news MTA Releases Culver Line Report, Proposes Viaduct Express Service

[P3F]

So how's the Ditmas-Stillwell express portion going to work, if there is one? From CI to Manhattan AM and From Manhattan to CI PM, right?

In the current plan, it appears that trains will run entirely local on that section.

[CenSin]

So how's the Ditmas-Stillwell express portion going to work, if there is one? From CI to Manhattan AM and From Manhattan to CI PM, right?

This is the proposed service. The express will be bidirectional.

[QM1to6Ave]

I've been riding the for well over a decade; service has steadily declined in the last 3-4 years. Lately not a week has gone by without some sort of rush-hour battery run on that section. If the current setup were adequate, then the battery runs would merely be an isolated incident, yet they happen all the time now. Therefore, alternatives to the current mess need to be examined.

 

@QM1: The southbound during AM rush is a clusterfvck- Yeah it gets busy between 110th and 42nd, but often it's a pain in the ass already at 157th and earlier stops. And considering how the people north of 145th have a longer commute than those south of that point, there needs ought to be addressed first.

 

Going back to the main subject at hand, though, the in Brooklyn does seem to be a bit of a conundrum. Honestly, I feel like the only way that express service south of Church Avenue could work would be if the TA had retained the Culver Shuttle. If they could run a local from Manhattan down 4th Avenue and through the Culver to Kings Highway, then maybe they'd have some sort of recipe for success. But since that link's been long gone, there basically stumped.

Thnx! I may have to start using the 1 going uptown in the morning rush, hopefully it isn't too bad

[j express]

NB  in the a.m gets crushed packed at 96 St when you have students taking the     to the  .

[checkmatechamp13]

You realize this would just create confusion right? Even with the new trains and the conntdown clocks on the line, people still get confused thinking their train will go to their stop.

 

"This is a Coney Island-bound express train".

"This is a Kings Highway-bound local train".

 

What's so confusing? They do it on the  and with no problem (and they used to do it on the when it ran). NTT or the old-fashioned trains, the vast majority of people aren't that stupid.

 

...don't these stations make up the majority of ridership on the Culver Line? Why would you have half the ridership left with 50% of the service?

 

Church & 7th themselves are on the northern Culver Line and benefit from this, so the ratio is 48:52 express:local.

 

WHAT!? They've completely f--ked this up. Run the Coney Island trains express and the Kings Highway trains local or else there is no point...

 

They did.

 

It would give Culver riders two options, instead of one, similarly to the Brighton Line.

 

Also, connecting the express tracks to another line would mean that the local stations would not need to lose service.

 

I do see your point, but that will cause a switching nightmare at Jay st.

 

This.

 

A lot of students from Columbia University and City College use the  which is why the 96 St to 137 St section is busy. A  express would not be beneficial. 

 

.....and most of them are in the reverse-peak direction. (Uptown in the morning, downtown in the afternoon, when the main rush hour is the opposite direction). And I'm one of them.

 

But for the record, I don't think that segment would be beneficial. I'd rather leave it as-is with battery runs as necessary.

 

I haven't forgotten. I just feel it doesn't really help riders who want the to Manhattan. The is an option, but it requires a transfer at 7 Avenue or Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts.

 

Which is what some people might prefer to do anyway if it speeds their trip. Think about it, say the first train that comes is a local train, you can take it to 7th Avenue and if there's an express across the platform, you just saved a few minutes from skipping the 7th-Jay stops.

 

Plus, some people may live equidistant between two stations, and may just walk to 7th Avenue or Church Avenue if they know that's where the express stops.

 

Each group has its own political agenda and its mouthpieces in the local media that will support its position with Coney Island wanting express service and Park Slope-Red Hook wanting less crowded trains.

 

The express trains would be carrying 48% of the ridership, so local trains wouldn't be significantly more crowded than they are now. (As a matter of fact, depending on how many Windsor Terrace riders transfer to the at 7th Avenue, and how many people walk directly to Church or 7th, they may even be a little less crowded).

 

If that does happen, I foresee riders (and their elected officials) complaining about the loss of service south of Church Av. Remember, there are no plans for adding more service, so there will still be 15 trains leaving 179 Street per hour. If the locals terminate at Church Av, service between Church Av and Stillwell Av will be cut in half to eight minute headways. It will essentially negate any savings on the proposed express.

 

It negates the time savings...but then the MTA saves money with the short-turns.

[QM1to6Ave]

NB in the a.m gets crushed packed at 96 St when you have students taking the to the .

Thats good to know!

