thing... I applaud the guy that said his commute was hell on earth, as he was 3 hours late for work.  

Yeah, how dare you disrespect the four deceased people and countless others who were injured and shaken up from the crash.

 

The shuttle alternative is an emergency situation. The MTA has no time worrying about people feeling comfortable, because this is an emergency. Their lone worry right now is to get the people to and fro safely any way they can. Bowel-moving about comfort should be the last thing the MTA (and everyone commuting, I'll add, including yourself) has on its mind.

 

It's better to be uncomfortable, late, and in one piece than on time and dead.

 

 

Career?  IF he's at fault people are dead because of his actions or negligence...  He'd be lucky to escape prison...

I agree completely. To tell you the truth, seeing the report of the train traveling that fast in a zone where the train's supposed to really slow down made me feel disturbed. If the reason people died because of his negligence, there's going to be some MAJOR consequences for him.

[bobtehpanda]

Still it makes no sense, UNLESS THE TRAIN HAS NO SPEED READING, the operator and its family said that he always keep within the speed limit if the train reach 75 mph he should have slow down alittle, how does he not realize that the train was traveling 82 mph. I feel so bad especially when going to Rockefeller center. AND investigation showed no sight of brake problems.

 

Equipment malfunctions all the time (particularly since those cars are older), and it's leaf season.

 

The investigation has not concluded yet; let's not be too hasty.

 

On the other hand, the NTSB is probably going to issue recommendations to build the trains more like tanks (as they always do). Hopefully, this crash will have no bearing on the FRA's upcoming rule loosening on the use of imported lightweight trains.

[Roadcruiser1]

I would say that doing 80 MPH on a 75 MPH sounds a bit crazy, but running at that speed on a 30 MPH zone is just insanity..........

[nostalgia]

I would say that doing 80 MPH on a 75 MPH sounds a bit crazy, but running at that speed on a 30 MPH zone is just insanity..........

Doing 80 mph ON A 75 mph isn't really crazy. The throttle is set for Run 1, Run 2, up to Run 8. It's not like a dial where you set the speed for 80, 50 or some other speed.

[alberchico]

In the US  aviation industry criminalizing accidents is generally frowned upon but in Europe it  is much more common. Have any train crews in recent years been prosecuted for their role in accidents ?

[realizm]

In the US  aviation industry criminalizing accidents is generally frowned upon but in Europe it  is much more common. Have any train crews in recent years been prosecuted for their role in accidents ?

 

Yes. Robert Ray in the NYC Transit 1991 Union Square wreck that killed 5 people and injured 200 on a torn to shreds consist of R62's on the which even knocked through columns in the tunnels. He was consequently charged with 5 counts of negligent manslaughter. 

[aemoreira81]

Yes. Robert Ray in the NYC Transit 1991 Union Square wreck that killed 5 people and injured 200 on a torn to shreds consist of R62's on the which even knocked through columns in the tunnels. He was consequently charged with 5 counts of negligent manslaughter. 

 

This was also a DWI, as 13 hours after the accident, Ray still rang up a 0.21. The conductor of that train also lost his job over not reporting him after he overshot a platform by half a train at Mosholu Parkway, and I would also believe that the dispatcher at Woodlawn also lost his job as Ray was wearing unapproved footwear (tennis shoes).

 

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/09/01/nyregion/catastrophe-under-union-square-crash-lexington-irt-motorman-s-run-disaster.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

[Jamaica Line]

Not pointed at the engineer since they haven't come to a conclusion yet, but in general. I wonder how it feels to know you damaged millions of dollars worth of huge machinery and trackage, along with killing a few lives......

 

 

 

 

 

......sike! I don't ever wanna know! 

[realizm]

This was also a DWI, as 13 hours after the accident, Ray still rang up a 0.21. The conductor of that train also lost his job over not reporting him after he overshot a platform by half a train, and I would also believe that the dispatcher at Woodlawn also lost his job as Ray was wearing unapproved footwear (tennis shoes).

