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The worst service reductions of MTA history may be coming...


Lawrence St

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https://abc7ny.com/traffic/mta-outlines-draconian-cuts-without-$12-billion-in-federal-aid/6389674/

Construction and development potential project impacts
MTA Construction and development could be forced to pause 2020-2024 capital projects
--Potential projects that could be paused include:
--Second Avenue Subway Phase 2
--Penn Station Access/4 Bronx stations
--Additional ADA station upgrades
--Purchasing of electric bus fleet
--Purchasing of new subway rolling stock
--CBTC signal modernization projects -including Lexington line
--LIRR Central Branch electrification

Mass transit potential service reductions
New York City Transit could be forced to reduce service by up to 40% on subways, buses and Staten Island Railroad
--This will save almost $880 million annually, net of expected revenue losses
--Subway headways could increase up to 8 minutes; off-peak headways on Staten Island Railroad would increase by 30 minutes
--Bus headways could increase up to 15 minutes
--Estimated workforce impact is permanent reduction of over 7,200 positions.

My own comments:

Since we are in the subway fourm, I expect that the (B) and (W) will be discontinued, weekday (5) service south of Bowling Green will be discontinued, reduction in service on both the (3) and the (5), QBL and Lexington and 8th Av CBTC will be put on hold, and more...

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25 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

https://abc7ny.com/traffic/mta-outlines-draconian-cuts-without-$12-billion-in-federal-aid/6389674/

Construction and development potential project impacts
MTA Construction and development could be forced to pause 2020-2024 capital projects
--Potential projects that could be paused include:
--Second Avenue Subway Phase 2
--Penn Station Access/4 Bronx stations
--Additional ADA station upgrades
--Purchasing of electric bus fleet
--Purchasing of new subway rolling stock
--CBTC signal modernization projects -including Lexington line
--LIRR Central Branch electrification

Mass transit potential service reductions
New York City Transit could be forced to reduce service by up to 40% on subways, buses and Staten Island Railroad
--This will save almost $880 million annually, net of expected revenue losses
--Subway headways could increase up to 8 minutes; off-peak headways on Staten Island Railroad would increase by 30 minutes
--Bus headways could increase up to 15 minutes
--Estimated workforce impact is permanent reduction of over 7,200 positions.

My own comments:

Since we are in the subway fourm, I expect that the (B) and (W) will be discontinued, weekday (5) service south of Bowling Green will be discontinued, reduction in service on both the (3) and the (5), QBL and Lexington and 8th Av CBTC will be put on hold, and more...

QBL I think would still go on. I Think the (B) would only go to 145th. The (W) would be Cut and the rest I could also see happening.

I can see them not taking the R211 option orders as well.

Edited by R32 3838
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I think that the (B)(W)(Z) would be eliminated fully. I can also see them eliminating <6> and <7> service and also cutting the (M) to 96/2 at all times.  I think that MTA has gotten so far along East Side Access that they have to finish it. I'm not sure Metro-North goes to Penn Station ever.

Edited by Q101viaSteinway
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1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Since we are in the subway fourm, I expect that the (B) and (W) will be discontinued, weekday (5) service south of Bowling Green will be discontinued, reduction in service on both the (3) and the (5), QBL and Lexington and 8th Av CBTC will be put on hold, and more...

How much of 40% would that even represent? Those routes are a drop in the bucket.

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image0.png

So here is a letter from the Chairmen and CEO of the MTA to the rest of the MTA about the current situation. This really is getting much worse, we can thank a lot of people that contributed to bringing the MTA to where it's at right now, cough Trump Administration cough. Seriously though, this really is just the worst.

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5 hours ago, CenSin said:

How much of 40% would that even represent? Those routes are a drop in the bucket.

They said a Sunday schedule represents 75% of normal service just to give you an idea. (So those routes plus the (Z) , and then some frequency reductions on some other lines and there's your 40%)

Or they could just do a 40% reduction across the board (give or take depending on line-specific ridership)

Edited by checkmatechamp13
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10 hours ago, Q101viaSteinway said:

I think that the (B)(W)(Z) would be eliminated fully. I can also see them eliminating <6> and <7> service and also cutting the (M) to 96/2 at all times.  I think that MTA has gotten so far along East Side Access that they have to finish it. I'm not sure Metro-North goes to Penn Station ever.

