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T to Dyre Avenue

T to Dyre Avenue

Posted
Posted
On 12/7/2021 at 9:34 AM, NewFlyer 230 said:

I always wondered, why is the (5) like the (A) is allowed to have different route branches instead of having its branches renamed to avoid confusion. 

I know it would cost a lot of money to change signs and all but wouldn’t it make sense for the (5) to Nereid Ave to be called the (10) instead and leave Dyre Ave as the (5).

So is there a reason why the MTA has never renamed the (A) and the (5) trains branches? 

 

It's funny because many years ago, I thought they were going to rename the <6> the (10) because I kept seeing (10) signs on the middle cars in R62A trains on the (6). There was even one period of time in 1993 where I saw a 5-car set in Unionport Yard entirely signed up as (10) on my way to school. Why it was there, I don't know. At that time, both the (2) and (5) ran entirely with Redbirds and it was several years before the decision to go OPTO on the Dyre Shuttle.

On 12/7/2021 at 11:27 AM, darkstar8983 said:

Its probably since the majority of the routes would overlap. The (A) branches out at Rockaway Blvd, but the route from 207 St to Rockaway Blvd is identical for both branches, similar to how the (5) from Flatbush Av to E180 St would be identical between the 238 St and Dyre Av branches. Another point against relabeling the (5) branch is that it only runs in the peak direction rush, as opposed to the (A) branches that run at all times except late nights

Yes, I never really saw a reason to change the Nereid <5> to another number. I never even saw the need to change it from a diamond to a circle. It's a peak direction rush hours only service. Because the Lefferts and Far Rockaway (A) branches run seven days a week, I can see more of a reason to change one of those. But even then, the split east of Rockaway Blvd accounts for a relatively small portion of the entire (A) line. Now, if there was also a split at north end of the line - like for a crosstown Bronx service, as has been proposed on here in the past - then I would definitely be in favor of using a new letter like (K) for one of the new branches. But as is, I don't really see the need for it, especially since riders aren't getting a full service on either the Lefferts or Far Rockaway branches.

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Lawrence St

Lawrence St

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

It's funny because many years ago, I thought they were going to rename the <6> the (10) because I kept seeing (10) signs on the middle cars in R62A trains on the (6). There was even one period of time in 1993 where I saw a 5-car set in Unionport Yard entirely signed up as (10) on my way to school. Why it was there, I don't know. At that time, both the (2) and (5) ran entirely with Redbirds and it was several years before the decision to go OPTO on the Dyre Shuttle.

Yes, I never really saw a reason to change the Nereid <5> to another number. I never even saw the need to change it from a diamond to a circle. It's a peak direction rush hours only service. Because the Lefferts and Far Rockaway (A) branches run seven days a week, I can see more of a reason to change one of those. But even then, the split east of Rockaway Blvd accounts for a relatively small portion of the entire (A) line. Now, if there was also a split at north end of the line - like for a crosstown Bronx service, as has been proposed on here in the past - then I would definitely be in favor of using a new letter like (K) for one of the new branches. But as is, I don't really see the need for it, especially since riders aren't getting a full service on either the Lefferts or Far Rockaway branches.

There was never actually an official reasoning to why those extra numbers exist, like (8)(10)(11)(12) and (13). I assume it was to rename the express branches like you mentioned, but some of the numbers don't make sense. 

(8) I presume was for the 3rd Av Elevated

(10) I have no clue

(11) was for the <7>

(12) was for the <6>

(13) was for an express version of the (9)?

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Vulturious

Vulturious

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

There was never actually an official reasoning to why those extra numbers exist, like (8)(10)(11)(12) and (13). I assume it was to rename the express branches like you mentioned, but some of the numbers don't make sense. 

(8) I presume was for the 3rd Av Elevated

(10) I have no clue

(11) was for the <7>

(12) was for the <6>

(13) was for an express version of the (9)?

I would assume that (8) would've been the service that was planned to be connected to the new subway replacement for the 3rd Av EL that would've ran along Lexington Av? Last I checked, the new subway replacement was either going to be a service for SAS or Lexington.