[Interested Rider]

The fun has already started with the politicians lining up on both sides of Church Avenue (See Kings County Politics.com today on the subject). In looking at the report, the earliest that the proposed Express Service could go into effect is the summer of 2017 as that is the estimated time for completion of the station projects south of Church Avenue which is key to the implementation of the express service. What is happening here is the politicians north of Church Avenue are seeing a cut in service and those south of Church Avenue is seeing a reduction in traveling time to Manhattan. I think that the MTA did a great job in issuing this report right now as it gives the politicians a year to fight it out among themselves and then see who is left standing after this issue is settled. Then the MTA  will go ahead and do what it would have done anyway as by this time next year, the mayor and the governor may be out of office (I highly recommend Capitol Confidential.com as this is a great source of information) and many of those elected officials who are complaining about this report have either left the political arena or are looking over their shoulders as to who is next to go so they would not have any time to complain about the F train. 

[Caelestor]

In the current plan, it appears that trains will run entirely local on that section.

 

Yeah, the express track doesn't have the switches for trains to travel on in the peak direction.

 

Again, the main impetus to run the Culver express is not to save riders time, but to reduce delays at Bergen St and Church Ave. At the former, 14 and 9 trains merge, and at the latter, the holds up the behind it, since there's no crossover to allow the to switch to/from the inner tracks. Unfortunately, the IND system was poorly designed, leading to the current mess.

[CenSin]

there's no crossover to allow the to switch to/from the inner tracks. Unfortunately, the IND system was poorly designed, leading to the current mess.

If by poorly-designed, you mean that it wasn’t Manhattan-centric enough, then yeah. But otherwise, for the purpose it was originally designed for (and who’s alive today that know why?) the capacity matched up and was efficient as long as all locals went to Queens and all expresses went to Manhattan.

 

Then there’s also the odd decision to place a bunch of switches between Smith–9 Streets and 4 Avenue–9 Street, making Smith–9 Street a capable terminal but not 4 Avenue–9 Street where there are actually transfers. That’s truly a head-scratcher.

[Threxx]

If by poorly-designed, you mean that it wasn’t Manhattan-centric enough, then yeah. But otherwise, for the purpose it was originally designed for (and who’s alive today that know why?) the capacity matched up and was efficient as long as all locals went to Queens and all expresses went to Manhattan.

 

Then there’s also the odd decision to place a bunch of switches between Smith–9 Streets and 4 Avenue–9 Street, making Smith–9 Street a capable terminal but not 4 Avenue–9 Street where there are actually transfers. That’s truly a head-scratcher.

The decision to make 4th Avenue-9th Street such an incapable transfer station (local, not a possible terminal) could have been solely to screw over the BMT and its riders considering the IND was essentially created to compete and foil the existing two companies.

[Union Tpke]

12 TPH Jamaica Center to World Trade Center

9 TPH Jamaica – 179th Street to Kings Highway via 53rd Street

9 TPH Jamaica – 179th Street to Coney Island via Hillside and Culver Express via 53rd Street

via 63rd Street

[Around the Horn]

Then there’s also the odd decision to place a bunch of switches between Smith–9 Streets and 4 Avenue–9 Street, making Smith–9 Street a capable terminal but not 4 Avenue–9 Street where there are actually transfers. That’s truly a head-scratcher.

 

 

The decision to make 4th Avenue-9th Street such an incapable transfer station (local, not a possible terminal) could have been solely to screw over the BMT and its riders considering the IND was essentially created to compete and foil the existing two companies.

Consider the geography though. Is there any portal in the entire subway system with switches at the "mouth"?

[BronxBombers]

Consider the geography though. Is there any portal in the entire subway system with switches at the "mouth"?

 

Hunters Point and 137th St

[Wallyhorse]

I can confirm that the central stairway bank between the levels can be converted in to an elevator shaft. Furthermore, the structural design of the station allows for multiple escalators or stairs to be broken through the upper level platform at several locations for increased vertical capacity, as the vertical support columns are far enough away from the wall. The upper level platform is just a concrete slab.

 

Yes, you need the $$$, but there is no engineering-related issue with this sort of work, and the benefits of having an open Bergen lower would be significant.

And that work, while expensive is probably money well spent in this case.  That is something that is likely needed anyway on a much longer-term basis, including perhaps in the future having an SAS line run via Rutgers and Culver Express. 

[CenSin]

Hunters Point and 137th St

Does the Main Street portal on the count too? I can see the daylight hitting the switches on the way to Flushing.

 

Consider the geography though. Is there any portal in the entire subway system with switches at the "mouth"?

