BUS - Random Thoughts Thread

[TheMTAEmprie]

4 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

WHY???

Does this apply to express buses? Who’s going to pay for this? Oh wait I know, is the tax payers.

We don’t need free bus rides. We need an increased eagle team presence and higher fines for skipping the fare. It is an absolute disrespect that we have to pay more for those that don’t.

I hear it's partially because WMATA is thinking about doing the same in the near future. But I would think it would only apply to local buses like the M12, BX16, B63, etc. More premium services like SIM lines (or express buses in general) or +SBS+ buses will continue to require busfares. Think about it, if the MTA were to make all buses free (and even subways), OMNY would be a colossal waste of money and would be pointless, and the MTA would likely fall unto an even greater state of disrepair. No one wants that....

[GreatOne2k]

7 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

WHY???

Does this apply to express buses? Who’s going to pay for this? Oh wait I know, is the tax payers.

We don’t need free bus rides. We need an increased eagle team presence and higher fines for skipping the fare. It is an absolute disrespect that we have to pay more for those that don’t.

Every bus EXCEPT express buses would be free (Local, Limited, Select). Express Buses seem to be left out of everything (discounts, frequency increases), even commuter rail is cheaper with CityTicket.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

22 minutes ago, GreatOne2k said:

Every bus EXCEPT express buses would be free (Local, Limited, Select). Express Buses seem to be left out of everything (discounts, frequency increases), even commuter rail is cheaper with CityTicket.

My Assemblyman claims that he has introduced legislation that WOULD include the express buses (as in being free to ride), so we shall see.  Up until recently, I've heard nothing about express buses being included, but he is on the Transportation Committee so I'll take his word for now. It's Bill A4122.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Via Garibaldi 8

[trainfan22]

Express buses need a fare for crowd control, otherwise they are gonna have to run some of those express bus routes on B46 pre artic conversion headways just to keep up with the demand 

 

Express bus ridership will go though the roof if they make it free, they might have to run the SI rush hour weekday only routes 7 days a week if it was free rather than the four routes they do now.

Edited February 18, 2023 by trainfan22

[GreatOne2k]

The homeless and school kids will ride the free express bus.

[KDGallagher]

How come manhattanville buses are running on the m31?

[RSMG106]

1 hour ago, KDGallagher said:

How come manhattanville buses are running on the m31?

I think they are covering for the M31. They are not loans, but rather help for Tuskegee Airmen.

[checkmatechamp13]

3 hours ago, trainfan22 said:

Express buses need a fare for crowd control, otherwise they are gonna have to run some of those express bus routes on B46 pre artic conversion headways just to keep up with the demand 

Express bus ridership will go though the roof if they make it free, they might have to run the SI rush hour weekday only routes 7 days a week if it was free rather than the four routes they do now.

I mean the marginal cost of off-peak service is not that much, and there should be more off-peak express routes running anyway. (The SIM2, SIM6, SIM26, possibly split the SIM1C and SIM3C/33C into some of their respective peak variants, etc)

As far as the fare goes, I have no opinion.

[KDGallagher]

1 hour ago, RSMG106 said:

I think they are covering for the M31. They are not loans, but rather help for Tuskegee Airmen.

Wouldn't it have made more sense for MJQ to help instead? 

[MHV9218]

19 hours ago, GreatOne2k said:

Every bus EXCEPT express buses would be free (Local, Limited, Select). Express Buses seem to be left out of everything (discounts, frequency increases), even commuter rail is cheaper with CityTicket.

Express buses are subsidized to all hell already. The MTA loses a ton of money on nearly every express bus they run but they do it as a service to the public. No need to make them free. 

[RSMG106]

12 hours ago, KDGallagher said:

Wouldn't it have made more sense for MJQ to help instead? 

I guess Manhattanville enjoys the M31 more than anyone. However, you are right because Quill has proximity from the M31's west side terminal.

[Lawrence St]

3 hours ago, MHV9218 said:

Express buses are subsidized to all hell already. The MTA loses a ton of money on nearly every express bus they run but they do it as a service to the public. No need to make them free. 

The ones that duplicate the subway or railroad, yes.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

The ones that duplicate the subway or railroad, yes.

And so are the railroads - they are also heavily subsidized.  Any commuter service is going to be heavily subsidized because the turnover is lower.  

 

3 hours ago, MHV9218 said:

Express buses are subsidized to all hell already. The MTA loses a ton of money on nearly every express bus they run but they do it as a service to the public. No need to make them free. 

