SUBWAY - Random Thoughts Topic

[CenSin]

• 3 months since I last used the bus
• 6.5 months since I last took a train

I never thought I'd say this, but if passenger volumes start following a downward trajectory as a result of working-from-home, then the subways should simply be shut off or made part-time. The subway needs the economy to run, but the economy might no longer need the subway to run.

[B35 via Church]

15 minutes ago, CenSin said:

• 3 months since I last used the bus
• 6.5 months since I last took a train

I never thought I'd say this, but if passenger volumes start following a downward trajectory as a result of working-from-home, then the subways should simply be shut off or made part-time. The subway needs the economy to run, but the economy might no longer need the subway to run.

As long as 100% of this city's workforce doesn't consist of robots, I flat out refuse to say (or suggest) that the subways should be shut down, full time.... I don't care how downward of a trajectory ridership trends are/will undergo, otherwise.

[Deucey]

43 minutes ago, CenSin said:

• 3 months since I last used the bus
• 6.5 months since I last took a train

I never thought I'd say this, but if passenger volumes start following a downward trajectory as a result of working-from-home, then the subways should simply be shut off or made part-time. The subway needs the economy to run, but the economy might no longer need the subway to run.

I have a feeling that if WFH becomes the norm for more than 50% of the population, you'll either see this or the subway becoming like the MNRR - distance fares and reduced headways.

[MHV9218]

1 hour ago, CenSin said:

• 3 months since I last used the bus
• 6.5 months since I last took a train

I never thought I'd say this, but if passenger volumes start following a downward trajectory as a result of working-from-home, then the subways should simply be shut off or made part-time. The subway needs the economy to run, but the economy might no longer need the subway to run.

I view this as 100% unlikely to happen. The work-from-home and the downward trajectory are two consequences of the pandemic and fear over transit, not cause and effect of one another. Similarly, I haven't been on a bus or a train since March. I've been walking and biking absurd distances. But the minute I get a vaccine/this goes away, I'm back to both of those in a hurry, and I know my workplace is desperate to move back in-person.

[Theli11]

1 hour ago, CenSin said:

• 3 months since I last used the bus
• 6.5 months since I last took a train

I never thought I'd say this, but if passenger volumes start following a downward trajectory as a result of working-from-home, then the subways should simply be shut off or made part-time. The subway needs the economy to run, but the economy might no longer need the subway to run.

If the city were to ever shut down subway service, it would have to be replaced by Taxi's or MTA Buses. You'd get public outrage because people still use the subway and there's places where people can just be disconnected. There would have to be a lot more bus routes (to connect Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn, and Manhattan) and that would screw with traffic as a whole. You can't close it down entirely, and you can't close down the parts of it. All you can do is give less service, and even that might move people to other modes of transportation. I haven't been on a bus or train either, but there shouldn't be a complete close off ever. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, CenSin said:

• 3 months since I last used the bus
• 6.5 months since I last took a train

I never thought I'd say this, but if passenger volumes start following a downward trajectory as a result of working-from-home, then the subways should simply be shut off or made part-time. The subway needs the economy to run, but the economy might no longer need the subway to run.

 

54 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

As long as 100% of this city's workforce doesn't consist of robots, I flat out refuse to say (or suggest) that the subways should be shut down, full time.... I don't care how downward of a trajectory ridership trends are/will undergo, otherwise.

 

40 minutes ago, Deucey said:

I have a feeling that if WFH becomes the norm for more than 50% of the population, you'll either see this or the subway becoming like the MNRR - distance fares and reduced headways.

 

5 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

I view this as 100% unlikely to happen. The work-from-home and the downward trajectory are two consequences of the pandemic and fear over transit, not cause and effect of one another. Similarly, I haven't been on a bus or a train since March. I've been walking and biking absurd distances. But the minute I get a vaccine/this goes away, I'm back to both of those in a hurry, and I know my workplace is desperate to move back in-person.