On the West End Line where the connects with the South Brooklyn Railway, there are two switches in close proximity on either side of the tunnel mouth. West of Queensboro Plaza, the Astoria Line also has it on a ramp, and the switch connecting the from Queens Boulevard sees a healthy amount of sunshine. East of Essex Street on the Jamaica Line probably count too. And I can’t be sure, but the switch north of Prospect Park on the Franklin Avenue Line may count.

[jasonbxny0619]

They should consider a rehab of the lower level of Bergen Street to serve express service, establishing the in the Bronx between Burnside & 149-Grand Concourse and bringing back the skip-stop train

[B46 via Utica]

They should consider a rehab of the lower level of Bergen Street to serve express service, establishing the in the Bronx between Burnside & 149-Grand Concourse and bringing back the skip-stop train

The Skip-stop stop plan is already dead on arrival especially if not going to increase the number of trains on the . If you have the skip that stop you would be screwing over the riders at that station since that's the last transfer point between the and .

[bobtehpanda]

They should consider a rehab of the lower level of Bergen Street to serve express service, establishing the in the Bronx between Burnside & 149-Grand Concourse and bringing back the skip-stop train

 

They got rid of the skip stop because too many stops that people were trying to get off at from the north were being skipped.

[Fresh Pond]

The spent 90% of its route going local, with lewes than 10 stops in total (ajmer I'm being generous here) getting skipped. Might as well stay local

[Interested Rider]

There seems to be more information coming out about the proposed F express service. The Gothamist posted yesterday some further information about the proposed service as well as those on both .sides of Church Avenue and their opinions. This was posted right under the MTA info post on Google. The Flatbush Jewish Journal May 19, 2016 p. 88 has Councilman Greenfield trumpeting the return of the F Express and how much time it will save his constituents in Kensington and Borough Park. Each one of these two groups of legislators are appealing to their bases and are not interested in listening to the other side.

As I stated in a previous message, this is a political thing and the MTA will just sit on the sidelines until the battle is over and then do their thing that they had planned to do in the first place.If the New York Post headline today is any indication (as if I trust the Post for anything but rapping fish) then my feeling is that we will be voting on another elected official come November.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The spent 90% of its route going local, with lewes than 10 stops in total (ajmer I'm being generous here) getting skipped. Might as well stay local

 

 

They got rid of the skip stop because too many stops that people were trying to get off at from the north were being skipped.

They may have ditched the idea, but they certainly run trains that skip numerous stops when the train is a few minutes late, and let those passengers take the next one, so it's still being done, albeit unofficially.  I like idea quite frankly.  They should runs more trains from 137th, and let more trains that start north of that run express from 137th to 96th.  They've done it numerous times that I've taken the train.  Besides isn't there a third track somewhere near 137th street that could be used for such service?

[R10 2952]

The track starts just north of 145th, actually.  And yeah, if the were ever to return, it would only make sense if it ran express.  Skip-stop is impractical.

[Snowblock]

What a surprise... Another employee damning anything that the does to make commutes better... If we had folks like you running the show, we'd have a subway system comparable to the 80s (which is almost where we're at now). The communities have fought hard for this, and good for them that they're getting what they've requested. Given how delay prone the subways have been, any form of express service for Brooklyn in particular should be considered.

Rather than insulting my job title, why don't you answer the damn question. HOW IS THIS GOING TO SAVE ANYONE 15 MINUTES, as the article claims???

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Rather than insulting my job title, why don't you answer the damn question. HOW IS THIS GOING TO SAVE ANYONE 15 MINUTES, as the article claims???

Your job title really has nothing to do with the topic, but sure I'll answer the question.  Ride the train when it starts and then you'll see for yourself.  Seems simple enough, or do you only use the system for work purposes?

[Around the Horn]

Hunters Point and 137th St

Ah, I forgot about those.

 

Does the Main Street portal on the count too? I can see the daylight hitting the switches on the way to Flushing.

 

On the West End Line where the connects with the South Brooklyn Railway, there are two switches in close proximity on either side of the tunnel mouth. West of Queensboro Plaza, the Astoria Line also has it on a ramp, and the switch connecting the from Queens Boulevard sees a healthy amount of sunshine. East of Essex Street on the Jamaica Line probably count too. And I can’t be sure, but the switch north of Prospect Park on the Franklin Avenue Line may count.

Are those switches used to turn trains and is the station platform five feet from the portal?

 

That's my point. 4 Avenue is a unique case and I think that between Smith-9th and 4 Avenue is the only place to put the switch unless you out them directly after 7 Av northbound

 

(completely unrelated, can you believe that 7 Avenue is actually at a higher elevation than 4 Avenue? crazy)