And so is the ferry service.  I know it pains you to provide anything for outer-borough residents (your disdain over the years couldn't be clearer from the comments you have made with anything related to benefitting outer-borough residents), but the majority of New Yorkers live in the outer boroughs and we pay taxes just like you do.  I could think of a number of things that benefit Manhattanites that other New Yorkers subsidize.  

[MHV9218]

4 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

And so are the railroads - they are also heavily subsidized.  Any commuter service is going to be heavily subsidized because the turnover is lower.  

And so is the ferry service.  I know it pains you to provide anything for outer-borough residents (your disdain over the years couldn't be clearer from the comments you have made with anything related to benefitting outer-borough residents), but the majority of New Yorkers live in the outer boroughs and we pay taxes just like you do.  I could think of a number of things that benefit Manhattanites that other New Yorkers subsidize.  

The ferry service is a total waste of money that should have been canceled yesterday. But the ferry service is actually even less subsidized than express buses. As usual, spare me the histrionics about outer borough prejudice. The very best thing we could do for outer borough residents is invest in local bus and subway service (both should be more frequent, and free buses are worth considering), which would be more possible if we weren't subsidizing express bus riders to the tune of $11.79 a ride. The railroads aren't even a relevant comparison; Metro-North subsidies are $5.62 per rider. Again, no emotion here, just the facts. Invest in local buses and subways, ideally even new transit construction, make life better for people in transit deserts, don't waste money on cheap fares for Tottenville bankers taking the express bus to the city. 

 

4 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

The ones that duplicate the subway or railroad, yes.

They lose money on the entire express bus network by a dramatic amount – again, the number is $11.79 per rider. The ones that don't duplicate the subway are the only reason it isn't a total blowout. 

Edited February 19, 2023 by MHV9218

[checkmatechamp13]

34 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

The ferry service is a total waste of money that should have been canceled yesterday. But the ferry service is actually even less subsidized than express buses. As usual, spare me the histrionics about outer borough prejudice. The very best thing we could do for outer borough residents is invest in local bus and subway service (both should be more frequent, and free buses are worth considering), which would be more possible if we weren't subsidizing express bus riders to the tune of $11.79 a ride. The railroads aren't even a relevant comparison; Metro-North subsidies are $5.62 per rider. Again, no emotion here, just the facts. Invest in local buses and subways, ideally even new transit construction, make life better for people in transit deserts, don't waste money on cheap fares for Tottenville bankers taking the express bus to the city. 

They lose money on the entire express bus network by a dramatic amount – again, the number is $11.79 per rider. The ones that don't duplicate the subway are the only reason it isn't a total blowout. 

It's not just wealthy people taking these routes. You have college kids and people who work at retail jobs in Manhattan who also take the express bus from Staten Island. Having lived out on Staten Island for 18 years, the ferry sucks...it's slow and infrequent and on top of that you usually have to transfer on both ends of the trip. (And the NYC ferry isn't much better...it's faster but it's even less frequent than the main ferry and doesn't accept free transfers)

[MHV9218]

7 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

It's not just wealthy people taking these routes. You have college kids and people who work at retail jobs in Manhattan who also take the express bus from Staten Island. Having lived out on Staten Island for 18 years, the ferry sucks...it's slow and infrequent and on top of that you usually have to transfer on both ends of the trip. (And the NYC ferry isn't much better...it's faster but it's even less frequent than the main ferry and doesn't accept free transfers)

It's true, but I just mentioned that as an example of some of the people receiving the subsidies. The fact is that express bus riders are, by and large, better-off than local bus riders. The average income of local bus riders is $28k a year, which is far below even the average subway rider income. In a zero-sum game like the distribution of meager of transit funds, it's never been a good investment to spend so much money on express bus subsidies. Not to mention that the SIR is actually the single biggest waste of money, by the numbers, in the entire MTA system. 

Edited February 19, 2023 by MHV9218

[Lawrence St]

39 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

It's true, but I just mentioned that as an example of some of the people receiving the subsidies. The fact is that express bus riders are, by and large, better-off than local bus riders. The average income of local bus riders is $28k a year, which is far below even the average subway rider income. In a zero-sum game like the distribution of meager of transit funds, it's never been a good investment to spend so much money on express bus subsidies. Not to mention that the SIR is actually the single biggest waste of money, by the numbers, in the entire MTA system. 