You would never get that to happen, because there are too many people that still depend on the subway, particularly essential workers and those that work in the service industry and blue collar jobs.  I used the subway last week, but not for work, as I have been working primarily from home, and going to the office here and there with the express bus when I need to take care of something in person.  It was the first time I had taken any subway in over 6 months, and I can't say I felt comfortable using it, given how many people I saw on the platforms with their mask down not covering their mouth and nose. If the  doesn't receive their funding, you'd see a 40 - 50 % reduction, but the projection is that ridership comes back fully in a few years. We'll see if that is true or not, as the thought is that some people won't ever return to using the system full time, if at all.

Those that are in white collar jobs like myself, those are the people that won't necessarily suffer much with any service cuts.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Via Garibaldi 8

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

You would never get that to happen, because there are too many people that still depend on the subway, particularly essential workers and those that work in the service industry and blue collar jobs.  I used the subway last week, but not for work, as I have been working primarily from home, and going to the office here and there with the express bus when I need to take care of something in person.  It was the first time I had taken any subway in over 6 months, and I can't say I felt comfortable using it, given how many people I saw on the platforms with their mask down not covering their mouth and nose. If the  doesn't receive their funding, you'd see a 40 - 50 % reduction, but the projection is that ridership comes back fully in a few years. We'll see if that is true or not, as the thought is that some people won't ever return to using the system full time, if at all.

Those that are in white collar jobs like myself, those are the people that won't necessarily suffer much with any service cuts.

I'm not worried about any full-on subway shutdown happening.... Such a solution is an extreme, myopic response, even given this ongoing crisis or whatever.....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

9 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

I'm not worried about any full-on subway shutdown happening.... Such a solution is an extreme, myopic response, even given this ongoing crisis or whatever.....

I know, but they are still predicting a 40 - 50% cut in service. That is going to sting because the people that have options like driving will use them, which will mean even fewer people using the system.  It will be the people that really depend on the subway that will suffer.  They will have longer commutes because they will have to wait longer for a train and connections, not to mention the people that will lose their job.

I've been resisting the idea of driving into Manhattan, but if the express bus cuts are really bad, I may just start doing that.  I don't take the subway because there are too many unmasked people for my taste, so I don't want to be on some packed bus either.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Via Garibaldi 8

[B35 via Church]

17 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I know, but they are still predicting a 40 - 50% cut in service. That is going to sting because the people that have options like driving will use them, which will mean even fewer people using the system.  It will be the people that really depend on the subway that will suffer.  They will have longer commutes because they will have to wait longer for a train and connections, not to mention the people that will lose their job.

I've been resisting the idea of driving into Manhattan, but if the express bus cuts are really bad, I may just start doing that.  I don't take the subway because there are too many unmasked people for my taste, so I don't want to be on some packed bus either.

It's not the suggesting/predicting of that percentage of cuts that I find irritating; I get being pragmatic..... It is this jumping to the extreme of putting it on the table that all subway service should cease running.... This is something I hate to say/admit, but I believe that there are people out here that have a sick curiosity of experiencing a subway-less NYC -  not just during the overnight hours either (like the last jackass that was ran off of this forum, parroting his prediction of a MTA shutdown - the whole dam agency, for crying out loud)....

Like, shut down the subway, and then what.... That is why I say myopic.

To your point, I wouldn't drive in/out of Manhattan 5 days a week, regardless.... It was only for shits & giggles I bothered driving/joy-riding into Manhattan, when the roads were practically empty in this city, around the first few months of this covid bit.... Manhattan's roads would have to be that dead/empty, which I don't see happening - especially w/ a 40%-50% cut in service & what not....

 

[Trainmaster5]

7 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

It's great that we, on a transit discussion forum, can opine on what should be done & what not.... At the same time, the problem with mere experimentation for the simple sake of it (from the MTA's standpoint) is that it isn't rooted in reality - hence, the commencing of studies as to what ends up doing what (for whatever the reasons)... What I took from the entirety of your response is that Trainmaster5 is denouncing any & all ideas & that things should be left alone.... For example, he did not say or implicate that passenger convenience should be prioritized at the expense of reliability, he said, verbatim: "What we were taught is that train routing and service was supposed to be for the benefit of the riders.... He even emphasized the word "supposed" in his OP - which leads me to believe that he doesn't buy that being the reason, and/or that shouldn't be the reason... If it's the latter of the two, you two would actually be in agreement on that particular note !