They actually want to delay the start of East Side Access.

I could see the (M) just returning to Chambers St full time...

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3 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

They actually want to delay the start of East Side Access.

I could see the (M) just returning to Chambers St full time...

 

I doubt that would happen, The politics in the Middle Village area would make sure of that. Out of all the Cuts, That would be the dumbest cut to make.

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(1) stays as is 8 minutes apart

(2) stays as it is 8 minutes apart.

(3) eliminated 

(4) Woodlawn -New Lots every 8 minutes local In Brooklyn 

(5) shuttle to 180 from dyre

(6) every 8 min same as now (6X) suspended 

(7) every 8 min like now 7X suspended 

 

(A) local for sure in Brooklyn maybe also in Manhattan no rockaway park service every 8 minutes combined on all lines 

(B) suspended 

(C) suspended 

(D) every 8 min like now 

(E)E regular every 8 minutes perhaps local In queens if (R) is send on second ave

(F) exactly the way service is now

(G) maybe cut back to 4th ave 

(H) no changes 

(J)every. 8 minutes same route 

(L)they may leave that one alone will see.

(M) probably Met to Chambers 

(N)N same every 8 min maybe local in Manhattan 


(Q) every 8 min same route as now

(R)R every 8 minutes like now ( maybe would end at 96/2) 

(S) Franklin remains but Times Square eliminated

(W) emlinated 

(Z) eliminated 


that’s my thoughts 
 

Edited by Abba
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16 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

https://abc7ny.com/traffic/mta-outlines-draconian-cuts-without-$12-billion-in-federal-aid/6389674/

Construction and development potential project impacts
MTA Construction and development could be forced to pause 2020-2024 capital projects
--Potential projects that could be paused include:
--Second Avenue Subway Phase 2
--Penn Station Access/4 Bronx stations
--Additional ADA station upgrades
--Purchasing of electric bus fleet
--Purchasing of new subway rolling stock
--CBTC signal modernization projects -including Lexington line
--LIRR Central Branch electrification

Mass transit potential service reductions
New York City Transit could be forced to reduce service by up to 40% on subways, buses and Staten Island Railroad
--This will save almost $880 million annually, net of expected revenue losses
--Subway headways could increase up to 8 minutes; off-peak headways on Staten Island Railroad would increase by 30 minutes
--Bus headways could increase up to 15 minutes
--Estimated workforce impact is permanent reduction of over 7,200 positions.

Also these cuts will also seemingly include the following reductions on the commuter railroad division

50% cut in service on MNR/LIRR reduced service up to 60 minutes on heavier ridership branch and 120 minutes on lighter used branch

Closure of one or more LIRR branch

Elimination of ticket windows

Completely closure of W of Hudson Metro North service (Port Jervis Line and Pascack Valley Line). I asume service will terminate at the NJ border in this case, Montvale and Suffern.

Eliminate 850 commuter rail employees

Access A Ride

Service will no longer be on demand, but MTA will be increasing trips to feeder service (not sure what that means but maybe a trip to the nearest accessible subway station?)

 

MTA Bridges and Tunnel

Elimination of the NY resident EZ-Pass discount (which I don't know if it includes Staten Island and Rockaway residents which would be devestating)

Implementing peak pricing on MTA B&T

Elimination of 300 jobs

 

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/mta-expected-to-outline-possible-service-cuts-layoffs-amid-12b-deficit/2585597/?fbclid=IwAR0hNxvNGEmEgYto06uRyZCuccnFPruAYZcDeYW-LQHz2XomyevGf-pDYcU

 

Fares 

Will be increased 10% by 2023

https://www.newsday.com/long-island/transportation/mta-finances-1.48598336

That being said

There are no easy cuts here this time around. 2010 was a drop in the bucket compare to this looming deficit.

Most likely weekday subway/buses service will resemble a reduced Sunday service , and weekend service will more and more resemble commuter rail frequencies. That is roughly one train every 15 -20 min on weekday and every 30-40 minutes on weekends. Those peak service pattern is pretty much gone (W)(B)(5) to Brooklyn, (M) south of Myrtle Ave. 

On the commuter rail side, these reductions are MUCH more drastic. 