 

Indeed. Initially the investigators suspected Robert Ray of being under the influence of crack cocaine but that was ruled out. The C/R, after Ray overshot platforms repeatedly and displayed erratic operating patterns, never called RCC. The T/D knew he was drunk. It was reported that he acknowledged the fact that he was clearly intoxicated but did not pursue the matter further, let alone the tennis shoes. I'm very sure the T/D lost his position as well as he should had never let that train out into revenue service that night.

 

Why even moments after the accident he went for a couple of more beers on the clock and continued drinking while watching the rescue efforts!

 

With this case regarding the MNRR accident, being that it apparently does not involve an engineer being intoxicated, makes for a slightly different legalistic situation. But the magnitude of the accident in itself is shocking as it actually matches the catastrophe of the 1991 Union Square wreck.

[nostalgia]

Not pointed at the engineer since they haven't come to a conclusion yet, but in general. I wonder how it feels to know you damaged millions of dollars worth of huge machinery and trackage, along with killing a few lives......

 

......sike! I don't ever wanna know!

I'd put the lives ahead of the equipment and track. They can always be replaced.

[RailRunRob]

Question on Metro North and LIRR as well I guess whats the cab signaling like? I know the Engineer sees the speed for the area directly in the cab and has to acknowledge it some how.. is there like a overspeed warning?  What if the engineer doesn't acknowledge does the train slow?    

[nostalgia]

Question on Metro North and LIRR as well I guess whats the cab signaling like? I know the Engineer sees the speed for the area directly in the cab and has to acknowledge it some how.. is there like a overspeed warning?  What if the engineer doesn't acknowledge does the train slow?

I suggest you read earlier posts for the answer.

[nostalgia]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the diesel engine didn't explode. There was a horrible collision in 1996 on the CSX main line between Washington, DC and Cumberland. A MARC train heading eastbound to Washington collided head on with an Amtrak train heading westbound on the same track. The MARC train should have received an approach signal to stop at the next interlocking so that the Amtrak train could cross over to the westbound track. An old F40 was on the point and exploded when struck by the MARC train. The second engine was a Genesis engine but not yet equipped with cab signals. There aren't cab signals on the CSX line but there are on the Conrail Fort Wayne Line so the Genesis engine had to trail. Genesis engines have their fuel tanks better protected than F40s.

 

The NTSB report is here:

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/1997/silver_spring_md/index.html

[PinePower]

No they aren't. They're using quite a few MCI's for those shuttle buses.  They can run those buses from the Riverdale station to Grand Central or in that vicinity and have the Hudson Rail Link buses drop off along Riverdale Avenue and Kappock St/Henry Hudson Parkway.  I'm writing to several politicians now along with my community board to have this option available for those of us who live in Riverdale.  It's outrageous to ask Riverdalians to pay for peak service on Metro-North and then have us make 3 or 4 transfers just to get to Grand Central and call that "equivalent service" when they're paying for a premium service.  That commute takes double the time to make!

 

While I see where you're coming from, having them do that would be impractical. However what they should be doing is having buses shuttle people from Hudson Line stations to Harlem Line stations, instead of putting them on the 1.

[QM1to6Ave]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the diesel engine didn't explode. There was a horrible collision in 1996 on the CSX main line between Washington, DC and Cumberland. A MARC train heading eastbound to Washington collided head on with an Amtrak train heading westbound on the same track. The MARC train should have received an approach signal to stop at the next interlocking so that the Amtrak train could cross over to the westbound track. An old F40 was on the point and exploded when struck by the MARC train. The second engine was a Genesis engine but not yet equipped with cab signals. There aren't cab signals on the CSX line but there are on the Conrail Fort Wayne Line so the Genesis engine had to trail. Genesis engines have their fuel tanks better protected than F40s.

 

The NTSB report is here:

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/1997/silver_spring_md/index.html

Yikes. In our situation, the diesel was at the end of the train so I guess it received the least of the impact. 