You can have your opinion on deinterlining & what not (I personally don't have a strong opinion for or against, either way), but just realize there is a difference between "It appears, at least to me and some of my coworkers, that some folks are like a poster we all know who just wants to run trains randomly on all tracks for whatever reason. Just our take. YMMV. Carry on." (his words), and the entirety of the stance that your post assumes.... In laymens, let's not act like some people on here don't come up with wacky ass ideas (often for their own selfish reasons) that's action-packed, chock full of ignorance & devoid of apparent logic..... Unlike the song, there isn't a horse with no name on this forum & anyone that frequents this side of the forum long enough know just who it is I'm talking about.....

 

I thought I might have worded my post incorrectly after reading the initial response but it seems that you and a few others understood what I was trying to convey. Thanks  for clarifying things for me.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

It's not the suggesting/predicting of that percentage of cuts that I find irritating; I get being pragmatic..... It is this jumping to the extreme of putting it on the table that all subway service should cease running.... This is something I hate to say/admit, but I believe that there are people out here that have a sick curiosity of experiencing a subway-less NYC -  not just during the overnight hours either (like the last jackass that was ran off of this forum, parroting his prediction of a MTA shutdown - the whole dam agency, for crying out loud)....

Like, shut down the subway, and then what.... That is why I say myopic.

To your point, I wouldn't drive in/out of Manhattan 5 days a week, regardless.... It was only for shits & giggles I bothered driving/joy-riding into Manhattan, when the roads were practically empty in this city, around the first few months of this covid bit.... Manhattan's roads would have to be that dead/empty, which I don't see happening - especially w/ a 40%-50% cut in service & what not....

 

Yeah, but for people that only have to go in a few times a week, that's exactly what's been happening. They drive in... If it's only two or three times a week, depending on the time, you can find street parking, so the cost isn't that much, especially compared to buying say an express bus pass every week.  My travel expenses have been more than half of what I would normally pay. I have only used Uber three or so times in the last few months compared to about 4 - 6 times a week before.

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yeah, but for people that only have to go in a few times a week, that's exactly what's been happening. They drive in... If it's only two or three times a week, depending on the time, you can find street parking, so the cost isn't that much, especially compared to buying say an express bus pass every week.  My travel expenses have been more than half of what I would normally pay. I have only used Uber three or so times in the last few months compared to about 4 - 6 times a week before.

Yeah, well more power to them then.... I'm not doing it.

As for Uber, etc, I very rarely use the rideshare services & I'd be damned if I'm doing that to/from work everyday as well... As much as I hate crowds, I'll cram onto whatever's left of that 40-50% of whatever particular subway lines they plan on cutting, before I'd ever consider driving in, or taking a cab from Brooklyn, to (whatever hypothetical location in) Manhattan I'd need to get to... I would say I'd consider biking it out, but I'm not tryna come to work stinking everyday - nobody wants to be that guy (or shouldn't want to be that guy)....

Regardless, thank f*** I don't have to drive to Nassau county anymore 5 days a week & thank f*** I don't have to put up with Manhattan 5 days a week either....

You can commute on an express bus... That's something that's not an option for me right now, being that I also now work in Brooklyn.....

Edited October 29, 2020 by B35 via Church

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

Yeah, well more power to them then.... I'm not doing it.

As for Uber, etc, I very rarely use the rideshare services & I'd be damned if I'm doing that to/from work everyday as well... As much as I hate crowds, I'll cram onto whatever's left of that 40-50% of whatever particular subway lines they plan on cutting, before I'd ever consider driving in, or taking a cab from Brooklyn, to (whatever hypothetical location in) Manhattan I'd need to get to... I would say I'd consider biking it out, but I'm not tryna come to work stinking everyday - nobody wants to be that guy (or shouldn't want to be that guy)....