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darkstar8983

darkstar8983

Posted
Posted (edited)

Keeping with the branched routes, if the MTA continues to be piece-meal with its service routings and "increases / reroutes", I wouldn't be surprised if SAS Phase 2 has the (Q) and a split-route (N) diverging at 34 St-Herald Sq (Astoria (N)'s stopping at 49 St, with 125 St-bound (N)'s remaining express to 57 St-7 Av, then via the (Q) to 125 St), with just a one-for-one increase in (W) service, with no other route changes, except with a slight increase in the number of (W) trains that continue making the trek towards Brooklyn at the end of the rush hour.  Therefore, the (N) on each branch would probably be every 10-12 minutes rush hours, every 20 minutes all other times except late nights, and overnight, all (N) s serving the Astoria branch exclusively , and would then join the (5) and (A) with having two branches for each route. 

Edited by darkstar8983
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Trainmaster5 Motorman (Retired)

Trainmaster5

Posted
Posted
On 12/8/2021 at 10:26 PM, Missabassie said:

I saw this in the news back in the day, and they had the nerve to say they were getting rid of the <5> to eliminate confusion, in reality the opposite occurred. 

Stupid games for stupid prizes.

I was going to stay out of this discussion about the (5) <5> line signage and it seems that most posters are too young to know what the difference was supposed to mean. The diamond <5> only meant Bronx peak direction service on the Lex line. 241 St- Gun Hill Road-East 180th St-149th and 3rd Avenue.  Bronx Thru Express. PERIOD. I worked the (5) for most of my career in RTO so trust me when I say that I've seen the changes and know the reasoning. My very first picked job on the (5) was a pm run which started at Utica and ran up to 241 St. This was before the Redbird era, SMEE equipment, defaced with someone's idea of "art". There was no diamond display on the end sign. Just a 5. The towers and supervision knew what intervals we were by our marker light setup. Bronx Thru Express n/b on Lex meant Red over the cab and yellow marker lights on the offside. The <5> display became problematic in the Redbird era. All (5) service ran express from 3rd Avenue to East 180th but because of congestion at 241 St terminal in the evening rush which delayed (2) service most WPR service on the <5> became labeled as (5) and ran local from East 180th St to 241St and eventually cut back to Nereid- 238th St. Dyre service was allowed to carry the <5> side signs because it was determined that many confused riders at 149th St-Third Avenue in the pm rush were delaying trains unsure if the train was running express after that stop. The construction work at East 180th St around the station, and the introduction of the R142 equipment was the death knell for the <5> signage. Even for the year or so period when my Conductor and I ran that R62A from Brooklyn up to Dyre we never used the <5> signage because of two reasons. If we arrived at Dyre late and the train was needed immediately there was no one available and no time to change the signs. The same thing applied if we were turned somewhere enroute. I should point out that the procedure for trains originating at Flatbush Avenue during the SMEE era was slightly different. There were conductors assigned to work the platform there during the pm rush who changed signs. The dispatcher there would announce " changeover" over the station PA signifying changing the signage in the cars from Dyre to 241/238 and via Bronx Thru Express. My memories of that era. Carry on.

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paulrivera

paulrivera

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

Keeping with the branched routes, if the MTA continues to be piece-meal with its service routings and "increases / reroutes", I wouldn't be surprised if SAS Phase 2 has the (Q) and a split-route (N) diverging at 34 St-Herald Sq (Astoria (N)'s stopping at 49 St, with 125 St-bound (N)'s remaining express to 57 St-7 Av, then via the (Q) to 125 St), with just a one-for-one increase in (W) service, with no other route changes, except with a slight increase in the number of (W) trains that continue making the trek towards Brooklyn at the end of the rush hour.  Therefore, the (N) on each branch would probably be every 10-12 minutes rush hours, every 20 minutes all other times except late nights, and overnight, all (N) s serving the Astoria branch exclusively , and would then join the (5) and (A) with having two branches for each route. 

This is IF Astoria residents don't mind losing half their express trains.