60 minute headway during rush hours (maybe at best 30 minutes) and 120 minutes for all outer lower ridership branch. I assume that the service east of Ronkonkoma, W Hempstead Branch and probably the Oyster Bay branch will be fully eliminated

On the Metro North, we already know that the MTA is proposing to eliminate two lines (Port Jervis and Pascask Valley)

Depending on CDOT's financial situation, the New haven Line most likely will be spared most of the cuts, but service in NYS on the New haven Line, on the hudson and harlem Line, service will most likely resemble current weekend schedules and weekend service will definitely be cut north of Southeast, with service every 120 minutes elsewhere

 

Edited by Mtatransit
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12 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

hat the (B)(W)(Z) would be eliminated fully. I can also see them eliminating <6> and <7> service and also cutting the (M) to 96/2 at all times.  I think that MTA has gotten so far along East Side Access that they have to finish it. I'm not sure Metro-North goes to Penn Station ever.

12 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

They actually want to delay the start of East Side Access.

I could see the (M) just returning to Chambers St full time...

 

10 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

@Lawrence St Honestly, passengers will be lucky if the (brownM) goes past Myrtle when all this is done and over with.

 

8 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

 

I doubt that would happen, The politics in the Middle Village area would make sure of that. Out of all the Cuts, That would be the dumbest cut to make.

Judging by the Essential Services plan, it seems to be the other end of the line that holds the most sway now, as the (M) wasn't reduced at all (except slight headway changes), so I could see it being the same.

Edited by Eric B
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If mass transit is so drastically reduced, it will force more businesses to remain (or become) remote-only for employees. If i have a choice between two jobs, and one does not require dealing with these immense reductions in travel opportunities, I am sure as hell taking the remote job. 

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42 minutes ago, QM1to6Ave said:

If mass transit is so drastically reduced, it will force more businesses to remain (or become) remote-only for employees. If i have a choice between two jobs, and one does not require dealing with these immense reductions in travel opportunities, I am sure as hell taking the remote job. 

you've just described the beginning of a death spiral.

  1. bad public transit, not enough road capacity
  2. work from home trends
  3. restaurants and other peripheral businesses go bust
  4. commercial properties decline, and tax revenues dry up making the MTA too poor to run service
  5. return to #1
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(MTA)(3) 42nd St (S), (B)(C)  (W) could be cut.

(4): Local in Brooklyn, late night all stops

(5): Dyre Av Shuttle

<6><7> Service eliminated

(E) 179th St rush hour trip eliminated

<F> Might be discontinue.

(J)(Z): Skip-stop express service suspeneded. No service south of Chambers St.

(M): Weekend, to/from Essex St, late night from Myrtle Av-Broadway.

SIR: Express service rdued.

Buses:

Brooklyn: B2, B37, B26, B13, B83, BM1, X27/X28 Weekend could be cut.

Bronx: Bx4A, Bx13, Bx18, Bx20, Bx32, BxM6, BxM10 could be cut.

Manhattan: M1, M3, M8 weekend,  M10, M34A SBS, M50 weeekend, M66, M106 could be cut.

Queens: Q9, Q15A, Q19, Q20B, Q21, Q23, Q24, Q33, Q49,  Q55,, Q101, some express buses reduce.

Staten Island: S42, S66, 

LIRR:

Babylon Branch: No cuts

Hempstead Branch: Service reduction

Montauk Branch: no cuts.

Oyster Bay Branch: Service reduction

Pt. Jefferson Branch: Train service to/from New Hyde Park, Westbury might be reduced.

Pt. Washington Branch: Service reduction

Ronkonhoma Branch: Service reduction: Greenport weekend service discontinue except summer.

West Hempstead Branch: Cut

 

 

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2 hours ago, CenSin said:

you've just described the beginning of a death spiral.

  1. bad public transit, not enough road capacity
  2. work from home trends
  3. restaurants and other peripheral businesses go bust
  4. commercial properties decline, and tax revenues dry up making the MTA too poor to run service
  5. return to #1

Point # 2 was taught in Brooklyn schools 60 years ago. It's taken this pandemic to start this trend.