Regardless, thank f*** I don't have to drive to Nassau county anymore 5 days a week & thank f*** I don't have to put up with Manhattan 5 days a week either....

You can commute on an express bus... That's something that's not an option for me right now, being that I also now work in Brooklyn.....

Yeah, I have turned down a few jobs because they were Downtown. Screw that.

[Trainmaster5]

On 10/27/2020 at 7:08 PM, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

As per usual, you do bring up valid points given your past experiences, and I also find it interesting to see some of my own ideas from a different perspective, however with all due respect, I'm still going to rationalize my position on what I think about deinterlining as a general idea. 

1. This is something that I'll take note of, but focusing on cross platform connections for now. Looking at this from the perspective of a passenger, I don't think a cross platform connection is something that adds a lot of time to my commute (under normal circumstances) so I wouldn't worry too much. However, from the perspective as a counductor, I'm guessing the main reason that they're generally avoided is because it'll add to the dwell times of both trains in the station, which doesn't help with run times as you pointed out. Can't blame you but I don't see it as a compelling enough reason (in certain cases) to not deinterline, which brings me to my next point.

2. Now regarding that whole mess that is the IRT Nostrand/Rogers/Franklin Junction (whichever name you prefer), if riders along Eastern Parkway and Nostrand Avenue in particular, advocated for mid-day Express Service, then why would the recommend sending all 7th Avenue Service to Nostrand and all Lexington service to Utica/New Lots everytime they initate a study regarding Rogers Junction? (and I'll admit to putting forth that proposal here on the forums) Interestingly enough, I found a document from 2009 IINM showing diagrams of Rogers Junction being rebuilt into a Y-Junction, (Don't remember if it was alternative 4 or 6 that proposed this), but after thinking about it, I fail to see how rebuilding this junction would justify deinterlining unless the  wants to avoid a 59th Street situation, but I also fail to see how deinterling Rogers would increase dwell times at Franklin Avenue unless you were to reduce service on all lines involved. Then again, a rebuilt+deinterlined Rogers is something we won't truly know how it will play out until its put into practice. As a little something extra, here's something I pulled out from the MTA NYCT Subway Speed and Capacity Review Report:

3. I'm aware of the crowding that Lexington-53rd faced (pre-COVID), but If you don't mind me asking, how bad was it before the debut of the Line? Now regarding everything between 50th Street and 36th Street-Queens, I've initally had mixed feelings about swapping the and  back in 2017, but afterhearing that an / swap was seriously considered and almost had a polit program, I saw that the goal was to reduce merging conflicts at Queens Plaza, which I don't mind TBH because any local-express merge that occurs mid route IMO, is a detriment to the overall corridors reliability. Now regarding your point about how services are routed in certain ways to benefit the passengers riding said services, that something that I have a csonfslicsting opinion on. Now while the subway is meant to take passengers from Point A to Point B, I don't think that passenger convinence should be prioritized at the expnse of the system's overall reliability, and same goes vice versa. I guess thats why I (along with a few others on here) like to get experimental with these types of ideas. Cause I want to see what works and what doesn't with our current system. And if an idea doesn't work, I want to know what factors will have to come into play in order to make said idea work. 

4. I'm not really sure where CBTC falls into all of this, but given that the ran more trains back then, I'm assuming that dispatchers were a lot more strict with you along with the rest of your coworkers when it came to a Train's schedule, correct me if I'm wrong, and like I said in my last point, while theres nothing wrong with having services being geared towards riders, I don't think that passeneger convinence should come at the expense of overall service reliabiltiy. Also, was the system AT capacity during the time that you worked for Transit or no? 

 

On a side note, I find it crazy how I was having a very similar discussion to this with a friend of mine who loves to study the history of the subway system and whatnot. I don't recall if we ever came to a consensus though. 