Let's see how this would hold together:

Rush hours
-(N) 8tph to Astoria, 7tph to 2nd Avenue
-(Q) 10tph to 2nd Avenue
-(W) 8tph to Astoria

Midday
-(N) 3tph to Astoria, 3tph to 2nd Avenue
-(Q) 6tph to 2nd Avenue (cost neutral practice)
-(W) 3tph to Astoria (cost neutral practice)
(midday pattern is based on typical service patterns that run during GO's on the Astoria line)

Evenings and Weekends
-(N) 2.5tph to Astoria, 2.5tph to 2nd Avenue
-(Q) 6tph to 2nd Avenue (cost neutral practice)
-(W) 2.5tph to Astoria.

Overnights: No changes.

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Lex

Lex

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I was going to stay out of this discussion about the (5) <5> line signage and it seems that most posters are too young to know what the difference was supposed to mean. The diamond <5> only meant Bronx peak direction service on the Lex line. 241 St- Gun Hill Road-East 180th St-149th and 3rd Avenue.  Bronx Thru Express. PERIOD. I worked the (5) for most of my career in RTO so trust me when I say that I've seen the changes and know the reasoning. My very first picked job on the (5) was a pm run which started at Utica and ran up to 241 St. This was before the Redbird era, SMEE equipment, defaced with someone's idea of "art". There was no diamond display on the end sign. Just a 5. The towers and supervision knew what intervals we were by our marker light setup. Bronx Thru Express n/b on Lex meant Red over the cab and yellow marker lights on the offside. The <5> display became problematic in the Redbird era. All (5) service ran express from 3rd Avenue to East 180th but because of congestion at 241 St terminal in the evening rush which delayed (2) service most WPR service on the <5> became labeled as (5) and ran local from East 180th St to 241St and eventually cut back to Nereid- 238th St. Dyre service was allowed to carry the <5> side signs because it was determined that many confused riders at 149th St-Third Avenue in the pm rush were delaying trains unsure if the train was running express after that stop. The construction work at East 180th St around the station, and the introduction of the R142 equipment was the death knell for the <5> signage. Even for the year or so period when my Conductor and I ran that R62A from Brooklyn up to Dyre we never used the <5> signage because of two reasons. If we arrived at Dyre late and the train was needed immediately there was no one available and no time to change the signs. The same thing applied if we were turned somewhere enroute. I should point out that the procedure for trains originating at Flatbush Avenue during the SMEE era was slightly different. There were conductors assigned to work the platform there during the pm rush who changed signs. The dispatcher there would announce " changeover" over the station PA signifying changing the signage in the cars from Dyre to 241/238 and via Bronx Thru Express. My memories of that era. Carry on.

There's a bit of irony in that, but I'm not surprised. In addition to the side displays actually making it harder to relay that <5> info, the announcements would be utterly useless in indicating such. Hell, that designation would be at its most useful for the reverse-peak/early midday express runs to East 180th Street/Gun Hill Road, and I'm not even sure if those existed at all prior to 2009.

Edited by Lex
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darkstar8983

darkstar8983

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, paulrivera said:

This is IF Astoria residents don't mind losing half their express trains.

Let's see how this would hold together:

Rush hours
-(N) 8tph to Astoria, 7tph to 2nd Avenue
-(Q) 10tph to 2nd Avenue
-(W) 8tph to Astoria

Midday
-(N) 3tph to Astoria, 3tph to 2nd Avenue
-(Q) 6tph to 2nd Avenue (cost neutral practice)
-(W) 3tph to Astoria (cost neutral practice)
(midday pattern is based on typical service patterns that run during GO's on the Astoria line)

Evenings and Weekends
-(N) 2.5tph to Astoria, 2.5tph to 2nd Avenue
-(Q) 6tph to 2nd Avenue (cost neutral practice)
-(W) 2.5tph to Astoria.

Overnights: No changes.