[QM1to6Ave]

Also, for those interested, I was watching the NTSB footage to this accident, and noticed that they had just uploaded their recreation of the May Metro North derailment and collision. It certainly has not been a good few months at MNRR 

[46Dover]

Indeed. Initially the investigators suspected Robert Ray of being under the influence of crack cocaine but that was ruled out. The C/R, after Ray overshot platforms repeatedly and displayed erratic operating patterns, never called RCC. The T/D knew he was drunk. It was reported that he acknowledged the fact that he was clearly intoxicated but did not pursue the matter further, let alone the tennis shoes. I'm very sure the T/D lost his position as well as he should had never let that train out into revenue service that night.

 

Why even moments after the accident he went for a couple of more beers on the clock and continued drinking while watching the rescue efforts!

 

With this case regarding the MNRR accident, being that it apparently does not involve an engineer being intoxicated, makes for a slightly different legalistic situation. But the magnitude of the accident in itself is shocking as it actually matches the catastrophe of the 1991 Union Square wreck.

Don't forget Ricky Gates, the Conrail engineer who was under the influence of marijuana and let his train get into the path of an Amtrak train in Chase, MD (1987). 16 people died. Gates was charged, and that incident set the stage for drug testing for bus and train operators

[lirr42]

In my opinion, charges should be brought only in cases of the most extreme negligence.  If the engineer was intoxicated, under the influence of something, or otherwise prohibited from operating the train, then that would be one thing.  But under most circumstances, the accident should be treated as just that--an accident.  Yeah it stinks that the outcome of this was so unfortunate, but as they say, "stuff happens".

 

If any human error were to be found at play here the engineer would likely be decertified and that would be painful enough for him and his family. 

 

Consider this, on many other rail systems in the world (not necessarily in the United States), timekeeping is paramount.  Trains in Japan are timed to the quarter minute and being even slightly late can bring various repercussions on the members of the train crew.  I remember there was once incident back in 2005, the link escapes me at the moment, of a fatal accident on a rail system in Japan.  The reason for the accident was the fact that the operator had been traveling overspeed.  Reports indicated that the train was something like 90 seconds behind schedule, which is considered a big delay in Japan, so the engineer had been speeding in the moments leading up to the crash in an attempt to get back on schedule.

 

In that case, which entity would be considered more at fault?  The operator for exceeding the speed limit in an attempt to get back on schedule or the rail company which has inbred a severe impression of how important timekeeping is paramount (so much so that arriving on-time would be considered more important than arriving there safely.)  Clearly in this case both entities are at fault.  In the end, the operator was the one who exceeded the safe operating speed and caused the collision, but would the culture that has been inbred on the operator by the company have had any influence on the circumstances in the event?  It certainly seems so.

 

There is no denying that the MTA has placed a good bit of emphasis on it's On-Time Performance numbers recently, especially in this final stretch of the year as the railroads try to meet their year-end goals.  Could this have played a role in the circumstances leading up to the derailment?  It certainly adds to the layer of doubt here and reinforces the fact that there will be far more to this investigation then simply reading the event recorders and putting the report out by the end of the week.  It is unwise to make any assumptions until everyone has told their story and every last card is out on the table.

[Vistausss]

@lirr42: Mind you, there's a little difference in what you are comparing here. That train crash in Japan in 2005 was not a railroad train but a subway train. Subways in giant cities (as you know from living near NYC) have much tighter headways, therefore, the 90 second delay was much more of a problem.

[mfs NJT459]

http://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/why-us-needs-a-10-year-infrastructure-plan-78259267937

[nostalgia]

Don't forget Ricky Gates, the Conrail engineer who was under the influence of marijuana and let his train get into the path of an Amtrak train in Chase, MD (1987). 16 people died. Gates was charged, and that incident set the stage for drug testing for bus and train operators

Gates was more than charged. He went to prison.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1993-06-16/news/1993167057_1_marijuana-legalization-dangers-of-marijuana-alcohol-and-marijuana