Sorry for the late response but you have brought up some valid points. The difference boils down to training. My trainers stressed movement, that of the riders and the train consist itself. I've mentioned in the past that  my C/R and M/M instructors all had the same view on operations. What I'm speaking of relates to the IRT in particular. Ride a n/b  or  train from  Fulton St to 125th and Lex. The curves leaving Fulton, Brooklyn Bridge, Union Square, and Grand Central are to be traversed without throwing the riders or the C/R from side to side, especially during rush hours with a heavy passenger load. Same thing applies to the curves between stations , ie. Canal through Astor or the downgrade south of 125th St. These gentleman would ride trains along that corridor without identifying themselves, unless necessary, observing one's operation. Remember that I'm talking about SMEE consists. The C/R was supposed to ride outside the cab in full view of the riders. Sling him around while speeding through curves and arguments would ensue at the terminal or in the parking lot. BTW the  and  lines were the same.

As the old regime retired the new mantra became " throughput".  We can run more trains, closer together with the advent of ATS. My mentor and another supt. from Operations and Planning sprung this on me one Friday afternoon as I was heading n/b from Borough Hall Lex. Explained it to me as I traversed the tube and said they'd let me think it over and get back to me after the weekend. When we reached Grand Central I called the departing supt. over and mouthed the word " B.S." to him and he busted out laughing. My mentor rode up to the terminal with me and as we walked the platform I told him what I thought of the idea. Most of my fellow posters know the basic idea of signal blocks so I won't delve into it too much. Basically the blocks determine how many trains can fit in a corridor. I'm an IRT guy so follow me. I'm also somewhat privy to scheduling because my mentor worked there for many years. I had the new work programs for the   ,  and   lines before my dispatchers in the Lenox Division did. I knew early on from him that when basic IRT schedules were drawn the  ,  and  lines were done first while the  and  were considered supplementary and were worked into the timetables. The  became a main route when it became a full time line to Brooklyn Bridge. I should add that the  line Supt who I'd known as he progressed from tower operator, to dispatcher, to supt. also taught me about Lexington. I was taught by those in the know that in the PM tour heading n/b you wanted the maximum amount of trains between Borough Hall and Brooklyn Bridge from 4;55-5;25 pm. Just about every picked job I had on the  fit that criteria. From the 5:00 Utica to 241 St, the intervals from Flatbush, East 180th or Bowling Green always had me in that mix. I'm pointing that out because the train after the 5:00 from Utica was the 5:02 from Utica to Dyre and the train ahead of me was a  from Flatbush who followed a Bowling Green put-in. What I'm getting at is how do you run more trains where needed if the signal system won't allow it.  We were piggybacking as it was. ATS, by itself, is no help. The supervisors I've  mentioned all knew that without a total signal realignment (CBTC ?) what was being proposed by some higher ups was bogus from the go. I took it as someone with an agenda telling me that they could fit a 16oz Pepsi in a 12 oz. can. I actually thought about contacting Joe Conason and Wayne Barett from the Village Voice to investigate who signed off on this travesty but I was, wisely, deterred from doing just that. To this day we have the ATS overlay delaying trains. My old run from Dyre used to give me 55 minutes to make it down to Bowling Green. Rain, snow whatever, Redbird i'd still make it. Once the ATS system was turned on at the Concourse I'd get jammed in the loop s/b, my follower  from Woodlawn would enter and leave the station while I was still sitting in the loop. By the time I'd hit Bowling Green i was 7-8 minutes late. If the ATS system was off at the Concourse I'd be on time at the Green. One of my dispatcher friends showed me that RTO has increased the running time on my old interval by 8 minutes.

Before I forget that jam up at 53rd and Lex on the  and  . Frequently the second train in was told to bypass that stop or wait until the crowd dispersed before entering the station. Another situation where more trains didn't always mean better service, IMO.

I hope I didn't take up too much time explaining my personal insight.  Think about it for a moment. The  , a foamer's dream , died because because management thought it was a good idea but the riders said "no thank you." Carry on.

[4P3607]

On 10/27/2020 at 3:16 PM, MHV9218 said:

West 3rd Street would like to have a word...