In no way am I saying it is practical, but it’s likely with the MTA would do. Maybe the TPH would be different as follows:

Rush Hours:

(N) - 5TPH Astoria / 5TPH 2 Av

(Q) - 10TPH 2 Av

(W) - 9 TPH Astoria (two of these trains will continue to Brooklyn and one will short turn at Canal St)

 

Middays:

(N) - 3TPH 2 Av / 3 TPH Astoria

(Q) - 7.5 TPH

(W) - 6TPH

*this frequency would also accommodate Astoria track work, and if it doesn’t, then all (N)s to 2 Av and all (W) (6 TPH) to Astoria

 

Evenings:

(N) - 3TPH 2 Av / 3 TPH Astoria

(W) - 6TPH Astoria

(Q) - 6-7 TPH 2 Av

 

Weekends:

(N) - 6TPH (3 TPH for each Branch), which mean service would have to be increased again along the (N) route to every 10 minutes, which was done before on the (Q) from 10 minutes to 8 minutes.

- (Q) - 7.5 TPH for 2 Av

- (W) - 5 TPH for Astoria

 

I know that phase 2 is still a ways away, but it’s something to consider after the R211 order comes in because there may be extra cars available to run more service, and you can bet that the politicians will fight to run more service before phase 2 opens

Edited by darkstar8983
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Calvin

Calvin

Posted
Posted (edited)

The holiday train will not be on the rails seeing it in person this year. However, the R32s will take its place. Also, the final run will occur when we are in January 2022. Final line to be in-use: the (Q) uincy. 

https://www.nytransitmuseum.org/r32/?fbclid=IwAR1sD8i52RWnHsJJ_Q7heNgbfc2CpKsw5S596t50a32IbAL4RJWA3ERsajM

Edited by Calvin
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trainfan22

trainfan22

Posted
Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Calvin said:

The holiday train will not be on the rails seeing it in person this year. However, the R32s will take its place. Also, the final run will occur when we are in January 2022. Final line to be in-use: the (Q) uincy. 

https://www.nytransitmuseum.org/r32/?fbclid=IwAR1sD8i52RWnHsJJ_Q7heNgbfc2CpKsw5S596t50a32IbAL4RJWA3ERsajM

Wow, couldn't ask for a better send off for a subway car fleet, how fitting the final run will be on an South Brooklyn BMT line.. right where they started.

Edited by trainfan22
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Vulturious

Vulturious

Posted
Posted
56 minutes ago, Calvin said:

The holiday train will not be on the rails seeing it in person this year. However, the R32s will take its place. Also, the final run will occur when we are in January 2022. Final line to be in-use: the (Q) uincy. 

https://www.nytransitmuseum.org/r32/?fbclid=IwAR1sD8i52RWnHsJJ_Q7heNgbfc2CpKsw5S596t50a32IbAL4RJWA3ERsajM

What's confusing to me is how the R32 is running on a good chunk of the (D) line, but doesn't run for at least all of or extends to anywhere else along the line like either the Bronx or into South Brooklyn. Could've easily sent it to maybe Bay Parkway since (D) trains are still temporarily truncated to Bay 50 St.

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R32 3838

R32 3838

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Vulturious said:

What's confusing to me is how the R32 is running on a good chunk of the (D) line, but doesn't run for at least all of or extends to anywhere else along the line like either the Bronx or into South Brooklyn. Could've easily sent it to maybe Bay Parkway since (D) trains are still temporarily truncated to Bay 50 St.

It's basically a replacement for the holiday train +  a last run added to it.

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Lex

Lex

Posted
Posted
31 minutes ago, Calvin said:

The (N)(W) will receive elevators at 8th Av, Brooklyn and Queensboro Plaza shared with the 7. 

Also, Court Sq (G) train. These are one of the stations mentioned to have elevators installed. 

https://www.facebook.com/mta/videos/4948100135221285/

Given what's going on beneath the station, I'm interested to see what they'll do.

As for 8th Avenue, are they still not finished with that?

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Lex

Lex

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Siemenslover said:

What’s with people smoking on the (4)(6)? Been a daily occurrence 

Generally speaking, smoking in the subway is nothing new. I've personally witnessed more than I'd like, all because some jackasses think it's a good idea to light up in an underground subway car.

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