Why is SIR the biggest waste of money?

[MHV9218]

15 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Why is SIR the biggest waste of money?

Transit systems are usually measured by their farebox operating ratio, i.e. the amount that fares offset operating expenses. Almost everything in the MTA runs at a loss (Metro-North covers 60% of costs, NYCT covers 55%), but that's what taxes and state funding are for. NYCT express buses cover 34% of expenses, but the SIR has the single lowest ratio in the entire MTA network at 12% of expenses. 

[NoHacksJustKhaks]

Also not surprising that SIR is free unless you exit at St George or Tompkinsville. Funnily enough, they had to make Tompkinsville a paid entry/exit after ferry riders simply walked 10 mins to that stop to avoid the fare, lol.

[IAlam]

The MTA needs to really coordinate with the NYPD inorder to keep buses moving for the  shuttle. Whoever thought it was a good idea to send a bus running up Roosevelt Ave every 2 min and then making a left on the Main St ended up causing so much congestion, with the heavy crowds and the heavy traffic it was a nightmare to get through to Flushing today. Normally it's hard enough for buses to turn onto Main from Roosevelt and usually 1 or 2 max can turn per light. But not only was there a huge flux of additionally buses with all the cars ignoring the busway and no turn rules adding even more congestion, it ended up having a knock on effect on the other bus lines too. I think one of the hardest hit lines was the Q20 with almost 2/3 of its the buses operating stuck on Main St at one point. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

14 hours ago, IAlam said:

The MTA needs to really coordinate with the NYPD inorder to keep buses moving for the  shuttle. Whoever thought it was a good idea to send a bus running up Roosevelt Ave every 2 min and then making a left on the Main St ended up causing so much congestion, with the heavy crowds and the heavy traffic it was a nightmare to get through to Flushing today. Normally it's hard enough for buses to turn onto Main from Roosevelt and usually 1 or 2 max can turn per light. But not only was there a huge flux of additionally buses with all the cars ignoring the busway and no turn rules adding even more congestion, it ended up having a knock on effect on the other bus lines too. I think one of the hardest hit lines was the Q20 with almost 2/3 of its the buses operating stuck on Main St at one point. 

This is the same busway that has camera enforcement, so all of those people should be ticketed automatically, and thus no need for the NYPD. As the tickets mount, those people will stop doing it.  That is usually how it works.  Photo is taken of the license plate and the ticket is mailed accordingly.

---

I'll add something that I forgot to mention.  The reason that camera enforcement was opted for is because it is more effective (both in terms of cost and enforcement) than having the NYPD chase people out of the bus lanes all day.  Previously under the de Blasio administration, NYCDOT came up with a program where they had traffic agents go around and literally chase drivers out of bus lanes, bus stops, etc. - I saw it along 6th Av a few times. 

There are simply not enough agents to go around doing that, and in some cases, I'd see a traffic agent chasing one guy out of the bus lane or a bus stop on one block and on the next block you'd have another violator, so that program was ended rather quickly (I confirmed with the DOT during one meeting on bus lanes) and they are moving to camera enforcement, both at street level AND on the actual local buses. The pilot program started on a few local lines and is being expanded, but it needs to be funded, as it is costly. The  also must receive approval from Albany to do what they want to do, which is expand the camera program to more lines #1 and to cover more than just bus lanes, but also bus stops. 

Edited February 19, 2023 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Mtatransit]

On 2/9/2023 at 7:44 PM, B35 via Church said:

As far as the farebeating culture, man, I see old ass people here on the B35 alone hopping the back of the buses all the time... At this point though, while a factor, I don't see it being nearly as much about the cost of the fare by itself (as to why people are farebeating).... There is a certain entitlement as you point out, and I believe there to be a certain *let's stick it to the MTA* mindset that some have also.... It's seldom brought up, but quality of service can most certainly be a reason you have people simply going f*** it, and not bothering to pay.... Then of course, there are the followers; as if to say, if he/she is getting away with it, then why the f*** am I continuing to pay..... All of that combined fostered this culture in this city - regardless of ethnicities or income levels/brackets....

Oh each time I pay I feel like a sucker, both on trains and buses

Im this close each time to just saying if you can’t beat ‘em, join them, cause people paying the fares are getting slammed twice, both in terms of the fares and tax collections

On Staten Island you would have a couple of teens get on the bus for like one stop and getting off, wasting everyone’s time. 
 