But West 4th DID used to have an actual entrance at West 4th Street. (Wish someone had more info on this + historical pics)

 

Also hearing a work train derailed in CI yard just before 😬

[Union Tpke]

7 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Sorry for the late response but you have brought up some valid points. The difference boils down to training. My trainers stressed movement, that of the riders and the train consist itself. I've mentioned in the past that  my C/R and M/M instructors all had the same view on operations. What I'm speaking of relates to the IRT in particular. Ride a n/b  or  train from  Fulton St to 125th and Lex. The curves leaving Fulton, Brooklyn Bridge, Union Square, and Grand Central are to be traversed without throwing the riders or the C/R from side to side, especially during rush hours with a heavy passenger load. Same thing applies to the curves between stations , ie. Canal through Astor or the downgrade south of 125th St. These gentleman would ride trains along that corridor without identifying themselves, unless necessary, observing one's operation. Remember that I'm talking about SMEE consists. The C/R was supposed to ride outside the cab in full view of the riders. Sling him around while speeding through curves and arguments would ensue at the terminal or in the parking lot. BTW the  and  lines were the same.....

@RR503 Do you have anything to add about ATS?

7 hours ago, 4P3607 said:

But West 4th DID used to have an actual entrance at West 4th Street. (Wish someone had more info on this + historical pics)

Also hearing a work train derailed in CI yard just before 😬

@4P3607

I do have some historic pics of the NW corner West 4th entrance, but am still looking for images of the SE corner entrance. You have to zoom in:

https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/510d47dc-f600-a3d9-e040-e00a18064a99 (1935)

http://nycma.lunaimaging.com/luna/servlet/detail/NYCMA~5~5~177277~495798 (c. 1940)

Here are some photos of closed entrances at West 4th Street from public areas:

http://indsecondsystem.weebly.com/west-4th-st.html

Based on my research, the entrances at West 4th Street closed c.1978.

While there are some station diagrams I have access to that I can't publicly share, there is one that is already on the web that shows the Lower Platform and Mezzanine:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/NARAprodstorage/lz/electronic-records/rg-079/NPS_NY/05000223.pdf#page=16

For more information on the closed entrances at West 4th and around the system, check out my list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Kew_Gardens_613/List_of_closed_New_York_City_Subway_entrances

Here is a snippet from it about a never opened entrance at the Southeastern corner of Washington Place and Sixth Avenue to the lower mezzanine, Stair S5. Space partially occupied by police room. The portion of the mezzanine in front of the entrance is used by the Structure D Night Force. Control Area N081. Entrance partially constructed along with the station, but never opened. A small shed at street level had protected the entrance, which included a stairwell and an unused escalator well. In 1952, the property above the entrance easement was sold, along with the easement, with the understanding that the owner would provide a concrete slab to protect the entrance.

If you have any more questions about these entrances or any other, let me know.

 

[MHV9218]

4 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

@RR503 Do you have anything to add about ATS?

@4P3607

I do have some historic pics of the NW corner West 4th entrance, but am still looking for images of the SE corner entrance. You have to zoom in:

https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/510d47dc-f600-a3d9-e040-e00a18064a99 (1935)

http://nycma.lunaimaging.com/luna/servlet/detail/NYCMA~5~5~177277~495798 (c. 1940)

Here are some photos of closed entrances at West 4th Street from public areas:

http://indsecondsystem.weebly.com/west-4th-st.html

Based on my research, the entrances at West 4th Street closed c.1978.

While there are some station diagrams I have access to that I can't publicly share, there is one that is already on the web that shows the Lower Platform and Mezzanine:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/NARAprodstorage/lz/electronic-records/rg-079/NPS_NY/05000223.pdf#page=16

For more information on the closed entrances at West 4th and around the system, check out my list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Kew_Gardens_613/List_of_closed_New_York_City_Subway_entrances

Here is a snippet from it about a never opened entrance at the Southeastern corner of Washington Place and Sixth Avenue to the lower mezzanine, Stair S5. Space partially occupied by police room. The portion of the mezzanine in front of the entrance is used by the Structure D Night Force. Control Area N081. Entrance partially constructed along with the station, but never opened. A small shed at street level had protected the entrance, which included a stairwell and an unused escalator well. In 1952, the property above the entrance easement was sold, along with the easement, with the understanding that the owner would provide a concrete slab to protect the entrance.