Point # 3 is happening right now in the NY Metro area and cross-country

While I don't see the draconian cuts coming to fruition as some posters do I do see the slow decline of mass transit here (especially) and other major metro areas. Being the cynic that I am and having schmoozed with some " in the know" (MTA) types I don't understand how some people fail to grasp that the agency was created to serve business concerns. Created to bring the Long Island commuters to Manhattan because the LIRR was bankrupt. The MNRR came about for the same reason. The only reason NYCTA was added to the mix was because the City of New York was broke. I read the local, national, and business pages daily as well as the threads on the forums and I get depressed in the subway posts. You are one of those who has a grasp of what's happening and there are a few others in the subway and surface threads. Meanwhile look at the subway proposals, random thoughts, fleet swap, or R179 threads. Maybe you can tell me what world some of my fellow posters are living in because I admit to being totally confused. Months ago I stated the Phase 2 of the SAS was a pipe dream, IMO. I'm reading that R211 cars are coming because the prototypes are being constructed and paid for. So what is that supposed to mean I ask myself. I'm old enough to remember shiny R11 cars, prototypes for the SAS. All contracts have an out. Business 101.

It's my personal opinion that the downsizing will begin and the end result is up to how business addresses their bottom line. Be prepared to pay more for less. Just remember that the politicians listen to those who fund their campaigns.  Carry on.

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19 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

They actually want to delay the start of East Side Access.

I could see the (M) just returning to Chambers St full time...

This I don’t agree with because Brooklyn residents have benefited tremendously from having access to Midtown. I can see the (M) service along Queens Blvd ending earlier than it does now. They already end (M) service earlier than what it used to ever since the (L) tunnel project ended. 
 

As far as subway service goes, I can see frequency reductions happening on most lines.

I can see the (B) being a rush hour only route along with the (W) is they don’t completely get cut. 
I can see the Rockaway Park shuttle getting eliminated in favor of just having folks take the Q53. Those stations see the lowest ridership on average anyways. 
 

I can see the (C) train ending earlier, along with the (3) and (5) trains as well. 

Can anyone see night time (6) service being cut to 125th? The (6) used to do this at one point in time before it was extended to Brooklyn Bridge at all times. 

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14 hours ago, Abba said:

(1) stays as is 8 minutes apart

(2) stays as it is 8 minutes apart.

(3) eliminated 

(4) Woodlawn -New Lots every 8 minutes local In Brooklyn 

(5) shuttle to 180 from dyre

(6) every 8 min same as now (6X) suspended 

(7) every 8 min like now 7X suspended 

 

(A) local for sure in Brooklyn maybe also in Manhattan no rockaway park service every 8 minutes combined on all lines 

(B) suspended 

(C) suspended 

(D) every 8 min like now 

(E)E regular every 8 minutes perhaps local In queens if (R) is send on second ave

(F) exactly the way service is now

(G) maybe cut back to 4th ave 

(H) no changes 

(J)every. 8 minutes same route 

(L)they may leave that one alone will see.

(M) probably Met to Chambers 

(N)N same every 8 min maybe local in Manhattan 


(Q) every 8 min same route as now

(R)R every 8 minutes like now ( maybe would end at 96/2) 

(S) Franklin remains but Times Square eliminated

(W) eliminated

(Z) eliminated 


that’s my thoughts 
 

Interborough Rapid Transit

The (3) train can just be suspended for a time, the (5) train just needs to default to its weekend Bowling Green service on weekdays making all Bronx Park stops on the original section (177 Street to Mott Avenue, present day 149 Street - Grand Concourse) with a quicker turnaround at the South Ferry loop (night and weekend service would be the Dyre Shuttle), reduce the Pelham Bay Park <6> Express to rush hours only while cutting the midday express (the Pelham Bay Park (6) Local would be running to East 177 Street midday weekdays when the express is not running at that period to help take the load off Pelham Bay Park turning all trains there), cut the Flushing <7> Express - its length ain't a problem for the Flushing (7) Local, and the 42nd Street :SS: shuttle would still be running as is using the September 1995 service plan with daytime and evening service.