In the Bronx it’s common courtesy to hold the back door open, as people board the bus like it is a free shuttle bus

In Queens and Nassau what used to be non existent fare beating, I’m starting to see more and more of that happening here as well. Some drivers still challenge it, but some don’t. 
 

This culture of fare beating has nothing to do with the ability to pay, because as soon as you have a couple of NYPD patrolling the station, they either pay up or leave the station and try their luck elsewhere

They need POP on buses (and even on the subway imo) like yesterday, and they need to enforce it heavily, in all neighborhood

[NewFlyer 230]

3 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

Oh each time I pay I feel like a sucker, both on trains and buses

Im this close each time to just saying if you can’t beat ‘em, join them, cause people paying the fares are getting slammed twice, both in terms of the fares and tax collections

On Staten Island you would have a couple of teens get on the bus for like one stop and getting off, wasting everyone’s time. 
 

In the Bronx it’s common courtesy to hold the back door open, as people board the bus like it is a free shuttle bus

In Queens and Nassau what used to be non existent fare beating, I’m starting to see more and more of that happening here as well. Some drivers still challenge it, but some don’t. 
 

This culture of fare beating has nothing to do with the ability to pay, because as soon as you have a couple of NYPD patrolling the station, they either pay up or leave the station and try their luck elsewhere

They need POP on buses (and even on the subway imo) like yesterday, and they need to enforce it heavily, in all neighborhood

I might be in the minority but I’m totally opposed to making transportation free in NYC for the fact that someone has to pay for it and most likely that would be through the means of us paying higher taxes. Wise people have told me at various times in my life that nothing in life is free and there is a cost to everything. So yeah it may seem good that people can ride the buses for free but at what cost because maintenance still has to be performed, buses have to be fueled and while the fares recovered only cover a fraction of the MTA’s expenses at least that is less of a financial burden to us residents of NYC and users of the mass transportation system. 

NYC just has a long history of disorder and nobody wants to tackle the cities issues head on so they have to take this cowardly approach to doing so and maintaining the peace. They don’t want police out there enforcing the law because it will cause more conflict between the public and police. Some people will get upset with the police enforcing the fare and will cry the excuse you are targeting us because of skin color but homie you are breaking the law by not paying and on top of that half the time the cats I see farebeating wear expensive clothing, got a more recent iPhone than me (still stuck on the iPhone 11 from four years ago) and I’ve seen on multiple occasions people saying they have no fare just to then get off the bus at some point just to walk into a smoke shop or a dessert spot and etc. The level of entitlement people feel nowadays is mind blowing. Many expect everything to be handed to them while not wanting to work for anything and the people who really need the help get overlooked. While we are at it let’s make gas for cars free too so that we can get to where we need to go faster without having to rely on crappy public transit. Who wants to deal with the endless delays the Queens Blvd line faces most evenings out of the year with the  sometimes taking an hour to get from Court Square to Forest Hills or who wants to wait 30 minutes or more for a bus route like the Q25 which has bus lanes it can take advantage of in both Flushing and Jamaica but still can bunch in 3’s on a Sunday morning at a time where there are less cars on the road. 

Edited February 19, 2023 by NewFlyer 230

[Mtatransit]

12 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I might be in the minority but I’m totally opposed to making transportation free in NYC for the fact that someone has to pay for it and most likely that would be through the means of us paying higher taxes. Wise people have told me at various times in my life that nothing in life is free and there is a cost to everything. So yeah it may seem good that people can ride the buses for free but at what cost because maintenance still has to be performed, buses have to be fueled and while the fares recovered only cover a fraction of the MTA’s expenses at least that is less of a financial burden to us residents of NYC and users of the mass transportation system. 

NYC just has a long history of disorder and nobody wants to tackle the cities issues head on so they have to take this cowardly approach to doing so and maintaining the peace. They don’t want police out there enforcing the law because it will cause more conflict between the public and police. Some people will get upset with the police enforcing the fare and will cry the excuse you are targeting us because of skin color but homie you are breaking the law by not paying and on top of that half the time the cats I see farebeating wear expensive clothing, got a more recent iPhone than me (still stuck on the iPhone 11 from four years ago) and I’ve seen on multiple occasions people saying they have no fare just to then get off the bus at some point just to walk into a smoke shop or a dessert spot and etc. The level of entitlement people feel nowadays is mind blowing. Many expect everything to be handed to them while not wanting to work for anything and the people who really need the help get overlooked. While we are at it let’s make gas for cars free too so that we can get to where we need to go faster without having to rely on crappy public transit. Who wants to deal with the endless delays the Queens Blvd line faces most evenings out of the year with the  sometimes taking an hour to get from Court Square to Forest Hills or who wants to wait 30 minutes or more for a bus route like the Q25 which has bus lanes it can take advantage of in both Flushing and Jamaica but still can bunch in 3’s on a Sunday morning at a time where there are less cars on the road. 