If you have any more questions about these entrances or any other, let me know.

 

These are great! Had never seen all of these shots. Nice to see the 2004 shots with the 1990s enamel signs still hanging – yellow 'Transfer' module, the sticker still covering the BDFQ transfer. One of those signs still survives on the lower level, where it refers to the ACE to Uptown, the Bronx, and Queens (you can tell how out of date that is). They may have covered that since, though...a few new signs installed there recently. And amusingly the main Waverly entrance currently shows one of the 90s enamel signs with the BDFQ, albeit with a sticker for the V.

11 hours ago, 4P3607 said:

But West 4th DID used to have an actual entrance at West 4th Street. (Wish someone had more info on this + historical pics)

You're right, just being cheeky! Been gone a looooong time though.

[R10 2952]

Late '70s as the date of closure seems about right; the Lower West Side was considered a shitty place to be in those days, especially after dark.

But the area's a lot better now, and you would think with all the crowding around entrances that happens at that station (or did before the current situation anyway), they'd at least consider reopening the stairs to West 4th.

"MTA- going our own damn way".

Edited October 29, 2020 by R10 2952

[MHV9218]

6 minutes ago, R10 2952 said:

Late '70s as the date of closure seems about right; the Lower West Side was considered a shitty place to be in those days, especially after dark.

But the area's a lot better now, and you would think with all the crowding around entrances that happens at that station (or did before the current situation anyway), they'd at least consider reopening the stairs to West 4th.

"MTA- going our own damn way".

I feel like it must have been earlier. There's not even a trace of those street entrances. Most of the 70s-80s closures the whole stairwell/kiosk is still there, and there's something than can be reopened fairly easily. There's nothing at West 4th.

[GojiMet86]

So my brother is telling me that the he was on tonight was rerouted to 96th Street, but he and the other people were kicked out 63rd Street, making him take a taxi home with another straphanger.

Was the supposed to go all the way to 96th? Or are passengers kicked out wherever they decide to kick them out?

[danielhg121]

6 hours ago, GojiMet86 said:

So my brother is telling me that the he was on tonight was rerouted to 96th Street, but he and the other people were kicked out 63rd Street, making him take a taxi home with another straphanger.

Was the supposed to go all the way to 96th? Or are passengers kicked out wherever they decide to kick them out?

I think the train is supposed to keep going to 96th. There was probably miscommunication and they kicked them out early. Maybe the line to the terminal is backed up because they already started cleaning the trains so they just took it out of passenger service. This whole thing is a bit half-assed, some stations have final departing times but they're definitely not in sync and the trains still in passenger service (after the "final" train leaves) stop there anyways to let people off so it doesn't make any sense. 

[Union Tpke]

15 hours ago, MHV9218 said:

I feel like it must have been earlier. There's not even a trace of those street entrances. Most of the 70s-80s closures the whole stairwell/kiosk is still there, and there's something than can be reopened fairly easily. There's nothing at West 4th.

An image from the New York Transit Museum of West 4th Street in 1978 shows signage pointing toward the entrance at West 4th Street. While it is not definitive proof, as the TA could have forgotten to take down the sign, the timing makes sense.

Au contraire. Most of the 70s-80s closures have been slabbed over or replaced by emergency entrances of gratings. The entrances to Washington Place and West 4th lead to the lower mezzanine and are blocked from view by employee spaces, some of which can be removed pretty easily.