Independent Railroad and Brooklyn Manhattan Transit

The Lefferts (A) train can turn local in Manhattan and Brooklyn while keeping the Far Rockaway :A: Express between the two aforementioned boroughs (Lefferts shuttle service as the backbone from Euclid would still exist, albeit re-designated as the (C) train) and the Beach 116 Street rush hour runs can be temporarily cut, the (B) train can be reduced to Harlem - 145 Street on weekdays with rush service to Bedford Park suspended for a time and it can become the express along Central Park, Sixth Avenue and Brighton to Brighton Beach, the double (CC) train can become the Lefferts shuttle starting from Euclid using the express tracks to terminate there, the (D) train can go local along the Grand Concourse for a time while also being the local along Central Park and Sixth Avenue, switching at Washington Square for service along the Manhattan Bridge to Coney Island, the (E) train can run as is with the rush hour reverse peak service to Union Turnpike being cut, the <F> train can say goodbye for some time as well as the (F) train's Kings Highway and Kensington Church Avenue short turns for some time, the double (GG) train needs to remain as is to Church Avenue (they cannot risk delaying the (F) train at Smith Ninth Streets or Fourth Avenue - Ninth Street), and the Rockaway Park (H) train can be the sole Broad Channel to Beach 116 Street service for a time with the summer extension temporarily cut.

The (J) train can simply become the double (JJ) train with locals running over the entirety of Nassau Street, the Williamsburg Bridge, Broadway and Jamaica Avenue with the (Z) train being a backbone service running express in the morning and afternoon peak from Broadway - Eastern Parkway to Chambers Street and the alternate run cut, the double (LL) train can remain as is with headways based on the time period, the (brownM) train can come back to Nassau running from Metropolitan Avenue - Middle Village to Essex Street weekdays and weekends, the (N) can run express via Manhattan Bridge from 96 Street to Stillwell, :QB: trains can continue to go to 96 Street, double (RR) trains can see their one trip to 96 Street being permanently cut, the Franklin (SS) shuttle has to stay because community leaders would come knocking like how they did the last time the New York City (NYCT) Transit proposed to completely cut it during the corporate era, and the (W) train would run as is weekdays from Ditmars to Whitehall with rush hour extensions to Gravesend 86 Street.

Edited by 4 via Mosholu
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8 hours ago, QM1to6Ave said:

If mass transit is so drastically reduced, it will force more businesses to remain (or become) remote-only for employees. If i have a choice between two jobs, and one does not require dealing with these immense reductions in travel opportunities, I am sure as hell taking the remote job. 

I'm thinking that way even with full service running lol ... I love waking up at 8:25am to log in at 8:30 lol

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20 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I'm thinking that way even with full service running lol ... I love waking up at 8:25am to log in at 8:30 lol

wtf? it takes 10 minutes to even brew a decent cup of coffee!

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

All this speculation on something that has NOT happened. Did anyone bother to read the proposals?

I think it’s endemic to this forum.

4 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

the end result is up to how business addresses their bottom line. Be prepared to pay more for less.

Anyone wanna place bets on which businesses survive the shake-up?

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9 hours ago, QM1to6Ave said:

If mass transit is so drastically reduced, it will force more businesses to remain (or become) remote-only for employees....

...or close its doors for good.

4 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

...I read the local, national, and business pages daily as well as the threads on the forums and I get depressed in the subway posts. You are one of those who has a grasp of what's happening and there are a few others in the subway and surface threads. Meanwhile look at the subway proposals, random thoughts, fleet swap, or R179 threads. Maybe you can tell me what world some of my fellow posters are living in because I admit to being totally confused.

Holding on to whatever'll be left (to enjoy) from the hobbyist aspect of things, I guess.....

With these speculations of what we as NY-ers would end up being left with or whatever, in a roundabout way, you can kinda tell who uses which line more often than the others - because it'd be the one that'd stand to be the least affected :lol:

One thing I don't look forward to though, is that dude on this forum (I love NY, or whatever the hell) constantly inquiring about 24/7 subway service....

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

All this speculation on something that has NOT happened. Did anyone bother to read the proposals?

Not to say I don't care outright, but at the same time, I'm not going to waste time stressing over what's going to happen with what bus & train line... My attitude with it all is basically one of defeatism; take it as it comes... Whatever's going to happen, is going to happen..... The inevitable.

4 minutes ago, CenSin said:

Anyone wanna place bets on which businesses survive the shake-up?

 2 red nickels of someone else's money on Joe's crab shack from up the street..... Spongebob would appreciate it.

Edited by B35 via Church
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