I don’t think you are in the minority here, or as a matter in fact anyone who actually uses transit. 
 

The extra funding used to offer free transit is ALWAYS better off used to improve the quality, span and frequency of service

Which is why I am on board with Riders Alliance 6 minutes headway everyday and opposed to the free bus proposal

[Via Garibaldi 8]

45 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I might be in the minority but I’m totally opposed to making transportation free in NYC for the fact that someone has to pay for it and most likely that would be through the means of us paying higher taxes. Wise people have told me at various times in my life that nothing in life is free and there is a cost to everything. So yeah it may seem good that people can ride the buses for free but at what cost because maintenance still has to be performed, buses have to be fueled and while the fares recovered only cover a fraction of the MTA’s expenses at least that is less of a financial burden to us residents of NYC and users of the mass transportation system. 

NYC just has a long history of disorder and nobody wants to tackle the cities issues head on so they have to take this cowardly approach to doing so and maintaining the peace. They don’t want police out there enforcing the law because it will cause more conflict between the public and police. Some people will get upset with the police enforcing the fare and will cry the excuse you are targeting us because of skin color but homie you are breaking the law by not paying and on top of that half the time the cats I see farebeating wear expensive clothing, got a more recent iPhone than me (still stuck on the iPhone 11 from four years ago) and I’ve seen on multiple occasions people saying they have no fare just to then get off the bus at some point just to walk into a smoke shop or a dessert spot and etc. The level of entitlement people feel nowadays is mind blowing. Many expect everything to be handed to them while not wanting to work for anything and the people who really need the help get overlooked. While we are at it let’s make gas for cars free too so that we can get to where we need to go faster without having to rely on crappy public transit. Who wants to deal with the endless delays the Queens Blvd line faces most evenings out of the year with the  sometimes taking an hour to get from Court Square to Forest Hills or who wants to wait 30 minutes or more for a bus route like the Q25 which has bus lanes it can take advantage of in both Flushing and Jamaica but still can bunch in 3’s on a Sunday morning at a time where there are less cars on the road. 

I'm not sure why you're talking about "homie" when people of ALL colors are farebeating these days... That means Whites, Blacks, Latinos and so on and that includes the express buses. Now there isn't much fare beating on the express bus compared to the local buses, but the last few people that have got on the bus with either a sob story or had the wrong Metrocard were all White.  We had a young White chick get on at 63rd & Broadway with some story. Driver gave her a talking to and let her on.  A few years ago, we had this hippie looking White guy where I live in Riverdale that not only wanted to ride for free, BUT thought he needed to ride in style to boot.  A few times he got on and after that the drivers stopped allowing it.  He approached me once asking for me to dip for him. Absolutely not. No one gets a free dip from me unless you are paying for it and since I had seen him before and knew his little scheme it disgusted me even more because I got the feeling that he was just trying to get over. If he was truly broke he can take the bus to the subway.

I've also seen some Latino kids get on the Bx10 and ask to ride for free here and there, which I don't get since they get a free pass. This was in the morning, so I don't understand how they could've used all of their rides that early.  Obviously they lived elsewhere, as they were coming from one of the schools, but that means you took one trip from home to school and then the return trip, so what happened to the Metrocard?  I saw this a lot when I lived on Staten Island too with school kids of all backgrounds seemingly not having their Metrocard as if they were letting someone else use it or something.

Speaking of farebeating, on Staten Island people of various backgrounds farebeat, esp. the local buses and occasionally the express bus, so the whole "homie" remark is comical. 

It's also comical that some "advocacy" groups out here like the Riders Alliance come up with the excuse that people are hopping the turnstiles because of poverty and then they bring color into it when I see plenty of people that are doing just fine not paying.  That is such BS and actually it is an underhanded way putting down certain groups.  As someone of mixed background, I find it offensive because it assumes that certain groups always "need a hand", as if they are either too incompetent or incapable of doing better.... In other words, it's like saying that they are inherently unable to do better.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Via Garibaldi 8