The entrance at the SE corner of West 4th was slabbed over in 1999 as part of the renovation of Golden Swan Park, and a portion of the entrance is used as an air vent, while the rest of the space is occupied by a garden. The NW corner entrance was partially covered by a steel trapdoor, with the remainder slabbed over. A ladder has replaced some of the stairs. The entrance to the SW corner of Washington Place is blocked by a trapdoor and used as an emergency exit. The entrance to the SE corner was never actually opened has an easement to a building. The entrance to the SW corner of Greenwich leads to the small West 8th street mezzanine and is in area off of the sidewalk now blocked by plywood.

 

 

[MHV9218]

5 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

An image from the New York Transit Museum of West 4th Street in 1978 shows signage pointing toward the entrance at West 4th Street. While it is not definitive proof, as the TA could have forgotten to take down the sign, the timing makes sense.

Au contraire. Most of the 70s-80s closures have been slabbed over or replaced by emergency entrances of gratings. The entrances to Washington Place and West 4th lead to the lower mezzanine and are blocked from view by employee spaces, some of which can be removed pretty easily.

The entrance at the SE corner of West 4th was slabbed over in 1999 as part of the renovation of Golden Swan Park, and a portion of the entrance is used as an air vent, while the rest of the space is occupied by a garden. The NW corner entrance was partially covered by a steel trapdoor, with the remainder slabbed over. A ladder has replaced some of the stairs. The entrance to the SW corner of Washington Place is blocked by a trapdoor and used as an emergency exit. The entrance to the SE corner was never actually opened has an easement to a building. The entrance to the SW corner of Greenwich leads to the small West 8th street mezzanine and is in area off of the sidewalk now blocked by plywood.

Interesting sign there – looks like it was hand painted on there. I wonder what the original said. Like I was mentioning, my '32/'36 sign only says 8th Street and 3rd Street, which is funny. Re: the slab over, that's kind of what I meant about the difficult of reopening. But just surprising they would close so late – Greenwich Village was totally bustling in the 1970s, maybe even moreso than today. It's hardly a stop out in East New York or some lengthy scary passageway like the Gimbel's. Maybe the sign was out of date for a while. Even today, when they're more on top of things, West 4th still has signs for the C to the Bronx that are 25 years out of date, and plenty of stations have defunct exists still marked...

Grain of salt, but a commenter on that posts notes that the West 4th exit wasn't there in the 1970s. I've only ever seen photos of the other exits from the 30s and 40s, not from more recent. I watched footage of that stretch of 6th in the late 1960s-early 1970s recently, and can confirm there is no exit visible at West 4th, or Washington Place, or the corner by Greenwich. So my guess is 1950s, if not earlier.

Redditor tuttikanayee put this up. There's the exit, but this is so old the 6th Ave el is up.

Edited October 30, 2020 by MHV9218

[Union Tpke]

24 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

Interesting sign there – looks like it was hand painted on there. I wonder what the original said. Like I was mentioning, my '32/'36 sign only says 8th Street and 3rd Street, which is funny. Re: the slab over, that's kind of what I meant about the difficult of reopening. But just surprising they would close so late – Greenwich Village was totally bustling in the 1970s, maybe even moreso than today. It's hardly a stop out in East New York or some lengthy scary passageway like the Gimbel's. Maybe the sign was out of date for a while. Even today, when they're more on top of things, West 4th still has signs for the C to the Bronx that are 25 years out of date, and plenty of stations have defunct exists still marked...

Grain of salt, but a commenter on that posts notes that the West 4th exit wasn't there in the 1970s. I've only ever seen photos of the other exits from the 30s and 40s, not from more recent. I watched footage of that stretch of 6th in the late 1960s-early 1970s recently, and can confirm there is no exit visible at West 4th, or Washington Place, or the corner by Greenwich. So my guess is 1950s, if not earlier.

Redditor tuttikanayee put this up. There's the exit, but this is so old the 6th Ave el is up.

 

Thanks for letting me know. I will update the list accordingly.

[Lawrence St]

@Union Tpke while on the topic of closed station entrances, I will never understand why Bedford Park Blvd is the only station on the Concourse line with an exit to an underpass, and then another random exit at 203rd St. I know it used to have a full length mezzanine, but why was it built this way?